First exposure to Chemistry class in CC, after high school?

[marbel]

Having a hard time titling this thread so it's clear.  It still probably isn't!   This is LD-related but I don't think it quite fits in to that board.

 

My son (rising senior) is not going to get Chem done in high school.  He would like to, but he doesn't have the math yet.  (He was sick for 3 years, about grades 8 - 10, and has been dx'd with a math disorder, so he is still working through algebra 1.)

 

He is destined for community college after high school, not applying to go off to 4-year university.  My question is - 

 

Can a person take their first lab Chemistry class in community college, or is it assumed that a student would have completed high school Chemistry?

 

He is pretty science-literate; has reads lots of books relating to chemistry, etc.   His problem is the math.  We own the Great Courses high school chemistry course, which he can watch beforehand. So it wouldn't be as if he's going in completely cold, with no knowledge at all.   Still, I don't want to set him up for failure.

 

We could try chemistry at  home but I'm simply not sure we can do it well.  Frankly, even if he completes Algebra 1 I'm not sure he'll test out of developmental algebra when he takes his CC placement tests.   I have looked at Rainbow Chemistry and have their Bridge math which we can start as soon as he completes his current alg curriculum (which is Key To Algebra, Great Courses Alg 1, Khan Academy, and lots of time with Dad).    We could do some sort of "conceptual chemistry" class (I think), but I'm not sure I can truthfully call that Chemistry on the transcript.  (I'm also not sure how much the transcript matters for community college.) 

 

Any thoughts?  Thanks!

[bettyandbob]

It's great that your son has the background knowledge in chemistry. The thing that gives me pause is the amount of math he has. I think there's an assumption of Algebra 2 level completion. The problem isn't doing labs. It's doing the math that goes with the labs.

[LinRTX]

My daughter took her first chemistry class at the community college and did fine. There was one for science majors and one for non science majors. She did the later and did fine.

 

Now she did have the math and had done physics in high school (hated it), but did a programming course instead of chemistry her senior year.

 

[Kareni]

Can a person take their first lab Chemistry class in community college, or is it assumed that a student would have completed high school Chemistry?

 

...   We could do some sort of "conceptual chemistry" class (I think), but I'm not sure I can truthfully call that Chemistry on the transcript. 

 

...(I'm also not sure how much the transcript matters for community college.) 

 

Any thoughts?  Thanks!

 

Yes, a student can take his/her first lab Chemistry class at community college.  There will generally be a number of Chemistry offerings.  Those classes that are required for science majors will generally demand more math skills than those intended for non science majors.

 

Your son could take a Conceptual Chemistry class at home, and you could legitimately label it as Conceptual Chemistry on his transcript.  Here's a link to the most recent edition of one Conceptual Chemistry text though an earlier edition would be fine to use (and significantly less expensive) ~

Conceptual Chemistry (5th Edition) by John Suchocki

 

I would find out from the community college whether or not a transcript is required for entering students.  It isn't here, but it might be in some communities.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[klmama]

Is it important that he take chemistry at all?  Not trying to dumb down his education, but the math load in a chem class can sink kids who aren't good at it.  Unless he really wants to do something that requires knowledge of chemistry, you might want to steer him toward other courses.  If he has to take it at the community college, try to have him take it in a semester without other math. 

[Jenn in CA]

Generally a community college won't care about high school transcripts. They rely more on placement tests.

 

And if he's not headed into a science or math major he probably doesn't have to take chemistry at all, if he doesn't want to. He can take some other lab science instead.

[marbel]

Thanks for all the responses.  It is so helpful.  I'll look at Conceptual Chemistry. Actually I had heard of it before so thanks for the reminder.

 

I will clarify - he does not need to take it to satisfy graduation requirements (or his parents :-) ).  He has a strong desire to take it.  He enjoys learning about science but most hard sciences just have too much math for him to handle.   I think he also feels that chemistry is a thing that normal high school students do, kwim?  He is not destined for a science major/field, unless something drastic changes in his brain in the next few years.  

 

I am pretty sure that there are chemistry offerings for non-science majors that are different from the ones for science majors.  We need to check again, but IIRC even the non-major one required a certain level of math that is above him now.   He is planning to take placement tests soon and get one year of dual enrollment in before he graduates, partly to get that math nailed down and partly to ease into college.  

 

Thanks again.  I have to go out but will check back in a few hours.  I so appreciate the wisdom and experience here.

[Sunshine State Sue]

My daughter took her first chemistry class at the community college and did fine. There was one for science majors and one for non science majors. She did the later and did fine.

 

Now she did have the math and had done physics in high school (hated it), but did a programming course instead of chemistry her senior year.

 

Our CC has Intro to Chem for non-science majors and General Chem for science majors.  Take the easiest.

 

Is it important that he take chemistry at all?  Not trying to dumb down his education, but the math load in a chem class can sink kids who aren't good at it.  Unless he really wants to do something that requires knowledge of chemistry, you might want to steer him toward other courses.  If he has to take it at the community college, try to have him take it in a semester without other math. 

