Teasing

[Storygirl]

I mentioned this in another thread but thought it deserved its own. DS11 is a gymnast and has been at a new gym since April, due to a move to a new town. He's having a bit of trouble, because he is being teased by some of the other boys, who are mostly older (young teens). He would come home saying that he was being teased but couldn't tell if it was good-natured or mean. I decided to bring it up with the coach.

 

The coach said that he thought the teasing was regular boy stuff but that DS was taking it the wrong way. He said that the boys would say something to be silly or teasing.  DS would respond in an unexpectedly angry way (because he thought they were being mean), and then the other boys would respond in kind to DS's anger. In other words, Coach thinks that DS takes it the wrong way and that DS is the one who ramps it up from good-natured teasing to something more confrontational.

 

DS has trouble reading social cues (he has NVLD), and he is also quick to anger, so I can see this happening, even though he hasn't had this kind of issue in the past.

 

The coach said that if there is one particular boy who seems to be at the center of the trouble, he would be willing to pull that boy aside to explain that DS has a disability and doesn't always understand teasing.

 

So now we've been telling DS that if he can't tell if something is fun teasing or mean teasing, to react to it as if it is meant in fun. To not get angry but just brush it off. I have mixed feelings about this, because I don't want him to learn that he shouldn't stand up for himself.

 

Here is an example of the kind of teasing that happens. One boy will say, "How do you spell FAKE." DS will reply, "F-A-K-E," and the other boy responds, "No, it's (insert DS's name)." DS says he is not the only target of this joke and that all the boys say it to one another, so I think it may just be a normal boy thing and not targeted directly at DS.

 

I do suspect that they have picked up on the fact that DS doesn't know how to take it or how to respond, and so they do it to him more. This is only a suspicion, based on the boys that I have known, including my own sons -- that if they sense a weakness, they are likely to poke at it.

 

This whole teasing thing is an interesting social conundrum. I've been thinking of that incident last year where some kids told a boy with autism that they were going to do the ice-bucket challenge with him and then dumped a bucket of human waste on him instead. I want DS to be able to roll with the punches when he is faced with normal boyish teasing and hijinks, but I do not want to teach him that he should just accept all teasing as good-natured and fun, because obviously there are bullies out there.

 

The coach doesn't think these boys are bullies. I want to believe him. But then sometimes coaches don't really see it. Or don't want to see it. This is not the kind of thing that I can observe for myself, because it is taking place in the locker room or out on the gymnastics floor, where parents can't go. DS is not there more than five minutes before class starts and does not linger after class, so these things are happening during the actual practices. Also, there is only one coach, and he sometimes divides the boys into two groups, so he is not always in hearing distance of what is going on.

 

So, if you have handled this issue of teasing with a child with a social disability, how did you go about it?

[PeterPan]

It's really telling that the coach is asking you to ignore you own, NT moral gut reaction to what's going on.

[Doodlebug]

I'm dealing with this for the first time as mom of a 9 year old, so I'll just share my observations and hope they help.  

 

DS had to deal with antagonizing behavior in a team sport for the first time this year, and I wish I'd spent less time focused on the other child's motives.  What mattered, and I now see in hindsight, is that the activity failed to meet the goals for which I had DS participating in it--fun confidence building.  I guess if every activity DS participated in went like this, it would be harder.  But it was specific to this team, and one kid.  So, we let it go and joined a new team.    

 

Now here's the interesting part.  The new team has some challenging kids, boys and girls DS's age.  But the coach is full-on engaged 100 percent of the time.  Those kids get 2 water breaks, but the coach puts them through their activities and is constantly encouraging, coming alongside.    

 

Not-a-single-problem.  All. Season.  

 

So, I say the "problem" is the coach.  And based on the conversation you shared, I'd be fully confident that things are not going to get better.  There are some kids who do just fine with laid back teachers/coaches.  And then, there are kids (like The Antagonizer) who need a fully engaged coach to keep his/her energies focused, and that makes the whole class breathe a sigh of relief.  Your kiddo, if he's like mine, needs a sigh of relief... I wish I'd seen that earlier.  

 

Hugs,

Doodlebug

 

 

 

 

 

[MomatHWTK]

The decision I've made is that if I can't be there and the adult in charge isn't aware enough to handle my child's needs, then it isn't the right place for my child.  I have places my child refuses to go now because of mishandled teasing in the past.  :(  You can help your child work out what is OK and what isn't by direct instruction but that requires ongoing and intensive effort on your part.  I have found that new and unexpected situations come up almost constantly when we are out in the world and they require my one on one instruction for the first exposure. 

 

There are books and other guides out there specifically written for SN kids that might help you.  I'd look into those to help your DS also.  Sorry I don't have a better answer.  The tween/teen years are rough for social interaction. 

[FairProspects]

Nm. Obviously not my conversation.

[OneStepAtATime]

I tend to agree, the problem is the coach for not instilling and enforcing team conduct rules. 

 

DS was in a karate class.  We put him in after his disastrous 2nd grade year with a belittling teacher.  He was emotionally fragile.  The younger coach handled the newbies.  He was awesome.  He was very careful to discuss proper conduct, how to treat the other kids in the class and what was expected of each child every day, not just in class.  The rules of conduct were written on the board and reviewed often.  He was encouraging, supportive, and helped the kids work through their differences very proactively.  DS thrived and made friends.  

 

Then the younger man left, along with another outstanding coach.  The one that was left is not an evil man.  He just has no interest in working with kids on social skills and cares not one whit if they are teasing or arguing or whatever as long as the class keeps moving forward.  DS started coming home depressed, sometimes crying, and once in a while with bruises.  One day he got the wind knocked completely out of him and his stomach hurt for days.  Why?  A couple of older boys were very rough and liked to pick on the littler kids.  The coach thought it would "toughen them up" so he did little to intervene.  One of those boys was actually a friend of DSs from before the class.  He was the one who sucker punched him in the gut.  It really hurt physically but emotionally it was devastating.  Talking to the coach ended up being a complete waste of time.  We pulled DS out.

