Question about dyslexia vs. vision issue

[TheAttachedMama]

I have an 8.5 year old son who has a lot of problems with reading.  

 

I believe he needs some testing or therapy.   We live in a TERRIBLE school district, and I don't feel like I am going to get much free help from them.   So we have been saving money so that we can pay for a private evaluation.  

 

I am trying to determine what my money would be best spent on.   What testing I should get done first:  vision testing or an official dyslexia evaluation?  Also, if you were me, would you still explore the public school system testing?

 

Also, lets say we get an official dyslexia evaluation.   What will that give me besides a name to call the problems I am seeing?    I understand that they might tell me what specific areas my son has weaknesses in so that I can target those areas.   However, I sort of feel like I know where his weaknesses are....I'm just not sure how to help those specific areas.  For example, I already know that he has strong receptive and expressive language skills, and a strong working memory.  However, he has a weakness when it comes to visual processing and focusing on tasks for short periods of time.  (Just as an example.)  

 

As homeschoolers, don't you feel pretty keyed in to what your child can do well and what they struggle with?   So what would dyslexia testing give me that I don't already know?   I want to find help for him, not necessarily just have a name.

 

SECONDLY......

 

I recently read this on the Barton webpage: 

"It should be extremely hard for that student to master their weekly spelling list from school, they probably cannot retain their spelling words from one week to the next, and their spelling should be pretty bad when they write sentences and stories.

Also, although that student can read, he is probably slow and inaccurate. And when he comes to a word he does not recognize, he cannot easily sound it out -- despite years of phonics instruction.

Those are classic warning signs of dyslexia."

 

What IF you have a child who can phonetically spell very well?    I have a son who uses All About Spelling with a high level of mastery.   He retains the words and spells them in his writing correctly most of the time.  He is actually a pretty good speller IMHO.   In fact, he can even sometimes spell words that he cannot read.   His spelling level is much higher than his reading level.  (This part confuses me.)  

 

And what IF you have a child who also has a fairly high level of 'word attack' skills as tested by nonsense words and word list?   (The child can sound out really long words.)     BUT, that same child struggles with simple CVC words?  

 

And what IF you have a child who has a high level of phonetic manipulation.   I give him all of the classic dyslexia tests online where they have you phonetically manipulate words in your head, and he passes. 

 

And what IF your son shows an advanced grasp of verbal language and writing....but just can't seem to input language through reading because of some problem.  

 

Signs I am seeing:

My son skips lot of short little words or reads them wrong (of, is, in, a).

 

He often skips the first word of a new line.

 

My son often can't tell the proper order of things.   He can't tell if a number is 35 or 53 for example in math sometimes.   Sometimes he writes "ni" for "in" and can't tell that he wrote it wrong.   And sometimes he has trouble distinguishing first from last when ordering things...almost like he gets after and before wrong in his head.

 

He is still having reversals in letters and numbers.  (Cursive handwriting has helped a lot, so we mostly see that with numbers now.  Example, writes a 7 backwards.)  

 

He often says the sounds that are in the word, but in the wrong order.   He will insert a t that is near the beginning of the word into the second syllable and leave it out of the first syllable. 

 

Guesses a lot....even (and especially) with short CVC words when reading:   "rip" read as "rope", "fat" read as "farther", etc.

---------------

 

So if you were seeing those types of things, what would you do if you were me?   Explore some more vision testing?   Or go to get dyslexia testing first thing?  

 

BTW---I already took him to a COVD doctor.   This was the same doctor who previously diagnosed him with convergence insufficiency several years ago.  (He completed vision therapy at that time.)  She tested him and said that he was converging just fine and didn't need any more therapy for that.   BUT she did not test his tracking ability.   (They have a visigraph machine there.) 

[wapiti]

My two cents:  to me, it sounds like the problem leans more vision than dyslexia, though ultimately it may take professional testing to tease apart.  It sounds not unlike my dd, who had a tracking problem, could not blend CVC as a first grader, but did not have phonemic issues and does not have dyslexia (after evals with ed psych, SLP and covd).  The tracking (and, oddly, the blending) was fixed with VT though she has a lingering accommodation dysfunction that has been difficult to keep at bay.  In addition, she did/does have a language processing glitch, reading comprehension issues borne out of trouble with visualizing while reading, making inferences, and remembering vocabulary; this glitch improved much with a little language processing therapy (akin to Visualizing and Verbalizing).

 

I'm a little confused as to why the COVD wouldn't have tested tracking with the visograph if it's there.  That is normally part of a developmental vision evaluation.  That part would point to looking for a different COVD who is more appropriately thorough.  (FWIW, our first COVD, who successfully treated dd's tracking many years ago, didn't have a visograph at that time AFAIK and I don't remember how he tested it.  He is old-school, low-tech but effective.  Our more recent COVD has a visograph and it is a standard part of every developmental vision evaluation - three of my kids have been tested there.)

