Using inexpensive workbooks for grammar instruction (1st-5th)?

[alisoncooks]

We currently use CLE LA, but I'm considering using something like Flash Kids Language Arts or Scholastic Success with Grammar or the McGraw-Hill Treasures workbooks for grammar instruction in grades 1st through...say, 5th or 6th. I daren't say it's "complete" or "rigorous" but I am looking for more than just "adequate."

Has anyone used this sort of inexpensive, open-and-go grammar workbook for the early years, then transition into a more formal, thorough grammar program in middle school? How'd it work out for you?

[Rebel Yell]

Yes- I used Spectrum workbooks.  It was great- did the job, nice schooly-looking pages for the portfolio. Much of the Grammar is too abstract for young brains, so needs to be repeated (or started later) so I never saw any value in spending big bucks on complicated programs that won't really sink in until the brain matures- and it;s so much easier to skip pages in an $8 workbook than a $$$ program, at least for me it is.

[Farrar]

We used some like that for awhile. It was a complete waste of time.

 

However, I've sort of come to the opinion that most grammar instruction in early elementary is a complete waste of time. I think it's a better model to do a gentle introduction to the concepts a couple of times in the early grades (like with Schoolhouse Rock videos - just super basic stuff, keeping it light, no great time spent) and wait and do it much more intensively in a year, perhaps in 4th or 5th grade. I think it takes younger kids eons to figure out what a noun or a verb really *is* and I think they struggle even more with concepts like clauses and predicates and so forth. But if they get it when they're just a little older, they can just pick it all up at once.

[FO4UR]

What I've learned trying stuff on my big three...and how I will do things for Baby Girl...

 

 

Introduce grammar concepts each year, briefly.  Basic stuff. Noun, verb, etc....  I like The Sentence Family, but we used FLL 1/2 and I kept that book too.  I like the lists of verbs and such.

 

Apply grammar knowledge in copywork and dictations. The first question I ask is "Where is the verb?"  Then..."Who/what is doing that?"  And..."What are they doing it to?"

 

 

And *AFTER* they begin to recognize that the DOG is the one BARKING, then we name "dog" as the subject and barking as the verb.  And, I am in the midst of this with my big three kids, so the jury is out on how this works.  But I can tell you that worksheets not only produce copious whining, but little retention.  jme.

 

Grammar this way is 3-5min tacked on at the end of a copywork/dictation lesson and it seems - to the kids - like we are "skipping" grammar. :coolgleamA:

[alisoncooks]

(This question is mostly for oldest DD, who'll be in grade 4 next year.)

 

FWIW, I'm not actually hugely invested in early, formal grammar, but I do need something structured and systematic to teach mechanics and usage.  Punctuation, capitalization, homophones, synonyms, contractions, etc. I need something to walk me through all those little things that I'm currently getting via CLE.  This is why I'm wondering if a cheap workbook will fit the need.

 

So, maybe a better question would be: 

What is the best, inexpensive tool for teaching basic punctuation/capitalization/grammar mechanics rules?  Are those typically covered in formal writing, otherwise?

[FO4UR]

(This question is mostly for oldest DD, who'll be in grade 4 next year.)

 

FWIW, I'm not actually hugely invested in early, formal grammar, but I do need something structured and systematic to teach mechanics and usage.  Punctuation, capitalization, homophones, synonyms, contractions, etc. I need something to walk me through all those little things that I'm currently getting via CLE.  This is why I'm wondering if a cheap workbook will fit the need.

 

So, maybe a better question would be: 

What is the best, inexpensive tool for teaching basic punctuation/capitalization/grammar mechanics rules?  Are those typically covered in formal writing, otherwise?

 

 

I think consistent, studied dictation is most efficient.

 

I have this grammar wb, and it's OK.  We dropped it though, so...

[mom31257]

I tried it for about a semester and felt like it was useless. I had bought several $1 ebooks from Scholastic and was pulling pages from all of them. I even tried to make a decent scope and sequence, but it never felt solid or to have any continuity. You might look at Rod and Staff and try doing it mainly orally. I used it for the next semester and liked it, but CLE is more independent.

 

Ds retains information better with writing, and I wanted to transition to CLE by the middle school years anyway, so I went ahead and switched to it. He has learned a lot and is very solid in grammar now. He has completed 4th and 5th grades and begins 6th shortly.

 

 

[Farrar]

Ah, mechanics. I think copywork and dictation are the best way to teach them. You can try mechanics workbooks, but, again, no luck for us. I think it has to be learned in context and that's copywork.

[8filltheheart]

I have no recommendations for a punc workbook bc I have found teaching in context the easiest method. Purdue Owl has a concise list of basic rules that should be mastered.

 

I do want to interject an alternative pov concerning grammar instruction for elementary age children. Not only do I believe that elementary age children can master fundamental grammar concepts, I have witnessed them deliberately use their grammar knowledge to create stronger sentences. (In terms of the question about punctuation, it is far easier to implement punctuation rules when you can identify the grammar rules controlling their use.)

