Lively Art of Writing instead of EE

[Murrayshire]

Thinking about writing for my rising 8th grader.
I'd like for her to be ready in 9th to move right into WttW & EIL.

She doesn't like the looks of EE although it might suit her well.
Could Lively Art of Writing with the workbook take place of Elegant Essay?
Would it prepare her for WttW or EIL?

FYI: She has completed WWE 1-2, IEW Themes Medieval & Narnia, SWI-B, and has completed the first half of SWICC-B.

Thanks!

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm not familiar with all the programs you mentioned, but I will say that we found LAoW to be excellent preparation for actually writing essays.  It really explains, in a clear way, what an essay is, what the goal is, and how to go about meeting that goal. After that, it's mostly practice, and learning how to use different types of essays for different purposes. It gives you a great foundation, especially if you do the exercises in the free workbook that Quark has posted.  Those are really worth doing! It makes you practice all the steps & techniques, not just read about them.

[Roadrunner]

I have LAoW sitting on my shelf. Would you recommend completing WWS series before attempting it? 

[crazyforlatin]

I was just wondering about WWS and LAoW combo. Definitely after WWS1 but after WWS3 seems too late? So it should be placed somewhere, just not sure where, lol.

[Roadrunner]

I was just wondering about WWS and LAoW combo. Definitely after WWS1 but after WWS3 seems too late? So it should be placed somewhere, just not sure where, lol.

I thought WWS doesn't teach an essay at all.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I don't think you have to complete all 3 levels of WWS before you do LAoW.  Well, I know you don't!  What you should keep in mind is don't start LAoW till your student is ready to do thesis-driven, original writing.  For some students that will be high school. For others it will be sooner.  For my dd it was perfect in 7th grade, and sooner would have been too soon.  (whereas she did WWS 1 in 5th grade, and could have done WWS 2 in 6th had we decided to stick with that program).

 

So I guess what I'm getting at is that a student can be ready for WWS before they are ready for LAoW, but it is not necessary to complete WWS before you do LAoW.  Clear as mud?

 

They are really different, with different purposes.  WWS is parts-to-whole, and isn't attempting to teach students to develop and support a thesis (at least not in the first two levels).  LAoW is whole-to-parts, it's all about the rhetorical purpose, developing and supporting a thesis, and how to structure an essay so that it does this.  So in that sense they are complementary rather than redundant.

 

If you are planning on using both, I'd probably do WWS first, at least some part of it, and save LAoW for when your student is ready to do original, thesis-driven writing. But it may be the case that they appeal to very different kinds of students.  My dd found WWS to be a slog, but loved LAoW, for example.  

 

I'm being careful not to proscribe ages/grades, because every kid's writing develops on their own schedule.  Roadrunner, I know your kids are advanced writers, and I can't remember what grades they are in now. I will say that Shannon is an advanced writer, too, and I thought 7th grade was perfect for her.  Earlier would have been too soon.

[Murrayshire]

I like reading all the responses..... Thanks for replying!

 

Anyone else want to chime in about my OP?

🙂

[Roadrunner]

I have not used but read TLAoW. Just looking at the Elegant Essay TOC, I would think that TLAoW would accomplish the same thing as the Elegant Essay does. My only reservation with TLAoW was the fact that it's a bit outdated in terms of topics, but otherwise extremely clear and well organized. 

There has got to be somebody out here who has used both to compare. I would also love to read the comparison. 

 

My DS is in fifth and while he is a very eager writer, but I wouldn't call him advanced. He produces a lot, but still age appropriate writing. We were also thinking that grade 7 or 8 would provide the type of maturity needed to really produce a thesis based writing. He has surprisingly  greatly enjoyed WWS1 this year, especially longer assignments in the second half of the book. Loved the literary analysis section as well. 

