Palin's speech was....

[kokotg]

Well, he lists his community organizer experience on his official website and I'm pretty sure beauty queen is not on her resume. That just happens to be a fact about her.

 

Besides, my point in this particular post is not about his level of experience. It is about the fact that her statement was NOT about other community organizers and whether their work has merit or not. Her remarks were about the job of community organizer not being an indication of his ability to make executive decisions. People seem to be taking the remarks too personally, imo. She did not say anything at all about community organizers as a group. She was trying to make the distinction between that job (non-executive) to her experience as a mayor and a governor (both executive).

 

I think people talk about Obama being a community organizer so much because it speaks to his priorities as a young man. If, indeed, Palin was seeking to contrast his job as a community organizer with her experience as a mayor and governor, then I think she's being very disingenuous. The far more apt comparison is between her time as a mayor and governor and his time as a state and US Senator.

[Kathleen in VA]

Small town mayor... let's take a closer look at what this means.

 

According to the 2000 census- Wasilla's population of about 6,000 is 85% white.

 

The average household income in Wasilla is about $48,000, $53,000 for families.

 

In Wasilla, only 5.7% of families and only 9.6% of the population are living below the poverty line.

 

So, I do not doubt she had a lot of responsibilities and can understand the needs of the hockey mom crowd. But I doubt she can relate well to the moms who can't afford ice cubes in the same way a community organizer working in Chicago could.

 

I think people talk about Obama being a community organizer so much because it speaks to his priorities as a young man. If, indeed, Palin was seeking to contrast his job as a community organizer with her experience as a mayor and governor, then I think she's being very disingenuous. The far more apt comparison is between her time as a mayor and governor and his time as a state and US Senator.

 

I'm fine with both your takes on this. You do have valid observations. I only wanted to point out that Ms. Palin was not criticizing all community organizers - that is all. Whether or not she was able to convince anyone that her experience qualifies her more than his is for the people to decide. I just wanted to make it clear *why* she said what she said.

[Heather in Neverland]

I think people talk about Obama being a community organizer so much because it speaks to his priorities as a young man. If, indeed, Palin was seeking to contrast his job as a community organizer with her experience as a mayor and governor, then I think she's being very disingenuous. The far more apt comparison is between her time as a mayor and governor and his time as a state and US Senator.

 

I'm STILL waiting for someone to tell me why we (as in all people) keep comparing Obama and Palin? I thought it was McCain vs Obama for the presidential race? Maybe we should spend some time comparing those two instead??

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The far more apt comparison is between her time as a mayor and governor and his time as a state and US Senator.

 

Yes, I agree.

 

In which he still comes out as having senatorial/legislative experience and she as having executive experience. PTA vs. Community Organizer is more apt on the front end. And if she helped her husband run their fishing business (and I would need to know, verifiably, what her capacity was in the business), that could legitimately be contrasted on a parallel with his time as an attorney and constitutional law professor.

 

But even more legitimately, we need to be comparing Gov. Palin's experience with Sen. Biden's, her record to his. I mean, I know WHY this is happening, but still.

[Gailmegan]

I only wanted to point out that Ms. Palin was not criticizing all community organizers - that is all.

 

Let me remind you of the direct quote again:

 

 

I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a "community organizer," except that you have actual responsibilities.

 

She doesn't mention Obama directly or his lack of experience; she literally says that community organizers have no actual responsibilities.

[Gailmegan]

I'm STILL waiting for someone to tell me why we (as in all people) keep comparing Obama and Palin? I thought it was McCain vs Obama for the presidential race? Maybe we should spend some time comparing those two instead??

 

 

I can only speak for us here, and this thread is about Palin's speech and in that speech she compared herself to Obama.

[Elaine]

Palin's ridicule is unprofessional and cruel, contradictory to what her party claims it wants from people, and, imo, is indicative of an underlying attitude that the Republican party has about poor people.

 

Tara

 

 

What underlying attitude about poor people? I am a "poor people."

[Heather in Neverland]

I can only speak for us here, and this thread is about Palin's speech and in that speech she compared herself to Obama.

 

Exactly. Which is why I asked the question both times...why is anyone (including Palin and Obama and the media, etc.) drawing these apples to oranges comparisons? Doesn't it seem kind of beside the point? Where are the Obama/McCain comparisons...you know, the ones that actually mean something?

[kokotg]

Exactly. Which is why I asked the question both times...why is anyone (including Palin and Obama and the media, etc.) drawing these apples to oranges comparisons? Doesn't it seem kind of beside the point? Where are the Obama/McCain comparisons...you know, the ones that actually mean something?

 

Well, I think we've been getting those from both sides ever since it became clear Obama was going to be the nominee. I agree the Palin/Obama comparisons are being overdone, but, well, she's new. And apparently no one's interested in talking about poor Joe Biden at all :).