[alisoncooks]

8FillTheHeart - I'm glad you chimed in because your writing program is part of what is causing all of my LA angst, LOL!  

 

I have printed Treasured Conversations, and I have read it a few times, wrapping my brain around it.  It is wonderful!  I'm convinced we must use it, maybe next year.  DD wants to continue CLE LA, but I'm concerned about the workload of CLE LA + TC (this is my child who just recently started reading near grade level, and still doesn't like to touch a pencil).   

My search for an easy punctuation-type workbook was to find something easy to add onto TC (with the hope of dropping CLE).  I wasn't sure if TC would be "enough" on its own, since DD is very behind in her writing mechanics/usage skills.

 

Perhaps we could just alternate CLE & TC?  Week on, week off sort of thing...

Does all that make sense?  :blushing:

 

 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I, too, believe that starting grammar earlier is better.  I've always made it a priority, starting in second or third grade.  Not only are young kids capable of figuring out grammar concepts, they actually enjoy it.  All the 4th graders I know love (or at least like) diagramming sentences.  Their brains just work like that.  Try to teach the same thing to middle schoolers and they'll balk.  

 

That being said, I see little value in workbook-type grammar lessons.  Filling in blanks, circling things, etc, doesn't do a good job of getting the information into the brain.  On the other hand, writing out endless sentences is tedious and may cause a melt-down.  I have found that doing lessons mostly orally, with maybe the equivalent of two sentences being written (at the most) per lesson, is effective for teaching grammar.  

 

What we've done: For First Language Lessons takes 5 or 10 minutes (tops), and is done orally.  I used it for my older two dc, and they loved it.  Then, in 3rd grade, we switched to Rod and Staff English.  It is a gentle, effective way to introduce grammar, specifically parts of speech, to younger kids.  Again, if you do it orally, it takes only about 5-10 minutes, three days a week.  For my 3rd DC, we skipped FLL, and just R&S3 in third grade.

 

The key is that you keep it gentle.  You don't try to make them master everything the first time through.  Know and expect to repeat the same material, in greater depth and complexity, each year through 8th grade.  At that point, they should have it pretty well mastered, but at no point was it stressful or even all that hard.  

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I'm thrilled you like it! I'm sorry that I can't comment on CLE bc I have never even seen it.

I experimented with my own 3rd grader this year. For the first time I used a writing curriculum, TC. ;) Whether or not she is she is just flattering her momma, I am not sure, but she insists it is her favorite thing in school. :)

Her writing has radically improved this yr. I cover mechanics when we discuss her outlines and how she can combine sentences. For the way I naturally teach, talking about the rules in terms of the child's own writing makes the most sense to me. For example, if she wants to combine 2 sentences by making one an introductory subordinate clause, we talk about how that requires a comma. If she combines with an and but does not make the second a clause, we discuss how that does not require a comma. Has she mastered the concepts? No. This past week she incorporated several unnecessary commas. I simply use mistakes as an opportunity to teach.

I do go through the 3rd season of AG with my middle schoolers. Usually the rules are just review by that stage.

[fourisenough]

I think the single most effective method of conveying proper grammar, including punctuation, to young kids is for mom (or whomever is primary teacher) to learn it so she can teach it very naturally, in the context of her own lessons.

 

My youngest DD will turn six next month. She regularly copies one sentence from our literature read-aloud. As she copies, I say aloud things such as, "Notice the pronoun I is an upper-case letter. We always capitalize I." Or, "This word is a contraction for 'cannot', so the apostrophe stands for the letters the author left out." I don't expect her to be able to use these conventions in her own writing yet, but she is certainly ready to hear of them and copy them with understanding, much the way we name constellations as we see them or point out cardinal directions on our walk to the library. So, rather than buying cheap, rather worthless workbooks, buy yourself a grammar program and work through it for your own self-education, then teach it on the fly in the context of your student's writing. Ultimately, it will be cheaper and even less time-consuming than repeatedly using a workbook that likely won't 'stick'.

[8filltheheart]

I think the single most effective method of conveying proper grammar, including punctuation, to young kids is for mom (or whomever is primary teacher) to learn it so she can teach it very naturally, in the context of her own lessons.

 

My youngest DD will turn six next month. She regularly copies one sentence from our literature read-aloud. As she copies, I say aloud things such as, "Notice the pronoun I is an upper-case letter. We always capitalize I." Or, "This word is a contraction for 'cannot', so the apostrophe stands for the letters the author left out." I don't expect her to be able to use these conventions in her own writing yet, but she is certainly ready to hear of them and copy them with understanding, much the way we name constellations as we see them or point out cardinal directions on our walk to the library. So, rather than buying cheap, rather worthless workbooks, buy yourself a grammar program and work through it for your own self-education, then teach it on the fly in the context of your student's writing. Ultimately, it will be cheaper and even less time-consuming than repeatedly using a workbook that likely won't 'stick'.

