AoPS -- How to you lead your child into the learning curve for this program?

[Pen]

Math has been a struggle since last year in our home school. Of the several math options I have been considering for ds I want to go back to trying AoPS. 

 

My son had done some (a little) of the pre-algebra book last year. And maybe around 5% of Alcumus pre-algebra. It had been seeming like there were not enough problems for him in that if he asked me for help with a problem, once he got how to do that one with my help, there were then not more like it to practice. He also tends to be impatient and not to take time to see how the book or Alcumus solves a problem.

 

I got him Saxon because of it having more problems, but he loathes Saxon. We have also tried Lial's and some other things...  He loved doing Khan Academy math--and got about half way through Khan's pre-algebra, but we don't have the computer infrastructure for that to work well. Basically he has spent over a year on prealgebra--  but has not finished any program.

 

I think I would like to try having him either get solid in what would be AoPS prealgebra 1 between now and summer and then take its prealgebra 2 as an online course in summer, which would pretty much catch him up to where he "should" be in math--or  to take prealgebra 1 as an online course in summer which would mean he'd be "behind" but maybe at least quite solid in what he does have before moving forward.

 

To do it at home, from the book, what is the best way to get a child to learn to work through the ... well, the working through it, puzzling over it and doing it, rather than either quickly seeing a solution, or not seeing it and giving up?

 

It may be that AoPS is too hard for him, but it is at least not boring which is a step in the right direction. And I have the feeling that if he could manage to do struggle through it and succeed that it would improve all his skills, logic, patience, effort, and so on.

 

I am also open to other curriculum ideas, but think figuring out how to best try to work through the AoPS learning curve and give it a full-out effort rather than hopping from thing to thing searching for a perfect fit that probably does not exist, would be a good idea.

 

 

eta: very specific instructions on how you would make it work, like what time to do it, for how long at a sitting, whether to have a second copy of main book, whether to have child read it aloud to you or vice versa or neither, whether to try to see the videos first, etc. would be appreciated. Even words to say when child asks for help, like maybe things to get the child to try longer himself, or how to get him to disclose what he has already tried (if anything)...

Edited December 11, 2015 by Pen

[Dmmetler]

Mostly, for us it was a "jump in and do it". We did do LOF PA before starting AoPS PA, which may have not been necessary but made me feel better (and she was young to start PA, so she had time) and I think made it easier because she'd already had some experience with most of the topics.

 

AoPS doesn't give a lot of the same type of problem, but you'll find that the concepts and skills keep recurring in future problem sets, the reviews, and the challenge problems. 100% on the problem sets is NOT expected, but what I've found is that even things that were a little shaky on the exercises are often pretty solid by the time we get to the review of the chapter-and they don't stop there. My DD is doing AoPS geometry, and is finding a lot of review of algebra built in.

 

Others may be able to weigh in on something between Saxon and AoPS. I'm pretty confident that if I gave my DD Saxon, it would totally kill her love of math-but AoPS is extremely challenging by design and goes way beyond most math books. There are a lot of very strong math students for whom AoPS just isn't the best choice.

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

We started with Intro to Algebra (prealgebra did not exist), but this is how I started out with my then 6th grader:

I sat next to the student during math time, so I was available for questions if he got stuck.

We talked about the problems.

I encouraged my kids to try different things, scribble out attempts - NOT stare at the problem and a blank notebook page. It is important to demonstrate that difficult problems may require false starts, and that these false starts and attempts have value!

I taught them to first write down everything that is given in the problem, and to use drawings and sketches whenever possible to visualize the information.

The amount of time we worked on math depended on the attention span. My DD could focus for several hours on math; DS as only able to work concentrated for 45 minutes, afterwards his focus waned, and he started making silly mistakes and not thinking clearly. So, that was the sign to end the math session.

With AoPS, we never scheduled a certain number of problems each day - they are of different difficulty. Instead, we do time on task, even now in high school. yesterday, DS spent one hours solving two problems. That's OK, and more beneficial than doing two pages of easy problems in the same time.

Edited December 11, 2015 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

Ask him to explain the worked examples to you as he read through them. My DS10 can read but nothing goes in when he is in daydream mode. If you are free, you can ask him how he is going to tackle the exercise problems before he start working them out.

 

My oldest would flip to the summary page of the chapter to refresh his memory. He doesn't like to copy formulas and theorems to flashcards or notebooks. However some people learn better copying out those things. So learning style comes into play.

 

Some kids have higher threshold of frustration from the get go. Some like my DS10 needs me to sit near him just to tell him to take a walk to the kitchen and drink/eat something then continue.

 

If he is stronger in geometry, the last few chapters in prealgebra would be very fast.

 

Keep the challenge problems for when he is done with the book. Getting frustrated over the challenge problems is not going to go well over starting the next chapter for some kids.

 

If he hit his frustration quota of the day, it is ok to continue the next day.

 

My DS11 was frustrated yesterday with his AoPS intermediate algebra online class homework (leftovers) but easily complete the trigonometry homework for his AoPS precalculus online class. I told him to take a break from the int alg homework and play.

 

Different chapters are harder for different kids :)

 

Try, adjust and fine tune.

 

It is not the math. It is coping and managing frustrations, and knowing when to ask for help. It takes years.

 

My kids when they are tuning their cellos are really pictures of frustration regardless of quality of cello :lol: Both are perfectionists.

 

ETA:

I read through the high school Saxon textbooks public school edition that library have and they get the job done. Hubby has issue with the layout when I showed him but he is biased against thick math books because he thinks they are too verbose. He reads slower than me.

 

ETA:

Edited for typing mistakes

Edited December 11, 2015 by Arcadia

[lisabees]

You have received fabulous advice.

 

DD has just gotten over the hump of the learning curve.  Honestly, I didn't think she could do it.  I thought her personality was such that she wouldn't be able to cope with the emotional frustration.

 

And that has been the most rewarding bit - watching her go through that and come out on the other end, enjoying the struggles and challenging herself with them.

 

It took...

 

Patience and lots of it - with her and with me!

Sitting next to her while working through those early problems on a white board (we still go over incorrect answers on the whiteboard)

Supplementing with MEP Secondary to allow her to feel successful in plug and chug work

Not doing the Challenge Problems

Supplementing with fun math videos - Numberphile, Art Benjamin, ViHart, documentaries, etc.

Telling her that Alcumus has levels and streaks and quests!  She now does Alcumus for at least 45 mins daily.  This was her inspiration.

 

DD gladly works on math now for almost two hours a day.

 

Good luck!

[Pen]

Thank you to all who answered. I am going to try to put these ideas into practice.

 

Part of my own big learning curve and challenge is to figure out how to "help" but not to do it for ds.  

[wapiti]

Help might start with a question from you or perhaps some of your own thinking out loud.  The lesson problems are nicely designed for this.  "What should we do next?" "What could we try?"  We also found white boards to be useful.

[regentrude]

Part of my own big learning curve and challenge is to figure out how to "help" but not to do it for ds.  

 

Socratic questions and working alongside him.

 

If you are well versed in the material, you can guide him by questioning when he gets stuck:

"What do we know?"

"Can you see how these two quantities are related?" "

"Does this remind you of something else?"

"Do you remember the problem we did yesterday?"

"What is the last concept we learned about? Do you think we can find a way to apply this here?"

"Why don't you try...."

 

If the material is new for you and you are learning along with him, sit down and work the problems in parallel.

[daijobu]

We treat the Problems as the lecture and the Exercises as the homework.  That is, we go through each of the problems together, with me writing out the problem, attempting to find a solution.  Even if we find a solution we still read the book's solution carefully to make sure we understand the point of the lesson.  

