Still conflicted about continuing with Singapore and ranting about it

[Tiramisu]

Dd told me today that she wants to continue with Singapore and won't use another program. She is not in a good place emotionally right now and I know I need her cooperation to make this year work. But she wants to do it herself and won't let me teach her. FWIW, I realize this is NOT the right way to do Singapore. (Yeah, I've moaned about this before.)

 

So I looked at the online supplement that is available for Singapore and it's not really as easy to navigate through and coordinate with the workbooks as I had hoped. I don't want to spend $99 for something that's not easy to use.

 

I wish I had an answer for this because I anticipate her becoming very frustrated through the year. Or maybe she's really intuitive and I'm underestimating her. 

 

To make it worse, I've looked at the Standards Edition, which has the review I want, and the textbook gives me a cluttered, pressured feeling. I never got this feeling from the U.S. Edition. I can be very fussy about visuals. Perhaps it's a sensory thing, but I can't be visually overloaded AND try to teach someone who doesn't want to be taught, not without smoke coming out of my ears.

 

It won't be the end of the world if we just stay with the U.S. Edition, will it? We will miss some topics that people think are important these days, but I can try to add in EM Daily Math Practice to catch some odds and ends. We'll finish the year early with the U.S. Edition and then work through the Extra Practice book or a CLE light unit or two.

 

What d'y'all think? (Asks the mom from NJ)

[kateingr]

I know a lot of people prefer Standards edition, but the U.S. Edition is great, too. Yes, using just the U.S. Edition will be just fine.

[MerryAtHope]

What if you told her:

 

Singapore is designed so that the parent needs to teach it. We can use it again but you have to agree to work with me and let me teach you. I can let you try first from examples if you like (If they don't provide them, you could give her a written example to follow from one of the problems & write out how to do the rod diagrams etc...), but then if it's wrong, you have to let me teach you.

 

If you want an independent program where a video or book will be your teacher, then we need to look at different programs.

 

In other words--make VERY clear up front what her choice is going to mean.

 

You might even have her look at some online samples of other programs before she makes a final decision.

[prairiewindmomma]

We use US edition.

 

How does she like games?  I'm guessing the underlying issue is rigidity? Given the totality of all that is going on with her, I'd suggest starting with a "game time", followed by a part where she only has to watch what it is that you are doing.  Bring out the workbooks only when she has learned the concept and then tell her it's time to "do math".

[Tiramisu]

I know a lot of people prefer Standards edition, but the U.S. Edition is great, too. Yes, using just the U.S. Edition will be just fine.

 

Thank you for that reassurance. :)

[Tiramisu]

What if you told her:

 

Singapore is designed so that the parent needs to teach it. We can use it again but you have to agree to work with me and let me teach you. I can let you try first from examples if you like (If they don't provide them, you could give her a written example to follow from one of the problems & write out how to do the rod diagrams etc...), but then if it's wrong, you have to let me teach you.

 

If you want an independent program where a video or book will be your teacher, then we need to look at different programs.

 

In other words--make VERY clear up front what her choice is going to mean.

 

You might even have her look at some online samples of other programs before she makes a final decision.

 

I'll try it. I might actually have dh discuss it with her. She takes whatever he says very seriously and tends to accept it more easily.

[Tiramisu]

We use US edition.

 

How does she like games?  I'm guessing the underlying issue is rigidity? Given the totality of all that is going on with her, I'd suggest starting with a "game time", followed by a part where she only has to watch what it is that you are doing.  Bring out the workbooks only when she has learned the concept and then tell her it's time to "do math".

 

Yes. She's so rigid! But she loves games so it might work. If I could get her into a routine, that would be the best. So she knows what to expect. Perhaps if I tell her I will only take a certain amount of time so she knows there's an end in sight.

 

I think with her temperament the U.S. edition might be a better match since it focuses on fewer topics. I don't think I could do much with the activities from the home instructor's guide--that would be too much to ask--but I could lead her through the textbook if she agrees to it.

 

For so many years, I scribed my 14 yo's math work. We were stuck together like glue for math lessons, but this one wants nothing to do with me teaching. :(

[Tiramisu]

What if you told her:

 

Singapore is designed so that the parent needs to teach it. We can use it again but you have to agree to work with me and let me teach you. I can let you try first from examples if you like (If they don't provide them, you could give her a written example to follow from one of the problems & write out how to do the rod diagrams etc...), but then if it's wrong, you have to let me teach you.

 

If you want an independent program where a video or book will be your teacher, then we need to look at different programs.

 

In other words--make VERY clear up front what her choice is going to mean.

