How far does one really need to go in grammar?

[HappyDoopy]

This year my older two girls, ages 11 & 13, started R&S English 8 & 6, respectively. This is our first year with R&S. We finished FLL4 a couple of years ago, and haven't done a lot with grammar since then. Well, we realized very quickly that R&S 8 was way over the 13 yo's head (and mine too! ack!). She's now in grammar-limbo (having stopped R&S in Oct/Nov). My 11 yo is appropriately challenged in R&S 6. 

 

I'm concerned/curious now for a couple of reasons: 

 

1. Grammar has always been a very easy subject for my girls. The struggle in R&S 8 felt like a big blow to my 13 yo ~ since there are so many other "really difficult" things about being 13, having a subject that's always been a "win" turn into a "fail" just kinda stinks. In large part, it's my fault -  I should've done more homework, to see that R&S would be so different/difficult {poor first-born guinea pig!} 

 

2. While I appreciate how in-depth and thorough R&S is, I wonder if it's a little overkill? Book 6 is challenging, but reasonably so. I haven't looked at book 7 yet. Book 8 felt altogether over-the-top. Even my husband - who has a PhD and teaches at a private university - didn't understand much past the first few chapters. Is learning grammar THAT in-depth really necessary? Am I so old that I can't remember ever having done grammar in such depth? Or is it not really as crazy-advanced as I feel like it is, and it's really perfectly reasonable and normal expectations for middle school? And if so, what grammar are they doing in (gasp) high school?? Clearly (I see now) it's a curriculum where you can't just jump into a higher level without having progressed through the lower levels first. But it still feels like a lot more grammar than necessary at this level. Thoughts? 

 

3. At this point, do you think I should have the 13 yo start in book 6, and maybe skip/progress quickly through the parts she already knows well? Or should we just throw in the R&S towel for her, and pick up something else altogether? (& if so, what?)

 

4. I have two more kids in the wings ... I'm determined to get everything right with them (haha, I wish!). To avoid repeating this scenario in a few years, is it best to begin R&S directly after FLL4? And if so, what R&S level? 5? 6? Depends of what age/grade level they are at that point?

 

TIA!

 

 

Edited January 10, 2016 by HappyDoopy

[Mama Geek]

Now you have me curious, what are the topics that are that advanced?  My dd is really young still so I am just going on my memory from school 25 or 30 years ago.  I haven't decided over the long run what to do for grammar yet.

[LinRTX]

What topics do you consider advanced? I would have the 13yo do R&S English 6. The books for grade 7 and 8 mostly repeat 6 and add just a little to the topics. It may be all you want to do.

[waa510]

Typically people just go into Rod and Staff 5 after FLL4. I've done that with my oldest (after detouring to some serious other grammar fails) and it's worked well so far. I'd say you could put the 13 yr old in level 6 and be fine. The levels do review the same material with an added layer of depth each time so that may be why 8 looked crazy-complex. Often, the diagrams can look really intimidating. I think most stop grammar at level 8 and then move towards a model of more applied grammar usage through writing. Basically, using your grammar knowledge to allow for clear and deliberate sentence structure. For example, when editing a paper: That sentence sounds weird? Let's diagram it and try to figure out why! 

[flyingaway]

Rod and Staff was always a breeze for my student until we hit level 7. I'm telling you that because my girl has used it since level 3 and it's still hard for her at the upper levels, so your daughter shouldn't feel bad about struggling with book 8 since she had no prior exposure to the program.

 

If you want to use it, you probably will need to start back at 6 with what she doesn't know.

 

We won't be doing grammar in high school except for the Rod and Staff 8 which we will probably still be dragging our feet through, skipping the writing portions. I have no plan to finish it in a timely manner, but I do want her to finish it.

 

But I have had the experience of teaching English in a foreign country where the learners knew English grammar better than I did, and I have an English degree, so I'm motivated by that.

[fourisenough]

I haven't done R&S, so please realize this is not BTDT advice. I agree with others that I would have your 8th grader start back in book 6 from the beginning, testing through until you find the spot where she is seeing new material. Begin there and go as far as you get this school year. Pick up where you left off next year. Most high school students are finished with grammar instruction after 9th grade; perhaps by then she will have finished R&S 7 or 8.

 

We use AG in middle school and just learn grammar through writing during HS. I will have DD11 use the high school reinforcement books to improve retention. My older girls didn't and have gotten a bit rusty.

[Garga]

OP, I'm in the same boat as you, except with CLE which is pretty comparable to R&S. We'd used R&S for a couple of years but the boys were just sick and tired of the format and wanted something different. We did Easy Grammar for a year (last year) and they lost knowledge. So this year I have my 5th grader in CLE 5 and my 8th grader in CLE 7 and we are having the same issues as you.