 

Immediately after, my kids would attempt as many of the exercises as they can, and review the solutions for each problem, especially the ones they missed.  I would help them to review each missed exercise.  

 

My kids would spend 2-3 days each on review and challenge problems.  

 

If you have extra time, you can do the exercises in the morning and the problems in the afternoon or the next day, maybe after a brief review of the section.  

 

Particularly in PreAlgebra, if a relationship is forgotten like the exponents (multiplying numbers with exponents, understanding negative exponents), it's important to be able to do a quickie derivation on the fly.  Whenever possible relationships and formulas should not be memorized, but readily derivable, even if in your head, or in the margin of your paper.

 

AoPS is well worth the effort if you can manage it.   It really helps if the parent is solid on their math, or at least can stay a chapter ahead.   

[lllll]

nm

Edited October 9, 2016 by 1' n'ye

[...................]

I apologize that I haven't read the entire thread.

 

However, it is my firm belief that not every kid is cut out for AOPS.  My son did OK with the Challenge problems in Pre-Algebra, as chosen by his tutor.  He does fine with all the practice, just not the challenge problems.

 

However now that he is in Algebra on Chapter 7 it is becoming apparent that perhaps he just doesn't have what it takes.  Every problem is like a puzzle, basically every problem is the type of stuff that makes you wring your hands in frustration...there are logical leaps that have to be made...it is designed to push your critical thinking skills to the limit.  

 

I don't know if his tutor will keep him in AOPS this coming semester.  She can't come and live in our house and help him every day.  Even if she did, that wouldn't necessarily help.  Alcumus is awesome and a big help...

 

Now, maybe Chapter 5, 6 and Chapter 7 are just really difficult chapters,  and he will get over the hump, and do just fine with the rest of the book.  But, I sat with him for all the Challenge problems for Chapter 7 and I was totally stumped.  What he did by and large made sense to me yet 5 out of 7 were wrong, even after multiple attempts.  

 

SO, just an FYI--  AOPS really is for a kid that is truly gifted, loves for math to be a puzzle that you solve AND has really great Critical Thinking skills...the kind of person who is the first to solve logic puzzles and critical thinking riddles and quandaries.  

 

 

[daijobu]

However, it is my firm belief that not every kid is cut out for AOPS.  My son did OK with the Challenge problems in Pre-Algebra, as chosen by his tutor.  He does fine with all the practice, just not the challenge problems.

 

 

 

Can I ask how you structured your AoPS lessons with your tutor?  Did this person come every day to your home?   What did they do together and what was assigned as homework?  

 

I am interested in any details you can provide because I'm considering tutoring AoPS PreA for another family, but I'm wondering if I need to be there every day, or if skype would work or what.  It seems that for younger students AoPS PreA is pretty labor intensive.  Thank you for your help.  

[...................]

We use the online class.  He does exactly as the AOPS online recommends, and although the class does not require the student to do all the practice problems in the teaching chapter, my son does them.

 

So:

Monday: Read Chapter and do book Practice Problems

Tuesday: DO the rest of the Book Practice Problems, Attend Class

Wednesday: FInish the Alcumus assigned (this is a smart learning software that will give more of what the student needs.)

Thursday: Challenge Problems

Friday: Challenge Problems

Saturday: Challenge Problems if left over.

 

He is not having trouble with any part of it except the Challenge problems.  However, there's a sense in which the Challenge problems are the meat of the program.  

 

Since writing the above post, I thought:  I guess, a student could use AOPS and just skip the challenge problems??

 

(but then I would wonder if the student is getting enough practice and work in math, in general.)

 

 

[...................]

Oh he meets with the tutor on Mondays, every other week.  We thought of increasing it to every week but at this point I'm thinking it would be better to switch to Prentice Hall Classics or some other Honors level but not necessarily Gifted level Algebra 2.

[EndOfOrdinary]

This is long, but I tried to be detailed.

 

With PreA, the Practice Problems were originally done with me writing on the white board and the two of us working them out. It was a modified lecture where I definitely steered the conversation. Ds needed to get to the answer without all the tangents initally. The next day, he would attempt the exercises. Initially, that meant if the answer did not come to him in five seconds, he would ask for help, cry, freak out, meltdown, self loath, or any combination there-in. I would then sit next to him and we would go through the problem together. This was painful and required patience from both of us.

 

By chapter 5 in PreA, Ds would do the Practice Problems on the white board with me very close by. I would ask the style of Socratic Questions regentrude listed above after even the tiniest of steps forward in solving. It was affirmation which he needed. I was still stopping him from going off on tangents with phrases like, "I don't know. Why don't you try a different route..." Sometimes I would make a loud, silly, buzzer noise like getting something wrong on a game show. NHe was not yet ready to openly fail. His confidence was still shakey. Exercises were done the next day, by himself, with the explicit instruction to immediately skip any problems he was stuck on. We would go through the skipped problems together on Day 3.

 

By chapter 10 in PreA, Ds was working at the white board by himself with me doing other things near-ish. At this point he would comment that he felt things were going off incorrectly and stop himself to ask for help. Sometimes he would get to the end and have a completely wonky answer and restart. After three restarts he was instructed to ask for help. Help came from the problem being restarted and me doing Socratic Questions after each micro step. Not exactly steering, but more asking Ds to speak out loud what he was thinking. Often he would get lightbulbs going off in his head when we did this. Exercises were done by himself the next day. If he had trouble with any, Day 3 we would work together with the Socratic Question method.

 

Ds is now through PreA, Intro Counting & Probability, part of Intro to Geometry, part of Intro to Algebra. We are finishing up Intro to Algebra and the rest of Geometry this year. Algebra is harder for Ds. Sometimes, he gets mentally stuck when he has convinced himself something is "really hard" or "too hard." Getting unstuck requires that we sit down and go through a very scripted procedure:

 

Me: "What is this chapter about?"

Ds: lists everything he could possibly know about ratios, quadratics, cartesian plane, whatever

Me: writes the list down one by one

 

Me: "What was the last subset about?" (Not whole chapter, just the last section/subset)

Ds: lists everything he can remember about the previous section

Me: "What does this subset seem to be about?"

Ds: lists a whole pile of things some of which are related to the actual content of the section. (This often helps me see where he is derailed)

Me: "How do you think the two are connected?"

Ds: lightbulb happens or long rambling thoughts spew forth and must be wrangled. Either way, his brain is much more focused than before.

 

If lightbulb happens:

Me: "What is the first step in the process?"

Ds: gets up and has to physically step to the side and give me the first part of his thought process.

Me: "the next one?"

Ds: takes another step over and give the next step

These are written on the side of the white board. Ds withh then read and step through them two or three times before attempting the Practice Problems. He will then identify which information in the process the problem has given him and what he needs to derive. From that point he is usually golden. It might take for.ev.er. to go through the scipt, but it restarts his brain and the structure makes him feel secure.

 

If lightbulb doesn't happen, then he mulls over it for a day or two and we begin again. However, we have plenty of time to do this; PreA was finished by age 9ish and Algebra will be done by 11. Time was/is definitely on our side. Letting your son mull over it might drag the program out for you and not be an option. In that case, after a day or so of thinking, I would begin providing a step or two and see if that doesn't jump start his thinking. Once Ds began understanding mathematical thinking, he started to fly through the AoPS curriculum.

[Pen]

How do you work with having child not shut down if a problem is missed?

