When someone says a preschool has a "good preschool curriculum," what does that mean?

[AimeeM]

The Flying Marvelous Marco's early interventionist has scheduled an eval for him, to see if he qualifies for the Special Needs Public Preschool here. I asked her if that was the same as headstart, because I have NOT heard good things about our local headstart, and she said that, no, this program isn't income dependent and is special needs based... that the teachers have a minimum of a bachelor's in SPED, preferably a master's, and that there is a maximum 10:2 ratio (main teacher and assistant).

 

They have specific "sensory" classrooms for children who need it, and that is where she's like to see Marco. He would receive OT, ST, and any other therapies through the preschool. 

 

I am far too used to a homeschooler's version of what a "CURRICULUM" is, I think, because when she said that they follow a standard preschool curriculum, I asked if she didn't think Marco would be bored (as he sat with her "smooshing" letter sounds together to make words today during therapy), she looked confused and just repeated that they have a great preschool curriculum.

 

We aren't sure if we're keeping him home next year with my other two (he'll be 3 this summer) or if we'll try the SN public preschool. Private preschool isn't an option - they all require the 3's to be fully potty trained, and with Marco's language delays any attempt at potty training right now is more frustrating than helpful.

 

Pros:

Low student/teacher ratio

Special sensory based classrooms

Doesn't require children be potty trained - they will help with that

Obviously qualified teachers

I'm not thrilled with the idea of sending a barely verbal child away from home

 

Cons:

Marco has long since mastered all preschool, and Pre-K, skills as far as academics go; he knows his colors, shapes, animals, animal sounds, letters, letter sounds, numbers (visual recognition) through at least 10, counts to 20 by 1's and 2's, by 10's to 100, can count objects (has a great understanding of one-to-one and what numbers mean), and has a basic understanding of addition and subtraction; his fine motor skills are excellent and he can nicely draw/write letters (although "big"), he understands that letters make words, words make sentences, sentences are read from left to right, etc. 

He struggles with more than one step directions, on an auditory level; his motor planning appears to be "off," and his daily gross motor skill antics (i.e. what they call his "serious sensory needs," lol) terrify even the seasoned OTs. 

He is only JUST beginning to say two-word phrases, but only a couple are well spoken enough that anyone other than me and his therapists can understand. 

Cognitively he is way ahead of the game, according to both his EI and his ST.

His speech therapist differs a bit from his EI; his ST doesn't necessarily think it's a good idea for him to be in a classroom with other children who struggle with dangerous sensory seeking behavior and serious speech issues; I think she leans towards feeling that the best environment for him would be one where he's kept intellectually stimulated and he is surrounded by peers who will *model* correct behavior and speech. Marco does best, and responds most positively, to a model-based system, even within his therapies. Rarely does he respond to "say this" or " do this, not that," instead responding better to me or the therapist simply looking interested in something and very slowly modeling how to use it appropriately, or saying it correctly. 

 

 

I'm just not sure what to do. I don't feel like either (keeping him home vs. SN preschool) is IDEAL, but... well. I don't know.

[QueenCat]

A good preschool curriculum is well rounded, and will work on social skills in a way that is planned through their activities, but looks natural. My favorite is called "Creative Curriculum". This is a specific goal oriented curriculum that reaches children in many different ways.

[Lanny]

I wonder if you can sit down with the 2 specialists, at the same table, to discuss the pros and cons that you listed and see how they respond to your concerns. It sounds like they have some wonderful things for him and it also sounds like he is very advanced with what he has learned so far

 

DD started in a private Pre School just before she was 3 and they had groups of about 8 students as I recall, with 2 teachers who had University degrees. It was *wonderful* for her.  My wife and I had not planned for her to attend Pre School, but it was great and she was extremely well prepared for K4 in the private school she attended after that.

 

I suspect that you might enroll Marco on a Trial basis and see if he likes it or not and how you feel about it and his progress or lack of progress, after he is there awhile.

 

GL.

[Laurie4b]

"A good preschool curriculum" could mean anything. Some preschool curriculums are academically oriented, like what you are concerned about. Others are more exploratory, experiential, which might be good for him. I would ask if you can go observe and/or talk with the teacher.

 

If it's merely a matter of work that is too easy, it shouldn't be hard to adapt work to his level. If it's a place you end up wanting him to be, with academics as the only drawback, then you could even give them stuff for him to work on. But it sounds like the main benefit would be social skills and language practice.

[itsheresomewhere]

It can mean anything from "we call this good but know it is crap" to a great curriculum.  Ask to check it out and see what they do. 

 

For speech/social- see what the class is like.  Are most verbal?  DS was once placed in a mostly non-verbal classroom.  Not great for someone who could talk but had speech issues.  