 

 

ETA:  I just read FPs response.  I do agree that we need to help our kids handle these situations on their own.   Totally get that.  We can't always be there.  

 

But sometimes kids are not yet ready for that and the emotional damage can last a lifetime if they aren't ready, don't have the coping skills, but are left to fend for themselves.  That became very obvious to me when I read that thread on bullying last year.  All the people that responded with heartbreaking bullying and harsh teasing stories that have haunted them for a life time.  They needed help that they did not get.  I would not want that for my child.

[FairProspects]

Nm.

[MomatHWTK]

Do you know what a NVLD is?  You do understand we are discussing children with varying degrees of social disability?  I can't speak for anoyone else, but my advice is given based on the work I've done with trained professionals who asist me in dealing with my child's ASD and other issues.  Your implication that these kids should be able to just roll with the scene and work it out is quite hurtful.  If it were that easy, I certainly could have saved myself a lot of money, time and heartache over years.

[FairProspects]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be hurtful and we all parent differently. I don't have kids with NVLD or ASD, but I do have a kid with SPD who doesn't correctly process social interactions, so I felt I could comment but perhaps that was in error. Again, I did not mean to be offensive. My apologies.

[PeterPan]

Oh my goodness, I, for my part, wasn't offended by your post (FP) at all and was bummed you deleted!  I LIKE having my thoughts challenged.  I don't think the truth is any ONE way on this kind of stuff, because usually both parts are needed and it's important to know when the one stage is appropriate and when it's time for another.  And you know, I'm so not quite typical that I really appreciate that challenge to think through things socially a different way, to consider how far we COULD get just by using coping techniques.  After all, those same people bullying and teasing are likely to show that same nasty behavior to others as well.  It's not like other people don't have to deal with it.  I think we can acknowledge something isn't right or crosses a line and still be open to multiple tools for how to handle it and using wisdom to decide which is the most appropriate.  And I realized, after I read your post, that I hadn't not thought through what a sissy (not to be crass, but there you go) we could turn our kids into if we always defend them.

 

So I have no room for disability-based bullying, which it sounds like is happening, nor for emotional manipulation (you don't have the right to be angry or interpret it according to social norms, you're always wrong), but I do think it's ok to end things when appropriate AND to teach resilience for as far as that can get us.  It's ALL true, seems to me.

 

I don't know what has been going on to make you feel so fringe or different lately, but I hope you know I think different is GOOD.  If we were all alike here, why bother to post?   :)

[Lecka]

I do not know, other than to say this sounds like a problem area that needs to be addressed with your son.  

 

Maybe it could help to practice at home, how he could respond.  Maybe he could learn some jokes to tell, too.  

 

I have read things that say teasing is a way that people show they are friends, and that they have an informal relationship with each other.  

 

Maybe that is the function of this teasing.

 

Maybe they are really being mean but are doing it behind the coach's back.  

 

I don't know.  

 

But if people say things that are innocuous and he responds in a hostile way, that is not a good thing for him.  I think it is possible that this is what is happening.  I have heard this mentioned at my autism support group, but I do not really know what they recommended.  I think they would say to write a social story, model conversations, and do social post-mortems where you try to re-play what has happened and see if you understood other people.  Also you can watch movies or videos and point out when there is friendly teasing.  

 

It is all stuff that is not for my son's age level right now, so I really don't know about it.  But I have heard it brought up, so I think there are autism-related resources for it out there.  

 

But I think an important thing to focus on is "what can my son say/do instead of what he is doing right now."  What change can he make.  Either he can go along with teasing and tease back.  Or, he can say he doesn't like it, but in a different way that does not come across as hostile or super-defensive.  Either one might be good.   

 

 

[PeterPan]

Lecka, you're always so awesome at this stuff!  I didn't know you were allowed to tease back, hmm.  That would be really practical advice she could try.  On the saying you don't like it approach, what are some ways he can do that without seeming sort of wimpy or sissy-ish?  I mean, that could turn REALLY the wrong way, really fast.  It seems like a good idea, but it would be the thing to figure out how.

 

(I'm asking because I'm saving up ideas for my ds when this hits in a few years, oy.)

[PeterPan]

Story, does your ds accept teasing within your own home?  I think teasing may be common in socially typical families.  Is it something that didn't go well so you have sort of rearranged even healthy, normal levels, giving him less exposure and opportunities to deal with it?  

 

I don't know, just throwing that out.  I know I almost never tease, because I'm more digging and nasty.  I don't really have a nice, socially appropriate level of tease, and teasing comes across REALLY WRONG to me.  Jokes, skits that pick on people groups, etc. are the same way.  Anyways, I've noticed that as dd is getting older dh has picked up that sort of socially typical level of teasing.  It's something I'm really on the fringes of and just watch happening.  I'm just saying if you and your dh are socially typical, you could try to increase his exposure to that in a healthy way, just to help him work through it.

[Lecka]

At the autism workshop I went to last month, there was an example from one of the speakers.  It sounds a little dated now, but it was a young man who had another boy say to him "what's up, dawg?" and the young man got really upset and responded in a rude way.  He thought he was being called a dog.  But it was meant in a friendly way.

 

The speaker used a social cartoon (???? a something cartoon anyway) and drew a picture of the boys, and the boy on the left had a thought bubble saying "why is he upset, I didn't mean to make him upset, I don't know why he is upset" type of stuff (but it sounded good, lol).  The boy on the right had a thought bubble saying "I am so upset, b/c he called me a dog, he is being mean to me." 

 

Then on the bottom she wrote out a thing saying why they thought different things.  

 

Then it said "when he calls me dawg, he is being friendly to me.  this is a way that two kids can talk.  we do not call teachers dawg.  when he says it to me again, I will say what's up dawg back to him."  

 

Then they practiced it.  

 

In the workshop she said it worked out good for this young man, b/c it made sense to him after that.  

 

But they do not come to workshops and share the times when it did not go so well, lolololol.  