[PeterPan]

If he has already done VT and the doc doesn't think he needs more, time for the psych eval. You may be assing the diagnosis incorrectly or incompletely. The things you're saying somewhat conflict so you need burned, standardized tools to sort it out, not just vague impressions and online tools. My guess is you'll learn a TON and be glad you did it. See if your COVD doc has a psych to recommend.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think I'd go the neuropsych route. Ours did do some visual screening as part of the testing protocol (and picked up the gaps in visual closure, visual memory, and visual perception that we already knew about from our COVD).

 

My kid fits most of the checklist for dyslexia but is a good speller *if* he spells orally with me scribing and him referencing my scribing and he also reads nonsense words well under certain conditions. He is not dyslexic, but has a weird combo of a lot of other stuff going on.

 

I think you need to tease everything apart and see what is going on and I think a neuropsych is a good place to start that.

 

I am beginning to think that VT is one of the easier things to fix in a typically complicated situation. To really understand and remediate though, you have to address every component of the problem.

[prairiewindmomma]

Also, for us, ds is complicated enough that the neuropsych only had a chunk of the picture. Our OT eval (with a homeschooling mom ) brought in a ton more info that finally helped me REALLY understand what my kid was experiencing.

 

Dude, I thought I knew, but he is a good compensator for a ton of stuff. He hit the wall, though, and now we are going back to build a ton of physical skills so that his brainpower can be freed up to work on academics.

[Junie]

How long ago was the vision therapy.  My dd went through this last year; she was released from therapy, but I was told that we may need to work on the exercises again if the muscles get lazy.

 

If the vt was some time ago, it may be time for a check-up.

[PeterPan]

Yes, my dd is low tone and her convergence gets crunchy in spite of VT.  She wears bifocal contacts to support it.  But that won't explain the reversals, etc.

 

I was on my phone earlier, so I wasn't elaborating.  Saying his working memory is good is really subjective.  You may not be testing it in a standardized way.  I thought my dd's was fine too, but it was low when tested by the VT and by the psych.  You're saying no problems with phonological processing and yet describing problems with phonological processing. You're not mentioning attention as an issue on your mind and yet you're describing attention issues.  

 

I'm just saying when you get someone who runs a CTOPP, some attention measures, an IQ, achievement, and an APD screening, you might come out with a different mix of labels than you're expecting.  You'll also have concrete info on where you need to intervene, so you're not spending time on something that isn't an issue.

 

An OT eval is only $80 around here.  Seriously.  Where a clinical psych eval will be around $800 and a neuropsych double to triple that.  So if you got the $80 OT eval with someone who's good with sensory, they might pick up some things you're not expecting.  For instance, there are retained primitive reflexes that can cause some of the vision symptoms you're having.  They can also create inattention and fidgety symptoms.  Since OT issues are SO common in the alphabet soup (dyslexia, ADHD, APD, ASD, etc.), it would not be $80 wasted, not with a good OT.   They'll test fine and gross motor and will sometimes run the BRIEF (an EF survey) while you're at it.  The sensory and retained reflexes are special, so look for someone who specializes in them and knows how to test.  

 

The reason for the evals is to get detailed, normed testing so you can decide where to target your interventions.  These results will be VERY targeted.  Like on my ds it's his vocabulary is great but his noticing of the bits of language is junk.  On pragmatics they were able to tell me which of the 4 areas to target.  So instead of working generally and wondering if you're working on the right thing, you'll finally have the data to let you target.

 

Some clinical psychs will do learning disabilities and some won't.  You want to hear them saying they'll run a test of phonological processing and a screening tool for APD.  Or take him to an audiologist and get that APD screening.  I took ds to a university for the audiologist, and I got everything run for $35.  Can't beat that!

 

 

[TheAttachedMama]

Also, for us, ds is complicated enough that the neuropsych only had a chunk of the picture. Our OT eval (with a homeschooling mom ) brought in a ton more info that finally helped me REALLY understand what my kid was experiencing.

 

Dude, I thought I knew, but he is a good compensator for a ton of stuff. He hit the wall, though, and now we are going back to build a ton of physical skills so that his brainpower can be freed up to work on academics.

My oldest son had an OT evaluation (at 4) and was diagnosed with sensory processing disorder.  That OT is the one who referred us for VT.  He had a vision screening and then went through VT (at 5).  

 

So, long story short, he went through several years of OT---but still has a reading problem.   Knowing that what is your advice?  Do I take him back to an OT, VT, neuropsych??

 

How long ago was the vision therapy.  My dd went through this last year; she was released from therapy, but I was told that we may need to work on the exercises again if the muscles get lazy.

 

If the vt was some time ago, it may be time for a check-up.

Good question, the VT was years ago before he was really reading.  

 

What I took him to recently was the year check up from the vision therapy doctor....that may be why they didn't run him through the visigraph.   I had to ask to schedule that because he is having so many problems still. 

 

 

Yes, my dd is low tone and her convergence gets crunchy in spite of VT.  She wears bifocal contacts to support it.  But that won't explain the reversals, etc.

 

I was on my phone earlier, so I wasn't elaborating.  Saying his working memory is good is really subjective.  You may not be testing it in a standardized way.  I thought my dd's was fine too, but it was low when tested by the VT and by the psych.  You're saying no problems with phonological processing and yet describing problems with phonological processing. You're not mentioning attention as an issue on your mind and yet you're describing attention issues.  