[RootAnn]

I used EE with my dd#1 (reluctant writer) in 8th grade. I found it difficult to teach because the teacher really needs her own student book. The TM doesn't have the same things the student book had. So, prepping for class & teaching the essay forms were not open-and-go. She really didn't grow as a writer at all. I followed the format of EE, but probably should have built in several examples of each type of essay that was introduced and spread it over a year instead of doing it in a semester. It seemed to be built a lot more for a group class vs. a one-kid-homeschool situation. 

 

I haven't used LAoW although I own it. I don't think it covers as many types of essays as EE does. 

 

Lewlma did a thread several years back evaluating several writing programs. It makes interesting reading. Later, she compared WWS to LTOW. Neither of these specifically cover the two you mention, but you might find them interesting from a big picture perspective. Good luck!

[Murrayshire]

Thank you ladies...... Dd is fair at writing. I think she would be better if her attitude about it was positive.

I definitely think she'll be ready for essay & lit analysis for 8th, but need to find something that has an appeal to her.

 

I've been looking at the online Bravewriter classes, too. We may try one out and see where that takes us, though it is a bit pricey for just writing.

 

I'll check out those threads! Thanks!

[MamaSprout]

I like Lively Art. It really is a good little book. It's also very inexpensive and can be done in a semester. I've used it at co-op a couple of times with ages 11- 17 and been happy with the results.

 

I looked at EE. It felt more fiddly or something. I plan to do WttW next with my dd and some friends. It looks like a good transition.

[lisabees]

Thank you, Rose, for explaining when a student is read for LAOW.

 

I have a 7th grader who isn't quite ready and a 10th grader who may be beyond ready.

 

How long does it take to complete?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Shannon worked through LAoW (with the workbook) Oct-March of 7th grade. So not a whole year for sure, it's doable in a semester.  She was putting it into practice learning to write essays for the Big History Project, concurrently.

 

A great followup to LAoW is Writing With a Thesis.  We're 2 chapters away from finishing it. It explores all the different kinds of essays, with a clear focus on The Persuasive Principle - the purpose of the piece - throughout.  I adore this book, it's the best thing we've used for writing. But it's definitely at the advance jr. high/high school level.

 

Shannon did BW's Kidswrite Intermediate class at the beginning of this year.  Even though she already knew how to write an essay, the class was very helpful.  It really focuses on thinking behind the essay, the steps you need to take to generate a good thesis, and find good supporting points, and organize them well. I think she will do the Expository Essay class, or work through the 2nd half of Help for High School on her own, in the spring as soon as we finish WWaT.

 

We struggled to find a good fit for writing instruction from 4th-6th grade. But I'm absolutely delighted with what we've done so far, and with the results. My dd has become a strong writer and has preserved and developed her own unique style and voice, as well as continuing to love writing.  Well, she doesn't love writing essays, but she does it competently.  She is passionate about story writing.

 

ETA: for this kind of a kid - one who loves to write and definitely has her own voice - I think a more big-picture, whole-to-parts, Bravewriter type approach works better than the more formulaic, parts-to-whole, follow the steps, little-engineer style writing program.  Every kid is different, and different programs work for different kids.

 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Chrysalis Academy

[lisabees]

Rose - What do you do to encourage your dd's story writing?

 

Writing with a Thesis came in the mail the other day.  Looks perfect for my tenth grader.  I am about to start an intensive study on writing with her.  Up until now, I have been easy on her, since it is her first year home.  I have Help for High School and trying to develop a plan, so I don't have to use the online classes.  Ack.

 

Speaking of WWaT - Is there a similar book on a middle school level?  Breakfast on Mars is filled with fun essays.  I'd like a variety.  

 

Sorry if this is derailing the thread, OP!

[SparklyUnicorn]

We could not stand Lively Art of Writing.  Boring.  The examples and themes are extremely dated.  Stuff like why ladies like fine silverware.  zzzzzz  I guess I lack the imagination to come up with my own writing assignments. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

We could not stand Lively Art of Writing.  Boring.  The examples and themes are extremely dated.  Stuff like why ladies like fine silverware.  zzzzzz  I guess I lack the imagination to come up with my own writing assignments. 

