Preschool not having a PC TG

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree:

 

I admit, I'm not aware of what is insulting about tee pees or bonnets though.

 

If your desire is to raise cultural awareness then I would HOPE you would try to be accurate. If you are NOT willing to be accurate then you are lying about your intentions.

 

In this case tee pees imply a nomadic culture, as Plains Indians were. This makes it easier to stomach taking their lands. The Eastern Woodland Indians (the Wampanoag were among this group) were NOT nomadic, they lived in houses (wigwams, longhouses, etc) and showed the European settlers how to farm.

 

"Honoring" the Wampanoag by displaying war bonnets and tee pees is the equivalent of "honoring" the Chinese culture by having everyone wear a kimono, eating sushi and having the kids play at being a kamikaze.

 

Some links that might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampanoag

 

http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm

 

http://www.kstrom.net/isk/books/adult/thanksgi.html

 

http://www.criticalthink.info/Phil1301/lieshist.htm

 

http://www.purewatergazette.net/nativeamericanthanksgiving.htm

 

http://www.ewebtribe.com/NACulture/articles/thanksgiving.html

[Laurie]

 

 

 

Class parties for holidays no longer exist and the only religious holidays the kids learn about are the ones that are not Christian.

 

-- and I would like even more a blend of old and new --

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like this, too. I think it's important to teach things that are historically accurate. It's also important to learn about a variety of traditions/celebrations, but I think in SOME cases the pendulum may have swung too far in that direction and in OTHER cases not far enough.

 

We need to find more common ground , and it would be great if that could be freedom/love of country...and about trying to learn from the past (the good and the bad)to build a better future. Of course, during a presidential election year we see how even talk of patriotism can become divisive! Still, I think it's our best hope. It's just too bad that the Fourth of July is during summer vacation!

[Mrs Mungo]

Well, it is not only race that should be free from prejudice, but gender, faith, and nationality. I guess I didn't see the point in exclaiming that Christianity is not a race. However, I percieved the person who said this as an unwilling participant in this thread and I did not want to antagonize her by responding. I am still intrigued as to why Christians "deserve" prejudice. I am also waiting to see who is going to step up and spare my feelings by forgoing Christmas this year, a holiday which is sacred to me and my faith.

 

Religion doesn't belong in the public schools, that's the point of exclaiming Christianity is not a race. Winter celebrations were in place long before Christians came along. Early Christians co-opted MANY of those traditions for themselves to pull in their pagan neighbors and/or celebrate along with their pagan neighbors.

 

http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

 

I'm editing to remove the second link because I only read halfway through it before linking. When I went back to read more completely I realized it was kind of extremist in nature.

 

So, why should people give up celebrating Yule just because early Christians decided they would make it all about Jesus and his birth?

[Slartibartfast]

How are NAs being prejudice at Christians that they would deserve a backlash anyways??

 

Precisely how is that even applicable to the thread?

[Lovedtodeath]

Religion doesn't belong in the public schools, that's the point of exclaiming Christianity is not a race. Winter celebrations were in place long before Christians came along. Early Christians co-opted MANY of those traditions for themselves to pull in their pagan neighbors and/or celebrate along with their pagan neighbors.

 

http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

 

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

 

So, why should people give up celebrating Yule just because early Christians decided they would make it all about Jesus and his birth?

 

 

Aha! That last statement is so true! Most of the traditions involved with Christmas were borrowed from pagans to begin with.

 

But, concerning your first point, aren't other celebrations also religious in nature? Either they are celebrated as a religious festival of some sort, or they started out that way? Why is it acceptable to celebrate Kwanzaa and Yule in a PS, but not Christmas?

 

And if we want to get nit-picky about what should belong in this thread... I don't believe this thread started out about Public Schools at all. It was describing a TG celebration at a Preschool, which I had assumed was privately operated.

[Lovedtodeath]

How are NAs being prejudice at Christians that they would deserve a backlash anyways??

 

Precisely how is that even applicable to the thread?

 

This thread has deviated into separate topics several times. One topic was how being Politically Correct can get out of hand and discriminate against the majority, and as an example, Christians.

[Mrs Mungo]

Aha! That last statement is so true! Most of the traditions involved with Christmas were borrowed from pagans to begin with.