 

I'm just saying when you get someone who runs a CTOPP, some attention measures, an IQ, achievement, and an APD screening, you might come out with a different mix of labels than you're expecting.  You'll also have concrete info on where you need to intervene, so you're not spending time on something that isn't an issue.

 

An OT eval is only $80 around here.  Seriously.  Where a clinical psych eval will be around $800 and a neuropsych double to triple that.  So if you got the $80 OT eval with someone who's good with sensory, they might pick up some things you're not expecting.  For instance, there are retained primitive reflexes that can cause some of the vision symptoms you're having.  They can also create inattention and fidgety symptoms.  Since OT issues are SO common in the alphabet soup (dyslexia, ADHD, APD, ASD, etc.), it would not be $80 wasted, not with a good OT.   They'll test fine and gross motor and will sometimes run the BRIEF (an EF survey) while you're at it.  The sensory and retained reflexes are special, so look for someone who specializes in them and knows how to test.  

 

The reason for the evals is to get detailed, normed testing so you can decide where to target your interventions.  These results will be VERY targeted.  Like on my ds it's his vocabulary is great but his noticing of the bits of language is junk.  On pragmatics they were able to tell me which of the 4 areas to target.  So instead of working generally and wondering if you're working on the right thing, you'll finally have the data to let you target.

 

Some clinical psychs will do learning disabilities and some won't.  You want to hear them saying they'll run a test of phonological processing and a screening tool for APD.  Or take him to an audiologist and get that APD screening.  I took ds to a university for the audiologist, and I got everything run for $35.  Can't beat that!

I am happy to hear that you can get an OT evaluation for $80.   We paid several hundred dollars for ours.  And each OT visit was $120 a week!   It was crazy expensive.  

 

I also am not sure what you mean by saying that my description is  somewhat conflicting and based solely on vague online tools.   I am sorry I gave you that impression.   Maybe I am not being clear enough.    I say that his working memory is good because that is what the OT said after administering hours worth of standardized tests.   The VT said the same thing, and pretty much any educational expert I have had him around says the same thing.  They also tested his receptive and expression language skills and said that those were very good.

 

I am also not being conflicting when I say he doesn't have phonological issues.  

He does not have problems with phonological processing when he is working verbally or with word lists (or isolated words).   I can give him a word and have him replace letters with various sounds and he can tell me the new word would be.  He can identify and switch out sounds from the beginning, middle, and ending of words.  he can break words into syllables and do all of that stuff.  He can even reverse words.  If I tell him the word is "net" and ask him what the word would be spelled backwards he can figure it out.   BUT, despite that, something breaks down when the text is on a page.   (Not so much word lists, he can decode those very well.  It is text on a page in a paragraph or sentence.)  All of the sudden he starts mixing letters around and bringing sounds from the beginning of the word into the second syllable....stuff like that.  

 

I am also curious how it is possible that he can't read words that he spells / writes every day.   Again, something is breaking down.

 

I can just tell that something is not right, and I'm not sure where to start. 

 

ETA:   I forgot to say that he does have some "retained primitive reflexes" despite the years of OT.

[FairProspects]

Have you checked out stealth dyslexia? Phonological recognition is just one piece of phonological awareness. I see what OhE is getting at with the conflicting info. What you are describing falls under the umbrella of phonological issues, even if it doesn't appear that way to you. My ds can do everything you've listed too, and at age 7, in 1st grade, he scored grade 3.8 on phonological tests. He still has a dx of phonological processing issues and dyslexia and the older he gets the more obvious it becomes. He struggles to pronounce certain words if they don't follow regular phonological rules. Or he can't segment very large words properly ("demolecularized" being a recent example, and I'm not even sure if  that is a real word, lol). My humble opinion is that you want a neuropsychological eval. You might also check with the VT because I have heard cases where the VT doesn't "hold" over time and more work is necessary, but I agree with OhE that the vision issues alone don't explain the issues you describe. Fwiw, the OT is not qualified to diagnose or administer the official standardized working memory tests. They may have some alternate tools, but we are referring to a subsection on the WISC that can only be administered by a Phd or MD psychologist or neuropsychologist.

[TheAttachedMama]

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.   SO, I just did a google search trying to find information.  

 

One person I came across was listed as someone who could diagnose dyslexia on the International Dyslexia Association webpage, but she has "MS Ed, LPCC" after her name.   That is not a neuropsychologist, right?  That is just a therapist.  And her testing costs $1800.  

 

I found one Ph.D on the provider list in my area.   (Nancy Krasa, Ph.D)    Is that who I need to contact? 

 

And lets just say that testing does cost $1800, and I now have a list of names of the things that he "has".   What then?  How do I get him help?  I then have to take him to some tutoring places or therapy places after that cost.  

 

  

[prairiewindmomma]

I totally have thought of traveling to where OhE lives so we can screen at her good prices. We just got our bill for our OT eval. It was just under $500.  We are going to pay cash ($100/session) because her cash rate is better than our insurance coverage after her billing rate (We'd owe $135 for a $160/hr billed session.)  Neuropsych ran about $1800. (Ours was a bit more but we did some extra consults.)  I get it. Money is tight.  We are spending a crap-ton on remediation right now because we think this is his best shot at functioning well.