 

Oh, the speaker was Brenda Smith Myles.  She has written this book:  http://www.amazon.com/The-Hidden-Curriculum-Understanding-Situations-ebook/dp/B00A4HO3EI   But I don't know if the social cartoon is in that book, or if she was just sharing it.  I don't know.  It seemed good when I saw it in the speech!  It seemed really good, lol.  

 

Edit:  Oh, this is a book about making cartoon strips.  http://www.amazon.com/Comic-Strip-Conversations-Carol-Gray/dp/1885477228/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436377729&sr=8-1&keywords=cartoon+strip+conversations  I have seen examples at the parent support group.  But it is like -- the speech therapist makes them up.  You make them up.  I have never done it, it is not my son's age, though he has had social stories but in a different format.  But they seem popular at the parent support group.  

[PeterPan]

But calling someone "dawg" DOESN'T make sense.  Even if you don't mean a literal dog, it's still a perjorative term.  (re the expression: she looked like a dog= she was UGLY)  So it's incomprehensible why it's acceptable to call someone a dawg, unless that is slang for their social group or area and applied to ALL people. Would that same boy greet one person with "dawg" and the next with "sheep" and have them be equally acceptable and non-demeaning?

 

Are there unwritten rules of acceptable teasing?  If it's actually a linguistic pattern, it should have rules.

[PeterPan]

Oh wow, Lecka, THAT is a book we all need!  :D

[FairProspects]

But calling someone "dawg" DOESN'T make sense.  Even if you don't mean a literal dog, it's still a perjorative term.  (re the expression: she looked like a dog= she was UGLY)  So it's incomprehensible why it's acceptable to call someone a dawg, unless that is slang for their social group or area and applied to ALL people. Would that same boy greet one person with "dawg" and the next with "sheep" and have them be equally acceptable and non-demeaning?

 

Are there unwritten rules of acceptable teasing?  If it's actually a linguistic pattern, it should have rules.

 

Yes, there are unwritten rules of acceptable teasing. What's up, Dawg? is a friendly expression asking what's happening and how are you. It is actually a greeting expressing that you like someone. It is related to a popular song, but yes, it is a good thing and a sign of friendship. :)

[Jennifer-72]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, but building on Lecka's thoughts. It is important to ensure that your husband is helping him navigate some of this boys socialization stuff (I don't mean to imply that he isn't already). I remember hearing Brenda Myles Smith speak and talking about how often since the large majority of therapists are women that we are teaching these boys social skill rules from a girls/women's perspective and that just doesn't apply to how these young boys relate to each other.

[PeterPan]

Yes, there are unwritten rules of acceptable teasing. What's up, Dawg? is a friendly expression asking what's happening and how are you. It is actually a greeting expressing that you like someone. It is related to a popular song, but yes, it is a good thing and a sign of friendship. :)

Wow, so if someone didn't know that song, they could TOTALLY misinterpret it!   :glare: 

[MomatHWTK]

FTR, I have no problem with alternate methods of apporaching an issue. I do have a problem with posts that start with 'I can't believe so many parents do X because I don't.'   It implies that the parent who is choosing a different method is doing so to the detriment of their child's development.  Say what you do, don't critique what I do unless you know my situation.     

[PeterPan]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, but building on Lecka's thoughts. It is important to ensure that your husband is helping him navigate some of this boys socialization stuff (I don't mean to imply that he isn't already). I remember hearing Brenda Myles Smith speak and talking about how often since the large majority of therapists are women that we are teaching these boys social skill rules from a girls/women's perspective and that just doesn't apply to how these young boys relate to each other.

What would he do differently?

[Lecka]

Yeah, sometimes you can have a goal, not just to understand it is teasing, but also be able to tease yourself, b/c it can be a sign of friendship.  I think maybe especially for boys and for some ages of boys -- it can be friendly and something that shows they are friendly.  If you don't take part, maybe you come across in a way you don't like.  

 

And that is fine ----- but if it happens to be something where you can practice it and learn it, and then be able to do this thing that will come across as friendly, then I think it is very fair to teach it to kids, so they can have that way to show group belonging.

 

And then if they don't want to, that is fine, too.  But maybe they would want to someday.  

[PeterPan]

FTR, I have no problem with alternate methods of apporaching an issue. I do have a problem with posts that start with 'I can't believe so many parents do X because I don't.'   It implies that the parent who is choosing a different method is doing so to the detriment of their child's development.  Say what you do, don't critique what I do unless you know my situation.     

Just to sort of stick my nose in here, I'll just say, in the defense of people that feel that way, that I think sometimes it's coming from the middle of their own grief and realizations (about where they are, about how different people are, etc.) and not really about intending to offend.  Sorta like thinking out loud.  Which we all oops on.

 

And I want to go back to my point, that if you're feeling on the fringe, it is NOT necessary to be homogenous and identical on this board.  Sometimes with our dc situations we end up feeling like we're the fringe of the fringe.

 

Kumbayah and get along and overlook and all that.

[PeterPan]

My son has a shirt that shows a hamburger walking up to a hot dog and a dialog balloon that says "What's up, dog?"

 

He gets comments from amused people all the time. :D

Oh that's funny!  So was it spurred by the song?

[MomatHWTK]

Wow, so if someone didn't know that song, they could TOTALLY misinterpret it!   :glare: 

 

Yes, exactly!  There are tons of unwritten rules.  Additionally, nearly all interacations depend on inflection and facial expression to fully interpret.  That is why I referenced the one on one instruction with a first exposure.  The books, cartoons, individual explanation are all necessary in order for the ASD child to understand what is happening.  And, many of these kids react with anger if they feel that someone is tricking them or making fun at their expense.  So, you have one child calling the other "dawg" in a good, positive "hey I like you" way and then the other child gets angry.  A parent nearby to witness can pull their ASD child aside and say, "Hon, he is being friendly."  You instruct on the new "rule" and the child incorporates it.  But without that one on one, or detailed pre-briefing, your child could go through several of these little interactions in one group activity and by the end be pretty angry at everyone. 

 

A supervising adult should be made aware of the issue so that they can recognize that first sign of anger and intervene to smooth things over.  Yes, the ASD child responds "incorrectly" they need help to understand what is happening. 

