We like CLE LA, except...

[alisoncooks]

...we use a different spelling.

...and my DD prefers Pentime for handwriting.

...and we don't need quite as much repetition.

And And And. ;)

 

We like:

the grammar portions, the gentle, bite-sized instruction -- it's been perfect for my struggling reader.

the aesthetics of CLE LA (just a little color, sweet drawings, pretty calm overall).

workbooks that are open-and-go.

 

 

Is there something similar that is JUST GRAMMAR, that offers some review and is still gentle?

[MeAndTheBoys]

...we use a different spelling.

...and my DD prefers Pentime for handwriting.

...and we don't need quite as much repetition.

And And And. ;)

 

We like:

the grammar portions, the gentle, bite-sized instruction -- it's been perfect for my struggling reader.

the aesthetics of CLE LA (just a little color, sweet drawings, pretty calm overall).

workbooks that are open-and-go.

 

 

Is there something similar that is JUST GRAMMAR, that offers some review and is still gentle?

Rod and Staff is nearly parallel.  We used R&S for grades 2, 3, and 4.  Then my youngest was getting CRAZY at home, toddler, so I needed to streamline my older boys--so we switched to CLE for 5 and (currently) 6.  (Those are my oldest's grade levels; DS2 is one year behind).

 

DS2 is getting overwhelmed by the sheer number of pages in an LA 500 lesson--the material is fairly easy for him, but the workbook, which started out so helpful, is becoming a burden.  And he struggles in spelling, so I think we need to separate that out.  PLUS the cost of using CLE LA 700, 600 and 200 next year, plus CLE Math 200 and 600, plus CLE Reading 200, 600 and 800, plus CLE Bible 600--i added up all of those LUs and the cost is PAINFUL.

 

So we are going to switch back to Rod and Staff grammar.  I really liked it when we used it before, and it covers the same material.

 

There is a little blurb for each lesson in the Teacher's Manual called "Oral Review"; if you spend 3-5 minutes each day going over that, you get the same kind of review that CLE works into their lessons.

 

It is a high-quality program--and you can reuse the text books :)

 

B

[alisoncooks]

Rod and Staff is nearly parallel. [....]

 

DS2 is getting overwhelmed by the sheer number of pages in an LA 500 lesson--the material is fairly easy for him, but the workbook, which started out so helpful, is becoming a burden. [....]

 

B

I was wondering if R&S would have that same *feel*. And yes, the number of pages is causing grumbling here, especially since we use CLE Reading and tend to do them back-to-back.

[MeAndTheBoys]

I was wondering if R&S would have that same *feel*. And yes, the number of pages is causing grumbling here, especially since we use CLE Reading and tend to do them back-to-back.

 

there are samples at Milestone Ministries website http://www.milestonebooks.com/list/Rod_and_Staff_Curriculum/. 

 

I didn't notice in the beginning that your oldest would just be doing Grade 3 next year--at that age, a workbook is somewhat easier--part of why we switched from R&S 3 and 4 into CLE 4 and 5 in 2013.  BUT really, when we did R&S at earlier ages, we did a lot orally, or I would set up the paper for my boys--number it out and show them exactly where to write it, and it wasn't a big deal.

 

We will stick with CLE Math 600 and CLE Reading 600 for one son next year, and do R&S English 6, R&S Spelling 6, and R&S Bible 6;

We will do Saxon Alg II, and CLE Reading 800 for another son, and do R&S English 7, R&S Spelling 7, and R&S Bible 6 (I have liked having them do CLE Bible together, simpler grading--so my oldest goes "down' a grade);

We will do CLE LA 200, CLE Reading 200 and CLE Math 200 with the youngest; no R&S for him, but I"ll prob put him in R&S English 3 in 3rd grade if all goes well, since I already have it.

 

You can find the textbooks fairly reasonably on ebay or homeschool classifieds if you want to check R&S English out.  I know Susan Wise Bauer recommends it too, so there are a lot of threads on here.  It's not QUITE as cozy as CLE, but still very, very sweet.

