Why do you dislike Abeka?

[amyc78]

I greatly need to simplify next year. I am looking at using Abeka for my 3rd graders Language Arts for the very reason that it looks simple and it will get done. For the past 2 years we have been using a hodge podge of Sonlight Language Arts, CC memory work, grammar workbooks, All About Spelling and pseudo classical exercises (dictation, narration, etc). All the different pieces are overwhelming and Abeka just looks so SIMPLE and DOABLE. 

 

But I also know Abeka is not super "popular" with the CM/WTM/Classical crowds and I'm curious to know why. 

 

Thanks for any insight you can give me!

 

 

[Zoo Keeper]

Some people dislike A Beka because of the point of view of the publisher, not so much on account of the academic content.  Some folks find A Beka too "preachy." 

 

Many find A Beka's white-washed, squeaky clean history books to be not meshing with their worldview, especially as you go into the upper grades (many have a similar complaint about BJU history).  They feel the history is not balanced in its presentation (i.e., Catholic/Protestant, Capitalism/Communism, etc.)  Some find the science lacking for a similar worldview issue (Creation/Evolution debate). 

 

Others feel that A Beka can be too "drill and kill" oriented in upper level programs, when more discussion and reasons why might be a better fit to develop critical thinking.

 

I agree with all those reasons, though not to the extent that *some* people take their dislike (which may be perfectly valid for their worldview or their family situation).

 

 

 Having said all that, ;) I have used A Beka grammar workbooks during various years when my children needed something that they could do without so much hand holding from me.  It worked well.  I do skip any of the writing portions (book reports, research paper, etc.) because we use something different for writing.  I have found their grammar books to be easy to understand and easy to use, even if some of the sentences got on my nerves. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I think it would be fine for grammar. It does review a lot, but there are reasons for that too, mostly because of classroom use. Students transfer in and out or may not "get" the concepts in earlier years. However, I attribute my stronger grammar skills to A Beka. I was bored in about 7th grade when we were reviewing nouns and verbs again, but there were some in the class who didn't get it.

 

I think you may find homeschoolers disliking A Beka here because it is very schoolish. It is written more for a classroom with busy work and then adapted for homeschoolers. There are some other curricula written especially for homeschooling.

 

The main criticisms I hear about A Beka is that there isn't enough critical thinking. Their content subjects (history and science) can be very narrow in scope with a strong emphasis on American exceptionalism and a more providential view of history that can rub some the wrong way. My issue with the content subjects is that they rarely present more than one view and are very textbook oriented with snippets of information condensed into a dry text for learning. The same thing with science whether you are YE or not. There are so many other ways to learn the content subjects that provide a richer experience, imo. Classical education has a strong emphasis on original texts, great literature and history as an organizing theme. Therefore, A Beka does not fit that model well.

 

However, their language arts program is very strong and produces students with a good grasp of grammar. It is in the top picks by Cathy Duffy and was recommended in the first WTM book by SWB. I also think their math is very good in lower levels and am using it for grammar stage, but I would not continue in higher maths as I do not feel there is enough critical thinking for logic stage and rhetoric stage.

 

If you do use their grammar, you could use their composition too, but it would be perfectly appropriate to supplement with a different writing program if you have one you like. I have a few other grammar programs higher on my list, but A Beka does an excellent job of making sure your child excels in grammar usage, diagramming and mechanics, and I wouldn't have any issues using it if I needed to. Their lower grades are tied to phonics, and they also teach cursive too young, in my opinion, but none of those issues would be present in third grade. It's a good year to start. If it is a good fit for you and your family, go for it.

[SnMomof7]

I find there are too many pieces for me :). I have a hard time figuring out what I really need. Soooo many test books and answer key books etc. I did teach my oldest DD to read with A Handbook for Reading and their first grade readers and nothing else. Good phonics. We use CLE for LA. Much easier for me to figure out.

[Peaceful Isle]

I actually like Abeka language 3. It is one of my favorites. 

 

 

[Ellie]

I greatly need to simplify next year. I am looking at using Abeka for my 3rd graders Language Arts for the very reason that it looks simple and it will get done. For the past 2 years we have been using a hodge podge of Sonlight Language Arts, CC memory work, grammar workbooks, All About Spelling and pseudo classical exercises (dictation, narration, etc). All the different pieces are overwhelming and Abeka just looks so SIMPLE and DOABLE. 

 

But I also know Abeka is not super "popular" with the CM/WTM/Classical crowds and I'm curious to know why. 

 

Thanks for any insight you can give me!