 

I can teach my child to walk away (with lots of effort and repeat instruction) but he would still walk away thinking the other kids were jerks.  And, as OP mentioned, if I teach him to just go with it no matter what, he could very easily be abused or become involved in something illegal or dangerous.  The normal "follow your instincts" instructions just don't apply for all kids. 

[Lecka]

Please don't think less of me..... but we have taught my son to say "no, you x."  Or, "no, you're x."   It works a lot for sibling conversations.  My daughter loves to tease, but I know she is good-natured and so I don't have to worry.  And if she is not, I am right there and I can handle it.  

 

If my daughter says "you're a big potato-head," then my son can say "no, you're a big potato-head."  It is pretty simple as a thing to say back.  

 

They are 6 and like to say things like this sometimes.  

 

Or even "you're slow."  "No, you're slow."  This can be good-natured, too.  (If they are very even -- this can be good-natured.  If one is very far behind the other, then it is not nice to say.... my daughter gets this, though, and she is always the one to start it right now.)  

 

I am happy to see my son take part.  

 

But it is different b/c I am there and if I see it become not-nice I can put a stop to it.  

 

My son thinks it is really, really funny, though.

 

We also have a bit of a strategy where if he has funny things to say, it can be a replacement behavior for doing things like burping, b/c he has figured out he can burp to get attention and be funny, but I really do not like the burping.  

[FairProspects]

FTR, I have no problem with alternate methods of apporaching an issue. I do have a problem with posts that start with 'I can't believe so many parents do X because I don't.'   It implies that the parent who is choosing a different method is doing so to the detriment of their child's development.  Say what you do, don't critique what I do unless you know my situation.     

 

Not my intention. I did not mean to presume to know your situation and it is none of my business how you parent. Again, my apologies. I clearly did not express my own emotion or thoughts well and I'm sorry it caused offense.

[MomatHWTK]

Understood.  FP, since you mentioned that your child does has SPD perhaps you could explain how that plays out in the social setting.  I know for ASD it is more of a locked in right/wrong situation where explicit instruction is needed to explain nuances. 

[FairProspects]

Nm. I  appreciate the acknowledgement and sincere question but I think I'd rather keep my family out of it at this point in order to keep the focus on OP's questions & situation.  

[Storygirl]

While I was working with my kids on math, you guys were working on this problem for me! How awesome! I haven't read all the replies yet, but I'm working my way through them. I just didn't want you to think I had posted a question and then disappeared.

 

FairProspects, I didn't get to read your posts before you deleted them. I'm sorry about that.

[imagine.more]

But calling someone "dawg" DOESN'T make sense.  Even if you don't mean a literal dog, it's still a perjorative term.  (re the expression: she looked like a dog= she was UGLY)  So it's incomprehensible why it's acceptable to call someone a dawg, unless that is slang for their social group or area and applied to ALL people. Would that same boy greet one person with "dawg" and the next with "sheep" and have them be equally acceptable and non-demeaning?

 

Are there unwritten rules of acceptable teasing?  If it's actually a linguistic pattern, it should have rules.

 

Dawg is a totally common thing to call people as an affectionate like man-friend term. As someone said 'What's up, dawg?" is especially common but it's been used in other contexts too and it's never meant negatively, always a positive "you're cool, you're my buddy" kind of way. Dawg has been around since I was a teenager, lol! 

 

There are even more new words to keep track of now, it's overwhelming! Like "fleek", I don't get that one and it comes from an obscure source too but just somehow got into the normal slang for teens at the moment. My DD13's older sister says all sorts of crazy stuff I have to look up, lol!

 

Anyway, in the circumstance of this post I'd say the boys' teasing could be crossing the line into not-nice depending on their tone. You'd need to see/hear it in person. My guess is that since they say it to everyone that it really is friendly teasing and then he took it wrong and then they didn't know how to take his reaction so they thought it was funny and now kinda antagonize him. So while it was okay it may have crossed a line into not okay.

 

I think the best you can do is to be present and aware, try to witness some of the teasing first-hand if possible so you can help your DS realize if it's mean or friendly teasing. Then you can cater your teaching to that observation. If it seems to be mean-spirited encourage him to stand up for himself by either a) walking away or b) letting them know in socially acceptable ways that he doesn't like it. To say in a whiny voice "I don't like that, stop!!!" would not be best. But if he could play it off a bit, act cool, and say "Man, that's lame" or "Okay, that's enough." and roll his eyes and walk away that would get the message across without him sounding like he's complaining. Even better if he could say "Man, that's lame, let's get back to practicing" or "I need to go ask the coach something" as a way to direct everyone back to practicing or give him an excuse to walk away. 

 

If it is friendly teasing I think Lecka has some good ideas with maybe teaching him how to tease back. He might not be into teasing but then at least he can choose whether to tease back or not play along. I know I'm not one to tease much myself and so I wouldn't blame him for not playing along but it should be because he chose not to, not because he doesn't know how or took it offensively when it wasn't meant to be. Tween boys can be a lot more into good-natured teasing than girls, especially in sports, so it may just need to be a social skill he has to learn. 

 

And yeah, I think I would request that the coach try to keep an eye on it more closely and really help you figure out for real if it's good-natured or not. Or he can choose to keep the boys busier so there's less time for goofing off. Either way he should be supporting a healthy team atmosphere and be a bit more accommodating. 

[Minerva]

What would he do differently?

 

When I see my own husband and his male friends, their banter is so different than the banter with my girlfriends. They tease a lot. To me it almost sounds mean, but to them it is affectionate. I know this because my dh has been friends with these same men for thirty years and they really love each other. There are practical jokes and a bit of raunchiness. Somehow they know the limits of this banter and tread just on the edge of disrespectful without ever actually being mean.  FWIW these are grown, responsible, fathers and husbands. They are really loving and supportive of each other, but this other thing is an important part of their relationship. 

 

I have no idea how normal this is in other men's relationships, and I have no idea how to teach it, but it's worth mentioning.