[Kathleen in VA]

Let me remind you of the direct quote again:

 

 

 

 

She doesn't mention Obama directly or his lack of experience; she literally says that community organizers have no actual responsibilities.

 

And again, let me remind you that I previously posted that she wasn't trying to say that community organizers have no responsibilities. She meant they do not have to make executive decisions - no EXECUTIVE responsibilities. I'm really not getting what is so hard about this. It seems fairly obvious to me that a community organizer would have responsibilities. It seems silly to me to think she was trying to say something as lame as community organizers have no responsibilities.

 

:banghead:

 

ETA: Here are two of the Oxford English Dictionary's definitions of responsibility:

 

 

Dictionary

responsibility |riˌspänsəˈbilətē|

noun ( pl. -ties)

 

• the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something : the group has claimed responsibility for a string of murders.

 

• (often responsibilities) a thing that one is required to do as part of a job, role, or legal obligation : he will take over the responsibilities of overseas director.

 

I'm thinking the second one describes what a community organizer would be called on to do as a responsibility. I liken that to tasks that need to be accomplished.

 

The first one is the one Ms. Palin was referring to. She meant having to take the blame if it doesn't go as well as you'd hoped.

 

I'm hoping this helps clear her meaning up a bit.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

She meant they do not have to make executive decisions - no EXECUTIVE responsibilities.

 

Which is, in itself, a bunch of hooey IMO.

[Elaine]

Here is a description for a Community Organizer:

 

Job Description

Community Organizer

Develops and coordinates programs designed to promote the organization and its services to the community and the target population. Promotes activities and services through various forms of media. May be responsible for the recruiting, interviewing, hiring, training, and scheduling of volunteer workers. May require a bachelor's degree in area of specialty and 0-2 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Familiar with standard concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field. Relies on limited experience and judgment to plan and accomplish goals. Performs a variety of tasks. Works under general supervision. A certain degree of creativity and latitude is required. Typically reports to a supervisor or manager.

 

 

And here is the website that its from.

[Kathleen in VA]

Which is, in itself, a bunch of hooey IMO.

 

Like I said before, make of it what you will, but it would be nice if she could be taken for her true meaning and not have it distorted.

[Gailmegan]

Which is, in itself, a bunch of hooey IMO.

 

And it isn't what she said. Remember this was scripted. The words were "actual responsibility" not "executive responsibility". The speech writers chose those words intentionally and she approved them.

 

Here's a link from TIME magazine regarding the issue:

 

 

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/what_a_community_organizer_doe.html

[Kathleen in VA]

And it isn't what she said. Remember this was scripted. The words were "actual responsibility" not "executive responsibility". The speech writers chose those words intentionally and she approved them.

 

Here's a link from TIME magazine regarding the issue:

 

 

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/what_a_community_organizer_doe.html

 

 

Check out the definitions of responsibility in my post above. The word can have more than one meaning without a qualifier.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Check out the definitions of responsibility in my post above. The word can have more than one meaning without a qualifier.

 

As someone with tons of experience, I would expect her to be able to relate to the way the average American would use the word.

[Gailmegan]

Check out the definitions of responsibility in my post above. The word can have more than one meaning without a qualifier.

 

 

But she used a qualifier: "actual". Very telling!

[Kathleen in VA]

As someone with tons of experience, I would expect her to be able to relate to the way the average American would use the word.

 

Well, I understood her.

 

ETA: What I don't understand is how anyone could think she actually thought community organizers have no responsibilities in the sense of tasks to accomplish. Wouldn't she have to be an utter moron to suppose that were true. I really doubt she got elected to mayor, governor and now chosen as a vp pick by being a moron. This whole discussion just makes me think that people who do not like her just hear what they want to hear.

[TXMomof4]

Let me remind you of the direct quote again:

 

 

 

 

She doesn't mention Obama directly or his lack of experience; she literally says that community organizers have no actual responsibilities.

 

oh please.

And he was saying that a small town mayor was never qualified for VP.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Wouldn't she have to be an utter moron to suppose that were true.

 

No, she is speaking to her base. A base that is comprised of a lot of people who think that poor people are only poor because of their own choices, and that welfare is an "entitlement".

 

I really doubt she got elected to mayor, governor and now chosen as a vp pick by being a moron. This whole discussion just makes me think that people who do not like her just hear what they want to hear.

I don't think the people who elected her are morons. The people who elected her were predominately white people who live above the poverty line. They elected someone they felt represented their interests.

[Haiku]

This whole discussion just makes me think that people who do not like her just hear what they want to hear.

 

I don't dislike her. I don't know her at all. I am in the process of forming my opinions on McCain and Palin. I am an Obama supporter but I am fully aware of the possibility that he may not win and that McCain/Palin will be in leadership. I don't want to dislike them. I want to have positive feelings about the leaders of my country.