[AimeeM]

I'm not super concerned about the academics. It's a half day program. If he's bored, he WILL act out, but rarely is Marco bored; the problem comes in when he has to find his own entertainment ;)

Bigger concern is modeling when the children he will be modeling have even worse speech delays than he does (he will not qualify based on speech as he is making steady, rapid progress, even though he is still "very delayed"; she is hoping to qualify him based on the dangerous sensory seeking behavior) and similar sensory seeking behaviors.

I posted this in my x-post to another board on here:

 

 

 

For example, this is how therapy sessions (in-home) go right now:

 

ST sits down with toys or cards and says "Marco, what is this?"

*crickets chirp* Marco finds something more interesting to do and says nothing.

 

vs.

 

ST sits down with toys and plays on her own, talking about what she's doing - "Oh! Green frog!" "Pretty blue horse!" "Horse eats hay"

Only inviting Marco when he wanders over to see what she's excited about. 

Marco sits down and starts to mimic what the ST is doing, and saying, with the toys/cards.

 

 

It is very obvious that Marco easily picks up both good and bad speech/behavior patterns that are modeled, rather than taught... as I learned the other day when I burnt myself and muttered "Son of a b*tch!", which he promptly mimicked, perfectly  :p

So, if he hears the other kids, with similar speech issues saying things incorrectly (as he does) and he's more interested in playing WITH them, and modeling them, will things get worse instead of better?

[luuknam]

Is this a full day or a half day program?

 

C started full day preK at 3 years 3 days old. It was a mixed regular ed/special ed program though, so he was around normal kids as well. I think it was good for him, although I was hesitant at first because 6.5 hours a day, 5 days a week, plus a 23 mile commute each way seemed like a lot for a 3yo. But he liked it.

[QueenCat]

I'd give it a try for a semester, and see how it goes. I wouldn't do it for only a week or two because you really cannot see how it will work long term. The teachers need to get to know him before they can figure out the best approaches to working on his goals.

[AimeeM]

Is this a full day or a half day program?

 

C started full day preK at 3 years 3 days old. It was a mixed regular ed/special ed program though, so he was around normal kids as well. I think it was good for him, although I was hesitant at first because 6.5 hours a day, 5 days a week, plus a 23 mile commute each way seemed like a lot for a 3yo. But he liked it.

Half day. I was hoping that the class would be a mixed bag, too, as yours was, but it isn't. Specific classrooms for specific special needs.

[luuknam]

I think the teachers and aides matter more than the curriculum, btw. And you won't know what they're like unless you either hear from other people about them or observe them yourself. Degrees are less important than what the person does.

 

I agree it would probably be good for him to have positive peer role models. I don't know if there is any mixed regular ed/special ed preK program in the area?

 

ETA: possibly in a neighboring school district? Although that would be a fight to get your kid in.

[Tsuga]

A good pre-school curriculum should be 95% about exploration and adapting to school. I would not worry about academics at all particularly as he has other needs.

 

While he sounds intelligent, many well-prepared children are at his level at two. Without asking him to operationalize concepts like skip counting it is hard to know what is rote and what is truly conceptually advanced.

 

It does concern me that they cannot articulate the nature of the program. Play based? Montessori? Can they take you through a typical day?

[gingersmom]

I would not worry about the academics at all.

 

I sent my son so he could get additional therapies, be in a controlled social setting and I got a break for several hours.

 

If you don't like you can always stop going.

 

Eta: my sons classroom had a two way mirror so I could stay and observe if I wanted to.

[Shellydon]

My kids went to preschool 2 mornings a week.  I considered it good because they never did worksheets, everything was fun and play based. 

[monstermama]

Can you tour the preschool before you decide, maybe even sit in for an hour or so with a class?

 

Lots of hugs - my almost 2.5 year old is speech delayed as well, and I've been searching for a preschool that will fit his needs.  It's frustrating.

[QueenCat]

Can you tour the preschool before you decide, maybe even sit in for an hour or so with a class?

 

Lots of hugs - my almost 2.5 year old is speech delayed as well, and I've been searching for a preschool that will fit his needs.  It's frustrating.

 

This can be helpful but please remember that whenever a class has a guest, they do not act the way they do when it's just people, like the teachers and others they are used to having around (aides, therapists, etc). Even if someone is sitting there quietly, it changes the dynamics. The other children want to "figure you out", what  your "place" is in their territory. And therefore, it can also change the teacher's "norm".

[monstermama]

This can be helpful but please remember that whenever a class has a guest, they do not act the way they do when it's just people, like the teachers and others they are used to having around (aides, therapists, etc). Even if someone is sitting there quietly, it changes the dynamics. The other children want to "figure you out", what  your "place" is in their territory. And therefore, it can also change the teacher's "norm".