[FairProspects]

When I see my own husband and his male friends, their banter is so different than the banter with my girlfriends. They tease a lot. To me it almost sounds mean, but to them it is affectionate. I know this because my dh has been friends with these same men for thirty years and they really love each other. There are practical jokes and a bit of raunchiness. Somehow they know the limits of this banter and tread just on the edge of disrespectful without ever actually being mean.  FWIW these are grown, responsible, fathers and husbands. They are really loving and supportive of each other, but this other thing is an important part of their relationship. 

 

I have no idea how normal this is in other men's relationships, and I have no idea how to teach it, but it's worth mentioning.

 

Yes, this. I would call it "ribbing". It is like they are competing with each other verbally or something. And from having taught jr. high boys, I can tell you they are typically trying to imitate this behavior and most of them are failing miserably because they don't know where that line of disrespect or meanness is yet and they frequently cross it and upset someone when that was never their intention. I'm not totally sure how they learn those boundaries since I didn't come of age as a dude, but I suspect it would be from older males.

[Storygirl]

I'm dealing with this for the first time as mom of a 9 year old, so I'll just share my observations and hope they help.  

 

DS had to deal with antagonizing behavior in a team sport for the first time this year, and I wish I'd spent less time focused on the other child's motives.  What mattered, and I now see in hindsight, is that the activity failed to meet the goals for which I had DS participating in it--fun confidence building.  I guess if every activity DS participated in went like this, it would be harder.  But it was specific to this team, and one kid.  So, we let it go and joined a new team.    

 

Now here's the interesting part.  The new team has some challenging kids, boys and girls DS's age.  But the coach is full-on engaged 100 percent of the time.  Those kids get 2 water breaks, but the coach puts them through their activities and is constantly encouraging, coming alongside.    

 

Not-a-single-problem.  All. Season.  

 

So, I say the "problem" is the coach.  And based on the conversation you shared, I'd be fully confident that things are not going to get better.  There are some kids who do just fine with laid back teachers/coaches.  And then, there are kids (like The Antagonizer) who need a fully engaged coach to keep his/her energies focused, and that makes the whole class breathe a sigh of relief.  Your kiddo, if he's like mine, needs a sigh of relief... I wish I'd seen that earlier.  

 

Hugs,

Stella

 

DS's coaches at his old gym ran a very structured program. It was a much larger program, but the boys were closely supervised at all times, and there were always two to three coaches at each practice, so if they broke into groups, an adult was still supervising. The head coach was funny but strict, which was a good combo for DS. Once there was an issue at break time where some of the boys were tossing shoes around the locker room and shoes got put into the toilet. So the boys lost their break time. Forever. That coach wouldn't put up with nonsense, but he was great with the boys and let them have appropriate and structured fun.

 

I agree that the real problem might be that we have the wrong coach/team culture now. We'll ponder that.

 

The decision I've made is that if I can't be there and the adult in charge isn't aware enough to handle my child's needs, then it isn't the right place for my child.  I have places my child refuses to go now because of mishandled teasing in the past.  :(  You can help your child work out what is OK and what isn't by direct instruction but that requires ongoing and intensive effort on your part.  I have found that new and unexpected situations come up almost constantly when we are out in the world and they require my one on one instruction for the first exposure. 

 

There are books and other guides out there specifically written for SN kids that might help you.  I'd look into those to help your DS also.  Sorry I don't have a better answer.  The tween/teen years are rough for social interaction. 

 

This is a good place to draw the line. I'm trying to work out whether the coach will be responsive to DS's need for more support now that I've talked about it with him. I'm a little skeptical that the coach will change the way he does things, but maybe we will be surprised -- maybe reminding him of DS's disability will prompt him to be more attentive to what is going on.

 

I do think that we can't expect to change the culture of the gym or the coach's general mindset. If things don't improve, we'll have to think about pulling DS out.

 

 

I tend to agree, the problem is the coach for not instilling and enforcing team conduct rules. 

 

DS was in a karate class.  We put him in after his disastrous 2nd grade year with a belittling teacher.  He was emotionally fragile.  The younger coach handled the newbies.  He was awesome.  He was very careful to discuss proper conduct, how to treat the other kids in the class and what was expected of each child every day, not just in class.  The rules of conduct were written on the board and reviewed often.  He was encouraging, supportive, and helped the kids work through their differences very proactively.  DS thrived and made friends.  

 

Then the younger man left, along with another outstanding coach.  The one that was left is not an evil man.  He just has no interest in working with kids on social skills and cares not one whit if they are teasing or arguing or whatever as long as the class keeps moving forward.  DS started coming home depressed, sometimes crying, and once in a while with bruises.  One day he got the wind knocked completely out of him and his stomach hurt for days.  Why?  A couple of older boys were very rough and liked to pick on the littler kids.  The coach thought it would "toughen them up" so he did little to intervene.  One of those boys was actually a friend of DSs from before the class.  He was the one who sucker punched him in the gut.  It really hurt physically but emotionally it was devastating.  Talking to the coach ended up being a complete waste of time.  We pulled DS out.

 

 

ETA:  I just read FPs response.  I do agree that we need to help our kids handle these situations on their own.   Totally get that.  We can't always be there.  

 

But sometimes kids are not yet ready for that and the emotional damage can last a lifetime if they aren't ready, don't have the coping skills, but are left to fend for themselves.  That became very obvious to me when I read that thread on bullying last year.  All the people that responded with heartbreaking bullying and harsh teasing stories that have haunted them for a life time.  They needed help that they did not get.  I would not want that for my child.

 

OneStep, this is a horrible story! I'm sorry your son went through that. It does illustrate how the coach can make a huge difference.

[Storygirl]

I do not know, other than to say this sounds like a problem area that needs to be addressed with your son.  

 

Maybe it could help to practice at home, how he could respond.  Maybe he could learn some jokes to tell, too.  

 

I have read things that say teasing is a way that people show they are friends, and that they have an informal relationship with each other.  

 

Maybe that is the function of this teasing.

