MyThreeSons Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I was going to use the Lions as an example of a team that I have found few people outside the region care about very much. The Bears -- Lions -- Packers - -Vikings divisional rivalry is among the best in the history of sports. But outside of those fans, or people who grew up in those regions, I just don't run into people who are strongly opinionated about the Lions. For some strange reason, here in SC, there are tons of Steelers fans. I was talking with the guy who runs a sports-related clothing and souvenir shop in our local mall, and he said that he cannot keep Steelers merchandise on the shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I was going to use the Lions as an example of a team that I have found few people outside the region care about very much. The Bears -- Lions -- Packers - -Vikings divisional rivalry is among the best in the history of sports. But outside of those fans, or people who grew up in those regions, I just don't run into people who are strongly opinionated about the Lions. For some strange reason, here in SC, there are tons of Steelers fans. I was talking with the guy who runs a sports-related clothing and souvenir shop in our local mall, and he said that he cannot keep Steelers merchandise on the shelves. Reminded me of this! https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/the-best-memes-from-super-bowl-xlix-23-photos-1.jpg?w=600&h=359 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 This poll backs up what I originally said: http://www.syracuse.com/superbowl/index.ssf/2015/01/super_bowl_2015_poll_new_england_patriots_hated_nfl_team_seahawks_cowboys.html Everyone outside of New England's reaction to the end of the superbowl can be summed up in this image. http://imgur.com/783arBS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yes, it is possible that the Pats cheated, but they haven't proven anything yet. However, several of the players on the Seahawks (Sherman included) tested positive for doing performance enhancing drugs and were let off on a technicality. The Seahawks were fined early this season for holding practices that weren't allowed. Pete Carroll was in all kinds of trouble for cheating when he coached at USC. I don't believe for one minute that Seattle isn't cheating at least as much as the Pats... maybe more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Everyone outside of New England's reaction to the end of the superbowl can be summed up in this image. http://imgur.com/783arBS Everyone??? Hardly. Difficult as it may be to believe, a lot of us don't care one bit about who won. We (maybe) watched the game, but more for social reasons than because we're football fans. And on another large board I belong to there have been plenty of posts from people all over the country who seem happy that the Pats won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Everyone??? Hardly. Difficult as it may be to believe, a lot of us don't care one bit about who won. We (maybe) watched the game, but more for social reasons than because we're football fans. And on another large board I belong to there have been plenty of posts from people all over the country who seem happy that the Pats won. Twas just a joke. Really. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I'm a pretty rabid football fan and this whole deflategate thing is making me mental. At the moment, there are two other league investigations that the teams have admitted guilt to. The Falcons have been piping in extra crowd noise for at least the past 2 years - the owner admitted it this week. The Colts have also been suspected of this for awhile. http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2015/02/atlanta_owner_arthur_blank_adm.html The Browns management have been caught texting their coaches on the sidelines during games, which is illegal. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12278830/cleveland-browns-gm-ray-farmer-face-texting-sanctions Earlier this season, the Vikings and Panthers were caught warming up footballs during a cold game. Against the rules. It was caught on tape and reported on. The teams got a simple warning from VP of officiating. Didn't make the nightly news. http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings The media isn't harping on either of these incessantly like they have with the Patriots. Also, new information has been leaked - only one ball was under PSI by any significance, the others were just a few "ticks" under. And the NFL rulebook has a sanction in place for tampering with the footballs - $25,000 fine. If the Patriots have tampered with the balls, the punishment is right in the books. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 people are practically in a state of abject mourning over that Seahawk endzone 1/2 yard line pass. If you want to be a Seattle fan, of the Mariners, the Seahawks, the Sonics, the Sounders, anybody, you better get used to it, because THAT IS HOW WE ROLL HERE IN SEATTLE. We ourselves are used to it. Almost in the playoffs? Better lose right now. Made the playoffs? Let's take a nosedive. Have one team that actually does pretty well and makes a profit? Refuse to give in and sell them off to another city. About to break a record? This would be the perfect time to try out something totally unexpected and also really stupid. But I'll never leave my home team, mainly because New York and LA and San Francisco suck! And not because we're jealous, either. Not at all. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 Boys and their balls... http://deadspin.com/tom-brady-threw-those-poor-ball-deflating-jamokes-under-1702608069 Tom Brady kinda probably sorta knew... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Brady (or his lawyer) was smart enough to say no when the investigator asked him to turn over his phone. Too bad he didn't care enough about the other guys to tell them to just say no, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Brady (or his lawyer) was smart enough to say no when the investigator asked him to turn over his phone. Too bad he didn't care enough about the other guys to tell them to just say no, too. Too bad he didn't care enough to not cheat. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Too bad he didn't care enough to not cheat. Absolutely! (I was being sarcastic with my comment.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Here are some of my frustrations with people who are defending Brady: They say the Pats beat the Colts by 38 points, so the deflated footballs weren't really a factor. There is plenty of reason to believe, though, that this wasn't the first time this had happened. Deflated balls certainly could have been a very real factor in many other games over the years, and could have played into the positioning for this year's playoffs. Some people say deflated balls don't really make a difference anyway. It doesn't matter -- if a rule was broken, it was broken. Some people are jumping on the frequent use of "probable" in the Wells report. They don't get that "probable" is actually the standard that is used in almost all criminal cases. Unless there is undeniable video proof, there is no absolute proof. A fingerprint or DNA may prove that someone was there, or touched something at the scene. Even on the trigger of a gun, for instance, it doesn't prove that person fired the shot that killed the victim. A whole bunch of such factors, taken together, are what gets a person convicted. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 My opinion is captured by this fellow: "Wake me when it's over": ___ Who cares? The NFL? The NFL doesn’t care about tampered-footballs. The NFL has NEVER cared about this stuff. If the NFL cared, do you think they would let offenses provide their own footballs? If the NFL cared, do you think they would let quarterbacks like Eli Manning use specially prepared footballs that have been scrubbed, scoured, spun, roughed up for months and months? If the NFL cared, do you think they would have a stinking $25,000 fine for altering footballs? Are you kidding: $25,000? That’s not even a parking ticket by NFL standards. They give bigger fines for mispronouncing Goodell’s name. And as far as anyone can tell, they’ve never even levied that pitiful fine. The NFL doesn’t care, not at all. They WANT quarterbacks to have footballs that they love throwing and they WANT receivers to have footballs they love catching. Do you know why it’s even a $25,000 fine? Believe it or not it used to be less than that – they raised it to $25,000 in 1999 but not because of quarterbacks. They raised the fine because KICKERS were doing all sorts of things to the footballs – baking them, overinflating them, putting Harry Potter charms on them etc. Those kickers with their black magic! Listen to this 1999 line from George Young, who was the Senior VP of football operations then. “Quarterbacks have complained to us about the condition of some of the balls used in the game. We want to make sure the quarterbacks are comfortable with the balls.†_____ The author also notes that the report on Deflategate is 200 pages longer than the NFL study into player health and safety. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 and what do we learn from all of this? Cheaters really CAN prosper! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 If they really don't care, why is there a rule about the pressure? And because there is a rule, if the rule was broken, it needs to be dealt with. I agree with the article. I even used the George Brett pine tar analogy myself months ago. But Brett wasn't hiding anything. Everyone could see the pine tar on his bat. And MLB realized it was a needless rule and did away with it. Personally, I think the NFL ought to remove the rule altogether. Make sure the balls are supplied by Wilson to their exacting standards, and that's it. Let the quarterbacks and kickers do what they want. My sons always knew that no matter what they had done, if they lied about it, the punishment for lying would be worse than the punishment for the original infraction. That is what is going to follow Brady the most -- not the initial infraction, but the deception afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 If they really don't care, why is there a rule about the pressure? And because there is a rule, if the rule was broken, it needs to be dealt with. I agree with the article. I even used the George Brett pine tar analogy myself months