 

The grammar is just over the top. I am so glad I didn't have my 8th grader try to do the 8th grade book because he is struggling with the 7th grade book and he's a bright kid. It's frustrating to all of us. I have taken some of the pressure off him and tell him to just "do his best" and try not to let him get down when he misses things. I tell him to take his best stab at the diagramming, but he rarely gets them right the first time around. I mean--those little stands that gerunds are on? And how the participial has a curved line that the -ing goes on? Wha...? It's just too much. And figuring out what is an adverbial phrase vs an adjective phrase has us scratching our heads sometimes.

 

I have decided that once we hit high school in September I will not be doing a big grammar curric with him. I believe that what he has is enough. Fortunately in this house we naturally speak with good grammar so the things that get other people messed up (like beside vs besides, or mis-matches of subject/verb) are things that he naturally does correctly.

 

If he decides to become an editor when he grows up, he'll have to jump back in to some of this hardcore grammar, but I honestly believe he speaks/writes well enough that we don't need to keep learning about gerunds and participials beyond what he's learning this year.

 

I will probably try to find some sort of very, very light grammar book to work on maybe once a week or so to keep the basics up. Maybe something written for adults to refresh themselves about grammar. I haven't started searching yet. I might very hesitantly use Daily Grams, but since they're linked to Easy Grammar I might not, being that last year when we used Easy Grammar I feel like they went backwards with their grammar knowledge.

 

OP--I might be wrong in what I'm doing, but I do understand your question. Maybe someone else will chime in with better advice for the two of us.

[Garga]

I haven't done R&S, so please realize this is not BTDT advice. I agree with others that I would have your 8th grader start back in book 6 from the beginning, testing through until you find the spot where she is seeing new material. Begin there and go as far as you get this school year. Pick up where you left off next year. Most high school students are finished with grammar instruction after 9th grade; perhaps by then she will have finished R&S 7 or 8.

 

We use AG in middle school and just learn grammar through writing during HS. I will have DD11 use the high school reinforcement books to improve retention. My older girls didn't and have gotten a bit rusty.

Analytical Grammar looks interesting. It says that the high school reinforcements are meant to be used once every 2 weeks. Thanks for posting about this.

[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  (((Hugs))))! This is just a little hiccup in the road -- not at all a major "fail"!

 

 

1. No!

Don't beat yourself up for things that turn out differently than you expected. You've done a great job of setting goals for your homeschooling, and choosing materials to meet that. There is no way to predict how every student will respond to every program. And VERY often, in spite of extensive research, we can NOT know how a program will work, or NOT work, for us until we get into it. That's just real life homeschooling. 

 

2. Drop it.

If R&S 8 is a lot more Grammar than necessary for your family, drop it and substitute something else that better fits your goals. No need to keep trying to make something work that doesn't fit your family just because you bought it, or just because a lower level works but the higher level doesn't. That happens. Drop it and move on. :)

 

3. Yes. :)

And if that would also feel like turning a win into a fail for DD#1, you could have DD#2 stop Grammar for this semester, and let DD#1 skim through R&S6 as needed, and then DD#2 could finish it next year in 7th grade.

 

4. Can't help here.

No personal experience with R&S. Hopefully someone with both FLL and R&S experience will jump in. Otherwise, my thoughts are:

- EITHER: it sounds like FLL, then no Grammar, and then R&S6 is working well for DD#2, so if younger DC are a lot like her, that's a fine plan

- OR: if you think younger DC would benefit from more Grammar than what older DC had, then try and borrow a copy of R&S 4 and 5 to look at extensive samples so you can more precisely pinpoint where to jump in with them; if you can't see materials in person, then look for sample pages and esp. the table of contents for subjects covered for levels 4 and 5 to determine where to start with younger children (you already know what level 6 looks like…)

 

5. bonus answer ;)

You might also consider looking at Analytical Grammar, which is designed to be a thorough review/wrap-up of Grammar for late middle school. It might cover all the topics you need/want, and be less "intense" than R&S 8...

 

BEST of luck in your Grammar adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Lori D.

[stlily]

My daughter is in the 6th grade and we went through all 4 levels of FLL and then switched to R&S in the 5th grade.  Grammar, like Math and Spelling, is a skills-based subject that must be learned systematically.  Skipping levels will leave gaps in your understanding.  In TWTM  Susan Wise Bauer says, "The logic-stage student must use a formal grammar program to build the language skills so necessary for good writing."  She recommends R&S because it teaches diagramming thoroughly and well. "We don't think diagramming sentences ought to be optional. Sentence diagrams reveal the logic of sentence structure...diagramming prevents the child from simply parroting back the rules that she doesn't fully understand." For this reason, I agree with many of the ladies who recommend that you back up a couple of levels and only cover the topics your daughter(s) need.  