 

Maybe they are really being mean but are doing it behind the coach's back.  

 

I don't know.  

 

But if people say things that are innocuous and he responds in a hostile way, that is not a good thing for him.  I think it is possible that this is what is happening.  I have heard this mentioned at my autism support group, but I do not really know what they recommended.  I think they would say to write a social story, model conversations, and do social post-mortems where you try to re-play what has happened and see if you understood other people.  Also you can watch movies or videos and point out when there is friendly teasing.  

 

It is all stuff that is not for my son's age level right now, so I really don't know about it.  But I have heard it brought up, so I think there are autism-related resources for it out there.  

 

But I think an important thing to focus on is "what can my son say/do instead of what he is doing right now."  What change can he make.  Either he can go along with teasing and tease back.  Or, he can say he doesn't like it, but in a different way that does not come across as hostile or super-defensive.  Either one might be good.   

 

You hit on one of my concerns here. I think it is entirely possible that the teasing that is going on at the gym is just normal guy stuff. DH was an athlete, and he said that razzing your friends and teammates is extremely common and doesn't necessarily mean they are being malicious. I'm wondering if the issue is with the other boys, or if the issue is with DS coming across as hostile. DS is not a withering wallflower type. There have been a couple of other incidents, according to the coach, where DS has acted out with an inappropriate or surprising level of anger to something that is really kind of small.

 

I do think that DS needs to be able to function in a group of boys who are joshing around with each other, because he will have this experience throughout his childhood and adolescence. That's why I wanted to get a sense of whether DS was being targeted specifically or not. If he can work his way through this and figure out how to be one of the guys, I think it would be good for him. If he is actually being bullied, it would be bad for him to stay in that situation. It's hard to tell the difference in this case.

 

I like the idea of him telling them some jokes. DS would like that. We did talk with him about some ways that he could respond, but we could do more role-playing. I think it could help.

 

Lecka, you're always so awesome at this stuff!  I didn't know you were allowed to tease back, hmm.  That would be really practical advice she could try.  On the saying you don't like it approach, what are some ways he can do that without seeming sort of wimpy or sissy-ish?  I mean, that could turn REALLY the wrong way, really fast.  It seems like a good idea, but it would be the thing to figure out how.

 

(I'm asking because I'm saving up ideas for my ds when this hits in a few years, oy.)

 

About teasing back. That is what DH initially told DS to do. But I was less certain. DS tends to be very sharp and sometimes hurtful with his humor, because he says whatever is funny to him without considering whether it is funny to the recipient. I'm not sure we want to encourage him to just dig back at them -- if we teach him that that is okay to do with his teammates but we don't want him to do it with his siblings, it could be sending a mixed message. And I would be afraid that DS could one day cross the line from teasing to bullying without really meaning to. Because he doesn't sense how the things he says come across to others.

 

I do think if he were NT, I would agree more with the idea of teasing back. I think coming up with some jokes that are funny but not making-fun-of-others might be a middle of the line approach.

[Storygirl]

Story, does your ds accept teasing within your own home?  I think teasing may be common in socially typical families.  Is it something that didn't go well so you have sort of rearranged even healthy, normal levels, giving him less exposure and opportunities to deal with it?  

 

We do have a lot of teasing here. Both good natured, silly teasing from DH and me and the more annoying and inappropriate kind from his siblings (mostly his brother, who is less than a year younger). In fact, DS11 does a huge amount of teasing himself, and we are often having to help him see when he is being mean instead of funny. I just asked him today about a certain thing that he likes to say that annoys his brother. "Do you say that to be mean to your brother, or do you say it because it is funny to you?" I asked. He said that he says things that are funny to him. He doesn't consider whether they are funny to others. And if it makes them mad, he will still do it again.

 

So he can be an inappropriate teaser himself. He always has been. He's funny but he also takes things too far.

 

Gotta run out to get DD13. I'll read the rest of the responses later.

[MomatHWTK]

I think the older the child, the more important it is to teach that an angry response is never acceptable.  You can be angry and walk away, but to respond with hostility in the moment can lead to a physical altercation and the consequences for a teen can be significant.  That doesn't mean that you can get results overnight, but it is important to work toward an end goal of teaching the child to de escalate. Maybe some of the resources will give you an idea: https://www.google.com/search?q=anger+scale+pdf&espv=2&biw=1400&bih=961&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cImdVYqwFYWmyQT_prCwBg&ved=0CCoQsAQ

 

In a social setting, at the very least I would want the supervising adult to alert me to any reactions that seemed excessive so I would know what to work on at home. 

[Storygirl]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, but building on Lecka's thoughts. It is important to ensure that your husband is helping him navigate some of this boys socialization stuff (I don't mean to imply that he isn't already). I remember hearing Brenda Myles Smith speak and talking about how often since the large majority of therapists are women that we are teaching these boys social skill rules from a girls/women's perspective and that just doesn't apply to how these young boys relate to each other.

 

I think this is a good point. DH definitely has the guy's point of view, and I think it's really important that DS can learn that from him. I am personally kind of a prim and proper girlish person; even though I grew up with a very boyish boundary-pushing brother and so have been around boys all my life, I still find the goofy guy stuff to be annoying sometimes. My own sons are definitely the goofy type, so I get that. But I'm also always trying to steer them towards acting more mature and appropriate. I think it's probably good for DS and his brother just to be able to let loose with the boys sometimes. If the culture of the gym is kind of a freer boy culture, I think that could be okay, maybe. I just think there needs to be someone keeping it in check (this would be the coach again).

 

Yeah, sometimes you can have a goal, not just to understand it is teasing, but also be able to tease yourself, b/c it can be a sign of friendship.  I think maybe especially for boys and for some ages of boys -- it can be friendly and something that shows they are friendly.  If you don't take part, maybe you come across in a way you don't like.  

 

And that is fine ----- but if it happens to be something where you can practice it and learn it, and then be able to do this thing that will come across as friendly, then I think it is very fair to teach it to kids, so they can have that way to show group belonging.

 

And then if they don't want to, that is fine, too.  But maybe they would want to someday.  

