redsquirrel Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I am taking a bit of a mental break. I've been reading some really big books, and I have a big one coming. So, I've been having fun with my kindle and borrowing books I usually don't bother with. So I've read a book on design this weekend...it seemed to be a glorified shopping list, lol. And I am read "The Madwoman in the Volvo" about one woman's experience with... I guess menopause, but there was a LOT of personal drama mixed in there. I didn't like it, but it was a fast read so I just zoomed through it. Today I am glossing through a holiday decorating book, which feels cozy on a nippy fall day. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Speaking of Coates' book, issues of race, alongside YA reading makes me think I should mention a YA book I read a few years ago. I thought it was great & recently picked up a copy from the library for my ds to read (but he hasn't started it yet). It is The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing by M. T. Anderson. I may have mentioned this book previously, but I can't remember. I can't remember tons of the details re: content so please make your own decisions for your YA readers; I do think I remember one scene referencing sex. Anyway, the book was good enough that I actually plan to read the second one at some point. (Maybe I need to re-read the original one first, though.)Oh, do I see something about 18th century and letters :lol:? Sounds interesting, but apparently it hasn't reached the Netherlands yet. Not a copy to be found anywhere. Too bad, I could use an interesting 18th century-themed book, to get me over my annoyance with Pamela :D. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Of Cocktails and Penguins: A Summer in Antarctica from Behind the Bar, by Tanja Plasil - Stacia, I think you found this for me when I was kvetching about finding something for my continent quest but not wanting to endure an Ill-Fated Expedition narrative. This is a memoir of a female bartender on a former Russian icebreaker/submarine locator now re-tooled (ish) to run tours to the continent. I regret to report that its major virtue is its brevity, lol... Heliopolis, by James Scudamore - this was another Stacia recommendation - fiction that ricochets between the upper-upper Brazilian crust and its harshest favelas, with a narrator with a foot in both worlds.... This started out very strong, though its ending left me unsatisfied. (Despite its nod toward personal lurching-toward0redemption, which is usually my weakness....) I am pleased to report that with the bartending book I have now COMPLETED by continent goal for the year. The others, not so much.... Ruh-roh! <said in my best Scooby Doo voice> Hmmm. I bought Of Cocktails & Penguins at the same time, but haven't read it yet. Your review doesn't bode well except for the fact that I may be craving short books right now, lol. Yeah, I get your point about Heliopolis. I thought it was neat re: the contrast between the ultra-rich & the favelas, though where the ending was heading might not have been entirely unpredictable. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Stacia and Pam, your reading blows me away. Your posts on them alone are contributing to my education. Thank you once again for the comments and links. Obviously I,m doing my serious reading severely condenced and previously digested lol. But it is just the right amount to think about, so I don,t forget that this stuff is part of my life, too. I usually absorb it in nonreading form but am not doing that at the moment. This keeps me remembering. Nan 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I started typing up ideas for next year and got partway through them before running out of time... so here is what I got typed. I really hadn't thought it out all that much, but most likely one or two a month, depending on how long they are. Realized while working up the post this would be a good idea for armchair traveling for next year - east and west of the prime meridian, north and south of the equator. Which brings to mind since there are only 8 weeks left to the year :eek: (where'd it go) now would be a good time to start brainstorming for 2016 - readalongs, ideas, themes, authors, mini challenges, etc. Everybody put on their thinking caps, start flinging ideas and see what sticks. I love the ideas suggested last week! A few others that came to mind: *African American literature, history, etc (inspired in part by the reading many of us have been doing lately) *Native American literature, history, etc (inspired by my mile long TBR list in this area) *a poetry focus for national poetry month - perhaps with a different theme or region for each week *I love the Moby Dick theme, but wondered about combining it with a broader ocean theme, to include perhaps a week of ocean related nonfiction (Cousteau, Safina, etc). I have been neglecting some of my nonfiction reading these past few years... *related: perhaps a few other regions could be done similarly - I felt the geographic setting was large part of No Country for Old Men, for example, and since we're looking at combining a major literary work with its setting, perhaps we could come up with a few more. *Handcrafts: textiles, pottery, woodwork etc: I read Women's Work: The First 2000 Years - Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times and Interwoven Globe: The Worldwide Textile Trade 1500-1800 the other year when Jane was talking about textiles and I realized how little knowledge or connection I have to craft work. ...and both of these helped me see how intrinsic cloth is to understanding some areas of history, economics, sociology, etc. ( a few books on my TBR list: The Age of Homespun, Empire of Cotton (which ties right in to some of the AA books on my lists), Cloth and Human Experience) ...and I still have the book Jane recommended a few years ago Red Brick, Black Mountain, White Clay on my TBR lists - and a desire to look more at pottery... which, of course, is closely tied to archaeology... And then there's Shop Class as Soul Craft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work & Why We Make Things and Why it Matters & Craftsmanship & Michael Pollan's A Place of My Own & The Real Thing: Essays on Making in the Modern World all, in various ways, look at these topics from a broader perspective. *Women's literature: I want to extend this year's attempts, and encourage others to join me! *Epics: there are so many, from so many countries and time periods, that I want to read or revisit (including a new translation of the Iliad, the only non-Lattimore translation I've been able to read more than a small amount of without great distress!) *Pairing of a work and adaptations: since I was just looking at the new translation of the Iliad there are a number of Iliad related books, plays, and poems that come to mind (some I've read, some on my TBR list): Cassandra, All Day Permanent Red, Ransom, War and the Iliad, War Music, Memorial, Achilles in Vietnam, Our Ajax, The Theater of War, War that Killed Achilles, Troilus and Cressida (by Chaucer and/or Shakespeare), Barrico's An Iliad, Dismissal of the Grecian Envoys, File on H, Songs of the Kings. ...and then there are the plays... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Ruh-roh! <said in my best Scooby Doo voice> Hmmm. I bought Of Cocktails & Penguins at the same time, but haven't read it yet. Your review doesn't bode well except for the fact that I may be craving short books right now, lol. Yeah, I get your point about Heliopolis. I thought it was neat re: the contrast between the ultra-rich & the favelas, though where the ending was heading might not have been entirely unpredictable. on Cocktails: Well, it does have a quite unusual number of exclamation points! If that's a turn-on for you! I don't know that I've ever read a book with such an impressive proportion of total sentences that end in exclamation points! I'm sure there's a niche for that somewhere! :lol: On Heliopolis: I'm glad I read it; and I do understand why it was nominated for the Booker. Both worlds are credibly drawn, and the narrator, too, is believable... and the complicity of both Ze and Oscar across the worlds... much to admire, there. But the ending did not ring psychologically true to me, even though I generally am a sucker for such endings... too rapid a transformation with too little real engagement with the other side. I guess I believe in gradual itty bitty step redemption, not abrupt turn-around wholesale epiphanies. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You might or might not agree with the choices, but here is a list from BuzzFeed of 31 Books That Will Restore Your Faith In Humanity Regards, Kareni 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 on Cocktails: Well, it does have a quite unusual number of exclamation points! If that's a turn-on for you! I don't know that I've ever read a book with such an impressive proportion of total sentences that end in exclamation points! I'm sure there's a niche for that somewhere! :lol: I'll brace myself before I read it! :lol: You might or might not agree with the choices, but here is a list from BuzzFeed of 31 Books That Will Restore Your Faith In Humanity Interesting list. I've read a few of them & many more have been on my to-read list forever. I have to disagree w/ Life of Pi being on there. Ugh. Seriously, I still don't get the love for nor the 'redemption' of that book. I just don't get it. :huh: 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Eliana, re: epics. Have you read Sunjata? I read that one a year or two ago w/ two different versions in the book (as told by two different griots). Fascinating. Worth reading. Would love to see your list of contenders for this one. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I've been trying to read more African American literature this year, but the discussions here have inspired me to expand that to include more nonfiction and reflection. No Cause for Indictment (Thank you, Stacia!): This isn't an easy read, on many levels, but I believe it is an urgently important one. The Newark riots it chronicles are old history for most of us, but the dissection of its roots has insights that are sadly still very applicable today. Highly recommended. (And now I need to pull the LeRoi Jones plays off the shelf and actually read them) The African Company Presents Richard III by Carlyle Brown: Set ~40 years before the Civil War in NYC & based on the true story of the African Company. Earning their bread with Satire/Political Satires of white high society, the African Company came to be known for debunking the sacred status of the English classics (which many politically and racially motivated critics said were beyond the scope of black actors). Inside the Company's ranks, similar debates raged about whether to mimic the English tongue, or to provide a more lively interpretation of white theater by acknowledging the vibrancy of the black experience (in the words of the African Company's manager: "Say ya Shakespeare like ya want"). Shakespeare is the chosen cultural battleground in this inventive retelling of a little known, yet pivotal event in the African Company's history. Knowing they are always under prejudicial pressures from white society, and facing their own internal shakeups, the African Company battles for time, space, audiences and togetherness. Their competition, Stephen Price, an uptown, Broadway-type impresario, is producing Richard III at the same time as the African Company's production is in full swing. Price has promised a famous English actor overflowing audiences if he plays Richard in Price's theatre. Fearing the competition of the African Company's production, which is garnering large white audiences, Price manipulates the law and closes down the theatre. The Company rebounds and finds a space right next door to Price's theatre. At the rise of curtain of the next performance, Price causes the arrest of some of the actors in a trumped-up riot charge. The play ends with the Company, surviving, its integrity intact, and about to launch an equally progressive new chapter in the American theatre: They'll soon be producing the first black plays written by black Americans of their day. Soldier's Play by Charles Fuller: Dramatically a much stronger play than the one above... also much more unsettling, fewer clear lines, very powerful. A black sergeant cries out in the night, "They still hate you," then is shot twice and falls dead. Set in 1944 at Fort Neal, a segregated army camp in Louisiana, Charles Fuller's forceful drama--which won the Pulitzer Prize in 1982 and has been regularly seen in both its original stage and its later screen version--tracks the investigation of this murder. A Soldier's Play is more than a detective story: it is a tough, incisive exploration of racial tensions and ambiguities among blacks and between blacks and whites that gives no easy answers and assigns no simple blame. Desdemona's Fire by Ruth Ellen Kocher: I picked this up because of the subject matter of the poetry (most revolve around the author's emotions and experiences as the daughter of a white mother and a black father), but checked it out for the images, the allusions, the mixture of heart and intellect. ETA: I left off one: The Ground on Which I Stand by August Wilson: I believe this is the text of a speech Wilson gave. I have to admit that I like his plays better - they have more nuance - but this is a valuable (and, sadly, still highly relevant) call for valuing AA art, art drawn from their unique experiences and culture. and, African rather than African American: Where Fire Speaks: A Visit with the Himba: I started this to learn more about this small Nambian tribe, but I recommend it to you all for its musings on progress, culture, voyeuristic tourism, and much more... all without offering any real answers, and all with a needed awareness of how little they knew from such a brief visit. I should have a few more minutes, but I am going to post this so I don't lose it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Eliana, re: epics. Have you read Sunjata? I read that one a year or two ago w/ two different versions in the book (as told by two different griots). Fascinating. Worth reading. Would love to see your list of contenders for this one. Yes, but not in a very long time. ...I should revisit it next year... and I would love to try to find a network of related works, but I wonder if there are many, at least that we could find in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 *Epics: there are so many, from so many countries and time periods, that I want to read or revisit (including a new translation of the Iliad, the only non-Lattimore translation I've been able to read more than a small amount of without great distress!) *Pairing of a work and adaptations: since I was just looking at the new translation of the Iliad there are a number of Iliad related books, plays, and poems that come to mind (some I've read, some on my TBR list): Cassandra, All Day Permanent Red, Ransom, War and the Iliad, War Music, Memorial, Achilles in Vietnam, Our Ajax, The Theater of War, War that Killed Achilles, Troilus and Cressida (by Chaucer and/or Shakespeare), Barrico's An Iliad, Dismissal of the Grecian Envoys, File on H, Songs of the Kings. ...and then there are the plays... I especially love this idea - we're planning an Ancients year for 2016-2017, and I need to read, re-read, and find paired works for the epics. I'd love to spend the year working through a list like this! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 This was not a week of light and cheery reading. Beast: Riding the Rails and Dodging Narcos on the Migrant Trail by Oscar Martinez: My greatest complaint about this (very important, very readable) book is that it focuses almost exclusively on the area/experiences south of the US-Mexican border (and the brief coverage north of the border was *much* rosier tinted than the little I have read), but then I realized this was written in Spanish for a Mexican audience... This has been on my TBR list since it made the Best of 2014 lists, but it was No Country for Old Men which made me actually pick it up. I wanted to see a little bit of the reality out of which some of that nightmare originated. This gave me that glimpse, but was also a much more hopeful angle of view Jason and the Argonauts: This is a (relatively) new translation of Apollonius's Argonautica. I had started rereading an older version the other year when I was immersed in Medea, but didn't like the translation and then when I read about this one, I set the older one aside until I could get a copy of this one. This is a splendid translation! Absolutely marvelous. ...and perhaps it is just as well I am reading the earlier part of the story near (at?) the end of my Medea reading - it is certainly less tragic a story - though the seeds of that one are clear here... and Jason's stunning lack of heroism is unmissable... at every event except the ambush of Medea's brother, the one to take the lead, take action, have an idea, speak up is never Jason... though it is often Medea, once she is in the picture. ...but the hero who dominates the story, even after he is no longer present, is Hercules.... Strange Interlude by Eugene O'Neill: *Blech* O'Neill is always depressing, but this (very, very, very long) play is also icky, and the treatment of the main character Nina was very disturbing. I cannot recommend this - there are many powerful, brilliant (and, yes, depressing) O'Neill's from which to choose, avoid this one unless you are a completionist, or want to read a play that, for all its flaws, was part of the development of not only O'Neill's dramatic work, but modern American theater. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf by Albee: I hated this as a teen. *hated* it. Saw no purpose, no value, just pointless nastiness. It is still caustic and ugly and depressing... but now I see a value, a point, a glimmer of purpose. I'm not sure what that says about my development as a person.... JB by Archibald MacLeish: A retelling of Job... and even more heartbreaking and disturbing than that description would lead one to expect. Very, very well done, but not a version in which G-d comes off very well. ...but, I think, an important, powerful play. Make and Break by Frayn: If you want inspiring Frayn, read Copenhagen, if you want hilarious, read Noises Off, if you want cerebral without the transcendence, read Democracy... and if you want muddling, ordinary, mucking up our lives humanity with our fumbling attempts at connection and empathy read this one. I've listed them, btw, in my order of personal preference, but I think Frayn is brilliant (and I wish I could find a copy of his novel Sweet Dreams that you've been praising for years, Stacia!) ...and, most depressing for last: August: Osage County by Tracy Letts: I didn't like this play. At all. I would rather reread Strange Interludes a dozen times than experience this one again. It is very popular, it is a Pulitzer Prize winner (so was Strange Interludes, I believe), but every fiber of being recoiled from it. Perhaps it is my lack of appreciation for some types of black humor? I didn't see much to laugh at here at all... and I can see humor redeeming the ugliness. (In the O'Neill, much though I disliked it, there was a striving toward better choices, despite the ickiness that often won out, but I didn't see that here either) ymmv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 And the, if not cheery, at least less depressing reads from last week: The One and Only Ivan: this kids' book has been on my list since it was on best of 2013 lists (yes, it takes me a long time to make it to books on my lists sometimes!). I loved this bittersweet story of a captive gorilla and I think it managed to be both fairly truthful while still offering more of a happy ending than is realistic (in part by portraying the resolution as more rosy tinted than it would be in reality). Selected Later Poems of Marie Luise Kaschnitz: discovered while browsing a small bookstore... not sure I would ever have discovered this slim volume of powerful poetry otherwise. ...and now I want to track down some of Kashnitz's fiction... The Salish Sea: The photography is this book is stunning. The text is fairly dull... which is a shame because I had hoped I'd found a book to put on my 'to buy' lists... Offshore by Penelope Fitzgerald: The only non-kids' novel I completed last week (though I am in process with so many wonderful ones!) This is the bleakest Fitzgerald I've read - which given that it was (apparently) based on some her lived experiences living in a houseboat community on the Thames made me sad for her. The characterizations are spare, but insightful, the setting is vivid, the plot barely present, the prose strong (as always with Fitzgerald). It is a Booker winner, which surprised me. I don't recommend it as a starting place for Fitzgerald, but I'm not actually sorry I read it (though I can't say I liked it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I just started The Nine Tailors. It's #11 in the Lord Peter Wimsey series. So ... there's a lot of information on bell ringing. Potentially too much. Like the first three chapters. I'm thinking an editor should have cut some of that out. I'm really looking forward to someone getting murdered. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Beast: Riding the Rails and Dodging Narcos on the Migrant Trail by Oscar Martinez: My greatest complaint about this (very important, very readable) book is that it focuses almost exclusively on the area/experiences south of the US-Mexican border (and the brief coverage north of the border was *much* rosier tinted than the little I have read), but then I realized this was written in Spanish for a Mexican audience... This has been on my TBR list since it made the Best of 2014 lists, but it was No Country for Old Men which made me actually pick it up. I wanted to see a little bit of the reality out of which some of that nightmare originated. This gave me that glimpse, but was also a much more hopeful angle of view <snip> Make and Break by Frayn: If you want inspiring Frayn, read Copenhagen, if you want hilarious, read Noises Off, if you want cerebral without the transcendence, read Democracy... and if you want muddling, ordinary, mucking up our lives humanity with our fumbling attempts at connection and empathy read this one. I've listed them, btw, in my order of personal preference, but I think Frayn is brilliant (and I wish I could find a copy of his novel Sweet Dreams that you've been praising for years, Stacia!) Thanks again for mentioning Beast. I have it on my to-read list for my (hopeful) cartel reading sometime in 2016. I hope you manage to track down Sweet Dreams someday, Eliana. I think you would enjoy it. (In fact, I think many BaWers would enjoy it. It's just a really delightful little book.) I keep meaning to read another book by him.... I'm really looking forward to someone getting murdered. Got some suppressed rage going on, Amy? ;) :p :lol: Jane & Rose, I may join you in some Darwin-related reading in 2016. Man oh man, my reading list for 2016 just keeps growing & growing.... 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I just started The Nine Tailors. It's #11 in the Lord Peter Wimsey series. So ... there's a lot of information on bell ringing. Potentially too much. Like the first three chapters. I'm thinking an editor should have cut some of that out. I'm really looking forward to someone getting murdered. Got some suppressed rage going on, Amy? ;) :p :lol: LOL. I think it's the bells driving me to it! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Amy, I loved the bell part of The Nine Tailors. The physicality and orchestration of traditional English bell ringing is rather interesting to me which is probably why this book may be my favorite Lord Peter novel. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is coming along slowly, but it is not a book to be rushed. 🗻 I've decided this guy is truly a navel gazer extraordinaire and I will have to change the phrase over my avatar. In some ways the book makes me think of an Ishiguro novel where the narrator is unreliable when talking about himself. On the other hand, he has some fascinating insights to the nature of education and how we define abstract concepts like "quality." Then it's occurred to me to ask what this guy thinks he is doing. Contemplating all this stuff drove him crazy. Is he trying to drag us along with him? 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumto2 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I just started The Nine Tailors. It's #11 in the Lord Peter Wimsey series. So ... there's a lot of information on bell ringing. Potentially too much. Like the first three chapters. I'm thinking an editor should have cut some of that out. I'm really looking forward to someone getting murdered. Look at it this way you now speak my dc's language! :lol: 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Bell ringing is not what I thought it was. Pretty cool. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Finished Henry James, The Wings of the Dove, one of the best books I've ever read. Well underway on John Henry Faulk's Fear on Trial, the author's account of being hounded and blacklisted from his job at CBS by self-appointed anti-Communist watchdogs in the McCarthy era. Next will be The Good Soldier Å vejk, I hope in the next few days. re: Wings of the Dove: That is a James novel I have yet to read... but that is sitting on the shelf... re: Faulk: that looks like a very important book to read... adding it to my list of 'non-fiction read asap'. Thank you! re: The Good Soldier Svejk: a book that has been languishing on my tbr lists and my shelves for far too long... but I have to finish some of the other (wonderful!) fiction I have in (very gradual) progress first. (and how do you get the special characters?) What an appropriate topic! Last week I was out of the armchair and in a kayak or my hiking boots exploring a magnificent area west of the prime meridian: the Eastern coastline of Baja California Sur. We did a week long small boat cruise on the Sea of Cortes. Very little reading was accomplished. I was too busy watching birds and taking in the colors of the volcanic rocks and cacti or the brilliantly colored fish. This was my first crossing of the Tropic of Cancer. Jane, welcome back! ...and I love the photos you've shared so far! It is such a joy to hear about your adventures. I finished The Things We Carried by Tim O'Brien. Wow! An easy read, in that I didn't have to look up words or untangle sentences. A tough read emotionally, and also because the way he "blur the lines between reality and fiction" is kind of a mindcuss. At first, I think I knew the book was fiction, but then after some chapters went by, I started second guessing that, and I had to look it up. Eventually I got to some chapters/sentences where he explicitly addresses the fiction/nonfiction and truth/fact lines. O'Brien states that just telling the facts doesn't get to the truth; you have to embellish it to make readers understand an event on an emotional level. So, though a list of facts may be truer in that everything listed factually happened, a story that embellishes those facts may be truer with regard to the understanding of the human condition that we gain from reading it. I still want to sit down with him and a highlighter and get him to highlight all the facts. IMO, this is a book everyone should read. Added to my list - this list of essential modern nonfiction is becoming very long... and I have yet to add one that I would suspect might be cheery. I decided that Travels with Henry had to be a book title, and it is. See here. That looks fascinating - and the review is delightful! I loved the last bit: "Overall, he admits to liking as well as admiring Henry Kissinger. And, if you ignore Vietnam and Chile, as Valeriani does, if you have no qualms about Angola (where Kissinger was 'thwarted' by a Congress 'hallucinating over the prospects of another Vietnam') and take no stand on the wiretaps--well, then, Kissinger might seem as estimable as he is entertaining." Thank you, love. I think I would like to read this someday. (Though, VC, I am sorry to say I am not tempted to travel with Miller to the Tropics of Cancer....) I am still struggling with the aftermath of our family's emergency trip and the reason for it, so reading is on the back burner. I'm a slow reader anyway so this is a problem. :grouphug: I wish there were something comforting to say. Wishing you, and all who mourn, peace. I finished The Gap of Time. I loved it. Can I give something 6 stars? As a stand-alone story, without reference to Shakespeare's Tale, I would have loved it as a story of love and loss and forgiveness and second chances. But as a reimagining of The Winter's Tale, it is perfect. I love the changes she made, the depth she added. I love the ambiguities in the ending. I love how Winterson interjected a bit of herself in at the end - she was a foundling, and has loved the play her whole life. I like her explanation of what Shakespeare was doing in this play, and the themes of forgiveness in his later plays. Jeanette Winterson has been one of my favorite writers ever since I read Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit in the early 90s. I lost sight of her for a few years and have missed a whole set of her books. I think it's time for a retrospective, I think I'm going to read over her whole body of work in order for the next year. I think she's absolutely brilliant. I had started it, but set it aside... you've convinced me to try again. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 You might or might not agree with the choices, but here is a list from BuzzFeed of 31 Books That Will Restore Your Faith In Humanity I've read a bunch of those. I agree with some, not others. I've got the sequel to Wonder (Auggie and Me) sitting downstairs fresh from the library waiting to be read. I've been told If I Stay is a good book. The movie was, quite possibly, the worst acted and worst directed film I have ever seen. I kept thinking it would get better. I didn't. Today I finished reading Moloka'i by Alan Brennert. It's historical fiction following the life of a girl sent to Kalaupapa on Moloka'i when it is discovered she has leprosy around age 7. Her character is a combination of many real people who lived there. All I know about Moloka'i before reading the book is my uncle visited there, probably in the early 50s (my mom's not sure exactly when). Uncle Lawrence could not bear to stay away from the residents. There was a prohibition on residents mixing with visitors. However, my uncle was a priest and so he could get away with going to them and blessing them and serving them in any way he could. He cherished his visit to Moloka'i for the rest of his life. The book sent me googling to learn more about leprosy and Father Damien (who was already dead by the time the book starts) and Moloka'i itself. It's always so fulfilling to read a book that is entertaining but educational as well. The book is not a quick read and the story unfolds pretty slowly. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I read a cartel-related, fictional book today (as recommended by crstarlette): Down the Rabbit Hole by Juan Pablo Villalobos. It looks at drug lord life through the eyes of the 7yo son of a drug kingpin in Mexico. What starts out as potentially-charming narration by a precocious child quickly turns chilling & disturbing. I think the book is deceptively simple (since the narration mimics a 7yo, plus its short length) but the deeper observations & messages are heartbreaking. It hit hard for me. Maybe because I'm a parent? A simple, yet immensely hard, book. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 You might or might not agree with the choices, but here is a list from BuzzFeed of 31 Books That Will Restore Your Faith In Humanity Regards, Kareni Huh, apparently I don't do inspiring. I've only read five books on the list. Four were good. One, The Kite Runner, *definitely* didn't restore my faith in humanity. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Huh, apparently I don't do inspiring. I've only read five books on the list. Four were good. I guess I don't either. I've read two on the list, maybe add a little more because I've read the first Harry Potter book (but not the rest of the series). I do have more than two on my to-read list, but I've never gotten around to reading them. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well, I have read more on that list than I expected. But there is one I really did not like, and didn't find it 'uplifting' in any way, and a couple that I also liked very much,but not because they restored anything, lol. I liked them because they were great reads. And there is at least one that is the sort of book that I avoid at all costs. I will admit that "Tuesdays with Morrie" is not something that I am ever going to read. If it's been made into a Hallmark or Lifetime movie, it's just not my cup of tea. If that makes me a crank, then so be it. And I have one on my kindle. I got Tenth of December by George Saunders today. I'll let you know if I find it restores my faith in humanity. Not that I have lost it or anything. But, I did decide that 48 hours of reading design and decorating books is enough for me. The Saunders book is short stories. So, I can put it down easily when my big book comes in via Overdrive. And I love short stories, I don't think they get enough love. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks again for mentioning Beast. I have it on my to-read list for my (hopeful) cartel reading sometime in 2016. ******************************* I hope you manage to track down Sweet Dreams someday, Eliana. I think you would enjoy it. (In fact, I think many BaWers would enjoy it. It's just a really delightful little book.) I keep meaning to read another book by him.... ************************************ Jane & Rose, I may join you in some Darwin-related reading in 2016. Man oh man, my reading list for 2016 just keeps growing & growing.... You're welcome! It is an easier read than the Newark one and less dense than The Fire This Time is seeming to be. It lacks both the volume of data NCfI has and the depth of background and analysis I'm seeing so far in TFTT... but it gives, I think, an overview of migrant experiences on the Mexican portion of their journey and a glimpse at some of the situations people are coming from. *********************** I am very excited! Sweet Dreams has been reissued, so I can place a purchase request with my library! **************************** I might be up for some Darwin reading too.... and oh, my, yes, but my tbr list for 2016 is already absurd..... which is wonderful! I especially love this idea - we're planning an Ancients year for 2016-2017, and I need to read, re-read, and find paired works for the epics. I'd love to spend the year working through a list like this! The Iliad, Odyssey, & the Aeneid have such an absurd wealth of choices, even just within the range of ancient lit. Are you looking at any others? The Iliad is the only ancient epic on my possible list for next year, but I will enjoy hearing about your re-encounters. :) You might or might not agree with the choices, but here is a list from BuzzFeed of 31 Books That Will Restore Your Faith In Humanity Regards, Kareni From the ones I have read and the ones I have read about, I am fairly certain they are sing an entirely different definition of resorting faith in humanity than I do... and I would say that even subtracting the books I hate from consideration.... but what an interesting list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Of all the many responses to Ta-Nehisi Coates' book that have been burbling since I read it back in August, the one that I keep coming back to most often is his idea that racism precedes race -- that the human *desire to dominate* comes first, and then we cast around for some Other to do it to and some justification to base it on. "Americans believe in the reality of ‘race’ as a defined, indubitable feature of the natural world. Racism — the need to ascribe bone-deep features to people and then humiliate, reduce and destroy them — inevitably follows from this inalterable condition. In this way, racism is rendered as the innocent daughter of Mother Nature, and one is left to deplore the Middle Passage or the Trail of Tears the way one deplores an earthquake… But race is the child of racism, not the father. And the process of naming ‘the people’ has never been a matter of genealogy and physiognomy as one of hierarchy. Difference in hue and hair is old. But the belief in the pre-eminence of hue and hair, the notion that these factors… signify deeper attributes, which are indelible — this is the new idea at the heart of these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, to believe that they are white." My browser crashed mid-response, which means I can imagine I would have been more coherent.... I haven't read Coates yet (I want to at least get a little further into The Fire This Time before starting it), but I have started Racecraft which also challenges our received truths on race: Most people assume that racism grows from a perception of human difference: the fact of race gives rise to the practice of racism. Sociologist Karen E. Fields and historian Barbara J. Fields argue otherwise: the practice of racism produces the illusion of race, through what they call "racecraft." And this phenomenon is intimately entwined with other forms of inequality in American life. So pervasive are the devices of racecraft in American history, economic doctrine, politics, and everyday thinking that the presence of racecraft itself goes unnoticed. ...but I cannot (yet?) accept a definition of racism that requires kavana, intention. ..and, perhaps this is quibbling (and I haven't read Coates's explication), but dominate is an awfully *active* intention filled word. ...and my perception has been that racism seems more rooted in insecurity/fear/vulnerability. But then I guess it depends what aspect you are looking at. In The New Jim Crow, the author discusses the shift our country experienced as, she asserted, a direct response to coordinated protests against economic injustice that spanned the (at that point she says not very existent) 'color line'. I think it would be fair to characterize those responses as having a intent to dominate - though the use of 'race' was, from her description, very much a means rather than a goal. ...but the people who bought into it were, it seems to me, motivated by their own fear, their economic insecurities and the desire to hold onto the little they had... and when an 'other' was presented to them as threat, it shifted the focus to the (manufactured) competition and from those who were profiting. ...but I just can't see that as rooted in a desire to dominate. tangent: I don't see the awareness of difference, that even very young children have, as intrinsically bad, nor the tendency towards tribal thinking. I see it as a starting place - just as we start as little ones very centered on our needs, desires, etc, and then learn to use that awareness to see that others also have needs and desires, I think we can expand our tribal instincts to see all of humanity as part of our tribe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 My browser crashed mid-response, which means I can imagine I would have been more coherent.... I haven't read Coates yet (I want to at least get a little further into The Fire This Time before starting it), but I have started Racecraft which also challenges our received truths on race: ...but I cannot (yet?) accept a definition of racism that requires kavana, intention. ..and, perhaps this is quibbling (and I haven't read Coates's explication), but dominate is an awfully *active* intention filled word. ...and my perception has been that racism seems more rooted in insecurity/fear/vulnerability. But then I guess it depends what aspect you are looking at. In The New Jim Crow, the author discusses the shift our country experienced as, she asserted, a direct response to coordinated protests against economic injustice that spanned the (at that point she says not very existent) 'color line'. I think it would be fair to characterize those responses as having a intent to dominate - though the use of 'race' was, from her description, very much a means rather than a goal. ...but the people who bought into it were, it seems to me, motivated by their own fear, their economic insecurities and the desire to hold onto the little they had... and when an 'other' was presented to them as threat, it shifted the focus to the (manufactured) competition and from those who were profiting. ...but I just can't see that as rooted in a desire to dominate. tangent: I don't see the awareness of difference, that even very young children have, as intrinsically bad, nor the tendency towards tribal thinking. I see it as a starting place - just as we start as little ones very centered on our needs, desires, etc, and then learn to use that awareness to see that others also have needs and desires, I think we can expand our tribal instincts to see all of humanity as part of our tribe... Yeah - quote seems to be working for me today... So you are saying that the reason the middle school girl cliquiness I saw crests in middle school is because it is a developmental stage? And that we are born self-centered, then expand (by nature? by nurture?) to tribal-centeredness and then (in puberty?) expand to the ability to empathize with anyone? Thinking back on my own and my sisters' growth and the growth of my children, I'm not sure this has been my experience. (Assuming middle school girl cliquiness is the same as race prejudice, just on a smaller, less entrenched scale.) In my experience, it seemed like my children empathized with anyone and everyone, once I pointed out that there was a difference between the kitty's tail and a doorknob. Their idea of alive and not alive was pretty broad and included their teddies. It was only after they had collected some experience in the world that their tribal thinking developed. That crested in college (for me too) and had a lot to do with my experiences in school. It seemed like their ability to empathize with anyone was overlaid with other programming for awhile. It didn't feel like the tribal thinking was taught to them by other tribal thinkers, but more like they fell back on tribal thinking when they found the world wasn't consistently empathic. Hmm... now I am wondering if the tribal thinking was taught to them, by me, as a means of damage control and to keep them safe... which sounds uncannily like what the civil war slave owners probably did with their own