 

ETA--when are other people going to reply, lol??  I hate to give you the only suggestion :)

 

B

[3andme]

Saxon (aka Hake) Grammar and Writing is a good substitue. It has the spiral review of CLE and clearly defined daily lessons. I originally tried it for the same reasons you indicated. We had used CLE for several years but the spelling was too challenging, we didn't always do the handwriting and we're not religious. I liked Hake but  didn't feel the layout and explanations were quite as nice as CLE so we're taking a break right now from Grammar until I can decide which direction to go in. 

[Mommy22alyns]

Rod & Staff.  I did a year of CLE LA in first grade, but I prefer R&S.  There are also worksheets available, which I always use.  You can also selectively assign problems - I never have them do it all.

[j_thurm]

Hi, Alison.  We use CLE LA for my child who is 6th grade.  We have used them since 2nd or 3rd grade with her.  She does it pretty much independently and does a great job.  It works for her and she knows more grammar probably than I ever was taught in school.  I just read the lesson/beginning part with her to refresh my mind, basically, and then she does it on her own.  I find it quite advanced and rigorous, in my opinion.  She doesn't do the handwriting but does everything else.  I am happy with it for her.  

 

My younger kids are going to be using Rod and Staff as we can sit together and do most of it orally.   I also really like Harcourt Flash Kids Spelling and their Language Arts.  They are workbooks and go through 6th grade I believe.  I will be adding in the Rod and Staff workbooks called Sentences (I believe that is the name) for my soon to be 5th grade child and then decide what to do with the younger kids at 7th grade.  

 

We also did 4th grade BJU English this year for one of my kids and liked that.  They rotate each unit between writing and grammar.  I didn't like that there was that break of writing and no grammar.  My child would have a difficult time remembering concepts without that built  in review.  CLE does a great job of review daily.  If you can work in some review or just be prepared for that slide of retention, if it happens, then you may like BJU English.  It doesn't cover spelling though.

 

Sorry if this is confusing!  We have struggled a bit too with LA!  Let me know if you have any questions I can help you with.

[alisoncooks]

Sorry if this is confusing! We have struggled a bit too with LA! Let me know if you have any questions I can help you with.

Thanks for taking the time to share all that info! :)

I have looked at the Flash Kids books, and they are good. I'm beginning to think that what I like the best about CLE is the systematic mechanics/usage teaching. That's what I need, the lessons on punctuation and all that.

[JaneEyre]

We use Rod & Staff and I just let them write in the book. It is still cheaper than CLE that way.

[alisoncooks]

Well, I showed DD the samples for R&S English and told her I was considering it for next year.

 

Her response: "Meh...I want to keep using the Language Arts I'm using now."

Me: "But...but...we don't use the spelling. Or the handwriting. And we skip so much of the review!"

Her: "That's okay. I like it."

 

 

*Sigh*

[MeAndTheBoys]

Well, I showed DD the samples for R&S English and told her I was considering it for next year.

 

Her response: "Meh...I want to keep using the Language Arts I'm using now."

Me: "But...but...we don't use the spelling. Or the handwriting. And we skip so much of the review!"

Her: "That's okay. I like it."

 

 

*Sigh*

 

Oh well, typical 8 year old response :)  My kids aren't thrilled with me switching from CLE to R&S either because they fear it will "take more time" or "be harder". The unknown is scary--  But for my grading sanity and sticker shock of doing 3 or 4 CLE subjects each with 3 children, they're just going to have to go with the flow :) and try it out.

 

I wouldn't write off changing just because of a comment, but do take her opinion into consideration.

 

B

 

[alisoncooks]

Since I'll be ordering Pentime from milestonebooks.com, I think I will go ahead and order R&S English -- then we can look at it in person before making a decision. DD is pretty rigid in some aspects -- resistant to change. She can say she "likes" something, but still grumbles daily when it is time to actually DO it. ;)

 

I'm wondering if we should go with R&S 3 or 4. We will complete CLE 2 this year.

 

Also, does R&S's writing instruction seem more complete/full than CLE's? Looking to supplement writing is what first prompted my research and desire for change...

[MeAndTheBoys]

Since I'll be ordering Pentime from milestonebooks.com, I think I will go ahead and order R&S English -- then we can look at it in person before making a decision. DD is pretty rigid in some aspects -- resistant to change. She can say she "likes" something, but still grumbles daily when it is time to actually DO it. ;)

 

I'm wondering if we should go with R&S 3 or 4. We will complete CLE 2 this year.