 

I am looking back at the book and since ds wrote in it, I can still see some of what took place.  It looks like he was going along great in chapter one till he missed challenge problem number 2 in the first chapter and then ...  had trouble getting back up again from that, as it were.  It was to add up a series and he had the basic concept that the pairs would each add to 105, I think it was, but then multiplied by 100 rather than the actual number of pairs which was 10.  After that it seems like even the writing gets messy and upset looking.  I see the same pattern in chapter 2. Ds does very well with getting back up and trying again when it is a physical thing like working on an ice skating maneuver. Not so much so in math. 

 

Wondering what my own words or contribution may have been, which there is no longer a record of.  Any suggestions for what should be said in such an instance?

 

Not doing the Challenge problems first time through (or perhaps ever) as some posts above have suggested might go a long way toward alleviating this problem also.

 

I know he also seems to do better when he can do something I (or someone he knows) cannot do.  If he could figure it out, and then teach it to someone else (for real) that would probably help. If I could be genuinely confused it might actually help.  If I could figure out how to apply having at one point taught him to play chess, but now he plays better than I do to math, that would help. 

 

Also, I don't know how long work had been going on at those points, where I can still see evidence of "melt down". 

 

It may be that deliberately stopping after a very short time, maybe just 15 minutes so as to have fewer getting tired and careless type mistakes, leading into a downward spiral of upset and distress might help.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Originally, Ds would get all locked up. So I began to structure it to the point he would not get ANY wrong. This was just to boost him through the confidence that getting them wrong did not mean he was bad, stupid, terrible at math, whatever. He has anxiety and perfectionism issues. It is one of the reasons we use AoPS.

 

I think were posting at the same time, so I do not know if you saw my post above.

 

Basically, I was right there and would begin steering if Ds began to go off track. After a few chapters, I started to pull back. Now, I am not needed at all. However, the emotional growth was the best part of the program for us. Ds has much stronger sense of resolve and confidence. He stops himself before meltdowns now, takes twenty minutes off, and asks me to then help him. That only happens every 3 or 4 chapters now.

[daijobu]

This is long, but I tried to be detailed.

 

With PreA, the Practice Problems were originally done with me writing on the white board and the two of us working them out. It was a modified lecture where I definitely steered the conversation. Ds needed to get to the answer without all the tangents initally. The next day, he would attempt the exercises. Initially, that meant if the answer did not come to him in five seconds, he would ask for help, cry, freak out, meltdown, self loath, or any combination there-in. I would then sit next to him and we would go through the problem together. This was painful and required patience from both of us.

 

<... Lots of patience and hard work...>

 

If lightbulb doesn't happen, then he mulls over it for a day or two and we begin again. However, we have plenty of time to do this; PreA was finished by age 9ish and Algebra will be done by 11. Time was/is definitely on our side. Letting your son mull over it might drag the program out for you and not be an option. In that case, after a day or so of thinking, I would begin providing a step or two and see if that doesn't jump start his thinking. Once Ds began understanding mathematical thinking, he started to fly through the AoPS curriculum.

 

Wow, you are an inspiration!  To go from freak outs to solid mathematical thinking is quite an accomplishment.  He's lucky to have you!  

[Pen]

This is long, but I tried to be detailed.

 

With PreA, the Practice Problems were originally done with me writing on the white board and the two of us working them out. It was a modified lecture where I definitely steered the conversation. Ds needed to get to the answer without all the tangents initally. The next day, he would attempt the exercises. Initially, that meant if the answer did not come to him in five seconds, he would ask for help, cry, freak out, meltdown, self loath, or any combination there-in. I would then sit next to him and we would go through the problem together. This was painful and required patience from both of us.

 

By chapter 5 in PreA, Ds would do the Practice Problems on the white board with me very close by. I would ask the style of Socratic Questions regentrude listed above after even the tiniest of steps forward in solving. It was affirmation which he needed. I was still stopping him from going off on tangents with phrases like, "I don't know. Why don't you try a different route..." Sometimes I would make a loud, silly, buzzer noise like getting something wrong on a game show. NHe was not yet ready to openly fail. His confidence was still shakey. Exercises were done the next day, by himself, with the explicit instruction to immediately skip any problems he was stuck on. We would go through the skipped problems together on Day 3.

 

By chapter 10 in PreA, Ds was working at the white board by himself with me doing other things near-ish. At this point he would comment that he felt things were going off incorrectly and stop himself to ask for help. Sometimes he would get to the end and have a completely wonky answer and restart. After three restarts he was instructed to ask for help. Help came from the problem being restarted and me doing Socratic Questions after each micro step. Not exactly steering, but more asking Ds to speak out loud what he was thinking. Often he would get lightbulbs going off in his head when we did this. Exercises were done by himself the next day. If he had trouble with any, Day 3 we would work together with the Socratic Question method.

 

Ds is now through PreA, Intro Counting & Probability, part of Intro to Geometry, part of Intro to Algebra. We are finishing up Intro to Algebra and the rest of Geometry this year. Algebra is harder for Ds. Sometimes, he gets mentally stuck when he has convinced himself something is "really hard" or "too hard." Getting unstuck requires that we sit down and go through a very scripted procedure:

 

Me: "What is this chapter about?"

Ds: lists everything he could possibly know about ratios, quadratics, cartesian plane, whatever

Me: writes the list down one by one

 

Me: "What was the last subset about?" (Not whole chapter, just the last section/subset)

Ds: lists everything he can remember about the previous section

Me: "What does this subset seem to be about?"

Ds: lists a whole pile of things some of which are related to the actual content of the section. (This often helps me see where he is derailed)

Me: "How do you think the two are connected?"

Ds: lightbulb happens or long rambling thoughts spew forth and must be wrangled. Either way, his brain is much more focused than before.

 

If lightbulb happens:

Me: "What is the first step in the process?"

Ds: gets up and has to physically step to the side and give me the first part of his thought process.

Me: "the next one?"

Ds: takes another step over and give the next step

These are written on the side of the white board. Ds withh then read and step through them two or three times before attempting the Practice Problems. He will then identify which information in the process the problem has given him and what he needs to derive. From that point he is usually golden. It might take for.ev.er. to go through the scipt, but it restarts his brain and the structure makes him feel secure.

 

If lightbulb doesn't happen, then he mulls over it for a day or two and we begin again. However, we have plenty of time to do this; PreA was finished by age 9ish and Algebra will be done by 11. Time was/is definitely on our side. Letting your son mull over it might drag the program out for you and not be an option. In that case, after a day or so of thinking, I would begin providing a step or two and see if that doesn't jump start his thinking. Once Ds began understanding mathematical thinking, he started to fly through the AoPS curriculum.

Yes, we were posting at same time, and then I was writing this while you were answering my other post.  Thank you for all answers!

 

We don't have time on our side, but I expect this detailed explanation will help a lot. I think my ds is emotionally in a similar state as to what you are describing for your ds when you started, even though mine is older and probably has "melt downs" that look different than a 9 year old's would look. He can do Alcumus and want to keep going if he is on a streak. But if he messes a problem up I think his confidence crashes and he will avoid doing more for days. If it is really too hard a program, then he needs something else, obviously. But I don't think it is, certainly not at this level, and that what he needs is confidence support.  I might have accidentally made things worse by telling him it is supposed to be a hard program. Unlike, say, with chess which I just started playing with him when he was 5 with no comments about whether it was easy or hard or anything, just a game that was fun to play sometimes.

 

I also think I need to get a second problem book if we are going to do this successfully. Or at least to photocopy a few pages he is working on so we can both see without sharing the same book, which has been an issue. Probably, anyway. 

 

Yes. Ds gets locked up. And yes, I think he has anxiety and perfectionism issues. I think emotional growth in that would mean more than the math itself would!