ago. But Brett wasn't hiding anything. Everyone could see the pine tar on his bat. And MLB realized it was a needless rule and did away with it. Personally, I think the NFL ought to remove the rule altogether. Make sure the balls are supplied by Wilson to their exacting standards, and that's it. Let the quarterbacks and kickers do what they want. My sons always knew that no matter what they had done, if they lied about it, the punishment for lying would be worse than the punishment for the original infraction. That is what is going to follow Brady the most -- not the initial infraction, but the deception afterwards. Yes, I think the Pats probably should have paid the $25,000 fine just to make the problem go away. They're already saving tons of money on Brady. Do you know he makes just $11 million a year? That makes him 17th in terms of QB salary. There are 5 or 6 who make over $20 million a year. Crazy world. Purists would say, have the refs give a fresh ball each time. (The only reason they don't is that QBs do better with balls they get to fiddle with to maximize their advantage. Which is good for ratings.) I think that would be ideal, really. But I'm not a football player. Maybe it's like professional ballet where each pointe shoe is custom made, cost like $80 and is used once. If that's the case, perhaps the NFL set rules that might be too strict for their own good, and QBs should be free to do whatever they want with balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 They're already saving tons of money on Brady. Do you know he makes just $11 million a year? Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous this question is? There is absolutely nothing *just* about $11 million a year -- in any sense of the word just. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 and what do we learn from all of this? Cheaters really CAN prosper! Yes. I was just thinking this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Here are some of my frustrations with people who are defending Brady: They say the Pats beat the Colts by 38 points, so the deflated footballs weren't really a factor. There is plenty of reason to believe, though, that this wasn't the first time this had happened. Deflated balls certainly could have been a very real factor in many other games over the years, and could have played into the positioning for this year's playoffs. Some people say deflated balls don't really make a difference anyway. It doesn't matter -- if a rule was broken, it was broken. Some people are jumping on the frequent use of "probable" in the Wells report. They don't get that "probable" is actually the standard that is used in almost all criminal cases. Unless there is undeniable video proof, there is no absolute proof. A fingerprint or DNA may prove that someone was there, or touched something at the scene. Even on the trigger of a gun, for instance, it doesn't prove that person fired the shot that killed the victim. A whole bunch of such factors, taken together, are what gets a person convicted. Did you make it through the whole report? (so long!) I managed to read it and it looks like it started happening after the Jets game in October when the equipment manager found that the balls had been overinflated by the NFL refs up to 16psi. Brady had been complaining through the game that the balls felt like rocks or something. After that game, he asked to see the rulebook and requested that the balls be set to 12.5 psi exactly - prior to that game, the balls had been set to between 12.75 and 12.85 psi because that was what had always been done. Do I think that Brady asked his equipment guys to make sure the refs didn't over inflate the balls again after the Jets game? Yup. Is it against the rules to do anything to the balls after the refs have them? Yup. Does every other quarterback in the league do it? Yup. I think Brady's agent and lawyer have done a horrible job prepping him for questions from the media and at his initial press conference he looked guilty. I think he should have just explained then what happened and that he knew technically it wasn't ok but that the balls had been overinflated before and he wanted them down to the legal minimum. He would be in much better standing with this situation if he did that from the get go. But - the league should be consistent. They gave the Vikings and Jaguars a very mild reminder when they were caught red handed tampering with balls mid-game this year. They basically said "we looked into it and reminded the teams that balls are not to be tampered with after the refs check them" Historically if Team A lodges a complaint with the NFL against Team B - the NFL will call up Team B and let them know what's going on and ask them to stop doing that particular infraction. In this case, the NFL set up a sting operation. Why did they treat the Patriots differently? 2 years ago, the Chargers were caught using stickum and tried to hide the evidence by not giving up their towels to the NFL when asked. They were fined $20,000. There wasn't a 103 day investigation into sticky towels. I think Brady and the equipment manager and ball boy should be punished. I think $25,000 each for tampering with the balls and then another $500,000 for Brady for his lack of cooperation would be fair. Goodell suspended Ray Rice 2 games for knocking his fiancee out cold. Oh and the game that started everything against the Colts during the regular season - at halftime, the Patriots led 14-10 (with the possibly deflated balls) by the end of the game, they won 42-20 (after the refs fixed them). If anything, the balls hurt their cause. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous this question is? There is absolutely nothing *just* about $11 million a year -- in any sense of the word just. Of course it's ridiculous, that's why I brought it up, and ended the thought with a "crazy world". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Did you make it through the whole report? (so long!) I managed to read it and it looks like it started happening after the Jets game in October when the equipment manager found that the balls had been overinflated by the NFL refs up to 16psi. Brady had been complaining through the game that the balls felt like rocks or something. After that game, he asked to see the rulebook and requested that the balls be set to 12.5 psi exactly - prior to that game, the balls had been set to between 12.75 and 12.85 psi because that was what had always been done. Do I think that Brady asked his equipment guys to make sure the refs didn't over inflate the balls again after the Jets game? Yup. Is it against the rules to do anything to the balls after the refs have them? Yup. Does every other quarterback in the league do it? Yup. I think Brady's agent and lawyer have done a horrible job prepping him for questions from the media and at his initial press conference he looked guilty. I think he should have just explained then what happened and that he knew technically it wasn't ok but that the balls had been overinflated before and he wanted them down to the legal minimum. He would be in much better standing with this situation if he did that from the get go. But - the league should be consistent. They gave the Vikings and Jaguars a very mild reminder when they were caught red handed tampering with balls mid-game this year. They basically said "we looked into it and reminded the teams that balls are not to be tampered with after the refs check them" Historically if Team A lodges a complaint with the NFL against Team B - the NFL will call up Team B and let them know what's going on and ask them to stop doing that particular infraction. In this case, the NFL set up a sting operation. Why did they treat the Patriots differently? 2 years ago, the Chargers were caught using stickum and tried to hide the evidence by not giving up their towels to the NFL when asked. They were fined $20,000. There wasn't a 103 day investigation into sticky towels. I think Brady and the equipment manager and ball boy should be punished. I think $25,000 each for tampering with the balls and then another $500,000 for Brady for his lack of cooperation would be fair. Goodell suspended Ray Rice 2 games for knocking his fiancee out cold. Oh and the game that started everything against the Colts during the regular season - at halftime, the Patriots led 14-10 (with the possibly deflated balls) by the end of the game, they won 42-20 (after the refs fixed them). If anything, the balls hurt their cause. Let's just repeat..... crazy world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't get the whole multiquote thing, so I'm going to try highlighting and responding here. Did you make it through the whole report? (so long!) I managed to read it and it looks like it started happening after the Jets game in October when the equipment manager found that the balls had been overinflated by the NFL refs up to 16psi. Brady had been complaining through the game that the balls felt like rocks or something. After that game, he asked to see the rulebook and requested that the balls be set to 12.5 psi exactly - prior to that game, the balls had been set to between 12.75 and 12.85 psi because that was what had always been done. No, I haven't read every single word. Some of the statistical analysis is mind-numbing, and I am a self-confessed numbers geek. Where do you see support for the part I bolded? Brady and Peyton Manning were the two guys who were behind the rules change years ago that allowed QBs to submit balls to their liking. I find it hard to believe that Brady wasn't already intimately familiar with the rule before last October, or that he would have been using balls that weren't to his liking. Do I think that Brady asked his equipment guys to make sure the refs didn't over inflate the balls again after the Jets game? Yup. Is it against the rules to do anything to the balls after the refs have them? Yup. Does every other quarterback in the league do it? Yup. If Brady had a problem with the refs, he should have either talked with the refs about it directly, or asked the team to talk with the league office. When and how does "every other quarterback" do it? And if they "all" do it, why would the Colts call it out, knowing that they, too, could get caught? I think Brady's agent and lawyer have done a horrible job prepping him for questions from the media and at his initial press conference he looked guilty. I think he should have just explained then what happened and that he knew technically