 

Also, does R&S's writing instruction seem more complete/full than CLE's? Looking to supplement writing is what first prompted my research and desire for change...

 

I would do R&S 3.  From our switch-over from R&S 3 into CLE 400, it was fairly parallel.

 

I have never used CLE LA 200--my son is in 100 now, and the olders started in 400 and 500.  R&S has writing similar to CLE LA--a book report here, a letter there, paragraph writing.  If you wanted to supplement CLE, you'll probably want to supplement R&S.  I did not supplement much before this year with R&S or CLE--we used Writing With Ease, but that's more narration.

 

We did add Apologia Jump In this year for my 5th and 6th graders

 

B

 

[SnMomof7]

We cross out spelling, and often penmanship in the higher grades. It's still worthwhile for us, since we have a large family and I need independent work texts :).

[lotsofpumpkins]

We are switching away from CLE LA next year; the 2nd and 3rd graders will use R&S. The olders will use Climbing to Good English. You can see samples at milestone books, though I bought mine at RR so I could get free shipping. CTGE is just grammar and writing, and similar to R&S except it's a workbook.

[Jasperstone]

...we use a different spelling.

...and my DD prefers Pentime for handwriting.

...and we don't need quite as much repetition.

And And And. ;)

 

We like:

the grammar portions, the gentle, bite-sized instruction -- it's been perfect for my struggling reader.

the aesthetics of CLE LA (just a little color, sweet drawings, pretty calm overall).

workbooks that are open-and-go.

 

 

Is there something similar that is JUST GRAMMAR, that offers some review and is still gentle?

You must be doing the younger years, as *gentle* is not an adjective to describe their grammar from grade 5 and up, imho. :-)

[Jasperstone]

What about Easy Grammar?

[MeAndTheBoys]

You must be doing the younger years, as *gentle* is not an adjective to describe their grammar from grade 5 and up, imho. :-)

 

CLE LA is sweet and precious and gentle in 100 and 200.  It's gentle in 300 and 400.  It's rigorous in 500 and up--but it's still your friend and not a mean taskmaster :) but I agree, gentle, probably not.

 

The lesson tone is so nice, but it does get awfully challenging--

 

B

[Mommy to monkeys]

...we use a different spelling.

...and my DD prefers Pentime for handwriting.

...and we don't need quite as much repetition.

And And And. ;)

 

We like:

the grammar portions, the gentle, bite-sized instruction -- it's been perfect for my struggling reader.

the aesthetics of CLE LA (just a little color, sweet drawings, pretty calm overall).

workbooks that are open-and-go.

 

 

Is there something similar that is JUST GRAMMAR, that offers some review and is still gentle?

I could have written most of this. . .except that the grammar is a bit tedious for us in level 600.

I've also used CTGE for quite awhile and RS very briefly.

The open and go of CLE is definitely a plus, but I feel like I spending an awful lot on something that I only use part of and that I won't be able to reuse for my other kids.

I've see sawed back and forth over the years with this.  If you discover the perfect solution, please let us know. ;)

[Another Lynn]

I'll throw out a couple dissenting thoughts regarding R&S and then R&S lovers can come and defend it.  :D  

 

1) Because R&S chapters mostly deal with one part of speech at a time, it is a very long time before the student is analyzing the entire sentence.  Forever, it seemed to me, the student is only diagramming the simple subject and the simple predicate.  I think we would call this parts to whole, and I think while understanding the "parts" is important, it was extremely frustrating to us to never get to the whole.  (Disclosure - I tried a couple different levels of R&S one year and did not complete them, so I'm not actually sure when a sentence is diagrammed in it's entirety.  We got tired of waiting for it.)

 

2) Because many users suggest that it's not necessary to do every exercise in the book, I then had additional decisions to make about how much we should do and how to use the text.  And what about my student who needs more practice than some?  She may have demonstrated understanding on a handful of exercises, but it may not have been enough to cement it, but I might not realize I short-changed her until several lessons later, etc. 