 

I understood very well the point that Palin was (overtly) trying to make. I think she was snarky about a comparison that is (as has been elaborated upon here in this thread) meaningless and I think that the fact that she was willing to say what she said in the manner in which she said it is indicative of something deeper than what it appears to be on the surface. I am not moronic enough to think that Sarah Palin thinks that community organization is a job with "zero" ("Zero! Zero! Zero!") responsibilities. I do, however, believe that what she said and how she said it belies a contempt for a certain segment of our population and also a contempt for those who would waste their time on those people rather than pursuing more "meaningful" (read: financially lucrative) positions.

 

I was disappointed in Sarah Palin's speech because her attitude and her choice of wording throughout the speech was, to me, mean-spirited.

 

For the record, I thought McCain's speech was inspiring (as cliche' as that word is) and I feel that he is fully capable of handling the job of president. I just disagree with many of his strategies.

 

Tara

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I think something that people seem to be leaving out is that Palin was not the first or only person to mock the position of community organizer that night. It was a calculated move by the PARTY, not by Palin herself. She was simply saying what they told her to say.

[Kathleen in VA]

Then that is what she should have said. However, she did not say that. She instead chose to ridicule his work, and the contempt in her voice as she talked about this was shocking to me.

 

Tara

 

Well it didn't shock me that she responded to his attack on her mayorial experience. She wasn't attacking his work by the way. She was pointing out that being a community organizer does not require one to make executive decisions. She was not attacking what he accomplished as a community organizer - I'm not seeing that at all. I think she had every right to stand up to having been attacked for her mayorial experience, though. I heard no contempt for Obama the person - only for his choice to attack her when he hasn't got any executive experience himself and even then I would not characterize it as contempt, just sarcasm and rightly so.

[Saille]

Well, I understood her.

 

ETA: What I don't understand is how anyone could think she actually thought community organizers have no responsibilities in the sense of tasks to accomplish. Wouldn't she have to be an utter moron to suppose that were true. I really doubt she got elected to mayor, governor and now chosen as a vp pick by being a moron. This whole discussion just makes me think that people who do not like her just hear what they want to hear.

 

Well, OK, but that's exactly the question I keep asking. And the answer I keep coming up with is that she is, at least, lacking in discernment. And that savvy/sly and intelligent are two different things.

 

Omitting the things that have been discussed to death since you posted this, here's my reply, at last:

 

A good link, including his voting record:

 

http://obamasresume.org/

 

Wasn't that Obama who was making fun of the folks in Scranton, PA?

Here is what Obama actually said:

 

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

 

This was very, very far from making fun. This was acknowledgement of a hardscrabble existence in which hard work is not enough to guarantee a comfortable life. Those examples are examples of things some people take to unhealthy extremes specifically because they are things they DO have control over, things that become even more important to them when they have felt disenfranchised for a long time. Perhaps the word cling was not the best choice…cleave might have been better. But this was not said with a smirk, or a snigger. It was said in all seriousness and seemed to me to be an warning that you can’t blow off hardworking citizens indefinitely without negative consequences arising. I have never, ever heard Obama make fun of the American people, for any reason.

 

Why? What does Teddy Roosevelt have to do with it?

He was proof that you can be pro-business AND anti-trust. If he took a good look at the enormous corporations controlling our seed fertility, pushing small farmers out of business, etc., he’d be in there with his big stick faster than you…can…shake a stick? He was also a Republican conservationist (albeit of the big game hunter variety). Imagine that. Those aren’t the only reasons I want him, or his modern analog, right here, right now.

 

If schools were a free enterprise there would be a huge leap in their quality. With the money the taxpayers save by not having to pay for public schools they could send their child to whatever school suited them best. And like all post-secondary schools, even those who do not take federal money, they could offer scholarships to those who need them.

 

When I look at privatized health insurance, I have to disagree. I also think it would be the equivalent of letting the fox into the henhouse. Keeping free enterprise schools locally run would require a level of oversight I don’t believe those clamoring for it would provide, and regional or national “McSchools” would be the result. I’ve already had to pull Exxon’s slick environmental curriculum out of my mailbox, complain about having Coke machines outside the gymnasium, and petition against having fast food outlets in the cafeteria. Yes, people make their own choices, but children are impressionable, and in school they’re a captive audience. Bruit parental responsibility around all you like, it is irresponsible on a national level to risk allowing corporations to prioritize cradle-to-grave brand loyalty over an educated, prepared citizenry.

 

Oh, yeah, I'm privileged. I'm privileged to have a husband who is willing to work two blue collar jobs for the past 23 years so I can stay home and homeschool my children. My husband is a letter carrier and he cleans doctor's offices, including toilets (a real privilege, let me tell ya), 5 nights a week, 52 weeks a year, so I can stay home. We have had one vacation in our 23 years of marriage - and that was given to us by a relative. We drive ten year old cars, one of which is in the shop as I type because it didn't pass inspection last month. My house is 1000sf and there are seven of us living here. Yes, I am very privileged. Our family income is below average for our county so I almost know what it feels like to be an average American.