children, but in my case, what people actually looked like or did in this world had nothing to do with it... and they probably didn't keep repeating that although it was probably wise not to put yourself in any vulnerable positions and yes, what those classmates did was wrong, at the same time, you couldn't judge them because you hadn't walked three miles in their moccasins. So... ???... Maybe I think that our capacity to divide the world into them and us is an inborn survival thing, a way to divide up scarce resources and make sure your family group survives. In the modern world, in my own life, it was the only way I could figure out how to transmit my culture to my children without making them into judgemental, narrow-minded people. Even at the time, I thought there must be a better way, but I couldn't figure one out and just fell back on making sure they were exposed to other cultures. I think my timing could have been better, but there were other parameters to be considered. I don't think we learn empathy. I think that is something we are born with. All my experience, including my experience with the animals I live with, makes me think this. Which is why I think tribal thinking makes a better original sin than lack of ability to empathize. I'm not sure logically, what I am saying makes sense. Hmm... I guess I think we are born with a good thing (empathic ability) and a bad thing (tribal thinking) and developmentally, we need to learn to extend the good thing past the bad thing. It's not very linear so it isn't easy for me to explain. As far as race being a natural dividing line for that tribal thinking, I think physical characteristics have always been an easy line to draw between "us" and "them". In this country, most of us are still drawing one between two-legged animals with opposable thumbs and four-legged animals with hooves, allowing "us" to kill and eat "them". I don't think it is inevitable that either the line between skin colours, etc., or the line between bipedal and quadraped be drawn. I guess I took that for granted. But again, that is probably because I grew up where race wasn't an issue, in a place where what little poverty there was had nothing to do with culture or skin colour. My cousins, growing up in Texas, were a totally different story. More or less the same family culture as mine, but their experience and their external culture taught them to draw that line and be wary. Nan ETA - For what it's worth, I am absolutely convinced that my cat and dog were born with the same empathic and us/them abilities. I'm not so sure about my son's chickens. That last was a joke. Sort of. Ug. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 re: race as the child of racism, not the father.... and racecraft, kavanah, and synonyms: ...I haven't read Coates yet (I want to at least get a little further into The Fire This Time before starting it), but I have started Racecraft which also challenges our received truths on race: "Most people assume that racism grows from a perception of human difference: the fact of race gives rise to the practice of racism. Sociologist Karen E. Fields and historian Barbara J. Fields argue otherwise: the practice of racism produces the illusion of race, through what they call "racecraft." And this phenomenon is intimately entwined with other forms of inequality in American life. So pervasive are the devices of racecraft in American history, economic doctrine, politics, and everyday thinking that the presence of racecraft itself goes unnoticed." ...but I cannot (yet?) accept a definition of racism that requires kavana, intention. ..and, perhaps this is quibbling (and I haven't read Coates's explication), but dominate is an awfully *active* intention filled word. ...and my perception has been that racism seems more rooted in insecurity/fear/vulnerability. But then I guess it depends what aspect you are looking at. In The New Jim Crow, the author discusses the shift our country experienced as, she asserted, a direct response to coordinated protests against economic injustice that spanned the (at that point she says not very existent) 'color line'. I think it would be fair to characterize those responses as having a intent to dominate - though the use of 'race' was, from her description, very much a means rather than a goal. ...but the people who bought into it were, it seems to me, motivated by their own fear, their economic insecurities and the desire to hold onto the little they had... and when an 'other' was presented to them as threat, it shifted the focus to the (manufactured) competition and from those who were profiting. ...but I just can't see that as rooted in a desire to dominate.... FWIW, "dominate" is my word, how I understood what Coates was saying; I don't recall his using that particular word himself. That said, the two words he does use repeatedly, "plunder" and "exploit" black bodies for material gain, have I think a similar sense of active intention. (And are similarly uneasy on the ear.) My reading of his analysis is that there *is* kavanah: that the intention to exploit the unpaid/underpaid labor and extort the hard-earned pennies and enforce structural subjugation to keep the hierarchy enforced comes first; and the insecurity/fear/vulnerability that you speak of comes as a result of an only partially-acknowledged recognition of the injustice -> and resentment -> and violence such exploitation breeds. Kavanah first, domination second, fear as a result of the uneasy recognition that the domination naturally breeds consequences. That is the threat that gives rise to the insecurity and fear... I haven't read Racecraft, but from the excerpt you quoted and its initial reviews, it sounds as though its argument is based on a similar chronology: hierarchical inequality first, giving rise to an "illusion" of racial differences which are then named "racism." Hierarchical inequality is marginally easier on the ears than systemic plunder of black bodies, but I imagine the meaning is approximately synonymous? And semantics notwithstanding, in both arguments that enforced inequality is the "father" and the social constructs based on skin hue and hair texture the "child"? re: difference, awareness of difference, and Us-Them thinking tangent: I don't see the awareness of difference, that even very young children have, as intrinsically bad, nor the tendency towards tribal thinking. I see it as a starting place - just as we start as little ones very centered on our needs, desires, etc, and then learn to use that awareness to see that others also have needs and desires, I think we can expand our tribal instincts to see all of humanity as part of our tribe... I go back and forth on this myself... Have you read Peter Singer's Expanding Circle? It speaks to just that image of widening concentric circles, from the nuclear family emanating out to all of humanity. It's a beautiful image. I want, deeply, to believe it represents the natural future of humanity, the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends, etc. As y'all know I'm a hopeless sucker for redemption in my narratives... I wonder though if our progression gets stalled in fairly close-hewn circles; and I wonder too how incontrovertibly social constructs such as nationalism and language and religion (including, sigh, our own) operate -- sometimes even with, as you say, kavanah -- to keep us stuck rather close to our early tribe. Yeah - quote seems to be working for me today... So you are saying that the reason the middle school girl cliquiness I saw crests in middle school is because it is a developmental stage? And that we are born self-centered, then expand (by nature? by nurture?) to tribal-centeredness and then (in puberty?) expand to the ability to empathize with anyone? Thinking back on my own and my sisters' growth and the growth of my children, I'm not sure this has been my experience. (Assuming middle school girl cliquiness is the same as race prejudice, just on a smaller, less entrenched scale.) In my experience, it seemed like my children empathized with anyone and everyone, once I pointed out that there was a difference between the kitty's tail and a doorknob. Their idea of alive and not alive was pretty broad and included their teddies. It was only after they had collected some experience in the world that their tribal thinking developed. That crested in college (for me too) and had a lot to do with my experiences in school. It seemed like their ability to empathize with anyone was overlaid with other programming for awhile. It didn't feel like the tribal thinking was taught to them by other tribal thinkers, but more like they fell back on tribal thinking when they found the world wasn't consistently empathic. Hmm... now I am wondering if the tribal thinking was taught to them, by me, as a means of damage control and to keep them safe... which sounds uncannily like what the civil war slave owners probably did with their own children, but in my case, what people actually looked like or did in this world had nothing to do with it... and they probably didn't keep repeating that although it was probably wise not to put yourself in any vulnerable positions and yes, what those classmates did was wrong, at the same time, you couldn't judge them because you hadn't walked three miles in their moccasins. So... ???... Maybe I think that our capacity to divide the world into them and us is an inborn survival thing, a way to divide up scarce resources and make sure your family group survives. In the modern world, in my own life, it was the only way I could figure out how to transmit my culture to my children without making them into judgemental, narrow-minded people. Even at the time, I thought there must be a better way, but I couldn't figure one out and just fell back on making sure they were exposed to other cultures. I think my timing could have been better, but there were other parameters to be considered. I don't think we learn empathy. I think that is something we are born with. All my experience, including my experience with the animals I live with, makes me think this. Which is why I think tribal thinking makes a better original sin than lack of ability to empathize. I'm not sure logically, what I am saying makes sense. Hmm... I guess I think we are born with a good thing (empathic ability) and a bad thing (tribal thinking) and developmentally, we need to learn to extend the good thing past the bad thing. It's not very linear so it isn't easy for me to explain. ______ As far as race being a natural dividing line for that tribal thinking, I think physical characteristics have always been an easy line to draw between "us" and "them". In this country, most of us are still drawing one between two-legged animals with opposable thumbs and four-legged animals with hooves, allowing "us" to kill and eat "them". I don't think it is inevitable that either the line between skin colours, etc., or the line between bipedal and quadraped be drawn. I guess I took that for granted. But again, that is probably because I grew up where race wasn't an issue, in a place where what little poverty there was had nothing to do with culture or skin colour. My cousins, growing up in Texas, were a totally different story. More or less the same family culture as mine, but their experience and their external culture taught them to draw that line and be wary. Nan ETA - For what it's worth, I am absolutely convinced that my cat and dog were born with the same empathic and us/them abilities. I'm not so sure about my son's chickens. That last was a joke. Sort of. Ug. I also believe that we are born with empathy. But it does seem like some kids get a double portion, while others get a rather scant helping, KWIM? My younger daughter was born empathizing with four-legged animals and quite loath to eat them -- her siblings, not; and she didn't learn it from us; we are, in fact, slowly learning it from her. Whilst with one of the other ones, we've had to exert a fair amount of Direct Instruction as well as modeling on the empathy front... 