 

I think it is entirely possible that the boys are just being friendly and that DS is taking it the wrong way. I think it is possible that DS is the one who is acting inappropriately for the situation and that it will affect how things go from now on. If the other guys are just being silly and he gets angry, I can see that a couple of things could happen.

ONE -- they might decide he is not really one of them and start leaving him out.

TWO -- they might see a weakness and decide to poke at it and be mean (even if things didn't start out that way), turning what started out innocently enough into a true bullying situation

THREE-- they can decide to overlook his odd responses and just accept him as he is.

         This is totally unlikely to happen unless the coach intervenes, tells them he has a disability, and teaches them appropriate     

         ways to respond. Even then I would consider this level of maturity highly unlikely.

Which leaves two poor end results that I can envision.

 

I also think it's unlikely that the coach is going to enter into things in this kind of proactive way. When we talked, he was definitely focused in on the ways that DS is not assimilating instead of on what he himself could do differently as the leader. (Though he was nice about it),

 

If the boys are just doing friendly boy teasing and DS can learn to understand it, things might have a chance to improve in a way that will allow him to succeed at this gym, which would be a big win. Gymnastics is good for him on many levels, and I don't want him to have to give it up if we can find a way to improve things.

 

My son has a shirt that shows a hamburger walking up to a hot dog and a dialog balloon that says "What's up, dog?"

 

He gets comments from amused people all the time. :D

 

DS would LOVE this!

Please don't think less of me..... but we have taught my son to say "no, you x."  Or, "no, you're x."   It works a lot for sibling conversations.  My daughter loves to tease, but I know she is good-natured and so I don't have to worry.  And if she is not, I am right there and I can handle it.  

 

If my daughter says "you're a big potato-head," then my son can say "no, you're a big potato-head."  It is pretty simple as a thing to say back.  

 

They are 6 and like to say things like this sometimes.  

 

Or even "you're slow."  "No, you're slow."  This can be good-natured, too.  (If they are very even -- this can be good-natured.  If one is very far behind the other, then it is not nice to say.... my daughter gets this, though, and she is always the one to start it right now.)  

 

I am happy to see my son take part.  

 

But it is different b/c I am there and if I see it become not-nice I can put a stop to it.  

 

My son thinks it is really, really funny, though.

 

We also have a bit of a strategy where if he has funny things to say, it can be a replacement behavior for doing things like burping, b/c he has figured out he can burp to get attention and be funny, but I really do not like the burping.  

 

I like this. If someone can laugh instead of getting mad at playful insults, I think it can go a long way toward both diffusing tension and establishing cameraderie.

[Storygirl]

 

 

Anyway, in the circumstance of this post I'd say the boys' teasing could be crossing the line into not-nice depending on their tone. You'd need to see/hear it in person. My guess is that since they say it to everyone that it really is friendly teasing and then he took it wrong and then they didn't know how to take his reaction so they thought it was funny and now kinda antagonize him. So while it was okay it may have crossed a line into not okay.

 

I think the best you can do is to be present and aware, try to witness some of the teasing first-hand if possible so you can help your DS realize if it's mean or friendly teasing. Then you can cater your teaching to that observation. If it seems to be mean-spirited encourage him to stand up for himself by either a) walking away or b) letting them know in socially acceptable ways that he doesn't like it. To say in a whiny voice "I don't like that, stop!!!" would not be best. But if he could play it off a bit, act cool, and say "Man, that's lame" or "Okay, that's enough." and roll his eyes and walk away that would get the message across without him sounding like he's complaining. Even better if he could say "Man, that's lame, let's get back to practicing" or "I need to go ask the coach something" as a way to direct everyone back to practicing or give him an excuse to walk away. 

 

If it is friendly teasing I think Lecka has some good ideas with maybe teaching him how to tease back. He might not be into teasing but then at least he can choose whether to tease back or not play along. I know I'm not one to tease much myself and so I wouldn't blame him for not playing along but it should be because he chose not to, not because he doesn't know how or took it offensively when it wasn't meant to be. Tween boys can be a lot more into good-natured teasing than girls, especially in sports, so it may just need to be a social skill he has to learn. 

 

And yeah, I think I would request that the coach try to keep an eye on it more closely and really help you figure out for real if it's good-natured or not. Or he can choose to keep the boys busier so there's less time for goofing off. Either way he should be supporting a healthy team atmosphere and be a bit more accommodating. 

 

Thank you. I wish I could witness these exchanges myself. In this particular gym, the waiting room for the parents is actually a separate room from the gym, with a glass wall between, so we can't hear what is said. The fact that the coach offered to talk to specific boys if necessary shows that he wants to be helpful. I'm not sure that he is open to changing his coaching style, though, which is what I think would really make a difference. Unless he is willing to run a tighter ship and supervise more, I think a conversation with one particular boy is only going to go so far.

 

I don't think he's a bad coach, by the way. I am, though, suspecting that his coaching style may not be the best fit for DS. If we have to pull DS out, it would really be unfortunate. DS also has ADHD and dyspraxia, and gymnastics has been excellent for him.

 

I think the older the child, the more important it is to teach that an angry response is never acceptable.  You can be angry and walk away, but to respond with hostility in the moment can lead to a physical altercation and the consequences for a teen can be significant.  That doesn't mean that you can get results overnight, but it is important to work toward an end goal of teaching the child to de escalate. Maybe some of the resources will give you an idea: https://www.google.com/search?q=anger+scale+pdf&espv=2&biw=1400&bih=961&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cImdVYqwFYWmyQT_prCwBg&ved=0CCoQsAQ

 

In a social setting, at the very least I would want the supervising adult to alert me to any reactions that seemed excessive so I would know what to work on at home. 

 

Thanks for this. Anger has always been a problem for DS, and your link has some things that will be helpful to use with him.

 

I did tell the coach to let me know if something else happens. Evidently there have been a few angry incidents with DS at practice, but the coach did not bring them up until I initiated a conversation with him. I'm probably just going to have to keep asking the coach how things are going to make sure that he keeps me informed.