 

I don't know if you use the Tests that come with the program but if you do, I recommend that you administer each test of R&S Level 6 (even backing up to level 5 if it becomes necessary) to see what your daughter(s) already know and don't know.  If you administer the chapter 1 test and she gets everything correct, then administer the chapter 2 test the next day (or the same day if time allows and she feels up to it) and so on.  Keep doing this until you come to a topic that she hasn't mastered yet.  

 

Also, remember that R&S was written for a classroom setting so there are more practice exercises than may be needed.  Again quoting SWB, "...don't feel that you have to complete every grammar exercise.  If your child understands the concepts and is able to put it into practice, there's no need to be compulsive about finishing the page."

 

As far as how far you should go with grammar, well I don't have a rhetoric stage student yet so I don't know what the recommendations  for grammar in the rhetoric stage are in TWTM.  I would read what SWB recommends and then make a decision.  What I appreciate most about SWB and that she doesn't simply say, "Do this."  She always explains the reasons behind her recommendations and leaves it up to us to decide what's best for our students.  Hope this helps.

[HappyDoopy]

Well, as usual, ya'll have been a wealth of information and encouragement. Thank you! I think we will go ahead and test through the R&S 6 chapters, find out where she is exactly, and go from there. I think I said earlier that I really do appreciate how thorough the curriculum is. Perhaps after this we'll check out AG, but for now we'll give book 6 a go. :)

 

I also recently noticed that TWTM Academy has at least two grammar courses (Beginning and Advanced), along with a quick placement test (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6peV77xQYK_bnlLUURnUjIzcW8/view). I may check that out as well, possibly for next year. I imagine TWTMA courses cover most of what she will need!! 

 

Thanks again!

[Momto4inSoCal]

I would also recommend analytical grammar. We are using it and my girls have learned more grammar than I ever knew. My girls are younge so I am taking our time. I plan on moving to the review once we are done and that will be the end of our grammar education. We used R&S prior to analytical grammar and while I love that it is an all in one program I dropped it because I wanted specific writing instruction that I feel R&S wasn't providing for my struggling writers. The box checker in me couldn't handle skipping parts or R&S and using a seperate program. When I looked at the scope and sequence of R&S, Analytical Grammar covered all of the grammar R&S did but only covered grammar. It starts with nouns and parts of speech most children will understand and moves you through to the harder concepts such as gerunds and different clauses. It's ment to be used as a three year program during the middle school years and the review and reinforcement covers the high school years. You don't have to follow their plan though and the book could be covered in a year.

[yvonne]

We used R&S 3-7. I was comfortable stopping with 7.  However, on slower weeks, I still try to sneak in a couple lessons of R&S 8 with my daughter. For my sons, they just had too much else going on academically to continue with R&S 8. R&S's grammar has given them a fantastic foundation for their Latin and, to a lesser degree, their French studies. It's also contributed to their ability to write clearly, I think.

 

I would have your 13 year old join your 11 year old this year and just work through 6. It is solid. It's a lot more grammar than most students get.  Also, with 2 younger ones coming up, your having worked through R&S 6 will make it much easier and more effective/efficient for you to teach the younger ones.

 

Or, as a pp mentioned, get the test booklet and have her test out of chapters you think she can already do. I'd make it easy on yourself, though, and just have her work through R&S 6. If she has time next year, she could potentially continue with R&S 7 and then call it done.

 

Switching programs, unless really necessary, can be so inefficient because you have to figure the new program out, get into some routine for using it, figure out what the student has already covered, figure out whether the student really *knows* the material he's covered or whether he should go back over it,...  And *then,* after all that, you may just run into exactly the same problem with the new program that you've been trying to solve with the old one!

 

 

Edited January 11, 2016 by yvonne

[redsquirrel]

FLL 1-4 and then right into R&S 5.  I did that with my kids and things went well.  Well, kid, not kids.  Kid #2 is in R&S 5 b/c he would be a 5th grader.

 

We sort of slowed down with grammar in the middle school years and by 8th grade we were finishing up R&S 7, so I hadn't got to 8. For 9th grade ds1 decided to go to public high school, so we didn't get through R&S 8, but we would have done it in 9th.

 

I didn't slow down on purpose, it was mostly poor planning, lol.  We spend part of a 5th grade on Growing with Grammar, hated it beyond belief, tossed it and then started with R&S. So we were 3/4 of a school year 'behind'.  I won't be making that same mistake with ds2. We went right from FLL to R&S and are very happy with it.