 

You might even have her look at some online samples of other programs before she makes a final decision.

 

She's already seen some CLE light units. We still have the answer keys from my older dd. I've also been looking seriously at Saxon Intermediate and their adaptations workbooks. They seem ideal for kids who want to work independently. 

[ktgrok]

If she really wants to be independent, Teaching Textbooks would be my suggestion. 

[blue plaid]

Would Math in Focus be a possibility? It is Singapore math but has actual instruction in the textbook. I have found it to be user friendly.

[Tiramisu]

UPDATE: Dd came home last night happy from a night out with dh. Then she saw me looking at math books online and started to cry. She cried herself to sleep. This really is a stinky situation.

[SnMomof7]

DD2 is very resistant to direct teaching. CLE works very well for her.

[skueppers]

Wow, that's a tough situation. How does she envision this working? She does the work by herself, you correct it, and then she figures out for herself how to fix it?

 

Honestly, that *could* work, depending on the kid. All I do in "teaching" Singapore with my kids is go through the textbook with them. Every now and again, I have to offer some additional explanations or demonstrations. Oh, and we use the U.S. Edition.

 

If I were in this situation, I would probably say something like, "you are absolutely welcome to try it this way. I'm going to make some notes in your textbook about which Khan Academy videos and exercises match up with each section of your book, in case you need to look at it from another perspective in order for it to make sense. Once you finish the Singapore curriculum for the year, I'm going to expect you to review the material on Khan Academy until the start of the next school year, so you'll be sure to be in a good place to start the next year's math."

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hepatica]

I understand liking Singapore. I might be inclined just to let her try it on her own if she is motivated to do so. If she is really struggling then you could make further suggestions or re-evaluate.

 

I have used the US Edition only (sticking my fingers in my ears about the Standards Edition) with two DDs. Both transitioned seamlessly from US Edition (after 5B and 6A respectively) to the Singapore Dimensions Math 7A, which is common core aligned. Not sure what they purportedly missed (since I had my fingers in my ears), but whatever it was it didn't seem to make a difference in their ability to learn Algebra and Geometry.

[TheAttachedMama]

Dd told me today that she wants to continue with Singapore and won't use another program. She is not in a good place emotionally right now and I know I need her cooperation to make this year work. But she wants to do it herself and won't let me teach her. FWIW, I realize this is NOT the right way to do Singapore. (Yeah, I've moaned about this before.)

 

So I looked at the online supplement that is available for Singapore and it's not really as easy to navigate through and coordinate with the workbooks as I had hoped. I don't want to spend $99 for something that's not easy to use.

 

I wish I had an answer for this because I anticipate her becoming very frustrated through the year. Or maybe she's really intuitive and I'm underestimating her. 

 

To make it worse, I've looked at the Standards Edition, which has the review I want, and the textbook gives me a cluttered, pressured feeling. I never got this feeling from the U.S. Edition. I can be very fussy about visuals. Perhaps it's a sensory thing, but I can't be visually overloaded AND try to teach someone who doesn't want to be taught, not without smoke coming out of my ears.

 

It won't be the end of the world if we just stay with the U.S. Edition, will it? We will miss some topics that people think are important these days, but I can try to add in EM Daily Math Practice to catch some odds and ends. We'll finish the year early with the U.S. Edition and then work through the Extra Practice book or a CLE light unit or two.

 

What d'y'all think? (Asks the mom from NJ)

 

What do I think?  

I think that you are the mother (and parent-teacher!) and she is the child. 

 

I think that in 4th grade a child is not ready to have a final say in curriculum decisions. 

 

I think that you take her feelings into consideration (of course!), BUT you need to have final say in how math is taught / curriculum choice. 

 

I think you very respectfully and lovingly state:   "IF you want to use Singapore, I need to teach you the lesson.   IF you want to do it yourself, I need to find you another math program that is designed to be student independent." 

 

I think if you don't do this, she will have a WHOLE lot of frustration and possibly even some gaps in her math education.   The workbook simply doesn't cover everything that you are suppose to teach in Singapore.  The HIG is a goldmine!

 

I say this very gently and with lots of love because I don't want YOU to end up feeling frustrated this year.   (Your feelings matter too!) 

Because, as you stated yourself, Singapore is not designed to work the way she wants it to work.   No matter how badly she wants it to work this way, it just wasn't designed to work the way she wants it to.    I can badly want my car to fly, but it isn't designed to do this.  :) 

 

If she wants to teach herself, I would suggest switching her to something similar (but student taught) like Math Mammoth.  