 

It would be hard to structure it so that he doesn't get ANY wrong because at this point another problem is that he tends not to want to write anything much out. It is nearly all done as mental math. Usually he cannot or will not explain his process, and often claims that he does not have a process, and that he either just "knows" the answer, or that he doesn't. But when I see something wrong in certain ways, like off by a power of ten, as with the example I gave in post above of where he'd messed up and seemed to melt down, sometimes I can figure out what must be the mental process and where it probably went wrong. 

 

Our dialog when a problem comes up might be something like:

DS "This is impossible."

Me "How about _______" (some suggestion that I might try in such a situation)

DS "I can't."

 

And that would be true even if the problem was adding up a series similar to several already done correctly and with really just a "silly" error to it.

 

If he gets something right, he can more often after the fact explain what he did, which I think may mean that with the stress and anxiety removed, he becomes more able to cope with recognizing and expressing his process. This is even more the case if it is something I have trouble with and that came more easily to him so that he is explaining / teaching, not revealing a flaw in reasoning process.

 

Or something like that, anyway. It seems complicated.

[Pen]

However, the emotional growth was the best part of the program for us. Ds has much stronger sense of resolve and confidence. He stops himself before meltdowns now, takes twenty minutes off, and asks me to then help him. That only happens every 3 or 4 chapters now.

 

 

 

Wow! Congratulations to both of you!

 

That would be so wonderful if we could have something like that too!

 

It makes me want to get started on our return to AoPS asap.  Hope I can inspire ds even half as much as this inspired me.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Wow, you are an inspiration! To go from freak outs to solid mathematical thinking is quite an accomplishment. He's lucky to have you!

It was not quick and took every bit of my math teacher training not to strangle the kid :) The book was put away frequently. He is a good kid and hung in there. Now he likes it, most days.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Wow! Congratulations to both of you!

 

That would be so wonderful if we could have something like that too!

 

It makes me want to get started on our return to AoPS asap. Hope I can inspire ds even half as much as this inspired me.

Lots of deep breaths, lots of patience, lots of repeating to myself, "I will not engage the extremist. I will just follow the script. I will not engage the extremist. I will follow the script." Don't be afraid to just stop doing math for the day and come back tomorrow.

 

I have also frequently used, "Look, your way obviously is not working. Can we agree on that? You can either try my way, or we can just use use something else. Totally up to you." That one usually kicked some wind out of his I-am-so-fabulous-I-will-remain-militantly-stubborn sails. The other option is Saxon. Nothing worse than Saxon around here. Even listening to Mom is better than Saxon.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Yes, we were posting at same time, and then I was writing this while you were answering my other post. Thank you for all answers!

 

We don't have time on our side, but I expect this detailed explanation will help a lot. I think my ds is emotionally in a similar state as to what you are describing for your ds when you started, even though mine is older and probably has "melt downs" that look different than a 9 year old's would look. He can do Alcumus and want to keep going if he is on a streak. But if he messes a problem up I think his confidence crashes and he will avoid doing more for days. If it is really too hard a program, then he needs something else, obviously. But I don't think it is, certainly not at this level, and that what he needs is confidence support. I might have accidentally made things worse by telling him it is supposed to be a hard program. Unlike, say, with chess which I just started playing with him when he was 5 with no comments about whether it was easy or hard or anything, just a game that was fun to play sometimes.

 

I also think I need to get a second problem book if we are going to do this successfully. Or at least to photocopy a few pages he is working on so we can both see without sharing the same book, which has been an issue. Probably, anyway.

 

Yes. Ds gets locked up. And yes, I think he has anxiety and perfectionism issues. I think emotional growth in that would mean more than the math itself would!

 

It would be hard to structure it so that he doesn't get ANY wrong because at this point another problem is that he tends not to want to write anything much out. It is nearly all done as mental math. Usually he cannot or will not explain his process, and often claims that he does not have a process, and that he either just "knows" the answer, or that he doesn't. But when I see something wrong in certain ways, like off by a power of ten, as with the example I gave in post above of where he'd messed up and seemed to melt down, sometimes I can figure out what must be the mental process and where it probably went wrong.

 

Our dialog when a problem comes up might be something like:

DS "This is impossible."

Me "How about _______" (some suggestion that I might try in such a situation)

DS "I can't."

 

And that would be true even if the problem was adding up a series similar to several already done correctly and with really just a "silly" error to it.

 

If he gets something right, he can more often after the fact explain what he did, which I think may mean that with the stress and anxiety removed, he becomes more able to cope with recognizing and expressing his process. This is even more the case if it is something I have trouble with and that came more easily to him so that he is explaining / teaching, not revealing a flaw in reasoning process.

 

Or something like that, anyway. It seems complicated.

Just a weird question, does he see help or teaching as a weakness? This was a major issue for many of my at risk high school boys. They saw it as a pride hit, or shameful, or somehow making them less masculine to need actual teaching.

 

If he doesn't want to accept help, you might need to find a program more like Teaching Textbooks that is designed to be more "knock you in the face" and traditional in instruction.

[MarkT]

My gut feel is that AoPS is not the right series for your situation.

 

Maybe look at Fresh Approach??

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/math/Fresh-Approach-Algebra-and-Geometry.htm

 

I think you can download a sample which you could try out with your student.

[lisabees]

 

 

I think I would like to try having him either get solid in what would be AoPS prealgebra 1 between now and summer and then take its prealgebra 2 as an online course in summer, which would pretty much catch him up to where he "should" be in math--or  to take prealgebra 1 as an online course in summer which would mean he'd be "behind" but maybe at least quite solid in what he does have before moving forward.

 

 

 

Haven't read all responses, but I'd like to add...

 

The above likely cannot be done.  If your son is already behind in prealgebra skills, AoPS will not be easily done.  It can be quite the slog for someone who isn't willing and ready.  The online classes are fast and can be quite disheartening for some kids, so going through the last half of the book in the summer will just be overwhelming.

 

Remember, AoPS is not just about the skills, but a complete change in mathematical thinking.  

 

I explained in my previous post the success I have had with my daughter.

 

The reason I stuck with AoPS for her was because she really, really wanted to do it.  Conceptually, she was fine.  It is her first year home and, emotionally, she was struggling in a lot of ways.  Coming home,  feeling emotionally safe, doing AoPS have all contributed to our goal of making her more self confident.  

 

Does your son really want to do AoPS?

[...................]

This is long, but I tried to be detailed.

 

With PreA, the Practice Problems were originally done with me writing on the white board and the two of us working them out. It was a modified lecture where I definitely steered the conversation. Ds needed to get to the answer without all the tangents initally. The next day, he would attempt the exercises. Initially, that meant if the answer did not come to him in five seconds, he would ask for help, cry, freak out, meltdown, self loath, or any combination there-in. I would then sit next to him and we would go through the problem together. This was painful and required patience from both of us.

 

By chapter 5 in PreA, Ds would do the Practice Problems on the white board with me very close by. I would ask the style of Socratic Questions regentrude listed above after even the tiniest of steps forward in solving. It was affirmation which he needed. I was still stopping him from going off on tangents with phrases like, "I don't know. Why don't you try a different route..." Sometimes I would make a loud, silly, buzzer noise like getting something wrong on a game show. NHe was not yet ready to openly fail. His confidence was still shakey. Exercises were done the next day, by himself, with the explicit instruction to immediately skip any problems he was stuck on. We would go through the skipped problems together on Day 3.