 

But, concerning your first point, aren't other celebrations also religious in nature? Either they are celebrated as a religious festival of some sort, or they started out that way? Why is it acceptable to celebrate Kwanzaa and Yule in a PS, but not Christmas?

 

A celebration of winter without religious implications one way or another is simply that-a secular midwinter celebration. Kwanzaa isn't a religious celebration at all, it's strictly cultural in nature.

[jonesloonybin]

No, I would not consider that to be a very charitable or sensitive attitude. But I also don't think we can assume this is the attitude at the preschool.

 

 

 

There are a lot of things that I could find hurtful, if I chose. It hurts me that people don't believe as I do, when I feel so strongly that it is the truth. It also hurts me that people superficially observe the same holidays that are so meaningful to me, and denigrate what I see as their true meaning. So, here is your challenge: If you want to do something that would be sensitive to my beliefs, stop celebrating Christmas unless you are celebrating Christ ;)

 

For that matter, whom do you think the Pilgrims were thanking?

 

Nobody....because they were not pilgrims. They called themselves “Saints" Some of the settlers were “Puritans,†dissidents but not separatists who wanted to “purify†the Church.

 

In reality they were invading an already occupied land.

 

And Christmas as a holiday did not begin to celebrate the birth of christ. It is in fact a mixture of various other cultures celebrations.

[jonesloonybin]

Religion doesn't belong in the public schools, that's the point of exclaiming Christianity is not a race. Winter celebrations were in place long before Christians came along. Early Christians co-opted MANY of those traditions for themselves to pull in their pagan neighbors and/or celebrate along with their pagan neighbors.

 

http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

 

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

 

So, why should people give up celebrating Yule just because early Christians decided they would make it all about Jesus and his birth?

 

:iagree:

 

I did not read this before my post...

[Slartibartfast]

This thread has deviated into separate topics several times. One topic was how being Politically Correct can get out of hand and discriminate against the majority, and as an example, Christians.

 

Well, as far as I am aware NAs didn't discriminate against the pilgrims due to their religion. Their lying, land-stealing and smallpox-giving was far more of a problem and those are not Christian attributes. :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovedtodeath

This thread has deviated into separate topics several times. One topic was how being Politically Correct can get out of hand and discriminate against the majority, and as an example, Christians.

 

 

 

Well, as far as I am aware NAs didn't discriminate against the pilgrims due to their religion. Their lying, land-stealing and smallpox-giving was far more of a problem and those are not Christian attributes. :lol:

 

I was not talking about the original issue that involved NAs at all when discrimination against Christians was brought up. I am pretty sure anyone else in that discussion was not either. Notice that I stated the thread had deviated into separate issues.

[Slartibartfast]

Um..yes it was commentary on people sticking to the topic.

 

I am NA. I have sat on my tribe's board of directors for four years.

[Chris in VA]

Sis and Mrs. M,

Do you think you could help me craft a letter or at least some "talking points" that I can take to my boss? Keeping in mind that I have only been at this job 1 month, and that they are truly not trying to hurt anyone but seem "ignorant" of the hurt a stereotypical depiction of NA could cause (either directly or by contributing to the miseducation of the kiddos), could you help me present a case for something appropriate? Would it be ok (in your view--which is what I want to honor) to cook some foods or perhaps make a more realistic/correct dwelling? You can pm or email me, if you want. I would really appreciate your pov and your help.

[PiCO]

As a Native American who is from a woodland tribe (my grandmother was chief of our tribe) I find it offensive in the extreme when people put tipis or warbonnets on display to indicate "being Indian" for the purposes of Thanksgiving. If my child were in that preschool I would probably be offended enough to pull them out of the school.

 

 

I, too, and an Native American from a woodland tribe. I agree with your statements. I think it's inconsiderate to not even google "1st Thanksgiving" or somesuch to get a minimum amount of information. It's also a disservice to the students. They will have just as much fun "playing Pilgrims & Indians" if they're playing the correct type of tribe.

 

I think people think of Plains Indians first because they were the ones who survived the longest. East coast natives succumbed to small pox, syphilis and the like or moved west (or assimilated into white culture) pretty quickly.