[prairiewindmomma]

FWIW, I do think the underlying issue is rigidity and you might get a more comprehensive answer if you post on the SN or learning challenges board. There is a balance, and I think this same issue of rigidity needs to be addressed as you still have a lot of years of schooling ahead of you.

[kirstenhill]

I could have written a really similar post a couple years ago but insert "Right Start" instead of Singapore. I started getting pushback from Dd about me teaching her during her math lesson about half way thru 3rd grade. We did a brief test of MM and to be honest she was just confused/stressed by the presentation and the cluttered pages. DD swore up and down before 4th grade that she really wanted to stick with RightStart, so I told her a similar thing - that the only way it would work is if she agreed to listen to my presentation of the lesson.

 

Well, when 4th grade started I was getting just as much if not more pushback and math anxiety from her. She really, really hated me going thru the lesson with her. And yet she still kept insisting she didn't want to switch! I finally decided she had just as much anxiety/Negative feelings about change as about the math itself. I decided for various reasons that CLE would be a good fit for her, and we switched in Nov. of her 4th grade year. The lessons are really long, but I often cross out many review problems (she needs some spiral review and practice, but not as much as cle gives). I also on new concepts allow her to show me that if she can do a couple problems perfectly, she doesn't need to do all the problems of the same type. She still doesn't love math and sometimes gets stressed out (oh, long division...I'm looking at you!), but by far we have had far less arguing, yelling, fighting and stress over math since we switched.

 

ETA - I didn't really win her over before we made the switch. I just eventually said, "this is what I think is best for you. We are going to try it for the rest of this year, and then we can reevaluate." I got some grumbling for the first week or two, but with appropriate motivations (honestly, some rewards as well as some possible privilege losing if she continued to grumble about the change) she did pretty well, and admitted herself before long that cle was a much better fit.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'd let her try, and if she fails, she fails, and you can regroup and correct course.  Has she seen Math Mammoth? If she wants Singapore-style math, but done independently, it might be a good fit for her.  It's designed to be fairly self-teaching.

[jenniferlee]

I think:

Just let her try it on her own.  Do the us edition textbooks and workbooks.  She'll be fine.  And if she's not, you can try again later.  Not worth the battle, unless you feel that it is a discipline/rebellion issue.   In  my experience, gaps are easily closed later.  

Jen

[displace]

Maybe dreambox as a supplement? It's Singapore based lessons. It teaches the student. Idk if she may think it's too young for her though.

[Tiramisu]

FWIW, I do think the underlying issue is rigidity and you might get a more comprehensive answer if you post on the SN or learning challenges board. There is a balance, and I think this same issue of rigidity needs to be addressed as you still have a lot of years of schooling ahead of you.

 

Today, I went ahead and made an appointment with a neurodevelopmental pediatrician. An older doctor who seems to have a lot of experience and who seems to be respected in the field. 

 

It's just a very difficult time. Even her therapist decided therapy is too much for her right now. I've gone myself without her to get ideas and keep communicating with a psychiatrist and her pediatrician.

[Tiramisu]

I'd let her try, and if she fails, she fails, and you can regroup and correct course.  Has she seen Math Mammoth? If she wants Singapore-style math, but done independently, it might be a good fit for her.  It's designed to be fairly self-teaching.

 

I ordered a Math Mammoth text from RR to get a look at it. I actually like it, though I'm not thrilled with the scanty review.

 

My concern with Math Mammoth is that the pages are cluttered as a PP mentioned. She has developmental vision problems and is in vision therapy right now. I would almost want to wait until VT is done or until her vision is assessed near the end of summer to see if she might have a chance with it.

 

I know it's strange but format and white space are important factor in math curriculum choice.

[Tiramisu]

I think:

Just let her try it on her own.  Do the us edition textbooks and workbooks.  She'll be fine.  And if she's not, you can try again later.  Not worth the battle, unless you feel that it is a discipline/rebellion issue.   In  my experience, gaps are easily closed later.  

Jen

 

It's very hard to sort out right now what's discipline and what's not. She underwent a huge personality change a few months ago. She was happy, cute, and a little quirky before, but suddenly became very hard to deal with about everything. I spoke with developmental pediatrician today who another mom recommended to me. He thinks that mono could have affected her brain. That's the only thing that came up on her blood test. He thinks an MRI might be necessary. And referred me to a neuro-developmental pediatrician who works with other specialists. He told me we need a diagnosis. It was so good to have someone validate me on that.

 

It's not easy and math is only part of it.

[Tiramisu]

What do I think?

I think that you are the mother (and parent-teacher!) and she is the child. 

 

I think that in 4th grade a child is not ready to have a final say in curriculum decisions. 

