Samples are up for W&R book 5!

[Clear Creek]

Samples (and a release date) are up for Writing & Rhetoric Book 5: Refutation & Confirmation. It looks good! I like the way it teaches revision to the student, by having them practice proofreading passages in the book before having them correct their own work.

[Maus]

Ooooo, thank you!

[rebbyribs]

Yay!  We just started Book 1 (Fable) this morning.  I like the chance to look forward a bit more in the series.  

[sbgrace]

Wow. Ok. Just when I had left Writing and Rhetoric...

[Hakg]

Yay!  We just started Book 1 (Fable) this morning.  I like the chance to look forward a bit more in the series.  

 

We started a couple of weeks ago also.  sbgrace, very curious why you decided to leave it?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, this does look good.  I love that they give a big sample, but I hate that it just covers the review lessons - I want to see one of the lessons that actually teaches refutation/confirmation! Is that too much to ask?

[Chrysalis Academy]

All right, Shannon and I decided that the W&R ship has sailed,as far as she is concerned.  But you guys keep us posted on how you like it, ok? If Morgan ever decides to do a writing curriculum again, we may be back around to this.

[crazyforlatin]

All right, Shannon and I decided that the W&R ship has sailed,as far as she is concerned. But you guys keep us posted on how you like it, ok? If Morgan ever decides to do a writing curriculum again, we may be back around to this.

What, what? You're going rogue on us.

[Chrysalis Academy]

:lol:   It's actually a good problem, as a rising 8th grader she is too far outside the scope of the program at this point. She'd be held back by writing such specific, structured essays on a limited set of topics.  It's great for learning essay writing, but she's spent the year learning to write a basic essay, and is ready to branch out more.

 

I still really like it W&R!  I almost want to get the next book just to see where it's going, but should probably save my investments for stuff my kids will actually need to use in the immediate future.

 

I hope Morgan will want to use W&R, but I'm learning - slowly and painfully - not to predict, and not to get attached to anything.  She is her own girl.

[Roadrunner]

I am also debating if we will buy the next level. I have love/hate relationship with Chreia. On one hand it is having him write essays, but I am not sure that style of writing is really what we want to pursue. We are going to get Blackbird essay guide and Galore English. It's our attempt to enter "modern" age. Part of me really wants to get the new level as well as get WWS, but I know realistically we can't accomplish all of it. 

[crazyforlatin]

:lol: It's actually a good problem, as a rising 8th grader she is too far outside the scope of the program at this point. She'd be held back by writing such specific, structured essays on a limited set of topics. It's great for learning essay writing, but she's spent the year learning to write a basic essay, and is ready to branch out more.

 

I still really like it W&R! I almost want to get the next book just to see where it's going, but should probably save my investments for stuff my kids will actually need to use in the immediate future.

 

I hope Morgan will want to use W&R, but I'm learning - slowly and painfully - not to predict, and not to get attached to anything. She is her own girl.

No, no, for sure Shannon is beyond WR5 based on samples you've posted. I just received a much older edition of Writing with a Thesis and now understand a little more about how you are teaching her. It's still beyond what DD can do, but I need to educate myself and breathe in what Rose is breathing. :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

I  :001_wub: that book! We're diving back into it full steam on Monday.  And on my reading stack? Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition.  Just to get me ready for whatever comes next!!

[Clear Creek]

:lol:   It's actually a good problem, as a rising 8th grader she is too far outside the scope of the program at this point. She'd be held back by writing such specific, structured essays on a limited set of topics.  It's great for learning essay writing, but she's spent the year learning to write a basic essay, and is ready to branch out more.

 

I still really like it W&R!  I almost want to get the next book just to see where it's going, but should probably save my investments for stuff my kids will actually need to use in the immediate future.

 

I hope Morgan will want to use W&R, but I'm learning - slowly and painfully - not to predict, and not to get attached to anything.  She is her own girl.

 

I am only planning on using book 5 with my younger daughter; I already bought Writing the Classical Way for my older daughter so she can finish the remaining levels of the progym in 8th grade. She will be using the Medieval workbook, which has much more mature models of writing (such as Shakespeare) than the W&R books.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, I have Writing the Classical Way too. I agree it's much better for 7th/8th graders than W&R is. I keep trying to decide whether to kind of mush it together with Writing With a Thesis, or to use it first, or use it after, or just skip it. IDK.  I'm hoping Horner will help me figure out where I want to go next.  Tentative plan is WwaT and the They Say/I Say, but I do keep eyeing Writing the Classical Way . . . . 