[Mrs Mungo]

Sis and Mrs. M,

Do you think you could help me craft a letter or at least some "talking points" that I can take to my boss? Keeping in mind that I have only been at this job 1 month, and that they are truly not trying to hurt anyone but seem "ignorant" of the hurt a stereotypical depiction of NA could cause (either directly or by contributing to the miseducation of the kiddos), could you help me present a case for something appropriate? Would it be ok (in your view--which is what I want to honor) to cook some foods or perhaps make a more realistic/correct dwelling? You can pm or email me, if you want. I would really appreciate your pov and your help.

 

I would honestly just say "I think it's great to teach kids about the first Thanksgiving but as educators I think it would be wise to be accurate in our teachings with regard to the Native American tribes who lived in the area." If necessary use the "we wouldn't teach about China by showing the kids sushi or kimonos" line of thought.

 

I actually experienced something like this in real life. I counter-balanced it by providing coloring sheets with Wampanoag clothing and homes. I also designed a quiz for the adults with regard to early US colonists (nobody came close to passing it).

 

Here are some links that may help you get started:

http://www.teachervision.fen.com/native-americans/lesson-plan/3358.html

 

http://plimoth.org/education/teachers/

 

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/pages/623

 

http://web.ccsd.k12.wy.us/techcurr/Social%20Studies/05/0101underpil.html

 

and specifically:

http://web.ccsd.k12.wy.us/techcurr/Social%20Studies/05/0101nacostum.html

 

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/14/ba/6b.pdf

 

http://members.aol.com/calebj/thanksgiving.html

 

Making a game with foods we often eat at Thanksgiving and foods that would have been found at the "first Thanksgiving" would be interesting. That last link has some good info in that regard.

 

Hope this helps!

[Lovedtodeath]

I understand that this thread was originally about the portrayal of Native Americans, but it can still serve that purpose with the other topics interspersed. As a general rule, these forums are very tolerant of "thread-jacking" on most topics. ;) Since the following topics have already been brought up, I would like to add my viewpoint.

 

I hear and understand the Christians who have expressed pain at the same thing in our society and although I personally think some of it is deserved, I don't allow my kids to make fun of Xtians either. It hurts. It's not right. So we don't do it. End of story.

Christendom as a group has comitted terrible atrocities and has been incredibly judgemental and hypocritical many times. It has turned many people away from God as a result. But there are so many different types of Christians that this in no way applies to all of them. Most of the actions that would make this "deserved" are not participated in by the majority, and/or are things that occurred in the distant past. The diversity of Christians brings me to my next point. I do not celebrate holidays that the early church adopted from pagan religious celebrations.

 

School, back when I was a kid, was fun. I'm 52, so you get the drift of how long ago that was. We had Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, and other holiday celebrations in class, complete with parties at which were served candy, cakes, and soda.

 

Class parties for holidays no longer exist.

 

Our school has a fall party, a spring party and a winter party. When DD attended K for a short time I was very grateful that she was able to enjoy the parties.

 

Where I live, they do Christmas in school but do fun things like Santa and snowmen, none of the religious stuff. They also do Easter eggs and bunnies, and kids do wear costumes to school but they have to fit guidelines as to not interfere with their school day, so many kids don't wear their actual costume, but just dress up kind of fun or funny.

 

Santa Claus is religious as are the traditions involving bunnies and eggs. These are all adopted from pagan ritual of some sort or another. The celebration of Halloween is against the beliefs of many in whatever form it takes.

A celebration of winter without religious implications one way or another is simply that-a secular midwinter celebration. Kwanzaa isn't a religious celebration at all, it's strictly cultural in nature.

 

Thanks for the comment about Kwanzaa. I had never researched it before. I enjoyed learning about it.

 

And like I said, it was wonderful for DD to have parties that she was able to participate in with a clear consciense. I don't see how calling it a seasonal party and leaving out religious overtones makes it less fun for the kids.

[Chris in VA]

Actually, they would be thrilled to have someone show us how to make sushi or bring in a family kimono--but even that feels different than what is going to happen. They actually call it the Pow-Wow.

 

Yeah, wow, alright.