But this is my point! Why, when free enterprise as it is currently being defined creates such a disproportion in income, isn’t this situation at least up for discussion? Does a CEO seriously merit THAT much more pay than your dh, or the CEO’s employees? I’m not talking about all of us earning the same, I’m talking about a reasonable income curve rather than Mt. Everest…and then the rest of us. At some point, hard work is hard work no matter who is doing it, so we shouldn’t be making the slow slide back into feudalism.

 

I understand taking pride in frugality and homesteading ethic. I’m doing the same dance here, and I’m **** proud. But I think there’s this attitude of “Don’t do ME any favors!” that actually enables the haves who sneer at the have nots. It is not whining to say, “Wow, this isn’t working for us! I’d like to get to the root of this problem, and I expect my politicians to be on board with that!”

 

Well, I guess we'll never know if we don't ever give it a try. Maybe your fellow citizens would surprise you. Someone has to set the trend - why not us? Btw, I, for one, always make room for folks stuck in the lane that is ending. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

But that’s what I’m saying. We’ve given it a try, in multiple industries. It’s not working. AFA making room is concerned, yeah, me too. But I bet you’ve wondered sometimes where the heck all the cops are when people are driving like they’re playing Pole Position. That’s where I’m coming from.

 

I think Abraham Lincoln was a social climber now that you mention it.

Find me a quote in which Abraham Lincoln insults community organizing to serve his own ends, and I’ll agree he was a social climber.

[Kathleen in VA]

I think something that people seem to be leaving out is that Palin was not the first or only person to mock the position of community organizer that night. It was a calculated move by the PARTY, not by Palin herself. She was simply saying what they told her to say.

 

Again, the democrats calculated to attack her through the media all week. What was she supposed to do? Imagine the tables turned. Do you think the dems wouldn't have felt a need to set the record straight? C'mon, can we try to get real here for a minute or two. It was the RNC for crying out loud.

 

And why must this incessant claim that she was attacking the position of community organizer keep coming up. She was merely pointing out that that job title lacks executive experience. This was in RESPONSE to the dems harping on her "little town mayor" job, which is an executive position. Can we at least settle this one???????

[Haiku]

She was pointing out that being a community organizer does not require one to make executive decisions.

 

The, as you quoted me saying before, that is what she should have said. She didn't. She chose to say something else, and that is significant to me.

 

Tara

[Gailmegan]

Again, the democrats calculated to attack her through the media all week. What was she supposed to do? Imagine the tables turned. Do you think the dems wouldn't have felt a need to set the record straight? C'mon, can we try to get real here for a minute or two. It was the RNC for crying out loud.

 

And why must this incessant claim that she was attacking the position of community organizer keep coming up. She was merely pointing out that that job title lacks executive experience. This was in RESPONSE to the dems harping on her "little town mayor" job, which is an executive position. Can we at least settle this one???????

 

So now the Democrats control the media??? And setting the record straight about your own experience doesn't require attacking the validity of the responsibilities of community organizers.

 

Apparently we cannot settle this one. You are determined to read an intention that was not in her "actual" words. If that's what she meant, that's what she would have said. And what she actually, literally said is in fact untrue and demeaning. The fact that she was the mayor of a small town is true and not demeaning.

 

We all clearly view this issue coming from our own strong presuppositions. Sadly, I don't see us coming to agreement on this topic. So we can choose to respectfully disagree.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

It was the RNC for crying out loud.

 

Exactly. She said what she said the way she said it in order to "energize her base."

 

This was in RESPONSE to the dems harping on her "little town mayor" job, which is an executive position.

 

And I think that she could have responded without having made that comment.

 

Here are some of the "attacks" made on Palin by the Democrats that represent the content of most of the sound bites I've heard so far coming out of that party regarding her experience. None of it compares to the comment Palin and others made at the RNC.

 

Bill Burton: "Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. Governor Palin shares John McCain's commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade, the agenda of Big Oil and continuing George Bush's failed economic policies -- that's not the change we need, it's just more of the same."

 

Chuck Schumer: "After the great success of the Democratic convention, the choice of Sarah Palin is surely a Hail Mary pass. It is a real roll of the dice and shows how John McCain, Karl Rove et al realize what a strong position the Obama-Biden team and Democrats in general are in in this election. Certainly the choice of Palin puts to rest any argument about inexperience on the Democratic team and while Palin is a fine person, her lack of experience makes the thought of her assuming the presidency troubling. I particularly look forward to the Biden-Palin debate in Missouri."

[Kathleen in VA]

Well, OK, but that's exactly the question I keep asking. And the answer I keep coming up with is that she is, at least, lacking in discernment. And that savvy/sly and intelligent are two different things.