 

And if he's not headed into a science or math major he probably doesn't have to take chemistry at all, if he doesn't want to. He can take some other lab science instead.

I have a BA in math and computer studies (the BA equivalent to a BS in computer science) and a MS in Industrial Engineering.  I never took chemistry or physics in high school or college.  Unless he wants to go into the sciences, it may not be necessary.  In fact, the last science class I took was 10th grade biology.  Course, that was many moons ago...

[bettyandbob]

It is true that most high school students these days take some sort of chemistry class. You can put together a high school conceptual chem class that doesn't require a lot of math (perhaps top shelf science fits this). However, at the cc level I'd still be concerned about math.

 

Perhaps you want to take a math placement exam and see where he falls. Our local cc requires the math placement exam for any math or science.

 

There's probably some variability in what qualifies as chem for non majors, but since most students (even at the cc level) have completed algebra 2, I could see a chemistry for non majors set up with the expectation that the students are at that level for math.

[marbel]

It is true that most high school students these days take some sort of chemistry class. You can put together a high school conceptual chem class that doesn't require a lot of math (perhaps top shelf science fits this). However, at the cc level I'd still be concerned about math.

 

Perhaps you want to take a math placement exam and see where he falls. Our local cc requires the math placement exam for any math or science.

 

There's probably some variability in what qualifies as chem for non majors, but since most students (even at the cc level) have completed algebra 2, I could see a chemistry for non majors set up with the expectation that the students are at that level for math.

 

Yes, I am concerned about that too.  I would hate to push off chem to CC only to find he can never get the math level needed for it.  But I looked at the CC requirements again - there is a general chem class that requires 1  year high school algebra, or passing/testing out of their developmental algebra course.  

 

Our CC does require placement tests.  A test can be retaken once, and there are tutoring services to use to try to raise the skills before retaking. 

 

It might be better to do conceptual chem with him at home, as that's a science he wants to do more than any others we've talked about.  Then, when he gets to CC, he can do more if his math supports it.   (Even though he will be finished with Algebra 1 at home, my confidence that he will test out of it is low.)

 

The plan had been for him to do dual enrollment starting in grade 10.  That didn't work out due to health problems etc.  We'd also expected him to be further along in math!   He is one of those bright, interested kids who has hindrances. 

 

But talking this out here is very helpful!   He and I will talk about options tonight. 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

It may be very different now, but 20 years ago I took Intro to Chem at a state College and I hadn't made it past Alg I in H.S.(I got an A)  I would think since he's going to CC you shouldn't have a problem.  Also, maybe he can put off taking Chem until his second year, after he's done the Alg. at CC?

[TarynB]

Yes, I am concerned about that too.  I would hate to push off chem to CC only to find he can never get the math level needed for it.  But I looked at the CC requirements again - there is a general chem class that requires 1  year high school algebra, or passing/testing out of their developmental algebra course.  

 

Our CC does require placement tests.  A test can be retaken once, and there are tutoring services to use to try to raise the skills before retaking. 

 

It might be better to do conceptual chem with him at home, as that's a science he wants to do more than any others we've talked about.  Then, when he gets to CC, he can do more if his math supports it.   (Even though he will be finished with Algebra 1 at home, my confidence that he will test out of it is low.)

 

The plan had been for him to do dual enrollment starting in grade 10.  That didn't work out due to health problems etc.  We'd also expected him to be further along in math!   He is one of those bright, interested kids who has hindrances. 

 

But talking this out here is very helpful!   He and I will talk about options tonight. 

 

 

If you decide to move forward with Conceptual Chemistry at home, also look at the self-study courses, developed by the author (John Suchocki) to go along with the textbook, at http://www.conceptualacademy.com/node/42251.

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

If you did something like Spectrum Chemistry couldn't you or his Dad work the math with him?  Seeing Algebra actually used might help him understand it better too.

[SeekingHim77]

Most community colleges just want your money. :-) No, you do not need Chemistry for community college. I know plenty of people who have degrees that aren't in the science fields and they were never required to take a hard science course in college.

 

My sister's highest math class in high school was algebra 1 and she never took chemistry. She dropped out of school after her junior year. She went back to school a few years later and did great! She went to a CC for her AA and a University to finish out her BA. I don't think she ever took Chemistry.

 

My husband never took algebra or chemistry in high school. He decided to try a few cc classes about 15 years later. They readily accepted him.

 

I will say that both my sister and my husband had to take a remedial math course. My friend's daughter went through Chemistry, Physics, Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry and precalc. She had to take a remedial math course as well. No big deal. They took the course and moved onto taking classes for credit.

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't prepare our children for college. I'm just saying that many, many students go to CC without having taking higher level math and science classes.

[marbel]

If you did something like Spectrum Chemistry couldn't you or his Dad work the math with him?  Seeing Algebra actually used might help him understand it better too.

 

I had forgotten that we'd looked at Spectrum Chemistry a few years ago.  I bought the Bridge Math in anticipation of using it to prep him for that program. Then, we started talking about Community College dual enrollment.   A lot of our plans just didn't work out due to his (now past) health problems and (ongoing, of course) LDs. 