[Aloha2U]

All right, Shannon and I decided that the W&R ship has sailed,as far as she is concerned.  But you guys keep us posted on how you like it, ok? If Morgan ever decides to do a writing curriculum again, we may be back around to this.

 

Well, you're not alone in jumping ship at this time. My little man would like to continue with W&R Book 5 next year, especially after looking at the sample, but I think it's time to veer back to WWS 1 after W&R Book 4: Chreia & Proverb, so that's what we'll be doing next year for 6th grade. 

 

Honestly, I remember WWS 1 looking much more intimidating the last time I'd picked it up, though that was some time ago. We're definitely ready for it now.

 

 

 

ETA: No one saw that typo, right?  :blink:  

[MamaSprout]

Thanks for posting this. I'm still debating staying with this series. Would it be possible to compact or skip Chreia and go to the new level with older (6th-9th grade) students? I was going to supplement Chreia to include things that are in Book 5. They've used W&R since Fable.

 

Or maybe it's time to move on to something else. They seem to like the series, though.

[sbgrace]

We started a couple of weeks ago also.  sbgrace, very curious why you decided to leave it?

 

Chreia. I was using it in 5th grade. The assignments themselves, on the surface, look appropriate for the grade. But the thinking involved was an unnecessary slog/struggle, beginning with the sayings selected. I was having to hand hold a lot. And then, for the effort, we were doing the exact same thing, writing wise, week in and out. So it was a lot of work for what felt like no growth. It's been my least favorite W and R level by far. But I picked it back up last week. I'm intrigued by the description for book 5.

[8filltheheart]

Just throwing it out there, Rose, but why not try closing ALL of the writing curriculum books and simply let Shannon write and talk to her about about the specific skills demonstrated in her writing?

 

Horner is great. I love it. I am actually almost finished going through it again, this time with my 10th grader. We don't use it as a writing curriculum, per se. We use it to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the examples presented. Seriously, students do not always need a writing curriculum to help them become good writers. Sometimes all they need is to write with instruction on how to revise and improve. Writing programs can actually inhibit progress bc the student isn't progressing in his own strengths while focusing in on improving his own weaknesses. The writing topics being covered might be completely off base for what that student needs to develop. Being educated as teacher about what needs to be improved.....that is a far better use for writing curriculum. Then, your role as teacher becomes using that knowledge to focus on what does need editing and zooming in on those skills for teaching.

 

Try breaking free....you just might love it. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Excellent advice, as always, 8!  That's pretty much what we've done this year - she has worked through Lively Art of Writing, but most of her writing has been "investigations" - essays drawing from multiple sources - from her history program, or writing about books & movies we've discussed.  It has been great, and her writing has improved so much!   My thoughts on curricula at this point are to do more or less what SWB describes in her High School writing lectures: to work through a rhetoric book, and then to do writing across the curriculum.

 

 I do think she will benefit from looking at the different types of essays, which is why I think Writing with a Thesis will be excellent - it's a slim text, with chapters on examples, process, comparison and contrast, cause & effect, division and classification, definition, and argumentation, and is filled with nice model essays, which really seems to help her see how to apply the lessons.  I think we'll use this as a read and discuss, analyze the examples, and write a representative essay of that type, using a topic from another curriculum area.  Kind of how you are describing using Horner with your 10th grader! Horner is way over her head at this point, but I'm reading it for my own edification (at your suggestion).  So when I say I'm looking for what's next, it's more that I'm looking for what rhetoric text is next in difficulty/progression for us to work through in what order.  I think I'm done with curricula for this child, just appreciating what we both can learn from excellent college-level writing texts.

 

ETA:  I'm committing to *not* trying to use Writing the Classical Way!  Rhetoric texts, here we come!

[Chrysalis Academy]

Chreia. I was using it in 5th grade. The assignments themselves, on the surface, look appropriate for the grade. But the thinking involved was an unnecessary slog/struggle, beginning with the sayings selected. I was having to hand hold a lot. And then, for the effort, we were doing the exact same thing, writing wise, week in and out. So it was a lot of work for what felt like no growth. It's been my least favorite W and R level by far. But I picked it back up last week. I'm intrigued by the description for book 5.

 

Bingo.  This was my feeling about Chreia, exactly.  It requires very high-level thinking, about some fairly obscure and difficult to understand sayings, but then the writing task was pretty monotonous.

 

 FWIW, I also found it the most religious of the texts, in the sense that some of the sayings you are asked to praise are explicitly Christian in nature.  I realize that they are from the middle ages in Europe, a time when religion was central, but the nature of the assignment - to praise a person using a specific saying - meant that you have to engage with the saying as a piece of rhetoric, rather than just seeing it as a piece of literature.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks for posting this. I'm still debating staying with this series. Would it be possible to compact or skip Chreia and go to the new level with older (6th-9th grade) students? I was going to supplement Chreia to include things that are in Book 5. They've used W&R since Fable.