 

I would go to the neuropsych and here is why.  You already know there were past vision issues. You already know there are/were OT issues.  Sensory stuff can affect schooling, but hopefully you came out of OT with some tools to work on helping with that.  What you don't know is all of the edupsych stuff. And a neuropsych can help you sort out working memory, processing speed, etc. We saved up for three years to pay for a neuropsych.  It was the best we could do.  I am so glad we did it.

[FairProspects]

It often does cost $$$. The figure you listed would be a floor in our area and not even close to a ceiling for this kind of testing.

 

What does it get you?

 

1. Paper trail for the College Board for future accommodations on SAT/AP/ACT like extra time, ability to type an essay section, or to take the test in a room alone. From previous posters experience, when asking for these accommodations it is best to have a long paper trail of a documented dx.

 

2. Specific targeted information to help you know how to proceed with your individual child. Have a kid with high working memory but low processing speed? A good evaluator will give you specific information on how to adjust your teaching style to accommodate this issue (or how to remediate it if possible). As an example - I bought Visualizing and Verbalizing to help my ds with language glitches prior to our eval because many LC board members had good results with the product. It was expensive. My ds scored very highly on the reading comprehension parts of his eval and this resource was useless to us. It just wasn't the right resource for his specific issues despite being written for dyslexics and being a good fit for others. I have 2 kids diagnosed dyslexic. Both have completely different profiles, strengths and weaknesses. They do share a few resources, but often my goals and materials are completely different for both. I would never know this and would make far more errors if I didn't have their eval results to help me plan.

 

3. Access to dyslexic only tools and programs like Learning Ally, Bookshare, Don Johnson programs, etc. as well as accommodations for various extracurricular activities. My ds won the science fair for 6 counties one year in part because I was allowed to scribe for him and he was allowed to type because of his dysgraphia diagnosis. Without the dx, no accommodation and likely no way for him to show what he really knows without the LD getting in the way.

 

4. Names for the glitches and ways to cope. My ds was relieved to know he was not broken and that there was a reason he processes differently. He already knew he was slower than others and made more errors and naming it really helped him with self acceptance. We still struggle with this now as we enter the tween years but it does give us a framework to discuss the feelings.

 

[Storygirl]

Just chiming in to say that we are in the process of having DD10 evaluated by a NP for dyslexia, and the price is exactly $1800. So that seems to be a common rate.

 

We did have DS11 screened by a NP last year (different one), and our insurance covered most of that, so we ended up paying $300. Our insurance only covered it because it was related to spectrum-like issues. The insurance does not cover screening for dyslexia, so we are out of pocket for that.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Like Story, I paid $1800 for dd's np eval.  Ds' recent eval (going up the food chain to a supposedly swankier one who was really just more busy and did more outsourcing to interns) was $2100.  The $80 OT evals are feeder evals.  I paid $350 for a supposedly complete OT eval where the lady DIDN'T BOTHER TO TELL ME that ds has multiple, multiple retained primitive reflexes.  Did I mention how INSANELY upset I was about that?  Like literally, I didn't get him OT for 9 months because I thought we had nothing going on but mild this and that because she kept blowing things off.  Then the ps OT (#2) took one look at him and said SPD and direct services.  So now OT#3, who is $80 an hour btw and who does a we'll sit and chat till we're done approach to evals (for the $80), has been very forthcoming.  They just vary.  And hospital people are triple the private, grr. Around here that means $350 an hour.  

 

For the op, the more complex the situation (which is what I'm really saying, that your situation is complex), the more essential it is that you move up the food chain.  If someone JUST does IQ and achievement, which I'm telling you CAN happen in a clinical psych eval (cheap and done), you're getting presumptive diagnoses off just very, very few tools.  You can totally glitch things up and have errors and miss stuff doing that.  You've got SPD, which kisses the spectrum, meaning you need a psych who's known for being good with spectrum as well.  I'm not meaning to shock you or something.  I'm just saying move up the foodchain to get the nuances of all that stuff sorted out.

 

What approach did your OT use on the retained reflexes?  Are his eyes jumping at the midline?  If they are, that's because of a retained reflex.  So there you've got that retained reflex affecting his vision.  I'm not saying you don't need a psych eval, because you do.  But I do wonder if you could use a fresh approach on those reflexes and make some headway.  RMT seems to be the method that has a lot of successes.  Here's a link to a poster with all the RMT exercises.  Do these look like what you were doing?  If they were not, then you might like to do them.  http://www.rmtsupport.org/images/new%20small%20poster1.jpg  What RMT does is break up the 17 exercises, using different ones for different reflexes.  If you do all the exercises, bam you've covered everything.  Costs you nothing.  Do them daily for a few weeks and see what happens.  

 

Your situation is complex, and it will take an excellent psych who does numerous hours of testing to sort it out and give you useful information.  You want someone who will take the time to run a CTOPP, look at motor planning, run something for pragmatics, language (expressive and receptive), screen for APD, etc.  