 

So, now I have a few things for him to look at.  Thanks for the suggestions!

 

He really does want to take chemistry; it's not just about fulfilling requirements.  He is very interested.  I still think it would be better in a real lab - I am not a science teacher.  And so many home experiments/demonstrations just don't work out.  But he would prefer to do it at home and then, if he has the opportunity to do it again in college, maybe he will.  Or maybe this will satisfy that desire and he will concentrate on other things.

 

Thanks for talking me through this!

[Lawyer&Mom]

Chemistry is a fascinating subject, and totally worthwhile taking as a general education class. He may not need it, but if you pick the right class he will probably really enjoy it.

[Dmmetler]

You may also want to get the ACS Chemistry in the Community book (and teacher's edition). It's a high school chem class for non-STEM focused kids that incorporates a lot more organic, inorganic, and biochem than the standard high school course, and is very math-light. It's not the easiest to do at home because it's discovery based, but it's a nice class.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'd do the at home version first because unless he's a science major he may not get the chance to take much in the way of Lab sciences.  Most of the Intro science courses don't ever get into a lab environment, IME.  I took Bio, Geology, Chem, and Psychology at College/University and the only one that had a lab was the Psych (I was the lab, the grad students got to run experiments on us). 

 

We'll be using Spectrum because it comes with everything included and from my understanding the instructions are clear and precise.

[Tsuga]

Having a hard time titling this thread so it's clear.  It still probably isn't!   This is LD-related but I don't think it quite fits in to that board.

 

My son (rising senior) is not going to get Chem done in high school.  He would like to, but he doesn't have the math yet.  (He was sick for 3 years, about grades 8 - 10, and has been dx'd with a math disorder, so he is still working through algebra 1.)

 

He is destined for community college after high school, not applying to go off to 4-year university.  My question is - 

 

Can a person take their first lab Chemistry class in community college, or is it assumed that a student would have completed high school Chemistry?

 

They would not have to have completed HS chemistry in any CC that I know of. However, it is very common for them to place into college-level math as well as English 101 before taking 100-level courses like chem, physics, etc. Many CC students are non-traditional or have LDs. But you would not want to take a course if you had not yet a strong handle on algebra and the ability to read basic (HS level) technical writing.

 

 

Frankly, even if he completes Algebra 1 I'm not sure he'll test out of developmental algebra when he takes his CC placement tests.  

 

In that case I would scrap the Chem and focus on a very, very strong algebra foundation. He's better off spending his time really letting his brain wrap around that and maybe even working to find something he's passionate about, than putting something on a transcript.

 

I have looked at Rainbow Chemistry and have their Bridge math which we can start as soon as he completes his current alg curriculum (which is Key To Algebra, Great Courses Alg 1, Khan Academy, and lots of time with Dad).    We could do some sort of "conceptual chemistry" class (I think), but I'm not sure I can truthfully call that Chemistry on the transcript.  (I'm also not sure how much the transcript matters for community college.) 

 

Any thoughts?  Thanks!

 

I do think that transcript won't matter. CC will have college-level chemistry which should be designed for anyone with algebra to take because though many students take three or four sciences, few students take every single area of science and those that do are not the traditional CC student in most cases, and if they go to CC, they will just have to deal with courses that review a bit of what they already know.

 

My thought is, for your son with an LD and an illness that set him back two years, is to get math, reading and logic up to as high a level as possible. Forget subject matter--anything else will be covered in-depth in college anyway. He needs, at this point, very strong math skills, ideally through at least geometry, and very, very strong reading skills and study skills.

 

With that, he can start at pre-college level in CC and work his way through slowly but surely. I have seen students do it. Some of them even go into biochem, physics, etc. after a 10-year break. It's a lot of work but they have an advantage over those who start with a lot of ego and expectation of easy classes, which is that they are used to working. He has that going for him.

 

Best of luck.

 

[SeekingHim77]

In my previous post, I stated that community colleges just want your money. I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean that they are money hungry institutions. I simply meant that as long as you pay up, they will probably accept you. Apologies for not making myself clear from the beginning.

[marbel]

In my previous post, I stated that community colleges just want your money. I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean that they are money hungry institutions. I simply meant that as long as you pay up, they will probably accept you. Apologies for not making myself clear from the beginning.

 

I didn't take it that way.  

 

He has been accepted at our local CC for dual enrollment.  They pretty much do take everyone. :-)  He hasn't taken placement tests yet.  But yes, as long as he meets any pre-reqs he can take classes.  :-)

 

[AngieW in Texas]

I would do conceptual chemistry at home if he wants to take a chemistry course unless your cc offers it as a course. Our local cc offers conceptual physics, but not conceptual chemistry.

 

My 17yo has a lot of issues with math, so I did conceptual physics with her in 9th grade and conceptual chemistry with her in 10th grade. She took Life on Earth (only biology course at our cc that did not require student to place into college algebra) at the cc for 11th grade. She is going to take either a higher level biology or a higher level of chemistry or physics at the cc for 12th grade in the spring.