 

Oh, totally true!  I was thinking more along the lines of a friend's experience while looking for a preschool for her 4-year-old.  One she visited had honest to goodness school desks for the kids and expected them to spend most of the 4 hour program doing seat work.  Another one had an amazing outdoor playground but was pretty sparse on the inside.  I'm sure the majority won't be towards those extremes but I think most of them have a definite vibe, if you know what I mean?

[AimeeM]

A good pre-school curriculum should be 95% about exploration and adapting to school. I would not worry about academics at all particularly as he has other needs.

 

While he sounds intelligent, many well-prepared children are at his level at two. Without asking him to operationalize concepts like skip counting it is hard to know what is rote and what is truly conceptually advanced.

 

It does concern me that they cannot articulate the nature of the program. Play based? Montessori? Can they take you through a typical day?

He can skip count objects and one of the only things he will verbalize is numbers while playing with items. The evaluations he has had have indicated that he is advanced; however, I know many 2 year olds who are at his level and are just well-prepared, like you said - even more so among homeschool families where the younger kiddo (i.e. the two year old!) is simply exposed earlier because they are within proximity of their older siblings being taught. That could very well be the case with Marco - he has a 5 year old brother that he shadows almost constantly :D

 

I am hoping for 90% exploration, since we plan to homeschool him and I really don't care about adapting to school. That it would largely be about adapting to (and/or) school prep was a concern of mine. When I voiced it, the only answer I received was "well, he's entitled to the service if he qualifies, and we believe he will, so you should take it."

I will note that the early interventionist doesn't work FOR the county/city schools, per se (she's a third party private provider), so it isn't entirely unusual that she can't tell me exactly what type of program it is? I'm not sure what's expected and what isn't.

[Rosie_0801]

I will note that the early interventionist doesn't work FOR the county/city schools, per se (she's a third party private provider), so it isn't entirely unusual that she can't tell me exactly what type of program it is? I'm not sure what's expected and what isn't.

 

I would expect an early intervention person to know what she was talking about. 

[AimeeM]

I would not worry about the academics at all.

 

I sent my son so he could get additional therapies, be in a controlled social setting and I got a break for several hours.

 

If you don't like you can always stop going.

 

Eta: my sons classroom had a two way mirror so I could stay and observe if I wanted to.

The break would be nice :D

 

The only additional therapy he would receive is OT... but there's a reason we stopped OT. I want him to keep his current ST and I don't really want anybody else diving into the speech therapy realm with him; been there, done that, too many hands in the kitchen and it didn't go well.

 

I'm not really worried about the academics. I think I have a hard time being concise when I write posts on here - I ALWAYS ramble :)

 

My main concern is this: his ST's concern is that if he is surrounded by children who all have speech issues (bad enough to qualify for this program, which means a serious delay), and sensory seeking behavior, it could make things worse, not better, because Marco (specifically) thrives on a model-based method of instruction; he repeats what he hears, how he hears it, and he likes to do what he sees other people do (specifically, fun & daring things that 2 year olds should NOT be doing).

[QueenCat]

In your shoes, I'd give it a try for a bit. If he goes backwards over a period of time, pull him out. You really could use the break, and it would give you some designated time with your other children, to focus on them.

[AimeeM]

In your shoes, I'd give it a try for a bit. If he goes backwards over a period of time, pull him out. You really could use the break, and it would give you some designated time with your other children, to focus on them.

Hey, wudda ya mean I could use a break?! Are you insinuating that this sweet, angelic, ne'er do wrong child is the reason why I guzzle coffee well into the night?

 

If so, you're probably right. On the other hand, I adore the little cranky-butt and my gut tells me this is a bad idea. I don't know why, but I have a bad feeling about it. I don't say that lightly - I have no qualms about leaving him with our trusted sitter for a much needed day or evening out, but I don't like the idea of this, which is probably why I'm going back and forth about it. I turned down the eval once already, but when his EI brought it up again, I agreed to it (just the eval, which she thinks will get him a spot).

[Rosie_0801]

I wouldn't send him either, for the same reasons as your speech therapist.

 

That, and I wouldn't trust anyone called Flying Marvellous Marco not to climb out the window and go adventuring. No offence to your Marco. I could be projecting. I wouldn't have trusted *mine* to stay put!

