G.A. Henty question

[rose]

I keep looking at Henty's books on good reads and I've got question. Are they all violent? Does the protagonist always join in the conflict? Do they promote a pro-white man, paternalistic view of the world? I'm just really suspicious that he's a cheap writer that's not worth exposing my dc to but I can't help wondering if maybe I'm missing something good.

[kiana]

I keep looking at Henty's books on good reads and I've got question. Are they all violent? Does the protagonist always join in the conflict? Do they promote a pro-white man, paternalistic view of the world? I'm just really suspicious that he's a cheap writer that's not worth exposing my dc to but I can't help wondering if maybe I'm missing something good.

 

Absolutely.

[Corraleno]

Do they promote a pro-white man, paternalistic view of the world?

 

he's a cheap writer that's not worth exposing my dc to

 

 Yes, to both of these.

[Farrar]

I keep looking at Henty's books on good reads and I've got question. Are they all violent? Does the protagonist always join in the conflict? Do they promote a pro-white man, paternalistic view of the world? I'm just really suspicious that he's a cheap writer that's not worth exposing my dc to but I can't help wondering if maybe I'm missing something good.

 

Um, exactly. Your suspicions are correct.

 

Old =/= Good. Henty seems to confuse some people that way. They were the fun reads of their day. But like most of the fun reads of our day, they probably don't need to outlast their time. It's only because of the mania for older literature that his works have been so elevated by homeschoolers.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yep, yep, and yep.  I tried one because I was curious.  One was one too many. 

 

 

[Doodlebug]

Well, good to know!

 

I've requested The Cat of Bubastes via ILL, and will take a read before assigning.

 

 

[laughing lioness]

I'll offer a non-pc perspective. Henty was a man of his times. Henty gives a historical feel from a specific perspective on what life was like during his time, as a privileged aristocrat. To say it's not worth reading because of that is to miss out on all that his writing does offer. To criticize him from today's perspective is cheap intellectualism and one of the problems with how people view history these days - which is often solely from their perspective. 

 

His writing is formulaic. He also packs in historical people, places, times, facts. We have learned a TON of great history from Henty. I recommend him highly. 

[Hunter]

I think I read my first Henty before Y2K. I was appalled and we didn't finish it. I have grown up a lot since then.

 

Has "growing up" made me a better person or superior in some way? I wouldn't say that, but I do think differently. The world is a lot more gray instead of so black and white.

 

I've learned the term "chronological snobbery" and I don't think it is a good thing at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

 

I have learned that there are all types of human rights violations, and I don't believe any one type of violation is worse than another. And I don't believe that blatant violations are always worse than subtle ones.

 

I believe that humans are really pretty nasty creatures, and I expect a lot less from humans than I once did. I expect them to do bad things. I expect them to do bad things in books. I expect authors to be bad people.

 

I don't think books of any one age are superior to another.

 

I believe that low income moms have every right to use older books that are free and plentiful. One marginalized group doesn't need to take on the burden of another marginalized group. Low income moms sometimes need to give themselves some slack in choosing books that are not PC.

 

I sometimes use Henty books now. They fill in holes of history, when I don't have anything else.

[Farrar]

I'll offer a non-pc perspective. Henty was a man of his times. Henty gives a historical feel from a specific perspective on what life was like during his time, as a privileged aristocrat. To say it's not worth reading because of that is to miss out on all that his writing does offer. To criticize him from today's perspective is cheap intellectualism and one of the problems with how people view history these days - which is often solely from their perspective. 

 

His writing is formulaic. He also packs in historical people, places, times, facts. We have learned a TON of great history from Henty. I recommend him highly. 

 

But that's the problem exactly. Henty wrote mostly historical fiction and it reflects his time and attitudes more than the time and attitudes he wrote about - and not even all the attitudes of his time, but the patriarchal, western white male attitudes of his time. This whole argument is just baffling to me because while true, I don't expect my kids to be able to do this sort of in depth understanding at the age at which most people want their kids reading Henty - to be able to say, this doesn't really reflect what this time period was like, it reflects how people hundreds of years later thought, but that isn't what we think today and we know a bunch of this wasn't true and is, frankly, offensive in terms of depictions and language. It's just too complex for a 10 yo. Different perspectives are good - but that's too many layers to tear apart.