 

I do most of R&S orally and I pick and chose our exercises. I don't do everything, I make it work for us and our schedule.  I also change a lot of the words. We aren't christian and it is very OTT for us. So, I do stuff like reword the sentences so it is about Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or Harry Potter or Doctor Who. It keeps the kids interested and they like it, lol. Grammar takes about 20 mins three times a week.

 

For an 8th grader who hasn't had much grammar beyond FLL, I would start with R&S 5 or 6. Either would be fine.  If you have one child in R&S 6, then just put them together. 

[nobeatenpath]

I am not sure this is any help but - I used to be a professional editor, employed by government departments and academics.  So proper, nerdy, get your language right type stuff. And I never formally studied grammar - not at school, not at university. I am now doing Grammar Town with my son and actually learning the formal definitions of some stuff I 'knew' all these years. However I was always well read across a broad range of writing styles. So if grammar really is getting to be 'too much' it does not necessarily mean your child will not be a good writer in the future (or even now!) I think exposure is more important than memorising rules.

[Reefgazer]

I'm struggling with some of these questions as well, as per my post over on the high school board.  I answered as best I could below with bold print:

This year my older two girls, ages 11 & 13, started R&S English 8 & 6, respectively. This is our first year with R&S. We finished FLL4 a couple of years ago, and haven't done a lot with grammar since then. Well, we realized very quickly that R&S 8 was way over the 13 yo's head (and mine too! ack!). She's now in grammar-limbo (having stopped R&S in Oct/Nov). My 11 yo is appropriately challenged in R&S 6. 

 

I'm concerned/curious now for a couple of reasons: 

 

1. Grammar has always been a very easy subject for my girls. The struggle in R&S 8 felt like a big blow to my 13 yo ~ since there are so many other "really difficult" things about being 13, having a subject that's always been a "win" turn into a "fail" just kinda stinks. In large part, it's my fault -  I should've done more homework, to see that R&S would be so different/difficult {poor first-born guinea pig!} 

 

2. While I appreciate how in-depth and thorough R&S is, I wonder if it's a little overkill? Book 6 is challenging, but reasonably so. I haven't looked at book 7 yet. Book 8 felt altogether over-the-top. Even my husband - who has a PhD and teaches at a private university - didn't understand much past the first few chapters. Is learning grammar THAT in-depth really necessary? Am I so old that I can't remember ever having done grammar in such depth? Or is it not really as crazy-advanced as I feel like it is, and it's really perfectly reasonable and normal expectations for middle school? And if so, what grammar are they doing in (gasp) high school?? Clearly (I see now) it's a curriculum where you can't just jump into a higher level without having progressed through the lower levels first. But it still feels like a lot more grammar than necessary at this level. Thoughts? 

 

I am wondering this as well.  My sense is that it is a bit overkill after the 6-7 grade book, but my own grammar education was abysmal, so what do I know?  Public schools teach zero grammar, at least around here.

 

3. At this point, do you think I should have the 13 yo start in book 6, and maybe skip/progress quickly through the parts she already knows well? Or should we just throw in the R&S towel for her, and pick up something else altogether? (& if so, what?)

 

For my 13 year old, we are working through the 6th grade book in its entirety, because she needs the grammar and punctuation practice.  Not sure if we'll continue R+S in high school yet.

 

4. I have two more kids in the wings ... I'm determined to get everything right with them (haha, I wish!). To avoid repeating this scenario in a few years, is it best to begin R&S directly after FLL4? And if so, what R&S level? 5? 6? Depends of what age/grade level they are at that point?

 

TIA!

 

[Gwenny]

I'm listening in on this thread.  I have a 7th grader going through R&S 6 and I agree it's a lot of grammar and totally new to me.  We didn't do any grammar in school aside from identifying the main parts of speech.  When we got to high school Spanish, we were all lost because we didn't understand English grammar, let alone Spanish.  The teacher constantly used grammar terms we had never heard of.  I'm planning on sticking with it as long as I can in the hopes that it really does pay off in the end. 

[Momto4inSoCal]

Just out of curiosity I looked up the common core english standards and it seems like they've added grammar back. I had heard from a friend that's a teacher that the grammar is more intense now. Interesting since I know when I was growing up they had amost completely abandoned grammar. Maybe it has something to do with how poor the kids are writing at college level. I know it's usefulness has been debated. I think in order for grammar to be useful you need to understand it in depth. Just knowing the 8 parts of speech will not help you figure out why a sentence is wrong.