 

I think that you take her feelings into consideration (of course!), BUT you need to have final say in how math is taught / curriculum choice. 

 

I think you very respectfully and lovingly state:   "IF you want to use Singapore, I need to teach you the lesson.   IF you want to do it yourself, I need to find you another math program that is designed to be student independent." 

 

I think if you don't do this, she will have a WHOLE lot of frustration and possibly even some gaps in her math education.   The workbook simply doesn't cover everything that you are suppose to teach in Singapore.  The HIG is a goldmine!

 

I say this very gently and with lots of love because I don't want YOU to end up feeling frustrated this year.   (Your feelings matter too!) 

Because, as you stated yourself, Singapore is not designed to work the way she wants it to work.   No matter how badly she wants it to work this way, it just wasn't designed to work the way she wants it to.    I can badly want my car to fly, but it isn't designed to do this.  :)

 

If she wants to teach herself, I would suggest switching her to something similar (but student taught) like Math Mammoth.  

 

It's going to come down to me making a decision and lovingly but firmly telling her. Then dh will have to talk to her to help her understand. She is hurting so much right now and so negative that my hope is that she will help make the choice for the sake of having her invested in it later. I realize that might not work, but I'm trying.

 

Last night she cried herself to sleep after the math book trigger, but she also cried herself to sleep for the two nights before that. She's completely out of sorts. But she is doing VT.

[TheAttachedMama]

You know--now that I read more about what is going on---it sounds like she is going through a LOT right now.   What if you put this math decision on hold for awhile??  There is no reason things have to be decided now, right?   It sounds like for the sake of your relationship (and her health) she might just need to cool out for awhile.   Math is really important.  (I'm someone who LOVES math)  BUT your relationship is much more important.   People come before math workbooks.   :) 

 

If I were you, I would spend a few weeks or a month just trying to reconnect with her emotionally before I even brought up math.   Who cares about starting school in the fall?? 

----------

On a side note---The reason there is not a lot of review in Math Mammoth is because they give a TON of practice problems.  (Much, much more than you will find in Singapore.)   This can be good or bad depending on the kid.   Some kids need that much practice.  But for other kids it will sap any joy they find in math right out of them!   So, if you switch to MM, I would warn you that you may not want to assign her EVERY problem in the book.  

 

MM also has downloadable single subject review texts that you can download from their website for VERY cheap..  A lot of people use these for tutoring or targeted review.   SO---say for example, she needs targeted review in just one thing, you can download one of these practice texts and use those.   

[Soror]

I order a Math Mammoth text from RR to get a look at it. I actually like it, though I'm not thrilled with the scanty review.

 

My concern with Math Mammoth is that the pages are cluttered as a PP mentioned. She has developmental vision problems and is in vision therapy right now. I would almost want to wait until VT is done or until her vision is assessed near the end of summer to see if she might have a chance with it.

 

I know it's strange but format and white space are important factor in math curriculum choice.

My oldest dd is very independent too, although she doesn't have any vision issues or such. Horizons is working pretty well for her because it is so incremental and spiral she usually doesn't need me too much, she does what she can and then I help her with what she can't do on her own. I like it because it is nice and solid, only bad thing is that visually three is a lot there. On the other hand I've just started MM with ds, the full curriculum and am really liking it so far, it seems the revised edition has much more white space and it is self-teaching, so that might work and it is a good strong program as well. Ds did some CLE last year and he was able to do it on his own fairly well but IMO I just think it is too easy.

[Momofeat]

My opinion:

 

If you can bring yourself to take a break from math right now, I think it's worth taking a break--especially since there may be medical issues going on in the background.

 

If I were in your situation and felt that we must trudge forward, I would drop Singapore rather than trying to do it and then being put in a situation where I would have to drop it later. I say this because I've had similar situations with my dc, and it has never worked out the way we all hoped it would. At this point, the red flags are waving, and I would not go there.

 

Would it work for you to pick a couple of math programs you think she could do independently, and then let her make the final choice between the two? She would still have a say, but both programs would be a better match for your situation.

 

[Tiramisu]

My opinion:

 

If you can bring yourself to take a break from math right now, I think it's worth taking a break--especially since there may be medical issues going on in the background.

 

If I were in your situation and felt that we must trudge forward, I would drop Singapore rather than trying to do it and then being put in a situation where I would have to drop it later. I say this because I've had similar situations with my dc, and it has never worked out the way we all hoped it would. At this point, the red flags are waving, and I would not go there.

 

Would it work for you to pick a couple of math programs you think she could do independently, and then let her make the final choice between the two? She would still have a say, but both programs would be a better match for your situation.