 

And, more to the point, why bother when his writing wasn't so great to start with? It's maybe worth it to go through that for great novels like Huck Finn (also historical fiction, also reflective of the time it was written more than the reality of the times in many ways, a study in racism and attitudes, but actually worth this effort). But even that I wouldn't think my kids are capable of doing at age 9 or so, when a lot of people think Henty is appropriate.

[Corraleno]

But that's the problem exactly. Henty wrote mostly historical fiction and it reflects his time and attitudes more than the time and attitudes he wrote about - and not even all the attitudes of his time, but the patriarchal, western white male attitudes of his time. ...

 

And, more to the point, why bother when his writing wasn't so great to start with? 

 

:iagree:

 

Why waste time on blatantly racist books that are neither good literature nor good history, when there are so many better choices?

 

[Spy Car]

I think I read my first Henty before Y2K. I was appalled and we didn't finish it. I have grown up a lot since then.

 

Has "growing up" made me a better person or superior in some way? I wouldn't say that, but I do think differently. The world is a lot more gray instead of so black and white.

 

I've learned the term "chronological snobbery" and I don't think it is a good thing at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

 

I have learned that there are all types of human rights violations, and I don't believe any one type of violation is worse than another. And I don't believe that blatant violations are always worse than subtle ones.

 

I believe that humans are really pretty nasty creatures, and I expect a lot less from humans than I once did. I expect them to do bad things. I expect them to do bad things in books. I expect authors to be bad people.

 

I don't think books of any one age are superior to another.

 

I believe that low income moms have every right to use older books that are free and plentiful. One marginalized group doesn't need to take on the burden of another marginalized group. Low income moms sometimes need to give themselves some slack in choosing books that are not PC.

 

I sometimes use Henty books now. They fill in holes of history, when I don't have anything else.

Good grief.

 

Public libraries are full of books that don't contain the vile racism and bigotry of GA Henty books.

 

These books don't fill a "hole in history" and shackling the minds of children with these distorted and sick views does no one any favors.

 

Bill

[kiwik]

I must read one of his books to see what the fuss is about.

[Corraleno]

I must read one of his books to see what the fuss is about.

 

I'll save you the trouble:

 

"The intelligence of an average negro is about equal to that of a European child of ten years old. A few, a very few, go beyond this, but these are exceptions... They are absolutely without originality, absolutely without inventive power. Living among white men, their imitative faculties enable them to attain a considerable amount of civilization. Left alone to their own devices they retrograde into a state little above their native savagery." --from By Sheer Pluck, a Tale of the Ashanti War

 

"the negroes on a well-ordered estate, under kind masters, were probably a happier class of people than the laborers upon any estate in Europe." --from With Lee in Virginia

 

“Civil wars, insurrections, and massacres have been the rule rather than the exception; the island has been gradually going down in the scale of civilization, and the majority of blacks are as savage, ignorant, and superstitious as their forefathers in Africa. Fetish worship and human sacrifices are carried on in secret, and the fairest island in the western seas lies sunk in the lowest degradation—a proof of the utter incapacity of the negro race to evolve, or even maintain, civilization, without the example and the curb of a white population among them.†from A Roving Commission

[Corraleno]

I've requested The Cat of Bubastes via ILL, and will take a read before assigning.

 

Spoiler Alert: Even in Ancient Egypt, the plucky heroes are tall and light-skinned, with blond hair and blue eyes — because of course the smartest, bravest, most heroic people in every culture, in every era, always look and behave just like upper-class British schoolboys.

[aprilleigh]

OMG, now I understand why his books are actually a bit challenging to find in some library systems. I think I can safely skip these. I'd deal with it and just have some frank discussions with DS if they had some literary or historical merit, but even as cherry-picked quotes that's just not ok.