 

Or maybe it's time to move on to something else. They seem to like the series, though.

 

Sure, especially with that age of student.  Just go through the book and pick out two or three of the sayings that you think will appeal to the kid and just have them do a few essays.  Of course, it's expensive if you use it like that . . . But that was my original idea before we decided to just move on.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, you're not alone in jumping ship at this time. My little man would like to continue with W&R Book 5 next year, especially after looking at the sample, but I think it's time to veer back to WWS 1 after W&R Book 4: Chreia & Proverb, so that's what we'll be doing next year for 6th grade. 

 

Honestly, I remember WWS 1 looking much more intimating the last time I'd picked it up, though that was some time ago. We're definitely ready for it now.

 

I was wondering what you had decided to do!  Good luck with WWS.  I agree, I think you will find it less daunting after the great essays he has written using Chreia!

[MamaSprout]

Sure, especially with that age of student.  Just go through the book and pick out two or three of the sayings that you think will appeal to the kid and just have them do a few essays.  Of course, it's expensive if you use it like that . . . But that was my original idea before we decided to just move on.

 

I'm thinking of switching to Killgallon as the modeling approach works for this group. We'd have time to do some literature. I'm not sure where I'd start, though.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Shannon got a lot out of Grammar for Middle School.  I noticed the transfer of better style/more varied sentences to her writing pieces right away.  I am going to have her work through Paragraphs for Middle School too.  And there is a new Nonfiction for High School book that looks interesting.  I like these products, they are independent and take very little time, but you do see very specific and immediate improvements in writing style.  That where I think the modelling approach has the most power.

[Aloha2U]

Thanks for posting this. I'm still debating staying with this series. Would it be possible to compact or skip Chreia and go to the new level with older (6th-9th grade) students? I was going to supplement Chreia to include things that are in Book 5. They've used W&R since Fable.

 

Or maybe it's time to move on to something else. They seem to like the series, though.

 

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant about jumping ship at this time. It is still quite possible that during our redirect back to WWS that we may indulge ourselves with sprinkling in W&R Book 5+ from time to time. We're not moving on to something else but, rather, veering back to our initial path—WWE and WWS.

[Aloha2U]

Chreia. I was using it in 5th grade. The assignments themselves, on the surface, look appropriate for the grade. But the thinking involved was an unnecessary slog/struggle, beginning with the sayings selected. I was having to hand hold a lot. And then, for the effort, we were doing the exact same thing, writing wise, week in and out. So it was a lot of work for what felt like no growth. It's been my least favorite W and R level by far. But I picked it back up last week. I'm intrigued by the description for book 5.

 

I have to say that we've had quite a different experience with Chreia. Admittedly, I had my doubts in the beginning of the book due to what I also thought may be an unnecessary struggle, hand-holding and such, but through our coaching and cheerleading, and my little man's diligence, something just clicked for him and he rose to the challenge. Through each challenge his abilities are continually stretched, and yet he still enjoys writing. I have seen him grow so much so with W&R—though differently from WWE—that that is what made the decision to veer back to WWS next year such a hard one. We (little man, dh, and I) weighed the options together with two-thirds in favor of WWS, though the majority may end up making a concession to the opposing side—offering W&R Book 5 as a summer course—if my little man has much more to say about it. And he does. Lol!  :laugh: Book 4 has been his favorite thus far.

[Aloha2U]

Bingo.  This was my feeling about Chreia, exactly.  It requires very high-level thinking, about some fairly obscure and difficult to understand sayings, but then the writing task was pretty monotonous.

 

 FWIW, I also found it the most religious of the texts, in the sense that some of the sayings you are asked to praise are explicitly Christian in nature.  I realize that they are from the middle ages in Europe, a time when religion was central, but the nature of the assignment - to praise a person using a specific saying - meant that you have to engage with the saying as a piece of rhetoric, rather than just seeing it as a piece of literature.  

 

Actually, for us, the religious aspect is one of reasons why my little man enjoys Chreia. Engaging with each saying as a piece of rhetoric is what draws him, vs. just seeing them as a piece of literature. Isn't that the point? Rhetorical criticism/analysis puts the focus on what a piece of work does, not what it is.