 

Tiresome, redundant, repetitious, overkill. There are so many other ways of acquiring knowledge without ABeka's overkill factor.

 

If I wanted a textbook, just-like-school approach, it would be Rod and Staff. Same academic excellence without the overkill factor.

[texasmama]

Whitewashed, preachy, and very writing heavy. There are so many other options.

[Critterfixer]

I don't like being put in a box. That's the long and short of it.

 

 

[Donna A.]

I actually like Abeka language 3. It is one of my favorites. 

 

I'm a CM gal through and through, but I do like this one, as well. 

[SilverMoon]

White Christian men are always the good guys, gratuitous salvation prompts, dry as dust, super repetitive, expensive, gobs of parts, and the spiral nature makes it a royal pain to just use the parts you actually need. You did ask. :o 

 

Out of the bajillion homeschoolers I've heard of who use all Abeka, I only know one who was/is successful longterm. Most of them cave under the pressure of getting it all done.

[Ellie]

White Christian men are always the good guys, gratuitous salvation prompts, dry as dust, super repetitive, expensive, gobs of parts, and the spiral nature makes it a royal pain to just use the parts you actually need. You did ask. :o

 

Out of the bajillion homeschoolers I've heard of who use all Abeka, I only know one who was/is successful longterm. Most of them cave under the pressure of getting it all done.

 

Oh, I forgot this one.

 

When I'm talking to someone who says she "tried" homeschooling but put her children back in school after a year (sometimes after only a semester), 99.99% of the time she used all ABeka. I've never heard that about any other publisher. People who use all BJUP or all ACE or Sonlight or [insert any other publisher] and don't like it do something else instead of putting their children back in school.

 

And SO often, the reason baby homeschoolers start out with all ABeka is not that they did the research; it's that they withdrew their children from a school that used all ABeka (what?), or their BFF teaches in a school that uses all ABeka and who said it's the best, even though the BFF has never taught anything else so how would she even know, or their neighbor's mother's aunt's daughter lives across the street from someone who uses all ABeka so it must be good.

[KrissiK]

It is very much a textbook company. Not much into the living books philosophy that permeates these boards. However, I do use quite a bit of A Beka. I like their math a lot. I've used their phonics program for my three oldest, and they are good readers. My 4th has some LD and A Beka just isn't working for her. We've always used R&S for Grammar, but A Beka's consumable workbooks have always tempted me. We've also switched over to their history. I would agree with the viewpoints of others regarding their history, so we work on balancing that, but my kids never did well with the listening/narrating sort of history. I'd end up having to read the stories from SOTW several times for them to even be able to answer the questions. For history, A Beka wouldn't be my first choice, but sometimes you have to give up your ideals and do what works and since we switched this year, history has been working for us.

[amyc78]

Thank you for all the great, honest replies!! Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. 

To answer some of the issues mentioned (not that any of you are trying to convince me one way or the other, just working this out in my own head  :001_smile: )...

 

We are not looking at using ALL Abeka by any means. I just need something to simplify Language Arts. We use Sonlight LA3 right now and many days only the copy work and reading gets done because we don't ever get to the parts that require me to explain. I guess I could hand him the teachers guide but that seems silly. I had a chance to look through the Abeka Language 3 stuff yesterday and here is what i liked… the main workbook is simple and doable, would be generally independent for my DS and seems to lay a clear foundation of grammar and composition. I have no problem with skipping stuff if it gets redundant or fluffing up with creative writing, dictation/narration activities as the opportunity arises. But this seems like something that at a bare minimum I can just hand to son and it will GET DONE on the days I cannot be involved.

 

I liked the cursive workbook as well because it seemed to combine some reading comprehension, dictionary skills, etc that would interest my son beyond just 'copy this cursive copy work'.

 

Spelling we would skip or use as an extra but we like AAS for now and plan to use Phonetic Zoo eventually.

 

As for other subjects, we use MUS and LOF for math, VP Self-Paced History, SOTW (some narration and journaling work will come in here), CC memory work and LOTS of interest led reading and crafting. And his 4th grade year, we will go into CC Essentials and use their language arts (unless we hate it). So I'm not even worried about Abeka long term, just for this year...

[amyc78]

I find there are too many pieces for me :). I have a hard time figuring out what I really need. Soooo many test books and answer key books etc. I did teach my oldest DD to read with A Handbook for Reading and their first grade readers and nothing else. Good phonics. We use CLE for LA. Much easier for me to figure out.

 

Would you explain this in greater detail? When I looked yesterday, it looked very simple but I didn't look at the Teachers Guide in much detail. Seemed like I would hand him either cursive or LA3 workbook and most of the work was self-explanatory. We are not using their spelling and he no longer needs reading/phonics instruction...