 

3) Because the review is done through instructions in the teacher's manual, I had to first read it and decide what we needed to do, then do it, then teach the new material, then decide how many exercises were appropriate.  Then multiply that process times 2 or 3 more children.  That did not work for us. (or better said, Ain't nobody got time for that!)

 

What CLE has over R&S is - instruction in the worktext - nothing to re-interpret to the child -  just open it and teach it.  The review is in the exercises of the lesson - so that didn't take more of my time.  Crossing out spelling and penmanship is quick and easy if that's what you need to do.  Imho, R&S was not quick or easy to use. 

 

If you don't want to stick with CLE (and I understand that - I didn't either), I would give at least equal consideration to Hake/Saxon before I would try R&S.

 

 

[MeAndTheBoys]

I haven't used R&S in 2 years, but am going back.  I don't remember any of what you've mentioned.

 

1) after 3 years of R&S and 2 years of CLE, they seem to approach diagramming in EXACTLY the same incremental way, IMO.  I know my older was diagramming in R&S 4, and when my second son picked up CLE in 400, he started diagramming--and it looked very, very similar.

 

2) We always did every exercise in the book and it didn't take very long, about the same time as CLE.  We never did "pick and choose" with CLE either--

 

3)  We had a hard year in R&S 4 with my older in the beginning--until I discovered the "Review" section in the Teacher's Manual. THAT, I would say, is the only slight disadvantage--you really need to do the review, and the teacher has to do it--while in CLE, it is built into the independent workbook.

 

The disadvantage of CLE for us right now is (apparent) quantity (with the lessons being 6 or more pages long) and some of the hairy underline-circle-draw arrows instructions in 500 and 600.  It is giving me a massive headache trying to grade it without crossing my eyes :)

 

But I didn't find R&S quite as bad as you did--I really think R&S and CLE are basically the same program packaged in a different way.  JMO--

 

B

I'll throw out a couple dissenting thoughts regarding R&S and then R&S lovers can come and defend it.  :D  

 

1) Because R&S chapters mostly deal with one part of speech at a time, it is a very long time before the student is analyzing the entire sentence.  Forever, it seemed to me, the student is only diagramming the simple subject and the simple predicate.  I think we would call this parts to whole, and I think while understanding the "parts" is important, it was extremely frustrating to us to never get to the whole.  (Disclosure - I tried a couple different levels of R&S one year and did not complete them, so I'm not actually sure when a sentence is diagrammed in it's entirety.  We got tired of waiting for it.)

 

2) Because many users suggest that it's not necessary to do every exercise in the book, I then had additional decisions to make about how much we should do and how to use the text.  And what about my student who needs more practice than some?  She may have demonstrated understanding on a handful of exercises, but it may not have been enough to cement it, but I might not realize I short-changed her until several lessons later, etc. 

 

3) Because the review is done through instructions in the teacher's manual, I had to first read it and decide what we needed to do, then do it, then teach the new material, then decide how many exercises were appropriate.  Then multiply that process times 2 or 3 more children.  That did not work for us. (or better said, Ain't nobody got time for that!)

 

What CLE has over R&S is - instruction in the worktext - nothing to re-interpret to the child -  just open it and teach it.  The review is in the exercises of the lesson - so that didn't take more of my time.  Crossing out spelling and penmanship is quick and easy if that's what you need to do.  Imho, R&S was not quick or easy to use. 

 

If you don't want to stick with CLE (and I understand that - I didn't either), I would give at least equal consideration to Hake/Saxon before I would try R&S.

 

[alisoncooks]

Well, I think I might've come up with a plan for next year.

 

This year (3rd), we'll finish up CLE LA 2. I actually went through the remaining light units and physically CUT OUT the sections that I wanted to teach. Then I taped them all in a composition notebook. Voila! CLE grammar without the parts-we-don't-use. :D. And while the end product looks pretty promising, I don't want to do it again. :p. (It took ages to finish...but necessary because DD gets distracted by skipped sections and crossing them out.)

 

So I took a closer look at Treasured Conversations (bought it a few days ago). It definitely has the potential to be our main writing/grammar program for next year. And if we need to take a break, I also already have Writing Skills Book A, which covers parts of speech alongside writing.

 

Thanks again for the feedback and sharing your experiences!