 

By chapter 10 in PreA, Ds was working at the white board by himself with me doing other things near-ish. At this point he would comment that he felt things were going off incorrectly and stop himself to ask for help. Sometimes he would get to the end and have a completely wonky answer and restart. After three restarts he was instructed to ask for help. Help came from the problem being restarted and me doing Socratic Questions after each micro step. Not exactly steering, but more asking Ds to speak out loud what he was thinking. Often he would get lightbulbs going off in his head when we did this. Exercises were done by himself the next day. If he had trouble with any, Day 3 we would work together with the Socratic Question method.

 

Ds is now through PreA, Intro Counting & Probability, part of Intro to Geometry, part of Intro to Algebra. We are finishing up Intro to Algebra and the rest of Geometry this year. Algebra is harder for Ds. Sometimes, he gets mentally stuck when he has convinced himself something is "really hard" or "too hard." Getting unstuck requires that we sit down and go through a very scripted procedure:

 

Me: "What is this chapter about?"

Ds: lists everything he could possibly know about ratios, quadratics, cartesian plane, whatever

Me: writes the list down one by one

 

Me: "What was the last subset about?" (Not whole chapter, just the last section/subset)

Ds: lists everything he can remember about the previous section

Me: "What does this subset seem to be about?"

Ds: lists a whole pile of things some of which are related to the actual content of the section. (This often helps me see where he is derailed)

Me: "How do you think the two are connected?"

Ds: lightbulb happens or long rambling thoughts spew forth and must be wrangled. Either way, his brain is much more focused than before.

 

If lightbulb happens:

Me: "What is the first step in the process?"

Ds: gets up and has to physically step to the side and give me the first part of his thought process.

Me: "the next one?"

Ds: takes another step over and give the next step

These are written on the side of the white board. Ds withh then read and step through them two or three times before attempting the Practice Problems. He will then identify which information in the process the problem has given him and what he needs to derive. From that point he is usually golden. It might take for.ev.er. to go through the scipt, but it restarts his brain and the structure makes him feel secure.

 

If lightbulb doesn't happen, then he mulls over it for a day or two and we begin again. However, we have plenty of time to do this; PreA was finished by age 9ish and Algebra will be done by 11. Time was/is definitely on our side. Letting your son mull over it might drag the program out for you and not be an option. In that case, after a day or so of thinking, I would begin providing a step or two and see if that doesn't jump start his thinking. Once Ds began understanding mathematical thinking, he started to fly through the AoPS curriculum.

 

 

Are you doing the CHallenge problems?

 

If Yes, then you have more critical thinking capabilities than 98% of people, and most people, regardless of their patience would not be able to help a student through them.

 

If not, do you still feel it is a complete Algebra program?

 

Honestly, the Challenge problems are truly truly challenging.  They are not something that most moms can necessarily help a student through (Yes, I have successfully helped my student through a LOT of them in Pre-Alg, but in Algebra no way.  They are so tricky.)...And even if you were helping a student through, that would get old very fast for most homeschool mom situations.  It's one thing to lead a student through a lesson and help occasionally.  It's quite another thing to have to walk a student through an entire 300 page book of nothing but extremely challenging logic puzzles. :o)

 

It's just NOT for everyone.  So my advice would be if the student REALLY wants to try it (and mine did) then try it, but if the student just wants to get math done, then use something else.  It'll become apparent after the first book, if the student can handle it or not.

[madteaparty]

It helped my son to see me struggle through the problems and come through. Sometimes I was up to this, and sometimes I was not, so it was not a happy time.

The class does nothing for us, in that I still need to be involved. Frankly we are halfway through the algebra book and I still don't know where the teaching actually happens with Aops. The class feels like a problem management/review session. But, mine is not the "AoPS kid" of WTM forum lore. He just wants to stick with it for now.

[...................]

I agree that the class has not been helpful at all.  In fact, my son just finds it to be a big annoyance.  He gets more out of the book and his tutor.  The class doesn't even go over the challenge problems, just the basic understanding in the regular section of the book.  Supposedly they are supposed to get help and discussion from the kids online, but my son has not found that helpful for some reason.

[madteaparty]

I agree that the class has not been helpful at all. In fact, my son just finds it to be a big annoyance. He gets more out of the book and his tutor. The class doesn't even go over the challenge problems, just the basic understanding in the regular section of the book. Supposedly they are supposed to get help and discussion from the kids online, but my son has not found that helpful for some reason.

My kid does not use the forums at all either. But thanks for your post as I'm beginning to feel like the resident AoPS heretic.

[...................]

My kid does not use the forums at all either. But thanks for your post as I'm beginning to feel like the resident AoPS heretic.

 

LOL....if our tutor and my son decide to stick with AOPS, we will drop the class and just have her tutor every week.  The class is 500.00 for 12 weeks.  We would only have to add 200 to that to have her tutor every week and he would get more out of it.  a lot more, since he gets nothing out of the class.  

[madteaparty]

LOL....if our tutor and my son decide to stick with AOPS, we will drop the class and just have her tutor every week. The class is 500.00 for 12 weeks. We would only have to add 200 to that to have her tutor every week and he would get more out of it. a lot more, since he gets nothing out of the class.

A tutor would be brilliant for my DS, who is relationship-motivated, but I don't know how to go about finding an AOPS friendly tutor in my neck of the woods. I'd pay a lot of $ for that. As it is, I hope WTM academy offer s the year long algebra 2 class next fall...

[Pen]

Again, thank you for all comments, they all contribute to my knowledge and understanding.

 

DS and I had a discussion this morning about math, my thoughts about it, and his about what he wants to do and feels he can do, what he needs/wants from me and so on. I am reporting on that for any comments you may then have. This goes beyond just math and AoPS because it also involves the rest of his schedule and classes and activities.

 

 

 

Ooops. Low battery. To be continued....

 

 

[Pen]

Just a few words to see if this works since a long post just got eaten.

[Arcadia]

Supposedly they are supposed to get help and discussion from the kids online, but my son has not found that helpful for some reason.

The help function on the homework questions wasn't helpful. My oldest get help by arranging homework discussion time with others. My youngest just ask oldest for help.

 

I didn't find their final grade helpful either when I ask for a grade for my filing purpose. I don't think my youngest deserve an A for output eventhough he may deserve an A for effort.

[Pen]

I seem to be having a lot of trouble posting and even keeping signed in. The few words worked, but then the next try poofed. Not sure what is going on.

 

So, basically, ds does not want me to be involved with his math (not helping, and if possible, not even present or watching him when he is doing it) except to:

 

1) drive him to and or pick him up from the library where he can use internet to access Khan Academy and AoPS. We agreed that this would probably be possible Tues, for a significant length of time; Wed after his skating and co-op if he can get there by bus and I can pick him up, for about an hour between the bus and his writing workshop; Thurs after co-op if he can get there by bus for as much as 3.  The library in the smaller, nearer city is closed on Sunday and Monday. It is open on Friday, but we agreed that after two big days of skating and co-op, Friday probably needs to be a day of rest. Sunday and Monday the idea is he would work from home using book, previously downloaded videos, and alcumus if he can access it, which sometimes he can and sometimes he can't.  He asked if I could take him to the library in the bigger, farther city on those days, which I said I am not able to do. But, in fact, if he gets able to use bus well and he really wanted to go, I could take him to the bus station at the closer city on Mondays and he could bus in to the open library at the bigger city from there. 

2) try again to see if KALite can be downloaded. 