 

[fairfarmhand]

I find there are too many pieces for me :). I have a hard time figuring out what I really need. Soooo many test books and answer key books etc. I did teach my oldest DD to read with A Handbook for Reading and their first grade readers and nothing else. Good phonics. We use CLE for LA. Much easier for me to figure out.

This.

 

I like BJUP Grammar better. One workbook for the kid, one TM for the mom, and (if you want) a test booklet. However, I use the printable CD that has extra worksheets and use those as tests.

 

One lesson is the front and back of a page, so my kids always did the front of the page with me (10 minutes usually) and completed the back on their own. It was VERY easy.

 

However, there is a format change at the 7th grade level that I hate, so I don't use it after grade 6.

[Ellie]

Thank you for all the great, honest replies!! Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. 

To answer some of the issues mentioned (not that any of you are trying to convince me one way or the other, just working this out in my own head  :001_smile: )...

 

We are not looking at using ALL Abeka by any means. I just need something to simplify Language Arts. We use Sonlight LA3 right now and many days only the copy work and reading gets done because we don't ever get to the parts that require me to explain. I guess I could hand him the teachers guide but that seems silly. I had a chance to look through the Abeka Language 3 stuff yesterday and here is what i liked… the main workbook is simple and doable, would be generally independent for my DS and seems to lay a clear foundation of grammar and composition. I have no problem with skipping stuff if it gets redundant or fluffing up with creative writing, dictation/narration activities as the opportunity arises. But this seems like something that at a bare minimum I can just hand to son and it will GET DONE on the days I cannot be involved.

 

I liked the cursive workbook as well because it seemed to combine some reading comprehension, dictionary skills, etc that would interest my son beyond just 'copy this cursive copy work'.

 

Spelling we would skip or use as an extra but we like AAS for now and plan to use Phonetic Zoo eventually.

 

As for other subjects, we use MUS and LOF for math, VP Self-Paced History, SOTW (some narration and journaling work will come in here), CC memory work and LOTS of interest led reading and crafting. And his 4th grade year, we will go into CC Essentials and use their language arts (unless we hate it). So I'm not even worried about Abeka long term, just for this year...

 

I prefer R&S's English over ABeka any day, yes, even though the children have to write on actual paper. Believe me when I, a person who was one of millions who never saw a workbook in school, tell you that he will be able to write on actual paper. And FTR, the English series includes dictionary skills. :-)

[Southern Ivy]

I grew up in a school that did only A Beka. The grammar wasn't too bad and I learned a lot. However, when it came to literature, history, and science, I was sorely lacking in critical thinking skills. It's very "drill and kill" like someone mentioned and that leaves little to no room for critical thinking skills. 

Also, an issue I have with the whole curriculum is that it has not been updated in several years (history/science) and they have no plans to update. With continual changes and discoveries in both, I find not updating to be a disturbing practice. 

ETA: Once I went to college, I found that I had not had exposure to a number of wonderful works of literature thanks to A Beka high school lit. If, by chance, we had read something that should be the norm for high schoolers (Canterbury Tales, for example), it was so edited to fit their belief system, that I was beyond shocked when I read the real work.
I was also completely lost on in depth discussions and comparisons of other works. 
I loved my high school, but this curriculum in many ways left me at a disadvantage as I got older.
(The school has since gone with a different curriculum due to the issues that most of the pps have addressed - especially critical thinking skills and lack of updates.)

[GrammarGirl]

I grew up in a school that did only A Beka. The grammar wasn't too bad and I learned a lot. However, when it came to literature, history, and science, I was sorely lacking in critical thinking skills. It's very "drill and kill" like someone mentioned and that leaves little to no room for critical thinking skills.

 

Also, an issue I have with the whole curriculum is that it has not been updated in several years (history/science) and they have no plans to update. With continual changes and discoveries in both, I find not updating to be a disturbing practice.

 

ETA: Once I went to college, I found that I had not had exposure to a number of wonderful works of literature thanks to A Beka high school lit. If, by chance, we had read something that should be the norm for high schoolers (Canterbury Tales, for example), it was so edited to fit their belief system, that I was beyond shocked when I read the real work.

I was also completely lost on in depth discussions and comparisons of other works.

I loved my high school, but this curriculum in many ways left me at a disadvantage as I got older.

(The school has since gone with a different curriculum due to the issues that most of the pps have addressed - especially critical thinking skills and lack of updates.)

Your teachers are also to blame for not exposing you to more works. A textbook should be a tool, not the authority.