 

I like the idea of giving her two or even three things to choose from. My options at this point would be, as far as self-teaching, Saxon Intermediate 4 (they have Teacher CDs for $$ if they were necessary), MM 4, CLE, and possibly MIF, since it's on sale at Marbel. TT would also be an option, though not a first choice since I hate programs that depend on technology for the substance of it.

 

I could tell her we'll just choose one of these until she feels better about dealing with me and doing Singapore. Then she might just say she'll deal with me teaching. I really don't think the days are going to be easy but it would be a start.

[Tiramisu]

My oldest dd is very independent too, although she doesn't have any vision issues or such. Horizons is working pretty well for her because it is so incremental and spiral she usually doesn't need me too much, she does what she can and then I help her with what she can't do on her own. I like it because it is nice and solid, only bad thing is that visually three is a lot there. On the other hand I've just started MM with ds, the full curriculum and am really liking it so far, it seems the revised edition has much more white space and it is self-teaching, so that might work and it is a good strong program as well. Ds did some CLE last year and he was able to do it on his own fairly well but IMO I just think it is too easy.

 

I haven't looked at Horizons in a long time...I used it years ago for another dd and I liked how it was set up.

[shinyhappypeople]

I order a Math Mammoth text from RR to get a look at it. I actually like it, though I'm not thrilled with the scanty review.

 

My concern with Math Mammoth is that the pages are cluttered as a PP mentioned. She has developmental vision problems and is in vision therapy right now. I would almost want to wait until VT is done or until her vision is assessed near the end of summer to see if she might have a chance with it.

 

I know it's strange but format and white space are important factor in math curriculum choice.

 

Hmm.... if you buy the pdf you can zoom in and print out sections at a time to give the page more white space.  I'm doing a TERRIBLE job explaining what I mean (sorry!) so hopefully someone who knows what I'm trying to say can explain it better!

 

I hear you on the vision issues.  They add a whole new dimension of challenge.  DD has convergence insufficiency and doesn't seem bothered by the format BUT that's just her.  MM is her math of choice. 

 

(((Good luck))) It can be tough finding the right path to take.

[Momofeat]

I do understand what you mean about clutter. CLE worked for us because the problems were spaced pretty far apart, and dd could write directly in the book.

[visitor]

Tiramisu I can't see the complete problem from my smartphone but if your child is not feeling well and is crying a lot . My top priority would be here happiness. I am sure you are doing that as well. I think a small break would be the best thing to do. Top priority is her well being and happiness. I would decide after the MRI scan what to do with Math !

[Tiramisu]

Tiramisu I can't see the complete problem from my smartphone but if your child is not feeling well and is crying a lot . My top priority would be here happiness. I am sure you are doing that as well. I think a small break would be the best thing to do. Top priority is her well being and happiness. I would decide after the MRI scan what to do with Math !

 

We are taking a break with no schoolwork this summer at all. I plan to start back in the second or third week of September. The specialist's appointment is not until the end of October. And we don't know if an MRI will be ordered. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

A psyciatrist prescribed medication, but I wanted to fill the summer with fun activities and see if that makes a difference. So far, it's hard to say.

 

Dh honestly thinks what I choose doesn't matter. Maybe he's right. I agree that her happiness and well-being are the most important things. And, though I have my preferences, wheatever gets done will be good enough.

[Momling]

My daughter had a rough time in 4th grade about math.  It was bad enough that we turned to TT simply as a solution to our mother-daughter math crisis.   However, after a semester of that, she requested returning to Singapore and we continued on with it after that.  She still has no love for math, but she's reached a point of acceptance about it and she gets the work done.  I really noticed the improvement in attitude towards work around age 11 or 12, but it was worst at 9 and 10.  Just to add another thought... looking back, I realize now she was an early developer and the tears and frustration and oppositional behavior was definitely related to puberty. 

[Tiramisu]

UPDATE

 

I talked to dh and we made a decision. He loves what he sees in dd's mathematical ability and he attributes that to Singapore, so he likes the idea of sticking with it. He says she has responded well to doing math with him in the past so he's going to give it a shot at being her regular math teacher.

 

He agrees we need something for review, and I have a grade four Evan-Moor Daily Math Practice book we can use for that. It's only five problems a day but it covers all the important areas. It frustrated her a bit when I tried it in the spring because there were some things she hadn't seen before so I'm going to check it out again and if necessary we can start off the year with a page of a Flashkids third grade math book added to the Singapore lessons each day. When we finish that, we can add in the Evan-Moor.

[visitor]

Sounds good ! Good luck