 

It's funny, people say that a lot, but it didn't bother dd at all. She just came up with her own topics to write about.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rose - What do you do to encourage your dd's story writing?

 

Writing with a Thesis came in the mail the other day.  Looks perfect for my tenth grader.  I am about to start an intensive study on writing with her.  Up until now, I have been easy on her, since it is her first year home.  I have Help for High School and trying to develop a plan, so I don't have to use the online classes.  Ack.

 

Speaking of WWaT - Is there a similar book on a middle school level?  Breakfast on Mars is filled with fun essays.  I'd like a variety.  

 

Sorry if this is derailing the thread, OP!

 

Um, absolutely nothing?  :lol:

 

Seriously, I'm with SWB on this - if a kid has stories inside them, you can't keep them in. If they don't, you can't make them write stories.  I feel like the "Creative Writing" things I tried with dd backfired more than anything else, it turned something fun and creative into a school chore.  We tried The Creative Writer and some other books, and dd found them dry and boring.  So I backed off, and she started writing on her own again. Really, the biggest thing that helped was becoming a competent typist.

 

I mean, we did all the normal things - dd is a voracious reader, and we read the same books and talk about them all the time. We talk about what makes stories good, what we like and don't like in characters, plot twists that work for us or make us mad, stuff like that.  She is also an actor, so she studies the art of creating story through voice and face and words and gestures.  But it comes from inside her, it hasn't been imposed because of anything I've done.

 

Now that she's writing, I definitely direct her toward resources that can help her develop her craft.  She likes the book Adventures in Fantasy and has been reading through it this year as she works on various novels.  But it isn't an assignment, it's a resource I've provided and she can use or not as she sees fit. If she wants, I will sign her up for BW's Fiction classes in the future, or other things like that.  I guess you can say we unschool creative writing - it's all kid-directed.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's funny, people say that a lot, but it didn't bother dd at all. She just came up with her own topics to write about.

 

My kid tends to go a little too crazy when coming up with his own topics.  He chooses topics that are too wide open. 

[lisabees]

Thanks Rose.  I knew what you were going to say!

 

My son used Adventures in Fantasy a few years ago.  We liked it.   

 

ETA:  Deleted a random topic.

Edited January 27, 2016 by lisabees

[lisabees]

OP - I am not familiar with anything in your list, except for LAoW.  

 

LAoW is free and can be done fairly quickly.  You have nothing to lose!  Just allow her to change the topics.

 

I also have a rising 8th grader and plan to use it for her.

Edited January 27, 2016 by lisabees

[Haiku]

My kid tends to go a little too crazy when coming up with his own topics.  He chooses topics that are too wide open. 

 

That's where you can step in and help him narrow the focus. It's an extremely valuable skill for young writers to learn.

 

For example, at the beginning of 8th grade, my dd decided that she would write her 8th grade history paper on "how Native American culture has changed from pre-Columbian times to the present." I pointed out that if you took into account all the topics that encompasses, from tribal organization to religious practices to legal recognition to educational approaches to clothing to ... it would be a book, not a research paper. I asked her what, specifically, she was interested in about the changing of culture. We talked about it over the course of several days, and she decided that she was interested in how contact with Europeans (and specifically, Americans) influenced how the Cherokee made decisions about their future that lead to a tribal schism and the Trail of Tears. That's a much more manageable topic.

 

It's a process to learn how to extract a specific focus from a broad topic.

[J-rap]

I can't quite compare because I didn't use the Elegant Essay except for the first few lessons.  I hadn't heard of EE with my older kids (maybe it wasn't out yet), and we used The Lively Art of Writing.  I really liked it.  It was a very different type of curriculum for me to use, and probably if I didn't have a good background in writing I wouldn't have been as comfortable using it.  (Mostly because it didn't have cute workbooks to go along with it.)  But I found it to present essay writing very logically, in a way that was easy-to-understand.

 

With my younger two, we used a bit of Elegant Essay (since I love trying new things and I tend to love workbooks!), but I don't know, it just wasn't a good match for us (though in all honesty I can't quite remember why).  Maybe part of it was that I was at a different place in my teaching. 