[laughing lioness]

We have read, literally, hundreds of historical fiction books over the course of our 25 years of homeschooling. I haven't found  the "hundreds" of good book alluded to in public libraries; ever- and we have lived coast to coast and in -between.

I have had to search out, pay out and be on the look out for good books, regardless of where we have lived. The illusive "better books" - where are they and what are they? 

 

Often historical fiction gives a "feeling" of a time. Henty includes people, places, dates- iow- facts; one of the important things missing in modern education, both public, private and homeschool. The "feel" of his book- sure, it's from his perspective. 

 

If you use solely Henty for history study- you will be missing out on a well rounded history education- which is true if you limit yourself to any one author or curriculum. We have used, and appreciated Henty as part of a comprehensive history program. 

[Farrar]

I can't say that there is a modern "equivalent" to all of Henty's books' topics for sure. There's plenty of more modern historical fiction out there and while there are a few times and places that I've struggled to find something great for, mostly I feel like there's plenty out there that's well-researched and decently written or even really well-written. There are plenty of topics covered that aren't covered by any of Henty's many books. I'm not willing to subject my kids to racist attitudes just to get in some dates and names. Dates and names are easy to find and teach in other ways. Some historical fiction has a lot of that, some does not.

 

When people say they couldn't find anything else, I think they're not looking hard enough, honestly, or that their priorities for their children's education are radically different from mine.

[laughing lioness]

My kids are confronted with racism and many other -isms, regularly. Basically, like if they ever listen to network news. Again, I've looked for well written historical fiction that (pre-fire) contained hundreds of books- but most were not found in libraries or your local box book store.

 

I didn't say I couldn't find anything else, but I'm not willing to throw Henty out because he is being judged by standards 100 years out from his perspective. One of the things I love about Hillyer's A Child's History of the World is his non-Christian perspective, written during a time of Christian culture. There is more to be studied in some of these books than merely the actual words on the page. 

 

I would contend that my kids have a grasp of history that extends well beyond most people, including most homeschoolers. I wouldn't put myself in that same category, honestly, but my kids know history and time periods and people,places, events and circumstances as well as how it affects and informs the global happenings of today.  Part of that is because we have not avoided studying what we don't agree with and aren't comfortable with. 

[justasque]

... There is more to be studied in some of these books than merely the actual words on the page. 

 

...

 

I will agree with this one point.  For the right child, at the right age, in the context of an education that contains a significant amount of quality history and literature, books that reflect colonial attitudes (or other problematic perspectives) can be an eye-opening education in just that - the colonial (etc.) beliefs that informed and were reinforced by the culture in which the book was written, and the way in which these beliefs were passed on to the next generation through children's literature.  That is, the books themselves are a historical artifact, and can be used as a primary source by students who have the ability and background to read them with a critical eye.  ("Primary source" in the sense of an example of a typical book a child of the era in which it was written might have read.)

[Tanaqui]

My kids are confronted with racism and many other -isms, regularly. Basically, like if they ever listen to network news. Again, I've looked for well written historical fiction that (pre-fire) contained hundreds of books- but most were not found in libraries or your local box book store.

 

I think there's a huge and profound difference between another police shooting and "oh, yeah, those blacks sure are stupid, amirite?"

 

I'm not willing to throw Henty out because he is being judged by standards 100 years out from his perspective.

 

How about low quality writing? We're not giving these books to kids 100 years ago. We're giving these books to kids today.

 

[aprilleigh]

...and can be used as a primary source by students who have the ability and background to read them with a critical eye...

 

Exactly! The age and abilities of the student are critical here, and grammar stage students have not developed this ability yet. Henty's books are frequently recommended in this age range.

[laughing lioness]

I'm really curious where y'all are finding the "quality writing" you keep talking about. The quality writing we've found has been from specialized (often homeschool) suppliers and re-prints. 

Again, Henty is content rich, despite simplistic, formulaic writing. Show me good historical fiction today that does that? - dates, people, places.

Where are these quality books and what are their titles? 