[Heathermomster]

We went into NP testing after DS was identified dyslexic by our local Scottish Rite Learning Center and discovered he tests gifted with a maths and handwriting disorder.  We were shocked.  The child was compensating like mad in the classroom.  It is common for people to believe their child has maths disability prior to NP testing and later discover their kiddo has NVLD or is dyspraxic.  Good testing is like a compass.  The NP identifies the learning issues through testing and points you where you need to investigate further.    

 

The NPs that I have dealt with know nothing about OT/PT/VT issues. They test and see the results of OT/PT/VT issues.  With that stated and prior to an NP eval, I suggest you call around and speak with either an OT or a PT that specializes in children.  You want the OT to evaluate visual perception, vestibular/balance, handedness, core/pincer grasp strength, motor planning, and retained primitive reflexes.  VT doesn't always work well if OT issues are present.  In fact, the VT identified son's developmental motor issues.  Both of my children have worked with an OT and then moved over to a pediatric PT that we love.  The kids have performed balance, resistance training, and cross body type exercises.  The PT used RMT with DS, but I don't recognize a single exercise on the poster that OhE linked.

 

Kids with LDs cost more money, and that is a hard pill to swallow. The ed materials are outrageously priced due to specialization, and there is a ton of trial and effort that goes into working with these kids.   When you seek a tester, speak with them and ask questions.  Discover whether they diagnose.  You need to feel comfortable with the person that you are dealing with so don't hire anyone that you don't like.  Testing should take at least 8 hours and may be spread out over 2 days.  I cannot think of anything else to add other than good luck!

 

 

[Storygirl]

We also had some very surprising results in DS's NP report.

*LDs that I had not suspected, even though I tutor him daily.

*He has dyspraxia (developmental coordination disorder) even though he is a competitive gymnast!

*What I thought was sloppy and atypical handwriting due to ADHD is actually dysgraphia. And the dysgraphia label doesn't really mean what I thought it did.

And on and on. I could fill a whole page with these kind of revelations.

 

DS's NP report shifted my thinking. It gave me answers to the things that we had been wondering about and struggling with, but more than that, it opened up a whole new world of resources to explore. I thought the NP report would be a kind of end point, where we would now have all the answers. Instead, it was a new beginning point for the journey.

 

We get DD10's results next week. I want confirmation of the dyslexia that I suspect, but I'm also expecting some surprises.

[merry gardens]

It does sound difficult to determine exactly what's going on--and there may be more than one thing. Do the reversals that happen sometimes seem to happen more when he's tired or sick or maybe right before an illness? If he's tested when healthy and we'll rested, the things that concern you about his vision/reading might not show up when the covd evaluates him for follow-up post vt. Regarding the skipping of little words when reading--does he skip words that would change the meaning of the sentence or just those pesky little words like articles, "to be" verbs, etc? If he skips prepositions, are they ones that affect the meaning and/or does he comprehend prepostions well otherwise? Is he possibly trying to read too fast and therefore skipping those "extra" words, like some people text without them? If you tell him to re-read and go slower, can he catch that he left out a word?

 

I don't know what I'd do in your position. I wouldn't likely ask the school district for help, especially if he's overall reading and spelling words at grade level and comprehending most material. I'd look for patterns to his errors in the ways I mentioned above before spending money on further testing. I'd probably be on the phone with the covd to ask more questions about his follow-up and I'd ask about glasses if that wasn't already discussed. And if he wears glasses, I'd check if they need cleaning. My own glasses get smudges that require cleaning several times a day.

 

After writing all that, it sounds to me like "vision plus" issues. It's harder to figure out what's going on when there is more than one issue and/or if the problems are intermittent. Tired, sick and/or hungry kids present differently, and if their issues are mild enough, the problems may not appear during testing.

[ssavings]

Maybe 2E?

[ssavings]

Maybe 2E?

[merry gardens]

One more thought: you might check out Lindamood-Bell ' s programs. "Seeing Stars" and "Visualizing and Verbalizing" might help address some of the issues you mentioned. They're reading programs that address some of the visual processing issues aspects of reading. Seeing Stars has many phonics components that your son might already know, but it also addresses common words too so that portion of it may be helpful to him.

[geodob]

What you have described, fits with a type of 'Print Inversion Disorder'?

Where he only has the 'horizontal' form, but not the 'vertical'.

I've been involved in an international research project into this for about 6 years, with 3 university teams.

This has involved identifying the neuroscience and developmental process resulting in this 'disorder'?

Which has been my primary involvement.

Our university teams, have also been conducting trials into both methods of 'identification', and then 'remediation'.

Which was based on previous qualitative research conducted in England over 3 years.

 

Though it based on the fact that with vision, the image that appears on the back of our eyes?

Is upside down, and reversed from left to right.

In the first months, a babies brain develops the ability rotate this image to see the world correctly.

But their is also a later developmental process, for symbols, such as letters and numbers.

Where delays can occur in this process?

So that when they look at letters/ numbers?

They may be seen inverted left to right, and also possibly upside down?

Or just inverted left to right?