[lisabees]

That's where you can step in and help him narrow the focus. It's an extremely valuable skill for young writers to learn.

 

For example, at the beginning of 8th grade, my dd decided that she would write her 8th grade history paper on "how Native American culture has changed from pre-Columbian times to the present." I pointed out that if you took into account all the topics that encompasses, from tribal organization to religious practices to legal recognition to educational approaches to clothing to ... it would be a book, not a research paper. I asked her what, specifically, she was interested in about the changing of culture. We talked about it over the course of several days, and she decided that she was interested in how contact with Europeans (and specifically, Americans) influenced how the Cherokee made decisions about their future that lead to a tribal schism and the Trail of Tears. That's a much more manageable topic.

 

It's a process to learn how to extract a specific focus from a broad topic.

 

I agree with you, Tara.

 

I am sitting here with dd, as she completes an exercise in Maxwell's Writing in English.  There is nothing better than reading great authors and discussing purpose in their writing and in one's own writing.  Then, you can talk about your plan to get there.

 

I know some won't like to hear it, but lots of discussion is key!  :thumbup1:

[SeaConquest]

Thank you for this discussion. How does the Lost Tools of Writing book fit into the WWS, LAoW, WWaT sequence, if at all? After WWaT, do you plan to do something like a WTMA Rhetoric I or Blue Tent Honors English class? I am still so confused about writing.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thank you for this discussion. How does the Lost Tools of Writing book fit into the WWS, LAoW, WWaT sequence, if at all? After WWaT, do you plan to do something like a WTMA Rhetoric I or Blue Tent Honors English class? I am still so confused about writing.

 

Some people really like LToW. There have been a few discussions about it on the High School board recently.  I think dereksurfs is using it with his son, and I know that 1togo uses it.  My objection when I looked at an earlier version was that it looked like an unholy mess to use! Very chaotic, disorganized, and hard to follow. My understanding it that recent revisions have made it much more user friendly, and I've read good things about it recently. I just don't think we need it at this point, I think we've found other ways to do what it offers, but I think it's definitely worth looking at.

 

After WwaT, we will do writing the way that SWB describes in her High School writing lectures: part Rhetoric self-study, and part paper writing across the curriculum. We will go through A Rulebook for Arguments this spring, and then next up (9th grade) we will use They Say/I Say, and a rhetoric book called Reading the Environment (we're doing Environmental Science next year, so it's a nice fit).  We may do some additional Bravewriter classes.  I really like the combination of 6 week classes with self-study. This lets us have the best of both worlds: writing for an outside instructor without having to commit the entire year to a class which may or may not prove to be a good fit.

 

In future years of high school we may use all or part of the following for Rhetoric self-study:

Common Threads

The New Oxford Guide to Writing

Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition

[lisabees]

I used LToW 5 years ago.  It was unwieldy (!), but I really enjoyed the conversations and outcome. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

I agree with you, Tara.

 

I am sitting here with dd, as she completes an exercise in Maxwell's Writing in English. There is nothing better than reading great authors and discussing purpose in their writing and in one's own writing. Then, you can talk about your plan to get there.

 

I know some won't like to hear it, but lots of discussion is key! :thumbup1:

Did dd use School Composition before Writing in English? How old is dd who is using School Composition now? I really want to use these for my younger son.

[lisabees]

Did dd use School Composition before Writing in English? How old is dd who is using School Composition now? I really want to use these for my younger son.

 

DD is 12 and in 7th grade.  Oops!  She just turned 13 last week.  I keep forgetting!

 

We did use a good chunk of School Composition before Writing in English.  I cannot express how superior this book is.  There is so much discussion. So much clear instruction and analysis in addition to writing.

 

Your younger son is 11?  He should be fine.

 

Do realize that the excerpts Maxwell uses are mainly based on classics - expect difficult vocabulary etc.  My dd just started homeschooling this year, so she wasn't quite used to such heavy doses of it, but has quickly adapted.

 

Best wishes.