[PeterPan]

Story, it seems to me this is another good reason to get that IEP done and get that scholarship applied for.  This is stuff the social skills intervention could help you with.  It's PRECISELY what it could help you with.  In fact, the full extent and ugliness of what you've got going on here (angry outburst responses, etc.) needs to go into that documentation as you're making the case for getting social into the IEP...

[ssavings]

When I see my own husband and his male friends, their banter is so different than the banter with my girlfriends. They tease a lot. To me it almost sounds mean, but to them it is affectionate. I know this because my dh has been friends with these same men for thirty years and they really love each other. There are practical jokes and a bit of raunchiness. Somehow they know the limits of this banter and tread just on the edge of disrespectful without ever actually being mean.  FWIW these are grown, responsible, fathers and husbands. They are really loving and supportive of each other, but this other thing is an important part of their relationship. 

 

I have no idea how normal this is in other men's relationships, and I have no idea how to teach it, but it's worth mentioning.

 

Very, very much yes. My DH and his friends are the same way. 

[texasmama]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, but building on Lecka's thoughts. It is important to ensure that your husband is helping him navigate some of this boys socialization stuff (I don't mean to imply that he isn't already). I remember hearing Brenda Myles Smith speak and talking about how often since the large majority of therapists are women that we are teaching these boys social skill rules from a girls/women's perspective and that just doesn't apply to how these young boys relate to each other.

I really agree with this. And I'm a female therapist!

 

On my phone but hope to reply tomorrow on my

Laptop. Yes, I have experience with my ASD son and this.

[Terabith]

Why did you move him to this gym from the other one?  Is there a reason he can't go back to the first one?  I think giving up gymnastics because of this is a little drastic. 

[Storygirl]

We moved. We're now more than two hours away from our other gym. If we decide that this is not an appropriate environment for him, it may not be possible to find another gym with a boys' team that is close enough to our new home and also has the culture he needs. Boys' gymnastics teams are much less common than girls', and many gyms do not have a boys' program. I need to look around to see what else is available in a reasonable distance. We used to have to drive about forty minutes to get him to his old gym, and that distance was a problem.

 

I'm not saying that he would have to give up gymnastics for sure. But it's a real possibility. He had a hard time adjusting to one new gym. Moving to another might push him over into wanting to quit. New things are hard for him.

 

 

[Storygirl]

Here is today's event. The main problem boy came into the gym and told DS that he was not going to talk to him today. Then when they were stretching, he told the other boys not to talk to DS, either. And they didn't. DS says that when he tried to talk to them throughout the morning that they ignored him. He said the coach did not notice.

 

I will say that it is hard to get information like this out of DS. He says things in kind of an offhand way and then doesn't want to elaborate. He answered the questions that I asked him, but I don't know if I have the whole story.

 

It's looking to me like DS is a specific target now.

[OneStepAtATime]

Talk to the coach but obviously that may not help. This sounds like it will only get worse not better since no adult is helping to guide them in the moment (and only the coach is in a position to do that but appears oblivious or just doesn't feel that is his job). Once a negative spiral of bullying starts it can be really hard for kids to change the dynamic without outside guidance. Hugs

[Storygirl]

I suggested that DH talk to the coach this time, so that he gets to hear from both of us and doesn't think that I'm just an overly concerned mom. He's going to make a request for the coach to call him.

[OneStepAtATime]

I suggested that DH talk to the coach this time, so that he gets to hear from both of us and doesn't think that I'm just an overly concerned mom. He's going to make a request for the coach to call him.

Sounds good.  

[Lecka]

I would talk to the coach and the coach's boss.  

 

If the coach's boss considers this part of the mission of the gym -- then I think the coach needs to do this as part of his job.  

 

I would talk to them as nicely as possible.

 

I would try to go in with specific suggestions and also to be neutral and also like you want your son to improve, also. 

 

Share information you have.  

 

Do you know what specific suggestions are?  Do you want the coach to say X?  If you know what response you think will be effective, whether it is to say something to all the kids, say something to prompt your son, give your son a special privilege of helping with something so that he will seem like someone the coach thinks is very responsible, give your son a job that serves as a cooling-off break for him (this is a common school strategy -- sending kids on a fake errand), or whatever you think.  

 

The more specific the better.  

 

You can be open to them, too, and see what they say about your concerns.  

 

But do act fast, b/c if it doesn't improve pretty quick, it is going to get harder and harder for it to be possible to turn it around.  

 

But yeah, I would totally go to the director/owner and ask what their policy or their mission statement is with regards to this situation.  I would not just talk to the coach.  You have already talked to the coach, now move up the chain, and see where it gets you.  If it doesn't get you anywhere -- then I am sorry.  Your son may need the support and if he doesn't get it, it may not work out.  BUT I really think if you pull him before it really gets bad, then he could come back after a break ---- it does NOT have to mean the end of gymnastics.  It can mean a break and he comes back for next Spring, with some new skills under his belt and hopefully with a plan with the coach.  There are a lot of ideas that might be helpful and simple for them to implement, maybe.   

 

  

[Lecka]

Separately -- why not make an in-person appointment with the director if a phone call between your husband and the coach is not effective?  It is where I would go.  But I agree -- it is definitely worth starting with a husband phone call!  That is a much better idea and much better place to start.  

 

I think you are going to need specific suggestions for the coach, though.  B/c if it is just vague, the coach may not have tools in his tool box to finesse the situation.

 

This is the kind of thing where teachers go to trainings and that is how they get the tools in their tool box.  Or the teachers read a book.  Or, the teachers go to an IEP meeting and the resource room teacher and the school psychologist give the teachers a lot of advice and concrete ideas.  

 

That is how teachers get good ideas and practical suggestions.  

 

They don't just magically know, and sometimes their usual strategies are not sufficient for this kind of thing.  Usually they are not sufficient.  Usually they are getting help from somebody.  So I think you need to provide that help if possible, if you are aware of anything that might be helpful.  

 

I think it helps when people know you are addressing things at home, too, but at the same time, your child still needs support.