 

The monotony was felt within the first few chapters, but once he got over an initial mountain of a learning curve—which he likened to the pilgrim's journey through the valley of the shadow of death (of learning to write)—the research and higher-level thinking required to complete each essay has only made him crave more of their teaching style and the saying/topics presented, because he's enjoying learning more about these saying/topics in the process, making writing more interesting and worthwhile to him. (Is that enough -ing words? Lol!)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Right, but I mention it because some prefer entirely secular materials, and we've discussed in the past to what extent W&R qualifies. So I mention my own impression of it for the benefit of those who might be wanting to engage with the rhetoric on a different type of piece with their young kids.  The Chreia "Learn how feeble is the power of earthly kings. None is worthy of the name of king but He whom heaven and earth and sea obey." would be challenging to engage with rhetorically for a 9 or 10 year old who is not also a Christian.  These sayings are hard enough to get their heads around without also grappling with their own beliefs or lack thereof in relation to the topic.

 

When Christian or Biblical material is presented as literature, it's easier for non-Christians to engage with than when it is presented as truth or value statements.  At least for this non-Christian!  So that's really all I'm trying to get at.

[MamaSprout]

Shannon got a lot out of Grammar for Middle School. I noticed the transfer of better style/more varied sentences to her writing pieces right away. I am going to have her work through Paragraphs for Middle School too. And there is a new Nonfiction for High School book that looks interesting. I like these products, they are independent and take very little time, but you do see very specific and immediate improvements in writing style. That where I think the modelling approach has the most power.

Is there something like Killgallon that transitions into essays?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Like Killgallon how? You mean with models from professional writers and explicit instruction?  

 

Obviously Killgallon doesn't "do" essays, but I'm trying to think about what are the essential components and how it would apply to essay writing.  You'd want model essays from professional writers along with breaking the essays down into the tools/parts and explicit instruction and practice with using the tools to build your own essays modelled on the samples.  Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

[MamaSprout]

Like Killgallon how? You mean with models from professional writers and explicit instruction?

 

Obviously Killgallon doesn't "do" essays, but I'm trying to think about what are the essential components and how it would apply to essay writing. You'd want model essays from professional writers along with breaking the essays down into the tools/parts and explicit instruction and practice with using the tools to build your own essays modelled on the samples. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

Yes.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, somebody needs to get on that!  :lol:

 

What I like about WWaT is that it has nice model essays from professional writers along with guidance to help your student analyze them and see what makes them work.  But it doesn't have the same kind of step-by-step, incremental, tools-based instructional model like Killgallon does.   I don't know, would that work for essays? I haven't looked closely at IEW, but one criticism I've seen is that you end up with very formulaic writing.  

 

Anyway, I don't know of anything like that.

[zarabellesmom]

Ok, question? I have been using W&R with my current fourth grader. If I didn't want to use Chreia, which I don't think I do, what would you use instead for a fifth grader who is at grade level. I'd like to see her write across the curriculum more but am clueless about starting that. I really need some hand holding.

[Roadrunner]

 I'd like to see her write across the curriculum more but am clueless about starting that. I really need some hand holding.

 

That's my situation. I would love to hear what "writing across curriculum" in science and history would look like at this stage. We write summaries, but I think it's not enough anymore. 

[sbgrace]

Ok, question? I have been using W&R with my current fourth grader. If I didn't want to use Chreia, which I don't think I do, what would you use instead for a fifth grader who is at grade level. I'd like to see her write across the curriculum more but am clueless about starting that. I really need some hand holding.

 

I described in this post how I'm using Writing With a Thesis for my 5th graders. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542819-would-someone-be-willing-to-give-me-advice-about-wws1/?p=6208474We studied caves recently. We wrote example paragraphs (examples of animals that live in caves) and process paragraphs (how caves are formed). Much of history and science lend themselves to the types of essays described in that book. I mention specifics in the thread, but I'm using age appropriate material in periodicals (Scholastic and Cricket primarily) to analyze for style and structure.

[Aloha2U]

Writing & Rhetoric Book 5: Refutation & Confirmation was released today! CAP is offering a 20% discount—WR5NEW—on all W&R levels through April 15th!

 

[MamaSprout]

I'm finishing W&R 5 with a group of mostly 7th and 8th graders, and I think they are ready to move on from that series.

 

I'm eyeing WWS 2 for spring, maybe just the first 9 weeks, which goes through writing a composition with research. They are solid on writing a sequential narration, and have decent outlining skills (but could use some direct instruction for more complicated ones). We could continue with the rest of the book in the fall.

 

Would this work? I think there are some on this thread who are familiar with both programs.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I would think so, that sounds like a doable plan. I once put out there the idea of skipping WWS1 altogether and still think it could work well for students who are solid with Narrative and Descriptive writing and who can at least do 1-level outlines.  W&R focuses a lot on those types of writing in the early books, so that sounds like a totally reasonable transition plan.