[zoobie]

I'd give it a try. If he's sensory seeking and the school will provide all kinds of new, exciting, different kinds of stimulation, he might sleep better too. You can't reproduce the volume or variety at home--not saying you don't try to stimulate him of course! :) I'm looking at a different preschool for my challenging toddler, and I feel horribly guilty for looking forward to the break. Could that be your bad gut feeling? You know he needs *something*. This is free, and the people are highly trained and qualified. You aren't leaving him to the wolves. If it helps him, woot! If it doesn't, you mark it off the list and move on to something else.

 

FWIW, the EI evaluators we worked with were independent contractors through the county. They worked for several counties doing only intake and evals. I wouldn't think anything about them not knowing the intricacies of the multiple programs available in all locations. I'm sure every area is run differently, but it's possible they have segmented assignments in your area too.

[AimeeM]

I wouldn't send him either, for the same reasons as your speech therapist.

 

That, and I wouldn't trust anyone called Flying Marvellous Marco not to climb out the window and go adventuring. No offence to your Marco. I could be projecting. I wouldn't have trusted *mine* to stay put!

No offense taken, lol. 

I don't trust him not to hurt himself. I don't trust people who do not know him to protect him from hurting himself. I do not trust people who haven't seen his wonderful attributes, and who have no sincere bond with him, not to simply get frustrated with him. 

He has worked so hard (we all have), and the idea of him going backwards makes me want to cry.

[AimeeM]

I'd give it a try. If he's sensory seeking and the school will provide all kinds of new, exciting, different kinds of stimulation, he might sleep better too. You can't reproduce the volume or variety at home--not saying you don't try to stimulate him of course! :) I'm looking at a different preschool for my challenging toddler, and I feel horribly guilty for looking forward to the break. Could that be your bad gut feeling? You know he needs *something*. This is free, and the people are highly trained and qualified. You aren't leaving him to the wolves. If it helps him, woot! If it doesn't, you mark it off the list and move on to something else.

 

FWIW, the EI evaluators we worked with were independent contractors through the county. They worked for several counties doing only intake and evals. I wouldn't think anything about them not knowing the intricacies of the multiple programs available in all locations. I'm sure every area is run differently, but it's possible they have segmented assignments in your area too.

Yeah, our EI is an independent contractor. She doesn't only do intake and evals (she comes to back up his other therapies every week, with her own therapies), but she does generally "lose" her kids at age 3, when they age out of the specific program Marco is in, and head into the early intervention segment of the school district, which is why I'm not sure that she *knows* much about the preschool program - her job generally ends at the same age as the kids can qualify for the SN preschool program.

[AimeeM]

Oh, I know I feel guilty... but I don't think that's the gut feeling. I've thought about it a lot and I think the gut feeling is more safety oriented. I have no doubt that the staff wouldn't hurt him, but realistically I understand that it took his team, who work with him one-on-one, a solid 6 months to recognize that tell-tale glint in his eyes, and smirk dancing on his lips, that says "I'm about to do something you won't like and that could potentially put me in the hospital!". 

Don't get me wrong, Flying Little Dude is a charmer and is the most affectionate child I know (his ST is in love with him, as admitted to him being one of her favorites, and every time a session has to be missed, she smothers him with hugs and "God, I've missed you, Marco!" comments). He is a sweet, sweet boy... he's just busy-busy-busy, has absolutely no sense of danger, no sense of self/bodily awareness, and has energy that the energizer bunny would envy :)

[zoobie]

Check the classroom out in person before you decide against it. If it's designed for special needs kids, it should be pretty safe. (Versus your run of the mill church nursery or YMCA kids' room or someone's home!) The people who get masters' degrees in special education aren't your run of the mill caregivers either. :)

[AimeeM]

Check the classroom out in person before you decide against it. If it's designed for special needs kids, it should be pretty safe. (Versus your run of the mill church nursery or YMCA kids' room or someone's home!) The people who get masters' degrees in special education aren't your run of the mill caregivers either. :)

I'm trying to keep an open mind. We're going through with the eval and I'll tour it if he qualifies. I know I tend to be overprotective. 

[myfunnybunch]

Definitely visit the classroom.

 

I would expect that a good preschool curriculum, particularly for children with special needs, would be experiential, play-based, and embed the child's learning goals into the kinds of natural activities that occur in preschools. Lots of social skills and language practice in natural play settings, for example: Circle time, play activities that address sensory needs, games, musical activities, ways to use a child's strengths (such as academic ability and understanding) to engage them in areas in which they need support. With a low ratio of staff to students, and lots of experience, it can be a great place for a child with limited verbal skills.

 

Pre-homeschooling, actually before my boys were born!, I was an early interventionist (special education for children birth through 8), and some of my favorite places were the preschools. The staff were always amazing, and thoroughly enjoyed the children and families. Of course no one loves a child as much as mom, but the preschools I was in were always very nurturing places. :)