[Tanaqui]

If I want dates, people, and places I pick up a textbook.

 

If I want literature, I find something that's not formulaic or simplistic. If I can get the one with the other, so much the better, but I'm not going to waste my time on substandard writing just because it happens to have dates, people, and places - especially when it has a heavy admixture of blatant racism.

[justasque]

I'm really curious where y'all are finding the "quality writing" you keep talking about. The quality writing we've found has been from specialized (often homeschool) suppliers and re-prints. 

Again, Henty is content rich, despite simplistic, formulaic writing. Show me good historical fiction today that does that? - dates, people, places.

Where are these quality books and what are their titles? 

 

 

I have always found it useful to ask at the Child Lit listserv.  It's a group of librarians, teachers, writers, and academics who are interested in children's literature.  They always have excellent suggestions for books on any given topic, era, or issue, at any given reading level.  They are professionals who really know their stuff - we've found some wonderful books this way.  

 

On a smaller scale, the childrens' librarians at our local (city) public library have always been good at helping us to find what we need.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'll offer a non-pc perspective. Henty was a man of his times. Henty gives a historical feel from a specific perspective on what life was like during his time, as a privileged aristocrat. To say it's not worth reading because of that is to miss out on all that his writing does offer. To criticize him from today's perspective is cheap intellectualism and one of the problems with how people view history these days - which is often solely from their perspective. 

 

His writing is formulaic. He also packs in historical people, places, times, facts. We have learned a TON of great history from Henty. I recommend him highly. 

 

I don't object to reading some stuff like this because I agree it is a reflection of the time period.  It just doesn't seem right that a young kid should have a steady diet of this stuff.

 

And frankly, the one book I read I thought was boring as hell.  I had a hard time getting through it at all.

[Bluegoat]

Hmm.

 

Well, I actually think its a good idea to give kids older books because the people have different ideas.

 

I also think that older historical fiction for kids is often a little more rich than a lot of the newer stuff - the best books that we have found that really manage to give the feel of a period were older.

 

But - I don't think the Henty books are really very worthwhile.  They just aren't that well written, and even as historical fiction, while the details might be there I don't tend to see them as actually being very accurate to the period they show in other ways.  The objectionable parts are often more characteristic of the author than anything else.

 

I don't put a lot of emphasis on historical fiction as a way to learn history though.  I almost always choose it because it is actually objectively good literature, or because it is really fun to read.  For history through literature i would much rather use period literature than historical novels.  If i want my kids to read Victorian literature they can read Kipling.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

A homeschooled friend, who tends to be both very conservative politcally and liberally, used to read them as a kid. He said all of them seem to have the same plot, only with different names and places. I don't know if he's ever mentioned racism, but he doesn't think too much of them plot-wise.

[Corraleno]

If I want dates, people, and places I pick up a textbook.

 

If I want literature, I find something that's not formulaic or simplistic. If I can get the one with the other, so much the better, but I'm not going to waste my time on substandard writing just because it happens to have dates, people, and places - especially when it has a heavy admixture of blatant racism.

 

:iagree: 

There are plenty of sources for interesting, engaging, factual history, like the OUP series on the Ancient & Medieval Worlds. "Historical" fiction written by a racist 19th century novelist, whose explicit goal was to justify and glorify British Imperialism and whose historical "expertise" was generally gleaned from a couple of 18th or 19th century library books, is a pretty poor choice for learning history.

 

 

I don't put a lot of emphasis on historical fiction as a way to learn history though.  I almost always choose it because it is actually objectively good literature, or because it is really fun to read.  For history through literature i would much rather use period literature than historical novels.  If i want my kids to read Victorian literature they can read Kipling.

 

Exactly! Of course it can be useful to read books by authors whose attitudes reflect the beliefs and mores of the era they lived in and wrote about (Kipling, Dickens, Austen, Faulkner, etc., etc.). OTOH, a book about Ancient Egypt written by a Victorian racist whose heroes look and act like English school boys really doesn't tell you much about the beliefs and mores of Ancient Egypt. 