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The library had a huge book sale last week & I've enjoyed looking through & reading a photography book I picked up there, Hidden Witness: African-American Images from the Dawn of Photography to the Civil War by Jackie Napolean Wilson. It's a unique & really lovely collection of photos. Even though some of the original daguerreotypes are small, almost all the photos are uniformly-sized into full-page photos here; that, coupled with the high-quality print job, lets you see & appreciate the beauty & details of these early photos. There are some details available about some of the portrait subjects, but usually very little. It's too bad that the details of people's lives have been lost to the sands of history. A beautiful collection, lovingly presented. The image is striking: A woman gazes serenely at the camera, baby cradled in her arms in classic Madonna-and-child pose. More striking is the fact that the sitters are black, and the photograph dates from 1860. Few photographs from the mid-19th century feature African Americans, enslaved or free. Those that do are often staged and reflect the biases of the photographer or the printmaker who published them. Others, however, provide glimpses of daily life before the abolition of slavery.Renowned collector of early photographs Jackie Napolean Wilson has compiled 70 such images in Hidden Witness. Each photograph--whether an outdoor scene, where slaves are afterthoughts in the frame, so-called Mammy portraits of slaves holding white children, studio portraits of proud freemen and women--is accompanied by a brief explanation, contextualizing the image and speculating on the nature of the pictured relationships. Some of the subjects are famous, such as Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass; others, though unknowns, carry a force of their own: the exuberant grin of the prizewinning boxer, the proud stance of a Union soldier, the quiet dignity of a slave nurse. A handsome addition to the history of African Americans and photography. --Sunny Delaney 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 **************************** I might be up for some Darwin reading too.... and oh, my, yes, but my tbr list for 2016 is already absurd..... which is wonderful! The Iliad, Odyssey, & the Aeneid have such an absurd wealth of choices, even just within the range of ancient lit. Are you looking at any others? The Iliad is the only ancient epic on my possible list for next year, but I will enjoy hearing about your re-encounters. :) We will definitely do some plays as well. I think Oedipus the King, Antigone, and some part of the Oresteia but I'm not sure how much. And then the Shakespeare plays, at least Julius Caesar and maybe Antony & Cleopatra and Troilus & Cressida. I would love suggestions for whatever you think is not to be missed but doable for a 9th grader for an Ancients year, and the very best modern retelling/reinterpretations to go with. I'm particularly excited about doing Antigone, I think that is such a great play for a young teenage girl to think through. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 re: race as the child of racism, not the father.... and racecraft, kavanah, and synonyms: FWIW, "dominate" is my word, how I understood what Coates was saying; I don't recall his using that particular word himself. That said, the two words he does use repeatedly, "plunder" and "exploit" black bodies for material gain, have I think a similar sense of active intention. (And are similarly uneasy on the ear.) My reading of his analysis is that there *is* kavanah: that the intention to exploit the unpaid/underpaid labor and extort the hard-earned pennies and enforce structural subjugation to keep the hierarchy enforced comes first; and the insecurity/fear/vulnerability that you speak of comes as a result of an only partially-acknowledged recognition of the injustice -> and resentment -> and violence such exploitation breeds. Kavanah first, domination second, fear as a result of the uneasy recognition that the domination naturally breeds consequences. That is the threat that gives rise to the insecurity and fear... I haven't read Racecraft, but from the excerpt you quoted and its initial reviews, it sounds as though its argument is based on a similar chronology: hierarchical inequality first, giving rise to an "illusion" of racial differences which are then named "racism." Hierarchical inequality is marginally easier on the ears than systemic plunder of black bodies, but I imagine the meaning is approximately synonymous? And semantics notwithstanding, in both arguments that enforced inequality is the "father" and the social constructs based on skin hue and hair texture the "child"? re: difference, awareness of difference, and Us-Them thinking I go back and forth on this myself... Have you read Peter Singer's Expanding Circle? It speaks to just that image of widening concentric circles, from the nuclear family emanating out to all of humanity. It's a beautiful image. I want, deeply, to believe it represents the natural future of humanity, the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends, etc. As y'all know I'm a hopeless sucker for redemption in my narratives... I wonder though if our progression gets stalled in fairly close-hewn circles; and I wonder too how incontrovertibly social constructs such as nationalism and language and religion (including, sigh, our own) operate -- sometimes even with, as you say, kavanah -- to keep us stuck rather close to our early tribe. I also believe that we are born with empathy. But it does seem like some kids get a double portion, while others get a rather scant helping, KWIM? My younger daughter was born empathizing with four-legged animals and quite loath to eat them -- her siblings, not; and she didn't learn it from us; we are, in fact, slowly learning it from her. Whilst with one of the other ones, we've had to exert a fair amount of Direct Instruction as well as modeling on the empathy front... So probably showing abysmal ignorance here, but this isn't something I've researched... And there is the chance that I haven't understood the argument, since I've been chasing the original sin idea and I haven't read any of the books you guys are discussion (which isn't really fair and if you don't want to bother explaining, no problem, just ignore this)... If hatred born of fear born of inequality is NOT the reason for racial tensions, what other arguments are there? Other than the probably too general one of we will always inevitably break ourselves into us and them and this manifestation is a particularly persistent one because it is based on easily spotted physical differences? I'm not sure I understand what the alternative explanations are. About the circles, I'm not sure I understand the incontrovertibly word. Do you mean incontrovertibly like inevitably, always? I'm not sure about nationality, but doesn't having a variety of cultures and languages allow us to be more efficient? Our environments vary so much. Doesn't language grow out of environment and culture? When you try to make something too universal, you lose a lot... (LOL - Should Starbucks have a Christmas cup or not? Should Muslim students be able to wear a veil in school?) Yes, it keeps us apart, but sometimes that isn't so bad. Hasn't it been shown that if there is too much uniformity, there is a lack of impetus to improve and change? I think this is where I become more ying-yang-y and say that obviously we need to strive for utopia but that as humans we are imperfect and limited and maybe it is just as well that we are broken into different groups, that that allows more chance for us to stumble on the next best social advance. Maybe it keeps us more robust, also, and prevents things like the potato famine. If you think of different cultures and languages as different mutations, some of which may spread and lead to general advancements in human behaviour, perhaps you could argue that our differences and tribalness are more of a good thing than a bad thing in the long run? Maybe?Ug. I guess you could use that as an argument for wars being good. yuck yuck yuck... I don't know. I think it is probably more a matter of amount of difference than a matter of all differences being bad. Not hurting anybody would be a good place to start not having any differences. That shouldn't depend on language, right? LOL It seems like the attempts to remove the nuclear family or at least reduce its influence and replace it with a larger entity haven't gone well. Two attempts I can think of - communism and kibbutzes - are located in areas with a lot of conflict and suffering. Maybe the conflict and suffering came first and these were attempts to deal with it? I don't know. About being born with a capacity for empathy, maybe the fact that your Direct Instruction worked in the end proves that we ARE born with this capacity? I agree that some people seem to be born with more than others. I think some of us are more compliant than others, too. I would have gone the don't eat the four-leggers route a whole lot sooner if I hadn't been so compliant. It took forever for me to wake up and see that it was going to hurt them (and me) more to eat them than it was going to hurt someone else if I didn't. I think the whole thing is messier than it seems. Do you hurt your parents by not agreeing with them about their prejudices? Or stand alone for change? Do you take a chance on that stranger, even though at one point in your past someone who looked like that stranger dragged you down the hall of your high school for not lending them your tennis racket? We're wired to learn from past experiences. It takes a lot to overcome that. Nan 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 *Pairing of a work and adaptations: since I was just looking at the new translation of the Iliad there are a number of Iliad related books, plays, and poems that come to mind (some I've read, some on my TBR list): Cassandra, All Day Permanent Red, Ransom, War and the Iliad, War Music, Memorial, Achilles in Vietnam, Our Ajax, The Theater of War, War that Killed Achilles, Troilus and Cressida (by Chaucer and/or Shakespeare), Barrico's An Iliad, Dismissal of the Grecian Envoys, File on H, Songs of the Kings. ...and then there are the plays... I would love to do this as a theme for my 2016 reading! Not sure if I will be able to get a hold of those books, though. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well, surprisingly....Cassandra, Ransom, War that Killed Achilles and Songs of Kings are in my library :svengo: . 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yesterday I finished William Goldman's The Princess Bride: An Illustrated Edition of S. Morgenstern's Classic Tale of True Love and High Adventure which I've been reading for my book group this Thursday. I did enjoy the book overall; I can also see why many readers end up believing that Florin and Guilder are real places. The author does a good job of making Morgenstern and his world seem real. I also believe I know which parts make others like it less than the movie -- for example, the author as narrator talking about his cold wife, ogling the starlet, and discussing his fat son. Those parts, because they do contain some factual information as when the author/narrator talks about books and screenplays he has written, make one wonder if ALL the information is factual. I wanted to search to see if his wife's name is the same as the one given in the text. So, even the less than pleasant parts of the book add to the feeling of realness about the framing story. I'm looking forward now to Thursday's discussion. ** I also read Jen Turano's historical inspirational romance After a Fashion which I found pleasant. The inspirational component was not heavy handed. "Miss Harriet Peabody dreams of the day she can open up a shop selling refashioned gowns to independent working women like herself. Unfortunately, when an errand for her millinery shop job goes sadly awry due to a difficult customer, she finds herself out of an income.Mr. Oliver Addleshaw is on the verge of his biggest business deal yet when he learns his potential partner prefers to deal with men who are settled down and wed. When Oliver witnesses his ex not-quite-fiance cause the hapless Harriet to lose her job, he tries to make it up to her by enlisting her help in making a good impression on his business partner.Harriet quickly finds her love of fashion can't make her fashionable. She'll never truly fit into Oliver's world, but just as she's ready to call off the fake relationship, fancy dinners, and elegant balls, a threat from her past forces both Oliver and Harriet to discover that love can come in the most surprising packages." Regards, Kareni 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 re: peeling back the artichoke leaves in search of the heart of hatred: So probably showing abysmal ignorance here, but this isn't something I've researched... And there is the chance that I haven't understood the argument, since I've been chasing the original sin idea and I haven't read any of the books you guys are discussion (which isn't really fair and if you don't want to bother explaining, no problem, just ignore this)... If hatred born of fear born of inequality is NOT the reason for racial tensions, what other arguments are there? Other than the probably too general one of we will always inevitably break ourselves into us and them and this manifestation is a particularly persistent one because it is based on easily spotted physical differences? I'm not sure I understand what the alternative explanations are. My reading of both Coates and Baldwin is that the directionality runs exactly as you state in the bolded: inequality first, fear/hatred as a result, though the mechanisms run somewhat differently: The fear/hatred of the exploited is based on the Very Clear, explicitly acknowledged recognition that black bodies and lives face physical perils for no reason other than their blackness (Coates, p. 9, addressing his son following litany of recent police shootings: "And you know now, if you did not before, that the police departments of your country have been endowed with the authority to destroy your body. It does not matter if the destruction is the result of an unfortunate overreaction. It does not matter if it originates in a misunderstanding. It does not matter if the destruction springs from a foolish policy. Sell cigarettes without the proper authority and your body can be destroyed. Turn into a dark stairwell and your body can be destroyed. The destroyers will rarely be accountable. Mostly they will receive pensions. And destruction is merely the superlative form of a dominion whose prerogatives include friskings, detainings, beatings, and humiliations. All of this is common to black people. And all of it is old for black people. No one is held responsible." Whereas, the insecurity/fear/vulnerability felt by (in Coates' construct) "people who have been taught to believe themselves to be white" is less explicit and a good deal less acknowledged, based on a sort of gnawing inchoate partial recognition that over the long run we reap what we sow, that people subjected to such violence and injustice will inevitably be formed by it. In any event, neither Coates nor Baldwin are all that interested in the exploiter side of the dynamic; we are not the audience, only eavesdroppers. re: Singer and " incontrovertibly social constructs such as nationalism and language and religion": About the circles, I'm not sure I understand the incontrovertibly word. Do you mean incontrovertibly like inevitably, always? I'm not sure about nationality, but doesn't having a variety of cultures and languages allow us to be more efficient? Our environments vary so much. Doesn't language grow out of environment and culture? When you try to make something too universal, you lose a lot... (LOL - Should Starbucks have a Christmas cup or not? Should Muslim students be able to wear a veil in school?) Yes, it keeps us apart, but sometimes that isn't so bad. Hasn't it been shown that if there is too much uniformity, there is a lack of impetus to improve and change? I think this is where I become more ying-yang-y and say that obviously we need to strive for utopia but that as humans we are imperfect and limited and maybe it is just as well that we are broken into different groups, that that allows more chance for us to stumble on the next best social advance. Maybe it keeps us more robust, also, and prevents things like the potato famine. If you think of different cultures and languages as different mutations, some of which may spread and lead to general advancements in human behaviour, perhaps you could argue that our differences and tribalness are more of a good thing than a bad thing in the long run? Maybe?Ug. I guess you could use that as an argument for wars being good. yuck yuck yuck... I don't know. I think it is probably more a matter of amount of difference than a matter of all differences being bad. Not hurting anybody would be a good place to start not having any differences. That shouldn't depend on language, right? LOL Ah, so our socially-constructed Us-Them groupings keep us nimble, like biodiversity keeps species better suited to survive different kinds of environmental shocks and disasters? Interesting idea. All I meant in using the word "incontrovertible" was to differentiate Us-Them groups that are CLEARLY transmitted culturally, like language, from other kinds of groupings that over the centuries have been understood to have a genetic component as well. As you noted yourself upthread, enforced hierarchical inequality (all the way to slavery) that are delineated only by culturally transmitted categories, without physical markers, have better potential to recede to the extent that the exploited groups are prepared to give up the old language / religion / customs. (Not that the pressure to do so is ethical (!), but a lousy choice is better than none at all.) It seems like the attempts to remove the nuclear family or at least reduce its influence and replace it with a larger entity haven't gone well. Two attempts I can think of - communism and kibbutzes - are located in areas with a lot of conflict and suffering. Maybe the conflict and suffering came first and these were attempts to deal with it? I don't know. Singer does not in any way endorse kibbutz-like attempts to remove the nuclear family or reduce its importance (neither anymore do kibbutzes). Rather he argues, as I think Eliana is also alluding above, that we first learn empathy within the context of our families, and then the circle gradually widens to our extended community, and then to our religious community or clan or tribe, and thereafter to larger and more abstract circles such as nation, until we Feel the Love for humanity at large. We start particular and move toward the universal. I gave away my book, so I can't quote it, but Singer's mechanism for the Expanding Circles is, precisely, empathy... but the form of empathy itself evolves... it starts out in rudimentary, very personal terms ("I love my brother, and I know he'll be sad if I eat all four of the donuts, so I'll save one for him...") but progresses developmentally towards a more detached/abstract logic ("what is abominable to you, do not do unto others). Two of my favorite authors, Steven Pinker and Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, have riffed of this in different directions. Pinker more on how "empathy is not enough" but training in detecting blind spots and overcoming cognitive dissonance can help us (individually and culturally) outward on the circles towards a better and more peaceful co-existence on a common planet; Goldstein -- who mostly writes very philosophically tilted fiction -- on the idea of cultivating the perspective of a View From Nowhere (not what it sounds like) as a means of better understanding and dealing with perspectives different from our own. About being born with a capacity for empathy, maybe the fact that your Direct Instruction worked in the end proves that we ARE born with this capacity? ______ Well, that is indeed the hope, lol.... I agree that some people seem to be born with more than others. I think some of us are more compliant than others, too. I would have gone the don't eat the four-leggers route a whole lot sooner if I hadn't been so compliant. It took forever for me to wake up and see that it was going to hurt them (and me) more to eat them than it was going to hurt someone else if I didn't. I think the whole thing is messier than it seems. Do you hurt your parents by not agreeing with them about their prejudices? Or stand alone for change? Do you take a chance on that stranger, even though at one point in your past someone who looked like that stranger dragged you down the hall of your high school for not lending them your tennis racket? We're wired to learn from past experiences. It takes a lot to overcome that. I think the experiential insight is important, and loops back around to Coates and Baldwin, and the very different experiences that different Americans face growing up, and how those experiences forge our children... and what we can/must do, micro-level, do expose the specific kids we are entrusted with raising to experiences that enable them to see those differences and respond compassionately... and also what we can/must do, macro- and policy-level, to do our part in fixing what's broken. What our kids see us doing, is part of their experiences... 