[marylandhsmom]

If you ever change your mind -- we were in the exact same boat -- so we switched to BJU English.  And DD7 loves it!

[alisoncooks]

If you ever change your mind -- we were in the exact same boat -- so we switched to BJU English. And DD7 loves it!

BJU was on my list of "worth looking at"...but I'm just not willing to pay the price of their teacher guides! I almost think I could teach it just from the student text, but I'm not sure. Do you use the teacher guide?

[Storygirl]

I'll chime in. We haven't used R&S, but I've used both CLE and BJU. I never bought the teacher's manual for BJU and had no trouble figuring out what DD was meant to do for the lessons. It's pretty obvious. Then again, since I never used the TM, I don't know if I was missing something. We used third and fourth grade for my oldest. I found the grammar to be very light and the writing instructions to be pretty straightforward and traditional. The writing instruction would teach them to brainstorm and plan, then write a draft, then revise it, then write a final copy; each lesson focused on a different writing form -- friendly letter, book review, etc. Very similar to a traditional school writing curriculum, I think.

 

I thought about getting BJU for my younger kids this year, but I couldn't get excited about it. I found the grammar too light. The writing was okay. It was a good introduction to the writing process, but I can't say that it helped DD improve her writing (she is not a natural writer).

 

For those bogged down in the intense grammar in CLE levels 500 and 600, take heart! DD is in 700 this year, and there is less of that onerous underlining, circling, and drawing arrows business. It's still in there, but less of it, and what there is is more achievable. I was about ready to throw in the towel for CLE LA after level 600, but DD wanted to continue, and I'm glad we did.

[Storygirl]

CLE writing definitely is on the light side, though, so I've found we need to use another writing program alongside it. I've had a hard time finding something that suits us but recently started using the Writing Skills series by Diana Hanbury King. We've just begun it but like it so far. It's very incremental, starting with building good sentences and moving into writing paragraphs. I'm using level A with my youngers and started my oldest in level 1 (meant for 5-6 grade) because she is not a strong writer. I'm expecting her to work through it at a fast pace and soon move into level 2.

 

Another thought about BJU and the alternating writing and grammar chapters:  There is no reason that you can't work in two chapters simultaneously. For example, do grammar two days a week and writing three days a week, instead of doing grammar full time for two weeks and then writing full time for two weeks.

 

 

[jer2911mom]

Another thought about BJU and the alternating writing and grammar chapters:  There is no reason that you can't work in two chapters simultaneously. For example, do grammar two days a week and writing three days a week, instead of doing grammar full time for two weeks and then writing full time for two weeks.

 

We used CLE LA through part of level 300 and then switched to BJU English and I really like the BJU. I haved used levels 3 and 4 now. I still use CLE LA 100 and 200 for 1st and 2nd grades because I really like the phonics work after OPGTR.  I found the writing we were to be doing from the CLE writing handbook in the 300 level to be too vague, and my dd was having trouble keeping the parts of speech straight with the spiral teaching, so we switched to BJU mid-year.  I love the BJU writing instruction.  It is very specific and straight-forward, and they teach the child how to do the editing marks in the revisions.  They also give you rubrics as the teacher.  My dd did initially have trouble with remembering the grammar that had been taught once we got to the writing chapters, but I printed the Keeping Up pages on the CD and now she has just enough daily review during those chapters to keep it fresh, and we don't have any more issues with that.  There are also extra practice pages from the grammar chapters that could be printed and used for more daily review.

 

With BJU most of the instruction is in the TM, so it is definitely helpful to use it.  There is more summarized at the top of the English worktext pages than in the math, so you might could get by without the TM, but I wouldn't want to.  There are quite a bit of additional pieces of info. in the TM.

 

HTH,

Kathy

[alisoncooks]

*sigh*

Since starting this thread, I've spent the last 2 weeks researching and deliberating.

We are pretty much where we began. DD will be continuing with CLE next year. She has not been swayed by any other choices, no matter how colorful, fun, or easier-looking. She loves it, and I can't fault that.

 

My main complaint (other than we swap out the spelling for A&P) is the lack of writing. So, I think I may just add a monthly writing project of some sort. Maybe pick up Bravewriter's Jot It Down...

 

Thanks again for the feedback!