Testimony Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I struggled with the fact that the characters called each other a dumb a--. I am feeling sooo guilty now that I did not check the book out and read it myself. You see, I got it from my library as a book on tape. I did not know what was coming. It was mentioned several times throughout the book. Oh! I feel like a horrid mother when I heard this. Oh! I know the word is in the KJV of the Bible, but I read it to them and change it to donkey. Oh! I feel icky!!! Feeling low, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenda in FL Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Tinkerbell in Peter Pan likes to use that term alot as well. I haven't read WInd in the Willows so I don't know exactly the manner in which it was used. But I was able to explain to my kids - who were young enough at the time that they hadn't heard it used any other way - that it was another name for donkey and that she was using it to call names. Who would want to be called a donkey. I wouldn't feel so bad - it will come up at times - and I think in these pieces of literature - you really could just equate it to someone calling a person a donkey - which doesn't seem quite as bad as they way it's used on modern times. And of course I emphasize that they should never call anyone that themselves! Hmm - I seem to remember that its also used in the recording of the Carnival of the Animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Because dumb ass does not appear anywhere in the original text. I just scanned the entire thing and found silly ass, old ass and "what a stupid ass I am" but no dumb ass, which in my mind, has become a profane expression. That is, it is an insult in and of itself, and really has nothing to do with the donkey allusion. I think toad really is an ass, though that's an insult to asses, frankly. In this context, imho, it's appropriate. I am very sorry you had a hard time with this. Dulce Domum is my all time favorite chapter of any book every written and I read it again and again, every year at Christmas time. It's just so sad to me that one word would upset you to the point that you cannot appreciate the brilliance of this book.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Yes, I'm befuddled, too, as we just read the original this year and also didn't find the expression you mentioned, but the one that Nicole mentions. There are other illustrated children's versions of this book which have deleted this language. Thornton Burgess books are similar, without any such language (I think - I haven't read everyone one yet).... Regena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMCassandra Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I don't remember this in the original . . . and I'm usually quite alert to these kinds of issues . . . puzzled here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommybee Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I don't remember any such thing either.........we listened to it on tape the first time and we really loved the story. Although I will admit to letting my mind wander when I listen to these things, but my kids never mentioned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 ...this won't seem as significant to you in a few days. And, I can honestly say that I'm quite certain it's not even a blip in your childrens' minds right now. They don't attach everything that you do to those words. Just let it roll off you like water off a duck. It will be okay. Truly. You're not a bad mother. Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imeverywoman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 he gets up at the crack of dawn to read it before school begins. He ADORES it!!! I've just sent him to get me the book. Oh BOTHER!!!:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imeverywoman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I think toad really is an ass, though that's an insult to asses, frankly. In this context, imho, it's appropriate. For some reason, I found this absolutely hilarious and would like to thank you for a much needed laugh for today! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I struggled with the fact that the characters called each other a dumb a--. I am feeling sooo guilty now that I did not check the book out and read it myself. You see, I got it from my library as a book on tape. I did not know what was coming. It was mentioned several times throughout the book. Oh! I feel like a horrid mother when I heard this. Oh! I know the word is in the KJV of the Bible, but I read it to them and change it to donkey. Oh! I feel icky!!! There is a difference, though, between an as* as used in the Bible, and the way it is used in Peter Pan, and "dumb as*." Maybe it's just that we Americans have made it a swear word, when it didn't start out that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMindy Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 a lot of British authors use the word ass and it doesn't (or at least didn't used to) have the same connotations as it does now. CS Lewis used the word ass in at least one of his Narnia series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 It's only mildly pejorative: 'silly ass' is quite affectionate. The British word for backside is arse. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lorna Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 It's only mildly pejorative: 'silly ass' is quite affectionate. The British word for backside is arse. Laura Yes 'ass' is just another word for donkey. So it simply means 'you silly donkey'. Very, very mild, although one shouldn't call people names. ;) Regards, Another Brit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Another Brit Let's not talk about the trans-Atlantic problems with the word 'fanny'. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 My dad's English, and his use of as* has a definite insult-type vibe, but not as profane as, say, assh*le. I just see it as an English-ism. And I read it enthusiastically! But I do tell kiddos not to use it themselves, as it is name-calling. Roald Dahl is another one of those English authors that use the term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 I guess it was hard hearing that scream out on the tape. Yes, you are right it does say, "you silly a--" or "stop being an a--." You were right that Toad is an a--. His character is horrendous. I do appreciate the book's literature beauty. I just felt badly that I chose to do this book on tape. I normally read books aloud to my children. I got lazy these last few month and we have been listening to the books on tape. When I read Peter Pan, I changed the word to donkey because I saw it coming. I did not see this one coming, so I was taken a back a bit. Blessings, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lorna Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Let's not talk about the trans-Atlantic problems with the word 'fanny'. Laura Let's not :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraceinMD Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 ...or pants (as in, "Well, I'm certainly not wearing any pants!" (when I apparently meant 'slacks'.)). I lived in Hants for a while and got into loads of (completely) innocent difficulty with my good old "separated by a common language" English! And btw, Laura, thanks for all your advice about China - we had a great trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 And btw, Laura, thanks for all your advice about China - we had a great trip! You're welcome - I'm glad you had a good trip. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I feel I owe you an apology. I was not polite, and I'm sorry. I don't know what happened to me, but I totally had a knee-jerk reaction to your post. And it's not like I've never been taken aback by something in a "classic" book. When I read the Iliad, I was completely shocked, and thought, if this is the foundation of Western civilization, we are completely scr*wed. Achiles disgusted me. I imagined him stomping his little foot, Mommy, mommy! He stole my concubine! I was horrified. It made me question classical education. So. This is just to say that I know how it feels to be surprised and taken aback. I hope that as Doran suggested, this feeling you had has passed. Nicole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 It is OK. It makes sense that Toad is an a--. I am not upset about the response. Why I was upset is it was on tape, I knew nothing about the story and I was not reading it aloud so I could not change it. It is not the first time stuff like this came up. I never forget the time when my older son decided to read Aesop and they had that word. My son was about 6 years old at the time. There are pros and cons to classical education and like other stuff, we just have to hope that are children will develop discernment. I guess that is why we have them in a classical education. Our hope is that through the stages of logic and rhetoric, they will know whether things are right from wrong and make a good choice. Apology accepted. I forgive you. Blessings, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 It is not the first time stuff like this came up. I never forget the time when my older son decided to read Aesop and they had that word. My son was about 6 years old at the time. There are pros and cons to classical education and like other stuff, we just have to hope that are children will develop discernment. I guess that is why we have them in a classical education. Our hope is that through the stages of logic and rhetoric, they will know whether things are right from wrong and make a good choice.I just don't get where the problem lies with the word ass. Can't you just say, it means different things to different people/cultures, one of the meanings is profane and we shouldn't use the word that way? Why does one meaning taint all usages? You won't get far in British kids lit (and there's some marvelous stuff there) if you strive to avoid the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I just don't get where the problem lies with the word ass. Can't you just say, it means different things to different people/cultures, one of the meanings is profane and we shouldn't use the word that way? Why does one meaning taint all usages? You won't get far in British kids lit (and there's some marvelous stuff there) if you strive to avoid the word. Exactly what I was coming in to say. This is precisely why, if I am teaching Classic Literature, I will never use abridged versions of any book. Ever. Only unabridge, uncut and unedited. If that means I have to explain that the word "ass" means something entirely different in the culture that this book was written during, than it does now, then so be it. It has only become profane because the American language has changed so many meanings. Changing it to "stupid donkey" changes the entire meaning of the text it's written in. And BritLit aside, how will you ever teach Huck Finn or Song of the South or any book like that, if you find the "N" word profane (which it is, however, in context, it belongs)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I just don't get where the problem lies with the word ass. Can't you just say, it means different things to different people/cultures, one of the meanings is profane and we shouldn't use the word that way? Why does one meaning taint all usages? You won't get far in British kids lit (and there's some marvelous stuff there) if you strive to avoid the word. That's exactly what I've told my kids. My dh read aloud Wind in the Willows a few years ago, and we got quite a few giggles out of that word. It came up again last month in a version of Aesop's fables, and I just reminded the kids that it's not polite to call anyone an ass today, but when this translation was done the word wasn't considered crude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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