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Pam - So Pinker says it is not enough to just drum, chant, and walk, hunh? LOL Have to think a bit before I respond seriously. And I have to do some more mundane things before I can do that. : ) Nan 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just throwing my hat in the ring for the paired epics! That would be...epic. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Hoping I'll get a few new books during the upcoming holidays, so I'm clearing my shelves a little bit.... Does anyone want: The Fig Eater by Jody Shields (regardless of the low-ish ratings on amazon, I loved this book) Hidden Witness: African-American Images from the Dawn of Photography to the Civil War by Jackie Napolean Wilson The Travels of Marco Polo by Marco Polo, edited by Peter Harris (has been requested) In the Footsteps of Marco Polo by Denis Belliveau & Fancis O'Donnell (has been requested) If you do, send me a PM & I'll drop the book(s) in the mail to you. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennW in SoCal Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just stopping by for a quick hello. Not much free time for reading books or posts here -- considered yourselves all "liked"! For Jane, just a quick link or two for more info on the Sea of Cortez. We haven't ventured down there -- I know it is practically my backyard -- but we have explored it through the research of our small natural history museum. Thought you might enjoy exploring what they have on line: You can start with the Baja Flora Project There is also an amazing IMAX movie, Ocean Oasis, which is was a pet project of our museum. The webpage has more interesting info. Alrighty -- back to all that beckons in real life.... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I just listened to a 20 minute rant on The Martian from my DH. He's the only person in the free world to hate it I believe. This might make for an interesting book club meeting on Sunday. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I just listened to a 20 minute rant on The Martian from my DH. He's the only person in the free world to hate it I believe. This might make for an interesting book club meeting on Sunday. I'd be interested in hearing why he hates it. My group will be reading it in January. Regards, Kareni 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I just listened to a 20 minute rant on The Martian from my DH. He's the only person in the free world to hate it I believe. This might make for an interesting book club meeting on Sunday. No he's not. There are a lot of people who just don't like science fiction. And many of the more literary minded reviewers just did NOT get the appeal. There are people who find it tedious, they don't like all of the drawn out scientific discussions, some people don't like the character of Mark Watney, they find him glib or underdeveloped. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Love your trip photos and account, Jane, and The Miracle Game sounds like it needs to be added to my TBR list. Finished my 52nd book for the year. John Henry Faulk is only a local celebrity now, in part because of what was done to him in the McCarthy era. He was once a well-known radio personality on CBS, very much like Garrison Keillor; an educated and cultured good ol' boy from South Austin (even when I was a kid, South Austin was where folks kept chickens and cinder-block-propped pickups in their yards, and sofas on their front porches) who brought his "professional Texan" persona successfully to New York radio. His book tells how his career was ruined, and how Americans stood by and put up with blacklisting. Because the fight against Communism made it necessary. Because who wants to risk being associated with Communists, or their sympathizers, or someone who once had lunch with a sympathizer, or someone whose friend once had lunch...? And because it's the right of private citizens to object when a corporation employs one of those people. And because it's their right to organize boycotts to pressure corporate sponsors to stop doing business with those who employ pro-Communists. We think of the McCarthy era, and we think of the HUAC hearings, and government persecution. But Faulk wanted to make it clear that most of the damage to people's lives was done by private vigilanteism, which for a long time was not seen as wrong but as good and necessary in order to destroy the evil of Communism. From the trial transcript: --------- GOODSON: I will only say then ... that the net result was that Clark Swanson regrettably felt that he had now to accede to the pressure, and we would have to drop Abe Burrows, and I came to Burrows and I told him the full facts and he agreed that in the light of the pressure which was being threatened that I agreed with Swanson, who had been very decent up to this point, could not stand up under it. NIZER: And did Mr. Burrows still state that he was innocent of any Communist affiliations? GOODSON: Yes he did. NIZER: Was the pressure ... did it involve the taking off of the goods of the Swanson products? ... GOODSON: A sponsor is in business to sell his goods. He has no interest in being involved in causes. He does not want controversy. --J. H. Faulk, Fear on Trial ---------------- Many of the names here will be familiar to those of us over forty. Remember game shows ending with "a Mark Goodson/ Bill Todman production"? That's producer Mark Goodson testifying, above. Tony Randall appears as a witness, testifying how he avoided union meetings and in his own words "crawled under a rock" to keep from being noticed. Ed Murrow, Myrna Loy, J. Frank Dobie all make appearances. In an epilogue added a decade later, Faulk talks about discovering that the FBI had an extensive file on him and had been actively cooperating with the defendants. The last words of the book: -------------- An agency of government ... that engages in the secret collection and storage of political information on American citizens has more in common with totalitarian police states than it does with the United States Government. --Epilogue (1976) 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow on two counts, Violet Crown! First, congrats on 52!!! And, secondly, wow re: Fear on Trial. Sounds scary & fascinating. Sometimes our history is shocking. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 No he's not. There are a lot of people who just don't like science fiction. And many of the more literary minded reviewers just did NOT get the appeal. There are people who find it tedious, they don't like all of the drawn out scientific discussions, some people don't like the character of Mark Watney, they find him glib or underdeveloped. DH does love more literary books - currently he's reading War and Peace but he also likes George RR Martin and Guy Gabriel Kay. Mixed tastes. His complaints so far: The main character is unbelievable. DH has a biology degree and an engineering degree and thought that there was no way the main character could have gotten through college let alone become an astronaut. The writing is bad. Too much f-word and yay. He said it was written like a blog by a frat boy Of course ... DH and I are known for having very moderate opinions. *sarcasm warning over* 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 The writing is bad. Too much f-word and yay. He said it was written like a blog by a frat boy.I only read the first couple of pages of it, but, yes. Jane, The Good Soldier Švejk underway. Don't skip the introduction with Hašek's bio! Eliana, I get the special characters by holding down the key on my iPad and choosing from the mini-menu. Don't worry, I won't be crossing the tropics with Henry Miller either; but it was Jane who brought it up. Corrupting the morals of the youth of Athens again. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I only read the first couple of pages of it, but, yes. Jane, The Good Soldier Švejk underway. Don't skip the introduction with Hašek's bio! Eliana, I get the special characters by holding down the key on my iPad and choosing from the mini-menu. Don't worry, I won't be crossing the tropics with Henry Miller either; but it was Jane who brought it up. Corrupting the morals of the youth of Athens again. Hold on! I innocently mentioned an imaginary line, the Tropic of Cancer, and it was my good friend VC who brought up Henry Miller. Who is corrupting whom? It will take another day or two before I wrap up The Miracle Game, then I will drop it in the mail for your reading pleasure, VC. The Good Soldier Švejk is next on my plate. While I regularly read Eastern European authors, there has been an emphasis on Czech writers since my travels to the Czech Republic last fall. (Imagine my surprise when a fellow passenger on the boat in the Sea of Cortes asked me if I had ever read anything by Bohumil Hrabel! Why yes, I have.) In La Paz, I paid a visit to the English bookstore, Allende Books, where I purchased Almost an Island: Travels in Baja California by Bruce Berger and The Underdogs: A Novel of the Mexican Revolution by Mariano Azuela. My homework in preparing for the trip was to read Steinbeck's Log from the Sea of Cortes. I suspect that my 2016 reading list may include some other things influenced by this trip to Mexico. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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