 

When we studied Egypt, we read OUP's Ancient Egyptian World, What Life Was Like on the Banks of the Nile, and Pyramid; watched tons of documentaries; read the Book of the Dead and other books about Egyptian mythology; learned some hieroglyphics; learned about Egyptian art and architecture and did some Egyptian style drawings; and watched Bob Brier's awesome lecture series on Egypt. Deep, rich, engaging content — no Victorian racism necesary.

[Bluegoat]

 

 

 

 

Exactly! Of course it can be useful to read books by authors whose attitudes reflect the beliefs and mores of the era they lived in and wrote about (Kipling, Dickens, Austen, Faulkner, etc., etc.). OTOH, a book about Ancient Egypt written by a Victorian racist whose heroes look and act like English school boys really doesn't tell you much about the beliefs and mores of Ancient Egypt. 

 

When we studied Egypt, we read OUP's Ancient Egyptian World, What Life Was Like on the Banks of the Nile, and Pyramid; watched tons of documentaries; read the Book of the Dead and other books about Egyptian mythology; learned some hieroglyphics; learned about Egyptian art and architecture and did some Egyptian style drawings; and watched Bob Brier's awesome lecture series on Egypt. Deep, rich, engaging content — no Victorian racism necesary.

 

The only thing I would maybe modify is that I think there is value in looking at another place or time through the eyes of a third party.  If we know what we believe to be the case about the Egyptians, and we look at what the Victorians, or the ancient Greeks, believed, it can be instructive.  They, like we do, assume many things - but that isn't always because we have access to better information.  Even just to see what others thought was important or interesting.  It's a good way, I think, not to become over-confident in our own analysis, and get some insight into some of our assumptions.

 

But - I still would tend to try and read the best of what they offered, when working at the level school aged kids are.

 

[Hunter]

So much of literature is nasty. There are some really nasty things I could quote from the Little House books. I don't know how to avoid nasty, with what I have available to me. And I don't know if I should.

 

I go through periods of greater and lesser tolerance for literature. I'm in a low tolerance stage. I'm just planning extra science right now.

 

Usually I hate prepping for experiments. Right now it's a welcome distraction and excuse not to read a book.

 

I'm thankful the Henty books are there. It's a resource I sometimes use.

[Corraleno]

The only thing I would maybe modify is that I think there is value in looking at another place or time through the eyes of a third party.  If we know what we believe to be the case about the Egyptians, and we look at what the Victorians, or the ancient Greeks, believed, it can be instructive.  They, like we do, assume many things - but that isn't always because we have access to better information.  Even just to see what others thought was important or interesting.  It's a good way, I think, not to become over-confident in our own analysis, and get some insight into some of our assumptions.

 

But - I still would tend to try and read the best of what they offered, when working at the level school aged kids are.

 

 

Yes, but analysis of what Victorians believed about ancient Egyptians is really a study of Victorian beliefs, not Egyptian beliefs, so it more properly belongs in a unit on 19th century history, not ancient history. Or it could be part of a unit on historiography or ethnocentrism or European colonialism and imperialism — none of which are really elementary level topics (which is when Henty is usually assigned). And even when students have the maturity and background to tackle those subjects, there are, as you say, far better resources which are better written, better researched, and more worthy of study than Henty novels.

[Hunter]

Maybe 2015 beliefs about Egypt are a study in 2015 beliefs.

[Corraleno]

Maybe 2015 beliefs about Egypt are a study in 2015 beliefs.

 

Yes, a 2015 history text will carry 2015 biases — including assumptions that non-whites are in fact fully human, that no one has the right to own another human being, and that a group's perception of itself as more "civilized" than everyone else doesn't give them the right to invade other countries and steal whatever land and resources they want. I do prefer a text with those "biases" to one that starts from opposite assumptions.