 

Anyway, thanks for helping. I may just have to be out that week. It's only 2 days, anyway. I'll be in charge of art in our room, and we'll just make turkeys.

[beansprouts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovedtodeath

This thread has deviated into separate topics several times. One topic was how being Politically Correct can get out of hand and discriminate against the majority, and as an example, Christians.

 

 

 

 

 

I was not talking about the original issue that involved NAs at all when discrimination against Christians was brought up. I am pretty sure anyone else in that discussion was not either. Notice that I stated the thread had deviated into separate issues.

 

What she said. I actually could go all the way back, retrace my steps and probably tie it all together, but I am too tired for that tonight. :tongue_smilie:

[Slartibartfast]

Sis and Mrs. M,

Do you think you could help me craft a letter or at least some "talking points" that I can take to my boss? Keeping in mind that I have only been at this job 1 month, and that they are truly not trying to hurt anyone but seem "ignorant" of the hurt a stereotypical depiction of NA could cause (either directly or by contributing to the miseducation of the kiddos), could you help me present a case for something appropriate? Would it be ok (in your view--which is what I want to honor) to cook some foods or perhaps make a more realistic/correct dwelling? You can pm or email me, if you want. I would really appreciate your pov and your help.

 

That plimoth site Mrs. M linked looks AMAZING.

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually, they would be thrilled to have someone show us how to make sushi or bring in a family kimono--but even that feels different than what is going to happen. They actually call it the Pow-Wow.

 

Not to belabor the point and I do think your heart is in the right place but kimonos and sushi are from Japan and therefore wouldn't work as a study on China. ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

Question for the NAs: I don't have specifics because I lost the original thread, so bear with me. There is a craft kit (or book) that is used to study NA culture. In this book, children engage in sand painting (which is considered sacred if I remember correctly) and they make dolls that are part of a sacred ritual as well (again, I am a bit fuzzy on the finer points, but thought one of you would know what I mean.) Would you see a problem in a child engaging in these activities? If I find the original thread I will pass your viewpoint along. TIA

[Jenny in Florida]

I am also waiting to see who is going to step up and spare my feelings by forgoing Christmas this year, a holiday which is sacred to me and my faith.

 

But, you see, it's sacred to me, too, for entirely different reasons.

 

What I will promise not to do is to come to your church and play pretend. I promise not to dress up like your holy figure in the name of having a good time, even if I get a few of the "unimportant" details wrong, like maybe getting him confused with the Buddha or Moses or something trivial like that. And I promise not to teach my children to do so, either.

 

What I will do is observe my traditions and my worship in my home and my church and stay out of your way and let you do the same.

 

In a diverse and multicultural society, I'm afraid that's the best we're going to be able to do.

[Jenny in Florida]

Why is it acceptable to celebrate Kwanzaa and Yule in a PS, but not Christmas?

 

Well, and I'm trying to say this as gently as I can so as not to fan any flames, here, actually Kwanzaa is not and never was a religious holiday. As I recall, it was invented in the 1960s quite specifically as a cultural celebration, not a religious one.

 

http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml

 

Edited to add: Sorry. I posted this before I saw that someone else had already made the point.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, and I'm trying to say this as gently as I can so as not to fan any flames, here, actually Kwanzaa is not and never was a religious holiday. As I recall, it was invented in the 1960s quite specifically as a cultural celebration, not a religious one.

 

http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml

 

Edited to add: Sorry. I posted this before I saw that someone else had already made the point.

 

No problem. Thanks for the link. Kwanzaa is the best holiday I have seen so far, really cool.

[Slartibartfast]

Question for the NAs: I don't have specifics because I lost the original thread, so bear with me. There is a craft kit (or book) that is used to study NA culture. In this book, children engage in sand painting (which is considered sacred if I remember correctly) and they make dolls that are part of a sacred ritual as well (again, I am a bit fuzzy on the finer points, but thought one of you would know what I mean.) Would you see a problem in a child engaging in these activities? If I find the original thread I will pass your viewpoint along. TIA

 

What kind of doll is it?

 

Sand painting is a Dine thing. My tribe is North Eastern woodland, they are very different and I wouldn't be able to tell much about them.