 

Omitting the things that have been discussed to death since you posted this, here's my reply, at last:

 

A good link, including his voting record:

 

http://obamasresume.org/

 

Here is what Obama actually said:

 

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.â€

 

This was very, very far from making fun. This was acknowledgement of a hardscrabble existence in which hard work is not enough to guarantee a comfortable life. Those examples are examples of things some people take to unhealthy extremes specifically because they are things they DO have control over, things that become even more important to them when they have felt disenfranchised for a long time. Perhaps the word cling was not the best choice…cleave might have been better. But this was not said with a smirk, or a snigger. It was said in all seriousness and seemed to me to be an warning that you can’t blow off hardworking citizens indefinitely without negative consequences arising. I have never, ever heard Obama make fun of the American people, for any reason.

 

He was proof that you can be pro-business AND anti-trust. If he took a good look at the enormous corporations controlling our seed fertility, pushing small farmers out of business, etc., he’d be in there with his big stick faster than you…can…shake a stick? He was also a Republican conservationist (albeit of the big game hunter variety). Imagine that. Those aren’t the only reasons I want him, or his modern analog, right here, right now.

 

When I look at privatized health insurance, I have to disagree. I also think it would be the equivalent of letting the fox into the henhouse. Keeping free enterprise schools locally run would require a level of oversight I don’t believe those clamoring for it would provide, and regional or national “McSchools†would be the result. I’ve already had to pull Exxon’s slick environmental curriculum out of my mailbox, complain about having Coke machines outside the gymnasium, and petition against having fast food outlets in the cafeteria. Yes, people make their own choices, but children are impressionable, and in school they’re a captive audience. Bruit parental responsibility around all you like, it is irresponsible on a national level to risk allowing corporations to prioritize cradle-to-grave brand loyalty over an educated, prepared citizenry.

 

But this is my point! Why, when free enterprise as it is currently being defined creates such a disproportion in income, isn’t this situation at least up for discussion? Does a CEO seriously merit THAT much more pay than your dh, or the CEO’s employees? I’m not talking about all of us earning the same, I’m talking about a reasonable income curve rather than Mt. Everest…and then the rest of us. At some point, hard work is hard work no matter who is doing it, so we shouldn’t be making the slow slide back into feudalism.

 

I understand taking pride in frugality and homesteading ethic. I’m doing the same dance here, and I’m **** proud. But I think there’s this attitude of “Don’t do ME any favors!†that actually enables the haves who sneer at the have nots. It is not whining to say, “Wow, this isn’t working for us! I’d like to get to the root of this problem, and I expect my politicians to be on board with that!â€

 

But that’s what I’m saying. We’ve given it a try, in multiple industries. It’s not working. AFA making room is concerned, yeah, me too. But I bet you’ve wondered sometimes where the heck all the cops are when people are driving like they’re playing Pole Position. That’s where I’m coming from.

 

Find me a quote in which Abraham Lincoln insults community organizing to serve his own ends, and I’ll agree he was a social climber.

 

Talk about erudite, lol.;) Well, you have given me much food for thought. I still don't like what he said about the folks in Scranton, no matter how much of the quote I read. It sounded condescending and rude to me. jmo.

 

I never knew that much about T. Roosevelt and the farm situation so that's interesting. I'll have to educate myself on that one.

 

But, PLEASE, can we please, please, please stop saying she criticized community organizers? PLEASE???? AAAAcccccccckkkkkkk!!!!!!!!! (Please see my previous posts on this. I can't type it again. Finger cramps.:D

 

As for the schools. Well, it would definitely have to be a gradual pull out - like pulling out of Iraq for instance. The deed is done - the schools should never have been in the government's hands and now that they've made a fine mess of it, it will be anything but easy to fix the problem. Just because it is difficult doesn't mean it should not be attempted. That is what I meant somewhere else in some other post some other day about the country going downhill after the Civil War because our country became more federally minded instead of locally minded. Should we just give up on ever getting it mended? Maybe it is naive and idealistic to think this way and I sure do see your point about businesses taking advantage of impressionable children. (I think the *government* is doing that now, fwiw.) I just can't see another "reform" doing anything but costing more money.

 

Thanks for the link. I'll check that out when my brain has had a time to rest. It's pretty much fried for now.

[Kathleen in VA]

So now the Democrats control the media??? And setting the record straight about your own experience doesn't require attacking the validity of the responsibilities of community organizers.

 

Apparently we cannot settle this one. You are determined to read an intention that was not in her "actual" words. If that's what she meant, that's what she would have said. And what she actually, literally said is in fact untrue and demeaning. The fact that she was the mayor of a small town is true and not demeaning.

 

We all clearly view this issue coming from our own strong presuppositions. Sadly, I don't see us coming to agreement on this topic. So we can choose to respectfully disagree.