 

To test for this, the first test involves having them read a page of text. Which is turned upside down?

This tests whether they see text upside down, and inverted left to right.

 

Then the other test, involves them reading a page of text, reflected in a mirror?

Which will identify whether they are seeing text inverted left to right?

 

So that you could simply test him yourself for this, just using a mirror.

 

The remediation process that we have been trialling at schools, with success?

Simply involves providing them pages of text, to suit the way that they are seeing?

Such as printing pages of text, that are mirrored from left to right.

Where our trials in various schools?

Have shown that typically within about 3 to 4 weeks of reading this way?

That a developmental process occurs,  and that they are able to read in the normal way.

[Joyful Journeys]

For the OP, do you have an update to this? How is your son doing now?

 

My daughter is 8 and it's incredible the similarity between your description of your son and what I'm seeing with her. I too, think that since she can read slightly under grade level, the local school wouldn't help. I have all the same question ls bout what to do first, she's never had any testing done before as I've always read to wait until the magic age of 8 to worry. So here I am, worried :/.

[PeterPan]

Joyful, there's a lot of evidence now that SLD Reading should be diagnosed MUCH earlier, that you do NOT have to wait till 8, and that it can be diagnosed accurately before then.  

 

Here's an article to get you started.

 

http://healthcaresolutionsplus.org/is-3rd-grade-too-late-to-diagnose-dyslexia/

 

My ds was diagnosed with SLDs in reading, writing, and math at newly 6.  There's no need to wait.

[Joyful Journeys]

Joyful, there's a lot of evidence now that SLD Reading should be diagnosed MUCH earlier, that you do NOT have to wait till 8, and that it can be diagnosed accurately before then.

 

Here's an article to get you started.

 

http://healthcaresolutionsplus.org/is-3rd-grade-too-late-to-diagnose-dyslexia/

 

My ds was diagnosed with SLDs in reading, writing, and math at newly 6. There's no need to wait.

I wish I had seen this two years ago :/ . Though her abilities seemed well within the range of normal. She's clearly hit a wall now though, and thank goodness we are already using an OG method to teach reading so she has pretty decent decoding skills.

[PeterPan]

I wish I had seen this two years ago :/ . Though her abilities seemed well within the range of normal. She's clearly hit a wall now though, and thank goodness we are already using an OG method to teach reading so she has pretty decent decoding skills.

So are you wanting to get evals to sort it out?  Absolutely, some kids have maybe a relative weakness.  My dd, for instance, has ADHD, and I taught her with SWR.  A lot of kids with ADHD will have a touch of challenges with reading, not enough to get a dyslexia label but enough that they benefit from careful instruction.  Then my ds has dyslexia.  It's something evals can sort out for you.  They can run a CTOPP (test of phonological processing), get a RAN/RAS score (because RAN/RAS will typically be low with dyslexia), do IQ and achievement testing (to look for discrepancy) and just sort it out.  If she's super bright like this, she could be compensating and progressing but still have a big *discrepancy*.  They can diagnose with that.  

 

I definitely think it's worth exploring when you have these questions, because, no matter what the explanation is, you're learning something about how to work with her better and how she thinks and processes.  When I had my dd eval'd, I didn't get the answers I *expected*, but I got the answers I *needed* to help her better.  Also evals give us really objective measures about how they're doing, rather than us just always saying well see this thing is doing a little better now, I didn't need to worry...  

 

Simple options?  Achievement testing costs $25-65 dollars, depending on what test you do.  If you can find someone to do the Woodcock Johnson, that's even better!  It's only about an hour to administer, but it has no ceiling and gives actual grade levels.  I found it one year with a tutor for only $75, so you might just look around to see your options.  A dyslexia school will sometimes offer basic testing like a CTOPP.  They're not necessarily going to do a full psych eval (IQ, achievement, motor planning, etc.), but they'll probably at least have that CTOPP.  And that, again, would be objective information for not a ton of money.  

 

Really, it's good to sort these things out, because if it's *not* dyslexia, maybe there's something else going on.  With my dd, I saw funny things, like her spelling being super hard, and yet she was reading, was progressing.  She totally hit her wall in 5th grade, and turned out she had VISION problems!  I'm not saying freak out and add one more thing, lol.  I'm just saying that's why some carefully targeted evals can help you, because they can *eliminate* questions and help you move on to finding out what actually IS going on.  My dd had the visual memory of a 2 yo at age 10/11, when she was tested.  We ended up doing 6 months of VT (vision therapy) which made a HUGE difference.  So you don't find out these answers till you do some evals.  

 

If vision interests you, the best way to get that checked is with a developmental optometrist.  I always suggest starting with just a basic annual exam, because it's inexpensive ($60 around here) and gives you the chance to see if you like the doc (important!) and to have them SCREEN the dc.  Then, if the screening shows something, then go do that long developmental exam, kwim?  Obviously you can go gungho first thing, I'm just saying that's what I suggest.  And a basic annual exam like that with a screening by a dev. optom that's just kinda good for everyone.  It's your $60 option, just to see if there's another explanation for the weird things you're seeing.  :)

[Joyful Journeys]

Thank you so much for your thorough reply, it hits on a lot of thoughts in my head. I'm making her an appointment right now for vision. I had her regular eye exam with this same office and chose them because they do vision therapy too, so hopefully they can get her in soon since she is already a patient.