 

He wants to start over with Alcumus (we don't know if it can be set to start over, or if he needs to make a whole new account) because he feels he needs to start in where he is confident with it, not where he was stuck and then on top of that gone from it for awhile. He wants to use the book, the videos, maybe exchanges with others on the forums, and maybe ask questions of his co-op Geometry teacher when he has a problem or is stuck (though he is not entirely sure he will not want to ask me a question sometimes, and if he does I will try to keep in mind the approaches shared above). He does not want a tutor at this time, but it is a possibility for the future.

 

He is not sure yet whether he is okay with my looking ahead of him in AoPS, or if he wants to be ahead of me in it. (Of course, I did once upon a time long ago have math up through calculus, even though not AoPS, and was once upon a time on a high school math team, so it is not totally foreign to me, and it is the sort of program I would have liked, but the specifics are unfamiliar and nearly all of it rusty.) He has liked reading books first, in general, when possible. He would like his progress through Alcumus and Khan Academy to show that he is making progress, rather than my looking at his work or giving other tests.

 

I agreed to give this a try. 

 

And I guess there is always the threat of Saxon if he does not do his part :)

 

But, what do you all think?

[EndOfOrdinary]

Are you doing the CHallenge problems?

 

If Yes, then you have more critical thinking capabilities than 98% of people, and most people, regardless of their patience would not be able to help a student through them.

 

If not, do you still feel it is a complete Algebra program?

 

Honestly, the Challenge problems are truly truly challenging. They are not something that most moms can necessarily help a student through (Yes, I have successfully helped my student through a LOT of them in Pre-Alg, but in Algebra no way. They are so tricky.)...And even if you were helping a student through, that would get old very fast for most homeschool mom situations. It's one thing to lead a student through a lesson and help occasionally. It's quite another thing to have to walk a student through an entire 300 page book of nothing but extremely challenging logic puzzles. :o)

 

It's just NOT for everyone. So my advice would be if the student REALLY wants to try it (and mine did) then try it, but if the student just wants to get math done, then use something else. It'll become apparent after the first book, if the student can handle it or not.

Yes, we do the challenge problems. I taught at risk middle and high school students math. Extreme emotionally and behaviorally disturbed youth, the kids no one wanted, who had been told for years they were terrible at math. Ajudicated, arson, suicidal, homeless, sexual predators, autism, feral, you name it and they were my kids. My job was to get them through Algebra 2 and into either community college or vocational programs often starting below fourth grade levels. I was a math prodigy and love AoPS. My son does the challenge problems as well, though he did Geometry before he did Algebra because he thinks in pictures. AoPS is emotional for him, not academic. It requires him to calm down and assess. Once he does that, the problems he finds enjoyable. He self taught the last third of PreA and a good chunk of Geometry. He did the same with a large chunk of Algebra. I test him on every chapter using the review summary (half the regular problems and challenge problems are a study guide and the other half are a test). This is how he gets a grade for the class. I do not sit with him much for any of the program unless he is stuck. That would never work. I had to when he was younger (8 and 9 mainly), but doesn't work now that he is getting older.

 

The program requires ditching algorithms and thinking in proofs. Ds was taught proof based math since the beginning, often with manipulatives since he is visual. He does not do algorithms for much of anything and prefers the distributive property or reverse distribution with factoring. He works really well with AoPS since huge amounts of the program are based on factoring. If you learned algorithms, or your child was taught that way, it is a very difficult program to work in because those are polar opposites from proof based abstraction. This does not mean "normal" parents cannot use the program. It means they have to be willing to completely ditch what they want the program to be and go with what is in front of them. They have to be willing to be completely out of control. Which is terrifying. This is what my son is learning to harness. Fear of not knowing, fear of total failure, fear of relinquishing himself to learning. It is faith pure and simple, and that is why it teaches the beauty of math.

[...................]

EndofOrdinary- Thanks for the explanation.

 

Most of the time, when I try to help with the AOPS Algebra Challenge problems, I am not even using any algorithms.  We look at it from a purely critical thinking viewpoint.  We do everything from draw pictures, to make charts, bar charts, etc. etc.  But frankly, I just don't have the mental capability to make the leaps of logic required in the program.  Of course, maybe if I had been raised on critical thinking and logic problems and mathematics, I would be slightly better.  Practice always helps.  But, by and large the reason I can't help him isn't because I am terrified of working through it, or that I am terrified of doing things the abnormal way.  

 

Not everyone is cut out for it.  Just like not everyone can be an astronaut and not everyone can be a computer programmer and not everyone can be a rocket scientist.  

 

It seems like you are taking a math program specifically written for gifted, motivated math students and saying that any normal parent can teach the "Challenge" problems.

 

If that's so, I disagree.  I think, any normal parent can teach the regular program and practice problems and probably get through some of the Challenge problems.  

 

I am NOT saying that people shouldn't try...or that they shouldn't give it some time to get over the initial hump of the learning curve of doing things differently.  

 

But, if we did not have my math tutor friend it would be hopeless.  

 

I will admit, on my (real, official) IQ test I scored 99% in every area except Logic where I only scored 70%ile....so I am much closer to average in that specific department...and most moms here on WTM are well above average in general.  Logical puzzles are not my strong point...and AOPS Challenge, to me are like big huge logic puzzles :o)  

 

I just feel like future readers of these threads need to know that if they struggle it's NOT because they didn't try, or because they are terrified.  It's because AOPS is an extremely challenging program. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Calming Tea

[...................]

BUT that still begs the question...

 

What about doing AOPS without attempting the Challenge problems?  WOuld there by any merit to that?  

[madteaparty]

AOPS is a little like some literary criticism, everyone reads their hopes and dreams into it.

If memory serves, I think there's been multiple posts stating some parents save some or all the challenge problems for later, or skip them altogether. We try to do them because we are masochists in this house.

[...................]

 

I seem to be having a lot of trouble posting and even keeping signed in. The few words worked, but then the next try poofed. Not sure what is going on.

 

So, basically, ds does not want me to be involved with his math (not helping, and if possible, not even present or watching him when he is doing it) except to:

 

1) drive him to and or pick him up from the library where he can use internet to access Khan Academy and AoPS. We agreed that this would probably be possible Tues, for a significant length of time; Wed after his skating and co-op if he can get there by bus and I can pick him up, for about an hour between the bus and his writing workshop; Thurs after co-op if he can get there by bus for as much as 3.  The library in the smaller, nearer city is closed on Sunday and Monday. It is open on Friday, but we agreed that after two big days of skating and co-op, Friday probably needs to be a day of rest. Sunday and Monday the idea is he would work from home using book, previously downloaded videos, and alcumus if he can access it, which sometimes he can and sometimes he can't.  He asked if I could take him to the library in the bigger, farther city on those days, which I said I am not able to do. But, in fact, if he gets able to use bus well and he really wanted to go, I could take him to the bus station at the closer city on Mondays and he could bus in to the open library at the bigger city from there. 

2) try again to see if KALite can be downloaded. 

 

He wants to start over with Alcumus (we don't know if it can be set to start over, or if he needs to make a whole new account) because he feels he needs to start in where he is confident with it, not where he was stuck and then on top of that gone from it for awhile. He wants to use the book, the videos, maybe exchanges with others on the forums, and maybe ask questions of his co-op Geometry teacher when he has a problem or is stuck (though he is not entirely sure he will not want to ask me a question sometimes, and if he does I will try to keep in mind the approaches shared above). He does not want a tutor at this time, but it is a possibility for the future.

 

He is not sure yet whether he is okay with my looking ahead of him in AoPS, or if he wants to be ahead of me in it. (Of course, I did once upon a time long ago have math up through calculus, even though not AoPS, and was once upon a time on a high school math team, so it is not totally foreign to me, and it is the sort of program I would have liked, but the specifics are unfamiliar and nearly all of it rusty.) He has liked reading books first, in general, when possible. He would like his progress through Alcumus and Khan Academy to show that he is making progress, rather than my looking at his work or giving other tests.