 

I agree to disagree, but I can't let this go by without pointing out that she did say what she meant. Check out the definitions of "responsibility" - she used the one that means being held accountable. It does not require any other qualifier because that is what it means in and of itself.

[Gailmegan]

I agree to disagree, but I can't let this go by without pointing out that she did say what she meant. Check out the definitions of "responsibility" - she used the one that means being held accountable. It does not require any other qualifier because that is what it means in and of itself.

 

And once again, I will repeat my response to you on this exact point: She chose to use a qualifier, which did in fact demonstrate her intention! She used the word "actual".

 

ac·tu·al Audio Help/ˈæktʃuəl/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ak-choo-uhl]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–adjective 1.existing in act or fact; real: an actual case of heroism; actual expenses. 2.existing now; present; current: The ship's actual position is 22 miles due east of Miami. 3.Obsolete. pertaining to or involving acts or action.

[Origin: 1275–1325; < LL āctuālis, equiv. to L āctu- (s. of action n. āctus; see act) + -ālis -al1; r. ME actuel < MF < L]

 

—Related forms ac·tu·al·ness, noun

 

—Synonyms 1. genuine, authentic, veritable. See real1.

—Antonyms 1. unreal, fictional.

 

 

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

 

So I agree with you that she said what she meant. And what she meant was quite demeaning.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

But, PLEASE, can we please, please, please stop saying she criticized community organizers? PLEASE???? AAAAcccccccckkkkkkk!!!!!!!!! (Please see my previous posts on this. I can't type it again. Finger cramps.:D

 

 

 

I can, but I will still reserve the right to say that Sen. Obama was derided for *his* work as a community organizer as opposed to actual experience that could have been derived from being, say, a mayor of a small town. Subtly by Gov. Palin, as a point to contrast her mayoral experience as having actual responsibility. But what made that comment stand out for me was that it followed close on Giuliani's leading the crowd in derisive laughter about Sen. Obama's community organizer experience (or its indication of his lack of experience in comparison).

 

I was just horrified by that part of his speech. Truly sickened at his sneers about this activity of helping which he did directly out of college. That's really the biggest reason *Gov. Palin's* comment jumped out at me. But that was just my own perception based on my own conditioning.

[Kathleen in VA]

So now the Democrats control the media??? And setting the record straight about your own experience doesn't require attacking the validity of the responsibilities of community organizers.

 

Apparently we cannot settle this one. You are determined to read an intention that was not in her "actual" words. If that's what she meant, that's what she would have said. And what she actually, literally said is in fact untrue and demeaning. The fact that she was the mayor of a small town is true and not demeaning.

 

We all clearly view this issue coming from our own strong presuppositions. Sadly, I don't see us coming to agreement on this topic. So we can choose to respectfully disagree.

 

Well, it's not like the democrats control the media in a "they're getting paid by the DNC to smear the Republicans" kind of way. It's more like they control the media (the liberal media, that is) because they are ALL Democrats. What else are Democrats going to say about Republicans? They certainly aren't going to praise them and call attention to all their worthy accomplishments.

 

And she wasn't attacking the responsibilities of community organizers. Check the definition of "responsibility" (I think I'm in a repeating nightmare:D) - she was saying that a community organizer's job description is not an executive, "take the fall for anything that goes wrong," kind of position. Being a mayor is.

[Kathleen in VA]

And once again, I will repeat my response to you on this exact point: She chose to use a qualifier, which did in fact demonstrate her intention! She used the word "actual".

 

 

 

So I agree with you that she said what she meant. And what she meant was quite demeaning.

 

She meant actual accountability not actual tasks to accomplish. So yes, she did say what she meant.:D

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

It's more like they control the media (the liberal media, that is) because they are ALL Democrats.

 

Puzzled here. But agreeing that I'm not likely to be enlightened sufficiently to change into anything else.

[kokotg]

 

But, PLEASE, can we please, please, please stop saying she criticized community organizers? PLEASE???? AAAAcccccccckkkkkkk!!!!!!!!! (Please see my previous posts on this. I can't type it again. Finger cramps.:D

 

 

 

Well, I don't think we're going to make any more progress in coming to an agreement, at any rate. Which is fine, really :).

 

Re: the clinging to guns, etc. thing. This is a restatement of a sentiment that's been very popular in Democratic politics over the past few years, that the Republican strategy has long been to get people to vote against their economic self interest by playing up "wedge" issues like gun control and abortion. What's the Matter with Kansas? is the book that lays it out (although I haven't read it (it's still sitting on my shelf ;)), so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying the argument). Now, I think there are legitimate criticisms of this idea. For one thing, it ignores the fact that wealthy liberals ALSO vote against their economic self interest, and no one thinks this is because the Democrats are tricking them into it. It also dismisses the importance of voting for your "values." Personally, I feel like the better approach is pointing out that it's not either/or (economics OR values). Economic issues, poverty issues ARE values issues. War IS a values issue. We can disagree about the values and about the issues, but it's wrong to suggest that voting for economic policy or foreign policy can't be every bit as much a "values" vote as voting on abortion or gun control.