This is the way I teach as well except I ask questions instead of just pointing out. For example, "What do you notice about the word I? or Look at the word can't. What do you notice in that word? What does the word mean? What is missing and what has been added?" My goal is to get them to observe for themselves what I want them to learn. I guide them there through directed questions. Once they have made the observation, we discuss the whys.

 

Treasured Conversations, the book the OP referred to up thread, has 2 main objectives. The first objective is teacher training in how to teach children naturally via questions and dialogue. The second objective is to teach foundational writing skills directly implementing the dialogue approach. It is not a traditional workbook. It does not, however, really incorporate teacher training in mechanics since those decisions are dependent on what the child actually writes. IIRC, I think semicolons and quotation marks are the only rules I specifically address.

 

Learning the rules yourself is by far the best way. If you know the rules, you can ask the questions they need to consider.

[alisoncooks]

The methods described above are admirable, and I would love if that came naturally for us. My main concern is that it's not sustainable right now, not with DH's health issues. I *have* the knowledge to teach my daughter at her current level (when to capitalize a word or use a question mark), but I feel I don't have the time or energy to make it consistent or meaningful. This is where CLE has worked for us -- a workbook gets done in hospital waiting areas when other things don't.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I think our best bet is to continue CLE LA (which she loves) and add in TC (which I loved reading through), and if we need to take a break at some point, then we will. :)

[8filltheheart]

Did you see FairProspects's post on the k8 board? She asked about a mechanics book. That thread might generate some responses that will help. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/548477-best-workbook-resource-for-summer-mechanics-work/

[ondreeuh]

I used McGraw-Hill LA 1 for my kindergartener and he just finished Treasures 2 in 1st grade. It was actually a very effective, enjoyable LA program! We are trying out Moving Beyond the Page for a more integrated approach, but there was a large part of me that wanted to keep going with Treasures since it was working so well and my son really liked it.

 

We used the Treasures textbooks (I think there are five for first grade, and two per grade after that). Each unit has about 1 week of reading/writing in the textbook. First there is a very short story or article that uses the vocabulary words for the week. Then there is either a picture book or nonfiction article that uses the same vocabulary words. The rest of the unit has some combination of a writing assignment, poem, nonfiction article, etc.

 

I used the free workbook pages to compile my own workbooks. Each weekly unit has 8-9 practice pages, and I chose the 5 I wanted to use. I skipped the fluency practice and the random skill worksheets like reading a map. There was almost always a practice page that we used to interact with the text - like describing the characters and setting, or keeping track of causes & effects in the story. There are "beyond" level practice workbooks out there to download, which we used for more advanced work.

 

Then I pulled out the five grammar transparencies and five grammar worksheets for each unit. I printed everything out and bound it with my pro-click in five-week themes. So each day we would read out of the textbook or do a writing project out of the textbook, together do a practice page, I would teach the grammar concept (or do proofreading) with the printed "transparency," and he would follow by doing the grammar page independently.

 

There are spelling worksheets we didn't use, but they could benefit someone else.

 

In the 2nd grade level we covered nouns, verbs, 4 types of adjectives, 3 types of adverbs, pronouns, possessives, contractions, synonyms, antonyms, and homophones, author's purpose, characterization and setting, cause and effect, supporting details, writing a biography, writing a friendly letter, comparing and contrasting ... that's just off the top of my head, and there is a lot more. And it was quick and painless. Most days we were done in 10 minutes. The frequent review and proofreading practice kept skills fresh.

[FairProspects]

I agree that in context is the best way to teach these types of concepts, but I have to admit that it is just not working for my dyslexic. He needs explicit instruction in the rules and he needs to correct a lot of sentences or circle/underline answers in color to practice applying the rules. Maybe this is because his own dysgraphia makes it difficult for him to come up with complex sentence structure without seeing it modeled first? IDK.

 

If it comes up over here too, I would love more input on a workbook to pull out practice on these various types of mechanics so that these errors are less frequent in his writing. IMHE, there are some kids who need separate instruction on the pieces before they can pull it all together.

[fourisenough]

The methods described above are admirable, and I would love if that came naturally for us. My main concern is that it's not sustainable right now, not with DH's health issues. I *have* the knowledge to teach my daughter at her current level (when to capitalize a word or use a question mark), but I feel I don't have the time or energy to make it consistent or meaningful. This is where CLE has worked for us -- a workbook gets done in hospital waiting areas when other things don't.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I think our best bet is to continue CLE LA (which she loves) and add in TC (which I loved reading through), and if we need to take a break at some point, then we will. :)

So sorry- I missed the part about health problems with your DH. That changes everything! I think continuing with CLE makes good sense under the circumstances. Good luck!

[Mom2OandE]

We did a book called Hot Fudge Monday's and my kids and I loved it. We would also do close readings at that age. Pick a favorite paragraph and photo copy it. Highlight parts of speech in different colors, note favorite parts, ask questions about inference, etc. My dd was more than ready for Analytical Grammar in 6th.

[kiwik]

Ds8 just read 'attack of the killer noun' from Brookdale press. Pretty light but fun and he probably won't forget what a noun is.