[TheAttachedMama]

I am sorry it has taken so long to reply with an update, Joyful Journeys.   I have started a reply several times, and then my toddler causes some interruption.   The problem is, is that it is hard to give a short reply, because this has been anything but a simple, short process....

 

I am happy to state that my son is now reading at grade level.  He is going through the Sonlight grade 3 readers, and reads outloud to me for 30 minutes everyday.   He reads beautifully.   I can actually sit here and enjoy the story giving minimal assistance.   

 

I still haven't brought him in for an official dyslexia diagnosis, so I have tried to do what I can at home to help re-mediate him based on issues I am seeing.   I do plan to bring him in for a neuro-psych evaluation before he gets much older.   ONLY so I can have it on record for future ACT/SAT test taking.

 

I did bring him in for another vision evaluation though.   He was not having problems tracking, and not showing signs with a problem converging his eyes.  He did have a REALLY poor visual discrimination ability.   They recomended this set of therapy called "Education Therapy" which looked like some "brain gym"---it was about $200 an hour for the therapy.   I just got a weird feeling about it like I was being scammed.   I honestly believe that it is very easy to get caught up in the "special needs" loop and sort of have some places take advantage of you.  (Because it is so hard not to get emotionally caught up in your child struggling with something as important as learning to read.) 

 

It is hard for me to remember WHERE exactly I was in the reading process when I posted this.   (I posted so many threads asking for help with my son.)   So I will sort of give you an overview of what worked for us.....

 

READING:

Stage 1:

In the first stage of reading remediation, we actually did "two a day" reading lessons.  We devoted a large portion of our time to re-mediating reading, and lightened up his other school subjects so he could focus on this skill.  

 

In the morning, I would have him do a phonics lesson from All About Reading.   The letter tiles (which I am often tempted to skip) were REALLY crucial for my son.   He could not skip sounds or transpose their order if he had to physically touch them when saying their sound.   We also did all of the fluency sheets.   For awhile, I would use the dancing bears (or I see sam) cursor method on these fluency sheets to quickly reveal one sound at a time while he was reading.  

 

We did not use the AAR readers.  (They progressed way too quickly for my son, and there were not enough stories to give him adequate practice.  My son has a very good memory.  And he could actually memorize an entire reader after one time through.   So he would often "read" from memory instead of actually reading it.)   We also did not use the AAR word cards because they caused my son to develop a very bad "sight" reading habit.

 

I was not impressed with Dancing Bears for teaching a child to read.  I felt like the AAR phonics lessons were much more solid and easier to understand.  However, the dancing bears book taught me a few key instructional skills like the cursor method.   So I basically applied the Dancing bears method to the AAR fluency sheets.

 

In the afternoon, I had my son read from the I See Sam Readers.   Those readers coupled with the AAR phonics lessons were like a 1-2 magic punch to teach my son how to read.  :)  It probably wasn't the cheapest solution in the world, but I couldn't have built a better system if I had tried.   I had him read each story in that series twice.

 

He still had a huge problem with skipping words, guessing, having problems keeping what line he was on straight.  (I started many threads asking for help at that time.)   So for months and months and months, I would always have him read in front of the AAR white board.   ANYTIME he guessed, I would have him spell the word with the letter tiles and physically point/touch each letter tile as he said the sound.     (IF I didn't have a white board, I would use the 'cursor method' to do the same thing.)   Anytime he skipped a word, I would back him up and have him slowly read each word in the sentence (sometimes even have him physically point to each word in the sentence.) 

 

stage 2:

This is where we are now. 

After we had made it so far in AAR, I finally realized that his main issue was now fluency.   I can't describe it, but it just was very painful to listen to him read.  The sentences were VERY halting and choppy.   They were read in bursts and parsed into segments that didn't make sense.   There was no intonation, and he was still reading WAY slower than a typical kid his age would be.  (I gave him one of those wpm tests, and he was scoring a year behind.)   I was glad he was reading slowly, because it meant he was stopping to sound out words instead of guessing.  But it just made things very hard t listen to.   Somehow, perhaps miraculously, he was able to still comprehend what he was reading despite how influent it was.  

SO--in stage 2, we started to work on fluency.  I did a lot of research online about fluency, and I kept seeing that repeated readings and modeling seemed to be the best thing to help.  I also read a couple of research studies that said that this was one of the most difficult skills to remediate in kids after the age 9.  (Meaning, that kids who read in this very choppy manner after age 9 will be very hard, if not impossible, to teach to read in a more smooth and fluent manner.)   After a lot of research, I decided that the app "1 minute reader" best would help my son with fluency.  So we did some work with that app with repeated readings and modeled readings.

 

I also started my son reading aloud for 15 minutes per day.  Gradually (very slowly) we built that time up to 30 minutes.  I have found that choosing REALLY interesting books helps with this process.  (That is why we went with Sonlight readers.)  The more he practices reading out loud the better he gets.