 

I would point out, also, that Obama's formulation of it seems to me actually to be much less cynical than its usual incarnation. He's not saying people vote on these wedge issues because they've been duped, but because their government has failed them, and they feel like these are the areas in which they can still have some sort of power and control.

[Gailmegan]

She meant actual accountability not actual tasks to accomplish. So yes, she did say what she meant.:D

 

But once again, that is NOT what she said. (And even if it were, that's not true either). The reason I refuse to let this go is because I am an English professor at a local college. I teach freshman writing. And I teach my students to choose the right words for their intended meaning. when you break down the "actual" words that Sarah Palin spoke, there is no denying that she was in fact putting down community organizers. Her speech writers were fully aware of the words they chose and the implications of those words, as is anyone who knows how to write effectively.

 

You may choose to find a less cynical interpretation, but you cannot deny the literal meaning of the words she spoke.

[RenayofRohan]

I believe that God can raise up leaders, yes.

 

But it makes me cringe when anyone on either side of the political fence presumes to know the will of God for our country politically.

 

For me, a big part of "walking humbly with your God" is being willing to at least consider the possibility that we have it all wrong and that the world looks very different from God's eyes.

 

I never proposed that I KNOW the mind of God in all things political. I used the words "I believe" in my original statement in regards to Palin, you know, as in opinion. I thought that's what this forum is for ~ to express opinions. Isn't that what you all are doing here? :D

[Kathleen in VA]

Well, I don't think we're going to make any more progress in coming to an agreement, at any rate. Which is fine, really :).

 

Re: the clinging to guns, etc. thing. This is a restatement of a sentiment that's been very popular in Democratic politics over the past few years, that the Republican strategy has long been to get people to vote against their economic self interest by playing up "wedge" issues like gun control and abortion. What's the Matter with Kansas? is the book that lays it out (although I haven't read it (it's still sitting on my shelf ;)), so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying the argument). Now, I think there are legitimate criticisms of this idea. For one thing, it ignores the fact that wealthy liberals ALSO vote against their economic self interest, and no one thinks this is because the Democrats are tricking them into it. It also dismisses the importance of voting for your "values." Personally, I feel like the better approach is pointing out that it's not either/or (economics OR values). Economic issues, poverty issues ARE values issues. War IS a values issue. We can disagree about the values and about the issues, but it's wrong to suggest that voting for economic policy or foreign policy can't be every bit as much a "values" vote as voting on abortion or gun control.

 

I would point out, also, that Obama's formulation of it seems to me actually to be much less cynical than its usual incarnation. He's not saying people vote on these wedge issues because they've been duped, but because their government has failed them, and they feel like these are the areas in which they can still have some sort of power and control.

 

I'll check into that book. You're a good sport. This has been downright fun.:) Ftr, I am no political expert (bet you already figured that out;)) so I really do need to do more reading and self-educating on all this.

 

For me, the bottom line is trust. I really and honestly don't trust either pair of candidates to get it right. I guess I just feel less like McCain/Palin will mess it up more than Obama/Biden will. That is absolutely just my opinion. It's not completely unfounded based on my personal belief system, but I don't think it would helpful to go into all that here. We all are entitled to our take on what they have laid before us. I would much rather that Ron Paul were the Republican candidate but that ship has sailed.

 

Thankfully, I don't put my ultimate trust in any man or woman, but in God and that does provide a great amount of comfort given the whole situation. You guys have been great, but I'm all out of steam. Hugs to you all for putting up with me.

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, it's not like the democrats control the media in a "they're getting paid by the DNC to smear the Republicans" kind of way. It's more like they control the media (the liberal media, that is) because they are ALL Democrats. What else are Democrats going to say about Republicans? They certainly aren't going to praise them and call attention to all their worthy accomplishments.

 

And she wasn't attacking the responsibilities of community organizers. Check the definition of "responsibility" (I think I'm in a repeating nightmare:D) - she was saying that a community organizer's job description is not an executive, "take the fall for anything that goes wrong," kind of position. Being a mayor is.

 

Outside the main three networks (very low ratings, who still watches them?) we have PBS (for being so liberal it has some great conservative talking heads like David Brooks), CNN (Glen Beck, Lou Dobbs, as well as a number of other conservative guests) Fox (lots of conservative talking heads as well as a few great liberal ones too). MSNBC is more left than the other cable networks, but they still have Tucker Carlson! Love that guy. Talk Radio is huge... not even a heart beat in the liberal camp to mention. Newspapers.. who reads those anymore? On-line, you can find any view point you wish and then some.