 

I agreed to give this a try. 

 

And I guess there is always the threat of Saxon if he does not do his part :)

 

But, what do you all think?

 

You'll never know until you try!  

 

If you are using AOPS at home, I don' tthink you need both Khan and Alcumus.  I would perhaps consider focusing on one or the other.  Alcumus is awesome.  My son loves it. On library days, that would probably be a VERY productive use of his internet time, while Khan would probably not be as productive.  

 

We have done a lot of research on Khan and the reason it's gaining popularity seems to be the new smart learning system with Mastery Tracks, NOT the videos. In fact, the videos are by and large thought to be rather insipid and algorithm bases, with almost no explanations of why anything works.  So, it would sort of be the anti-AOPS.

 

Alcumus on the other hand, actually teaches your student smarter, and smarter, and smarter ways to think about math...every single problem type has a little box where it shows you the fastest, smartest way the problem could have been done. (that's a weird way to say it because any way to solve a problem is a good way but I mean it teaches you thought "tricks" so to speak)  

 

So while Khan would completely detract from AOPS, Alcumus would completely compliment it  :o)

 

Hope that helps.

[...................]

AOPS is a little like some literary criticism, everyone reads their hopes and dreams into it.

If memory serves, I think there's been multiple posts stating some parents save some or all the challenge problems for later, or skip them altogether. We try to do them because we are masochists in this house.

 

bwahahahahahahahahahha

[Dmmetler]

I think there would be. FWIW, I tend to try to find more straightforward problems for assessment-things like the CK12 book tests. That doesn't mean we don't decide when to move on based on the review, but I certainly don't expect 100% mastery on the review and challenge problems to move on. More like "90+% on the review, and being able to attack and generally get most of the challenge problems". Math is more a means to an end than a passion for DD-she likes it, but she is simply not math focused the way some of the kids on the hive are, and her goals are in the biology/zoology areas, which usually doesn't require math much past calculus and statistics.

 

I also have the one kid in the world who really doesn't like doing math on the computer. It doesn't matter whether it's Alumcus, Khan, or basically any other website out there. She wants pencil and paper. She doesn't mind the computer for other subjects, but for math, she wants to draw, sketch, mark the problem, and interact with it more than she feels she can do on the screen. What that means is that she doesn't get the extra practice from Alumus, which does get to the challenge problem level, and leads me to be a little more insistent on at least trying all the problems in the book.

[Arcadia]

If he likes Khan, he can use Khan for the new SAT prep. Standardised tests questions are as "boring" as the Khan test prep so it is good exposure.

[texasmama]

Haven't read other replies, but this is what we did:

 

I sat side by side with both of my boys and went through the program for an entire calendar year, which included breaks to go to other curricula to cement concepts not covered adequately for my boys.

 

We all three sat on the couch and watched the associated videos first.  Then we turned to the student text and used the discovery part as a learning tool, like the lesson of a textbook.  They worked through the problems (or exercises, I forget the wording) sitting in the same room with me, asking me if they needed help.

 

I am not mathy.  I understood the pre-Algebra program quite well.  

 

My boys did not understand Ch. 13 (Data and Statistics) in spite of the videos so I just had them watch me work through those problems with the thought of it as an introduction.

 

I have an advanced math student and an average math student.  This approach worked for both of them.  I am very glad that we chose to  use this program for pre-Algebra in addition to the outside resources (Dolciani and Key to Algebra).  It was a great preparation for the future for them.  One moved on with AoPS Algebra, and one moved on to Jann in TX's onine class and is now in her Geometry class.

[Arcadia]

BUT that still begs the question...

 

What about doing AOPS without attempting the Challenge problems? Would there by any merit to that?

It depends on what outcome you are looking for in using the books.

 

If the child's aim is contest prep, there are plenty of free resources to do so. Lots of past year math contest problems with solutions for AMC, AIME, USAMT, IMO. There is also the AoPS problem solving books Vol 1 & 2 if a child prefers books.

 

If the aim is to build up a child's tolerance for frustration, without other math enrichment, then the challenge problems does do that. However "struggling" through math is not the only way to build up grit/resilience.

 

If the aim is for a child to go wider than the public school textbooks, than doing the topics itself would already widen the scope. Some review problems are harder than the challenge problems. It is YMMV as usual.

[texasmama]

Also, I did not require the challenge problems.  One kid elected to do some of them.  One kid opted out.

[regentrude]

What about doing AOPS without attempting the Challenge problems?  WOuld there by any merit to that?  

 

Of course. Your student would still get a more rigorous math education based on problem solving and thinking than most other kids.

 

I have written elsewhere, but I repeat it here: AoPS is a curriculum, not a law. You have the right to adapt it to your student's needs. One kid lives and breathes math and cannot rest until he has solved every single challenge problem. Other kids do not have such a strong interest in math. My DS for example wants to be a professional athlete. I reserve the right to adapt AoPS, cut entire sections, and make selections in the review and challenge problems - he will still receive a better math high school education than I see in many of my college students who are science and engineering majors.

My DD is majoring in physics at a top university and excels in her classes; even she did only do a selection of challenge problems.

Edited December 13, 2015 by regentrude

[Pen]

You'll never know until you try!  

 

If you are using AOPS at home, I don' tthink you need both Khan and Alcumus.  I would perhaps consider focusing on one or the other.  Alcumus is awesome.  My son loves it. On library days, that would probably be a VERY productive use of his internet time, while Khan would probably not be as productive.  

 

We have done a lot of research on Khan and the reason it's gaining popularity seems to be the new smart learning system with Mastery Tracks, NOT the videos. In fact, the videos are by and large thought to be rather insipid and algorithm bases, with almost no explanations of why anything works.  So, it would sort of be the anti-AOPS.

 

Alcumus on the other hand, actually teaches your student smarter, and smarter, and smarter ways to think about math...every single problem type has a little box where it shows you the fastest, smartest way the problem could have been done. (that's a weird way to say it because any way to solve a problem is a good way but I mean it teaches you thought "tricks" so to speak)  

 

So while Khan would completely detract from AOPS, Alcumus would completely compliment it   :o)

 

Hope that helps.

 

I'm not sure exactly what ds has in mind, but I think in part having the two help to be less frustrated, and gives alternative ways of looking at things.

 

I don't think he will see himself as doing this or that program so much as doing his math, with the question being what will detract from or complement his math progress and understanding, overall and including that a program that he loathes seems to be counterproductive,  rather than what will detract from or complement a particular program.

 

He would probably do Khan mostly from library because he likes it and can do it from there (cannot do it at all from home other than watching a pre-downloaded video--I suspect that the difficulty of availability gives it a cache of specialness) and he likes  being able to make progress reasonably quickly with accumulation of humongous numbers of "energy points" and so on (what can I say? that sort of thing inspires him.) What he likes most about AoPS is the similar aspect of Alcumus with, I dunno, "quests" and "missions" (wish it gave more "points" per problem--it seems silly but many thousands of points seems more motivating than accumulating them in a lesser power of 10).  He does not know what he wants to do or be, so does not know what math he will need. He likes the idea of working his brain on "puzzle" type math more than being given Saxon type math drudgery. (Khan may be similarly plug and chug math, but if you do a first problem of a certain type right, the computer program recognizes that and moves you on, so that it does not end up being extended busy work on what you already know.)