 

DOES MY SON HAVE A LEARNING ISSUE?  Mostly likely the issue is yes.   It is WAY harder for him to master things like reading than a typical kid.   But, as his mother and teacher, I wasn't willing to let him fail at something as important as learning to read and write.  I think that was the key.   I wasn't willing to take that as an excuse for him not to learn this essential skill (and learn it well.)  

 

He has a LOT of brilliance that isn't tied to his reading.  Was learning to read and write a lot more difficult than it was for a typical kid?   Most assuredly, the answer is yes.  But he worked his butt off and got to a point where he could read.   Throughout all of this, I kept screen time low and read to him a lot.  So despite all of this hard work, he still loves to read and loves books.  (When given a choice, reading is his first picked subject and his favorite.) 

 

WRITING:

Early on, I made it a point to teach him cursive.  This faster and more efficient way of writing helped him leaps and bounds with getting his thoughts on paper.   Plus, he cannot write letters backwards with cursive.   As soon as he mastered cursive, we then started working on typing.  (For the same reason.) 

 

I also taught him that he should always say the "Asian -style" of a number to himself when writing numbers so that he doesn't reverse the order of numbers.  (This was an easy coping mechanism to teach him because we had used Right Start and then Singapore math.)   So when writing twelve, for example, he would say 1-ten (write the 1) and then 2 (write the 2).   That way he doesn't write 21 by accident.

 

SPELLING:

He actually does really well with spelling.  We are still using AAS with him.   I have had to teach him that he cannot rely on *just* his visual memory for spelling because it isn't always accurate.  (for example, he would always spell "of" like "fo".)   So I told him that he needs to learn use a combination of visual memory with 'sounding' out to check himself.   (Back to the "of" example--you can hear that the first sound is the short o sound.) 

 

NOW---his sister is probably dyslexic too, but her 'symptoms' show up differently than her brothers.  For example, she learned to read much easier, but her phonetic skills are no way CLOSE to her brother.   If you asked her to sound out a nonsense word, she would probably do it incorrectly.   Her visual memory is also very weak.  (VERY!)  No matter how many times we reviewed and read through word lists in AAS she could not get it.  She would spell the words how they sounded, but could not remember that the "er" sound was spelled with an "ir" not "ur" for example.   I tried to make AAS work with a ton of review, but just couldn't do it.   I just recently switched her to Apples and Pears, and she is doing MUCH better.   That seems to work if you have a poor visual memory.  I think I am going to have her go through AAS afterwards thought just to review the phonics and 'rules'.

[Joyful Journeys]

Thank you so much!

 

I've wondered a lot of were simply not doing enough and, she needs something hands on after all or something more systematic. But I just don't know what to do. We tried AAR 1 in K and after 6 months nothing was changing...just endless CVC words that never moved to meaningful stories. I think we started to early but I digress. She hated the tiles, hated but maybe it's because it pushed her more? That was 2 yrs ago, so I don't know that I can even use that experience now.

 

I'll look into the app. I've got her reading everyday now and not just her words list and gosh it is hard to hear her guess, skip words, add sounds, lose her place, and not even realize anything is wrong even if it doesn't make sense.

 

Great tip about math, she read the number 237 today as 23. She used to only mix up 12 for 20 but now it's much more frequent and more numbers.

 

You've been a great help, I'm skeptical too of throwing lots of money to the wind, but she has complained of double vision in the past, though no longer, so I think there is something to the vision thing and I can't in good faith ignore it. If it's simply that making her so tired while reading, I'd like to nip it in the bud.

[PeterPan]

The effort her brain is expending to resolve the vision problem is effort it's NOT putting into decoding and comprehension.  If she has convergence problems, she'll also probably have tracking issues.  So losing her place, adding sounds, etc. *could* be due to tracking and maybe working memory.  

 

My ds is dyslexic, btw, so I'm not blowing off the potential for dyslexia.  I only know him, and I know with him reading was a total non-starter till we got LIPS/Barton.  I'm not certain that's the case for everyone.  With him, it was phonological processing.  So he couldn't connect sound to written, couldn't sound through words, couldn't tell you the initial sound in a word if you said mat or dog or whatever, couldn't rhyme.  That's all phonological processing, how you're processing sounds and sound to written.  But skipping words, losing your place, etc., when you have diagnosed convergence insufficiency, that may all be due to the vision problems.  

 

It usually takes a couple months to get into a good psychologist for evals, and by that point you would have 1-3 months of VT under your belt.  You should probably be seeing some improvement in the things caused by vision by that time.  You *can* also have both vision problems and dyslexia.  I'm just saying vision problems are not dyslexia.  My ds is diagnosed dyslexic, confirmed by more psychs, and he does NOT do those things.  Dyslexia is not a vision problem.  It's a phonological processing problem.  

[Joyful Journeys]

I hear you, I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I'm reading overcoming dyslexia and in some ways it's nothing like her and in other ways very much so.

 

Since we're chatting in two threads, I'll leave this one be lol. This vision thing may be the ticket. Thanks so much OhE!

Edited December 12, 2015 by Joyful Journeys