 

The idea that there is some grand liberal media conspiracy is as silly as the Clinton's saying they were being prosecuted by some grand conservative conspiracy.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Outside the main three networks (very low ratings, who still watches them?) we have PBS (for being so liberal it has some great conservative talking heads like David Brooks), CNN (Glen Beck, Lou Dobbs, as well as a number of other conservative guests) Fox (lots of conservative talking heads as well as a few great liberal ones too). MSNBC is more left than the other cable networks, but they still have Tucker Carlson! Love that guy. Talk Radio is huge... not even a heart beat in the liberal camp to mention. Newspapers.. who reads those anymore? On-line, you can find any view point you wish and then some.

 

The idea that there is some grand liberal media conspiracy is as silly as the Clinton's saying they were being prosecuted by some grand conservative conspiracy.

 

:iagree:

 

They have liberals on Fox News? (lol- JK):D

[Gailmegan]

Thankfully, I don't put my ultimate trust in any man or woman, but in God and that does provide a great amount of comfort given the whole situation. You guys have been great, but I'm all out of steam. Hugs to you all for putting up with me.

 

:iagree: There! We can end on a postive note! :D

[Jenny in Atl]

:iagree:

 

They have liberals on Fox News? (lol- JK):D

 

Yup! On Brett Hume's show and Media Watch both have some really good ones. Fox is not the total evil doer many like to make it out to be. Same with PBS. Both sides are so busy hating each other, they don't really listen.

[kokotg]

 

The idea that there is some grand liberal media conspiracy is as silly as the Clinton's saying they were being prosecuted by some grand conservative conspiracy.

 

ooh! maybe they're BOTH right! competing grand conspiracies! That would explain why each side is so utterly convinced they're right....

[Kathleen in VA]

Outside the main three networks (very low ratings, who still watches them?) we have PBS (for being so liberal it has some great conservative talking heads like David Brooks), CNN (Glen Beck, Lou Dobbs, as well as a number of other conservative guests) Fox (lots of conservative talking heads as well as a few great liberal ones too). MSNBC is more left than the other cable networks, but they still have Tucker Carlson! Love that guy. Talk Radio is huge... not even a heart beat in the liberal camp to mention. Newspapers.. who reads those anymore? On-line, you can find any view point you wish and then some.

 

The idea that there is some grand liberal media conspiracy is as silly as the Clinton's saying they were being prosecuted by some grand conservative conspiracy.

 

Hey, Jenny - thanks for all that info on news sources. I'll check into that. Fwiw, I don't remember mentioning anything about a conspiracy - I know I used the word controlled and I think I clarified what I meant by that later.

 

If a room is full of Democrats I don't expect them to be singing the praises of Republicans. I think the newsrooms of cable tv (by and large - not all, I'll grant you that) are filled with Democrats. There are tons of movie and tv personalities, including dear Oprah, who don't mind sharing their liberal perspectives whenever the opportunity arises as well. If they are on tv or any other screen, I consider that the media - it doesn't have to be a bona fide news outlet. That's really all I meant.

[sarahli]

 

Here is what Obama actually said:

 

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.â€

 

Thanks for expanding upon this oft misunderstood and misquoted line!

 

clinging to guns= 2nd amendment

clinging to religion= 1st amendment

 

Obama was trying to make an analogy that people cling to their rights and protections when things get tough and they feel threatened. The campaign staffer explained this on NPR and of course, the word choice could have been better; especially if it is ONLY going to be used out of context!

[Miss Sherry]

I need to find a link to her speech. There is probably one on youtube.

 

I have enjoyed seeing her family online. I find her to be very likeable.

 

She has caused me to be more interested in this election. Sorry if I missed it. Has there been a link to her speech posted ?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

And I thought it could not get any worse....

 

Palin is skeptic about global warming. In fact, she wrote to SUE the US government for listing polar bears as endangered species. She said that "We believe that the Service's decision to list the polar bear was not based on the best scientific and commercial data available." What an inconvenient truth!

 

:banghead:

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/999456/sarah_palin_plain_and_short_for_women.html?cat=9

[Kathleen in VA]

I need to find a link to her speech. There is probably one on youtube.

 

I have enjoyed seeing her family online. I find her to be very likeable.

 

She has caused me to be more interested in this election. Sorry if I missed it. Has there been a link to her speech posted ?

 

Here's a link to the transcript:

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94258995

[TeacherZee]

I need to find a link to her speech. There is probably one on youtube.

 

I have enjoyed seeing her family online. I find her to be very likeable.

 

She has caused me to be more interested in this election. Sorry if I missed it. Has there been a link to her speech posted ?

 

Check the major news channels. I watched them on msnbc's site. ETA: There isn't commentary on the video from the news channels. I know the commentary during the live feed annoyed some people.