[Southern Ivy]

Your teachers are also to blame for not exposing you to more works. A textbook should be a tool, not the authority.

It was a unique situation and I believe they did what they knew best to do at the time and with what they were provided.  The teachers used what they had and what they were told to use. This was mainly controlled by a micromanaging principal. So in this case, it wasn't the teachers but rather the principal that should be blamed.

Once he was removed (far too many years later), they were able to expand their curricula and the results have been really great from what my mom (the new principal) says. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Would you explain this in greater detail? When I looked yesterday, it looked very simple but I didn't look at the Teachers Guide in much detail. Seemed like I would hand him either cursive or LA3 workbook and most of the work was self-explanatory. We are not using their spelling and he no longer needs reading/phonics instruction...

 

I don't know that this is the case with every subject and grade level. If you have previewed the teachers manual and liked what you see, you will probably be fine. I don't think there are a lot of extras for grammar at this grade. I think most of the moving parts are in math and phonics and language arts at earlier stages. This is where all the flashcards and visuals come into play. You would probably be fine with this for 3rd grade grammar. In fact, I was recently looking at just the language book (I have one son who loves colorful A Beka workbooks) and was thinking I wouldn't even need the full LA curriculum guide since the instruction is right there in the workbook. That is, unless you are planning to include their reading and other language arts subjects. Their handwriting is probably pretty open and go as well.

[amyc78]

I don't know that this is the case with every subject and grade level. If you have previewed the teachers manual and liked what you see, you will probably be fine. I don't think there are a lot of extras for grammar at this grade. I think most of the moving parts are in math and phonics and language arts at earlier stages. This is where all the flashcards and visuals come into play. You would probably be fine with this for 3rd grade grammar. In fact, I was recently looking at just the language book (I have one son who loves colorful A Beka workbooks) and was thinking I wouldn't even need the full LA curriculum guide since the instruction is right there in the workbook. That is, unless you are planning to include their reading and other language arts subjects. Their handwriting is probably pretty open and go as well.

 

yes! i felt like i could do without the TM as well… although the Abeka sales rep was totally against the idea. But I didn't see anything in the language workbook or the cursive workbook that needed a TM. She did mention that all creative writing and composition assignments were in the TM so that is something to consider...

[Ellie]

Your teachers are also to blame for not exposing you to more works. A textbook should be a tool, not the authority.

 

If the ABeka teacher's curriculum (which you understand is not the teacher edition of a specific text, or an answer key for a specific text; it's classroom management, what to say next, which page of which book to teach, plus assignments that are not in the student materials) don't specify that works other than what is included, the teachers are not going to do it. They don't have time. The children don't have time. They have to get through the material in the textbooks and the curriculum. ABeka Books leaves no room for creativity.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

yes! i felt like i could do without the TM as well… although the Abeka sales rep was totally against the idea. But I didn't see anything in the language workbook or the cursive workbook that needed a TM. She did mention that all creative writing and composition assignments were in the TM so that is something to consider...

Good to know! We use something else entirely for writing so the creative writing assignments wouldn't be too much of an issue for me. I am evaluating grammar and mechanics, and I wanted something that included diagramming. I am still waiting to see how MCT goes next year even though it does not include diagramming. Rod and Staff is so highly recommended, but it is so visually lacking that even I am having a hard time looking at it.

 

On a side note, while I find the curriculum guides well laid out, I dislike that so many subjects are combined into the same curriculum guide. That makes it harder to use just one A Beka subject. I am sure they believe their products all work well together, but still... They recently included their kindergarten math with all the phonics and reading in the same curriculum guide. That probably does make it easier for some kindergarten moms, but I just use the math. I am thankful I nabbed the old math guide and the older edition workbooks while they still had them.

[Ellie]

On a side note, while I find the curriculum guides well laid out, I dislike that so many subjects are combined into the same curriculum guide. That makes it harder to use just one A Beka subject. I am sure they believe their products all work well together, but still... They recently included their kindergarten math with all the phonics and reading in the same curriculum guide. That probably does make it easier for some kindergarten moms, but I just use the math. I am thankful I nabbed the old math guide and the older edition workbooks while they still had them.

 

It makes sense on the one hand, though, because there's one teacher's curriculum for all of "language arts" (the "curriculum" being different from an answer key for a specific workbook/text). It's just that most of the curriculum guides are not pertinent to homeschoolers, which again makes sense because ABeka books were written for the classroom, not for homeschoolers.

[fairfarmhand]

BJUP can be done very well without a TM, especially if you have a decent grammar background.