 

Another reason for him to want to do khan A, I think, is that he was able to get to the halfway point with pre-algebra in just a few sessions. I don't know if that will continue, but I think he may like the idea of being basically done with that level, even if he is also adding to his thinking skills and deeper math understanding by also doing the same level with AoPS.

 

He has not yet seen an AoPS video, so getting those, which also involves library, will be new for him. I looked at some yesterday while in the city for his skating and I think he will like them a lot.

 

I also think his co-op geometry class may help change the way he views math. Many classes there are mom taught, but it is taught by a man who has been teaching math for many years (retired now, I think) in public schools and in a Talented and Gifted Program, and I suspect that the class may help ds start to see math as potentially interesting inherently, rather than just for the bells and whistles of achieving a "quest" or getting more "points" or leveling up type of "achievement" that motivates him on the computer.

 

Of course. Your student would still get a more rigorous math education based on problem solving and thinking than most other kids.

 

I have written elsewhere, but I repeat it here: AoPS is a curriculum, not a law. You have the right to adapt it to your student's needs. One kid lives and breathes math and cannot rest until he has solved every single challenge problem. Other kids do not have such a strong interest in math. My DS for example wants to be a professional athlete. I reserve the right to adapt AoPS, cut entire sections, and make selections in the review and challenge problems - he will still receive a better math high school education than I see in many of my college students who are science and engineering majors.

My DD is majoring in physics at a top university and excels in her classes; even she did only do a selection of challenge problems.

 

 

This is helpful to consider also.

 

I am not sure how to apply it with a ds who want to do it himself (without my "interference"), but am considering just telling him this, and perhaps the idea that doing some AoPS math, even if he does not do all, is still likely to improve his thinking skills for anything in life he may choose to do, and that he can decide whether to do, for example, some, none, or all of challenge problems as he wishes. What do you think?

 

I also am hazily recollecting that when he started to get stuck on Alcumus he had himself increased the difficulty of the settings level (I don't think to "insanely difficult" but higher than the lowest that I had initially chosen and that he had been moving along nicely with), and I am considering suggesting that he set it lower, but am concerned that that might be the sort of "interfering" he doesn't want from me. And maybe his own idea of starting over with whatever setting he himself chooses is actually better.   ?????

 

 

The various comments above about the classes have made me less inclined toward an online class as a solution (though also not against it since I know ds had been looking over the class list and was interested in that), but does anyone know what setting Alcumus is supposed to be on for classes, if that is a relevant question?

 

 

 

Part of the difficulty with ds, I think, is that he is "2E" and his super-bright side is bored by programs like Saxon, but his glitches on the dyslexia-etc. side also create more difficulties for him to overcome, and increase his frustration level.

[Pen]

You'll never know until you try!  

 

If you are using AOPS at home, I don' tthink you need both Khan and Alcumus.  I would perhaps consider focusing on one or the other.  Alcumus is awesome.  My son loves it. On library days, that would probably be a VERY productive use of his internet time, while Khan would probably not be as productive.  

 

We have done a lot of research on Khan and the reason it's gaining popularity seems to be the new smart learning system with Mastery Tracks, NOT the videos. In fact, the videos are by and large thought to be rather insipid and algorithm bases, with almost no explanations of why anything works.  So, it would sort of be the anti-AOPS.

 

Alcumus on the other hand, actually teaches your student smarter, and smarter, and smarter ways to think about math...every single problem type has a little box where it shows you the fastest, smartest way the problem could have been done. (that's a weird way to say it because any way to solve a problem is a good way but I mean it teaches you thought "tricks" so to speak)  

 

So while Khan would completely detract from AOPS, Alcumus would completely compliment it   :o)

 

Hope that helps.

 

I'm not sure exactly what ds has in mind, but I think in part having the two help to be less frustrated, and gives alternative ways of looking at things.

 

I don't think he will see himself as doing this or that program so much as doing his math, with the question being what will detract from or complement his math progress and understanding, overall and including that a program that he loathes seems to be counterproductive,  rather than what will detract from or complement a particular program.

 

He would probably do Khan mostly from library because he likes it and can do it from there (cannot do it at all from home other than watching a pre-downloaded video--I suspect that the difficulty of availability gives it a cache of specialness) and he likes  being able to make progress reasonably quickly with accumulation of humongous numbers of "energy points" and so on (what can I say? that sort of thing inspires him.) What he likes most about AoPS is the similar aspect of Alcumus with, I dunno, "quests" and "missions" (wish it gave more "points" per problem--it seems silly but many thousands of points seems more motivating than accumulating them in a lesser power of 10).  He does not know what he wants to do or be, so does not know what math he will need. He likes the idea of working his brain on "puzzle" type math more than being given Saxon type math drudgery. (Khan may be similarly plug and chug math, but if you do a first problem of a certain type right, the computer program recognizes that and moves you on, so that it does not end up being extended busy work on what you already know.)

 

Another reason for him to want to do khan A, I think, is that he was able to get to the halfway point with pre-algebra in just a few sessions. I don't know if that will continue, but I think he may like the idea of being basically done with that level, even if he is also adding to his thinking skills and deeper math understanding by also doing the same level with AoPS.

 

He has not yet seen an AoPS video, so getting those, which also involves library, will be new for him. I looked at some yesterday while in the city for his skating and I think he will like them a lot.

 

I also think his co-op geometry class may help change the way he views math. Many classes there are mom taught, but it is taught by a man who has been teaching math for many years (retired now, I think) in public schools and in a Talented and Gifted Program, and I suspect that the class may help ds start to see math as potentially interesting inherently, rather than just for the bells and whistles of achieving a "quest" or getting more "points" or leveling up type of "achievement" that motivates him on the computer.

 

Of course. Your student would still get a more rigorous math education based on problem solving and thinking than most other kids.

 

I have written elsewhere, but I repeat it here: AoPS is a curriculum, not a law. You have the right to adapt it to your student's needs. One kid lives and breathes math and cannot rest until he has solved every single challenge problem. Other kids do not have such a strong interest in math. My DS for example wants to be a professional athlete. I reserve the right to adapt AoPS, cut entire sections, and make selections in the review and challenge problems - he will still receive a better math high school education than I see in many of my college students who are science and engineering majors.

My DD is majoring in physics at a top university and excels in her classes; even she did only do a selection of challenge problems.

 

 

This is helpful to consider also.

 

I am not sure how to apply it with a ds who want to do it himself (without my "interference"), but am considering just telling him this, and perhaps the idea that doing some AoPS math, even if he does not do all, is still likely to improve his thinking skills for anything in life he may choose to do, and that he can decide whether to do, for example, some, none, or all of challenge problems as he wishes. What do you think?

 

I also am hazily recollecting that when he started to get stuck on Alcumus he had himself increased the difficulty of the settings level (I don't think to "insanely difficult" but higher than the lowest that I had initially chosen and that he had been moving along nicely with), and I am considering suggesting that he set it lower, but am concerned that that might be the sort of "interfering" he doesn't want from me. And maybe his own idea of starting over with whatever setting he himself chooses is actually better.   ?????

 

 

The various comments above about the classes have made me less inclined toward an online class as a solution (though also not against it since I know ds had been looking over the class list and was interested in that), but does anyone know what setting Alcumus is supposed to be on for classes, if that is a relevant question?

 

 

 

Part of the difficulty with ds, I think, is that he is "2E" and his super-bright side is bored by programs like Saxon, but his glitches on the dyslexia-etc. side also create more difficulties for him to overcome, and increase his frustration level.

[Pen]

Sorry about the double post. Can't seem to edit and still having a lot of trouble with the forums today.