 

Sand painting is used in some of their ceremonies. but sandpainting isn't limited to NAs alone. It is also done by Buddists

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2186/2458033071_3521aa9c88.jpg?v=0

 

http://www.8thfire.net/images/WhirlingRainbow.jpg

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks for trying to answer... I will try to find the original thread.

[beansprouts]

But, you see, it's sacred to me, too, for entirely different reasons.

 

What I will promise not to do is to come to your church and play pretend. I promise not to dress up like your holy figure in the name of having a good time, even if I get a few of the "unimportant" details wrong, like maybe getting him confused with the Buddha or Moses or something trivial like that. And I promise not to teach my children to do so, either.

 

What I will do is observe my traditions and my worship in my home and my church and stay out of your way and let you do the same.

 

In a diverse and multicultural society, I'm afraid that's the best we're going to be able to do.

 

My guess is that you do not also use the name of Christ to identify your holiday, right?

 

I need to go back several pages and dig up the right quotes, and right now my kids are demanding my attention. I only meant to sit for a few minutes while I suck down a quick cup of coffee before school. I will try this again at lunch break. ;)

 

Are you getting tired of my posts that promise to post later?? :lol:

[Jenny in Florida]

My guess is that you do not also use the name of Christ to identify your holiday, right?

 

Actually, I/we do. For me, that holiday is a celebration of what I find meaningful in the story of his life. It's quite likely not the same thing you celebrate, but, as I said, I won't get in your way if you don't get in mine.

[justLisa]

School, back when I was a kid, was fun. I'm 52, so you get the drift of how long ago that was. We had Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, and other holiday celebrations in class, complete with parties at which were served candy, cakes, and soda.

 

None of these things happens in the schools around here any more. Christmas vacation is now winter vacation, and the kids learn about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa ONLY. Christmas songs aren't sung at the school's winter concert at, coincidentally, Christmastime. The kids don't get to wear their costumes to school on Halloween and do other fun Halloween-related stuff. Easter isn't mentioned, but the kids do learn about Passover. They also learn about Ramadan.

 

The one thing the kids did do in Kindergarten was have a "feast" at which half wore Indian headbands with construction paper feathers, and the other half wore Pilgrim hats. That didn't bother me a bit. I figure if I want to, I can be PC about Indians because my Dad was 1/4 Pawnee. Most of the people I see who hop on the Indian bandwagon (in New England) don't look like they have one drop of Indian blood in them.

 

Class parties for holidays no longer exist and the only religious holidays the kids learn about are the ones that are not Christian.

 

I liked the old way better -- and I would like even more a blend of old and new -- but I feel sorry for kids today that the things we looked forward to and enjoyed immensely have been abolished. The vast majority of what is now verboten is related to Christianity; other religions are still featured in our schools.

 

P.S. Yes, I am aware that the demographics of the U.S. have changed significantly in the intervening years.

 

RC

 

:ph34r: :biggrinjester: Sorry this is my first time on this new board and I like those smileys. Though I'm not sure what that first one is supposed to be, I don't have my glasses on.

 

This is exactly what I think about it. It's stupid in fact. I think it's great that kids can learn about and celebrate all relgions, but why the heck can't they just have a Christmas party? They can have a Kwansa and Hanukkah party too. PC obsession just steels the fun out of everything. Kids don't see prejudice and intolerance until we give it to them.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think making war bonnets and tipis to "teach" about a tribe that used neither is more than useless. I do believe it is harmful. The Native Americans were not and *are* not a homogenous group. Treating them as all of the same group is problematic on two levels. It's like celebrating St. Patrick's Day by having the kids dress as Vikings. It's wrong historically and it's wrong because it implies that all Native Americans live that way. This is why so many people don't understand how complex some societies in the "New World" were in the pre-Columbian times.

 

GAH! Did I already comment on this back in 2008? Whoops, didn't realize it was an old thread.

[Parrothead]

Ack! This thread is 2 years old.

[Chris in VA]

Actually it's 4 years old.

 

And they are still having the Pow-Wow at school.

 

I quit after the first year. ;)

[Chris in VA]

Actually it's 4 years old.

 

And they are still having the Pow-Wow at school.

 

I quit after the first year. ;)

[Chris in VA]

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