 

One of the reasons I avoid using "historical fiction" for history is because the purpose of a novel is to entertain a particular target audience (and earn a profit by doing so), not to present and analyze fact-based knowledge about a particular time and place. I'd rather get my history from a variety of historians, with different perspectives, who cite their sources, distinguish between theory and fact, and base their conclusions on close analysis of primary sources and material evidence — as opposed to 2nd-rate "Boys' Adventure Stories" whose historical "accuracy" is based on a quick read-through of a couple of library books, with plenty of leeway for tweaking the "facts" to fit the plot. 

[kiwik]

I'll save you the trouble:

 

"The intelligence of an average negro is about equal to that of a European child of ten years old. A few, a very few, go beyond this, but these are exceptions... They are absolutely without originality, absolutely without inventive power. Living among white men, their imitative faculties enable them to attain a considerable amount of civilization. Left alone to their own devices they retrograde into a state little above their native savagery." --from By Sheer Pluck, a Tale of the Ashanti War

 

"the negroes on a well-ordered estate, under kind masters, were probably a happier class of people than the laborers upon any estate in Europe." --from With Lee in Virginia

 

“Civil wars, insurrections, and massacres have been the rule rather than the exception; the island has been gradually going down in the scale of civilization, and the majority of blacks are as savage, ignorant, and superstitious as their forefathers in Africa. Fetish worship and human sacrifices are carried on in secret, and the fairest island in the western seas lies sunk in the lowest degradation—a proof of the utter incapacity of the negro race to evolve, or even maintain, civilization, without the example and the curb of a white population among them.†from A Roving Commission

Well it would be a great contribution to a study of colonial attitudes with a teenager but i can't see myself reading it to an eight year old.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, but analysis of what Victorians believed about ancient Egyptians is really a study of Victorian beliefs, not Egyptian beliefs, so it more properly belongs in a unit on 19th century history, not ancient history. Or it could be part of a unit on historiography or ethnocentrism or European colonialism and imperialism — none of which are really elementary level topics (which is when Henty is usually assigned). And even when students have the maturity and background to tackle those subjects, there are, as you say, far better resources which are better written, better researched, and more worthy of study than Henty novels.

 

Well, I am not really thinking about studying Victorian beliefs, per se,  about the Egyptians.  What I am saying is that we have a tendency to be temporally biased toward our own perspective, just because it is now, and especially as students get beyond the basics, they should have a broader perspective.  People are, IME, much less likely to be aware of temporal bias than they are of cultural bias, which we tend to take care to avoid.

 

One of the ways to combat that is the same way we do in other types of bias - one way to avoid cultural bias is to use sources from at least a few different cultural perspectives.  To avoid being stuck in the moment, it can be worthwhile to look at something written at a different time.  Assuming that the most modern sources are always the best isn't a great habit.

[aprilleigh]

So much of literature is nasty. There are some really nasty things I could quote from the Little House books.

 

I've noticed this too. We read one because it was required for a reading program we participate in, but we won't be reading the rest. Aside from the nasty, I found them rather preachy. The combination grated, and while I have no issue discussing the ideas in the book that are no longer acceptable with DS, I don't feel the need to provide a steady diet of it either.

[Syllieann]

I am so glad to see this thread. A ton of his books are listed for lit in great books academy, which I have been referencing in making my own reading list. I got the impression that he must be fabulous or something. I can't possibly pre-read everything, but I certainly am no longer planning to hand these over to my ods to read independently. Might do cat of bubastes as a read aloud so I can edit. Thanks op for heading off a disaster for me.

[Hunter]

These books are certainly not fabulous, but they are easy to schedule and in public domain.

[FloridaLisa]

You will get an acerbic reaction about Henty on this board. . . which has interestingly changed over the years. 

 

I've read two Henty books and enjoyed the fictional history. 

 

I actually think Henty is just too formulaic and for that reason, we only read a few. But yes, know the historic context and the viewpoint of every author. 

[aprilleigh]

I don't mind pre-reading for DS, although that will get tougher as he gets older even though I'm a voracious reader. Fortunately, many of the books he will be assigned in later years are books I've previously read. It also helps that I have ONE child. Keeping up with the reading materials for multiple kids would probably be overwhelming even for me.