it wasn't ok but that the balls had been overinflated before and he wanted them down to the legal minimum. He would be in much better standing with this situation if he did that from the get go. He does look guilty whenever he talks about this issue. In my eyes, I see a transformation from a decent guy to smarmy. He literally (and I do mean literally) looks like a different person to me. But - the league should be consistent. They gave the Vikings and Jaguars a very mild reminder when they were caught red handed tampering with balls mid-game this year. They basically said "we looked into it and reminded the teams that balls are not to be tampered with after the refs check them" Historically if Team A lodges a complaint with the NFL against Team B - the NFL will call up Team B and let them know what's going on and ask them to stop doing that particular infraction. In this case, the NFL set up a sting operation. Why did they treat the Patriots differently? 2 years ago, the Chargers were caught using stickum and tried to hide the evidence by not giving up their towels to the NFL when asked. They were fined $20,000. There wasn't a 103 day investigation into sticky towels. What the Vikings and Jaguars were doing was out in the open, in front of fans in the stadium, fans on TV, sportscasters, officials, etc. (For those who don't know, ball boys were seen holding the balls near sideline heaters during a cold game.) And since that reminder was sent to ALL teams, there can be no excuse for Brady and company to think what they were doing wasn't cheating. Can you give specific examples of what the NFL does historically about complaints lodged by one team against another? I think Brady and the equipment manager and ball boy should be punished. I think $25,000 each for tampering with the balls and then another $500,000 for Brady for his lack of cooperation would be fair. Goodell suspended Ray Rice 2 games for knocking his fiancee out cold. I understand that the NFL cannot condone off-field behavior like domestic violence, and they feel they must respond. But their jurisdiction is really their own rules. There is no way to even compare what was done to a human being to tampering with the integrity of the game, so trying to compare the consequences is ridiculous. The consequences for what Brady did should be in line with other NFL-only infractions. Those fines are really nothing but a slap on the wrist for Brady, and I'm okay with that. The equipment manager and ball boy will be hurt, for sure, but will probably have donations made that will more than make up for it. Oh and the game that started everything against the Colts during the regular season - at halftime, the Patriots led 14-10 (with the possibly deflated balls) by the end of the game, they won 42-20 (after the refs fixed them). If anything, the balls hurt their cause. Where are you getting this? I thought there was only one game where the refs fixed the balls at halftime -- the playoff game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 If Brady had a problem with the refs, he should have either talked with the refs about it directly, or asked the team to talk with the league office. When and how does "every other quarterback" do it? And if they "all" do it, why would the Colts call it out, knowing that they, too, could get caught? You'll notice the Colts and other NFL players are very quiet on the topic now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Update: Brady suspended 4 games "The NFL has suspended New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady four games without pay for his role in deflating footballs for the AFC Championship Game, the league said in a statement Monday. The Patriots will also lose a first-round pick in 2016 and a fourth-round pick in 2017, and they have been fined $1 million." http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12867594/punishments-handed-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-deflategate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Beat your finance until she is unconscious, 2 games. Play with slightly deflated ball, 4 games. NONSENSE. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Beat your finance until she is unconscious, 2 games. Play with slightly deflated ball, 4 games. NONSENSE. There is no comparison in the severity of the two situations. Domestic violence vs deflating balls? Not even a close call. However, let's get the facts straight. Once the video showing him actually punching her came to light, the NFL suspended him indefinitely. The suspension was reduced by an arbitrator, thanks to the players union. Now if only the teams would do the right thing and distance themselves from him, that would be a statement. It is not the "playing with a slightly deflated ball" that is being punished. It is largely the refusal to cooperate with the investigation, as well as the deception and trickery that was at least implicitly approved by Brady that is being punished. I fully expect that the suspension will be cut at least in half on appeal. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think Brady's offense should be compared strictly with other "integrity of the game" offenses and let the police handle domestic violence. Pete Rose (when he was a manager) was banned for life from the game of baseball for betting on the game. Brady is a terrible liar and it shows. Not sure how he's going to address this going forward, after denying it, and now getting punished for what he said he didn't do. The punishment is pretty insufficient, in my opinion. Or, you could make the argument that cheating was "well worth it" compared to the punishment that was doled out. (easily afforded by Brady) Loss of a couple of draft picks and a fine is minimal compared to the success the Patriots have enjoyed over the past 7 years. The inflation of the ball very much matters. If it didn't, why would Brady be doing this (getting "The Deflator" to do it for him) and trying to hide it. Of course it matters. However it matters for more than you would think. We can also statistically pinpoint when it began. QBs like their balls prepped a certain way. (scuffed up, etc. for a better grip) In 2007, Brady and Peyton Manning (who is not implicated in this) asked the league to allow Away teams to use their own balls at Away games, rather than ones provided by the Home team. This was granted. Since that time, the Patriots fumble rate went from average (middle of the pack) for the rest of the league, to significantly better than the rest of the league. (with the exception of dome teams, which due to lack of weather have always enjoyed a better fumble rate. This does not benefit the dome teams because obviously any team playing in the dome has the benefit of the same weather the dome team does) So Brady's caper benefits not only him and his ability to throw, especially in inclement weather, but also the entire team in terms of their ability to fumble less than their opponents. Anyone who follows football knows that turnovers make a huge difference in the likely outcome of games. So the fact that the Patriots did well in a single game (vs the Colts) without the benefit of their deflated balls doesn't negate the statistical positive effects of their cheating. The TRUE punishment to Brady is the loss of his reputation. He has no one but himself to blame for that. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It's hard not to compare the two situations, Rice and Brady, since they are both for the same crime.... lying to NFL investigators. Really, Brady's "refusal to cooperate" stems from his not handing over his cell phone to have his texts and emails reviewed. In his shoes, I wouldn't have handed it over either. Not for deflated footballs. And 'deception and trickery' should warrant an increased fine, but from 25,000 to 1,000,000? That is a 400% increase, if my math's right, pretty extreme. I'm not outraged by it, I honestly don't think it's a big deal, but it's absurd. One headline I saw was "If only the NFL protected humans as well as it protects footballs". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 That's where the failure to cooperate with the investigation accusation comes into play. Sure, it makes no sense to hand over the cell phone if it's going to implicate you further rather than exonerate you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Beat your finance until she is unconscious, 2 games. Play with slightly deflated ball, 4 games. NONSENSE. These are different things because one affects the outcome of the sport. The other is related to a person's character off the field. I don't think it's appropriate to compare the NFL response to these two incidents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 And yet they said that the Pats were totally cooperative... Goodell is a liar and just wanted to punish them because they beat his beloved Seahawks. If you actually watched the presentation of the trophy after the Super Bowl, and if you were actually looking at it realistically, you could tell that Goodell hated giving the trophy to the Pats. HE was rooting for the Seahawks (even to the point of ignoring the fact that the refs GAVE them the championship game which got them to the Super Bowl in the first place). For the record, I don't like either of these two teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 These are different things because one affects the outcome of the sport. The other is related to a person's character off the field. I don't think it's appropriate to compare the NFL response to these two incidents. I don't agree, I think pointing out the shameful NFL response to domestic violence is never inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 And yet they said that the Pats were totally cooperative... Wait, who said the Pats were totally cooperative? I'm lost. That's not what the report said. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 So Brady's caper benefits not only him and his ability to throw, especially in inclement weather, but also the entire team in terms of their ability to fumble less than their opponents. Anyone who follows football knows that turnovers make a huge difference in the likely outcome of games. So the fact that the Patriots did well in a single game (vs the Colts) without the benefit of their deflated balls doesn't negate the statistical positive effects of their cheating. The TRUE punishment to Brady is the loss of his reputation. He has no one but himself to blame for that. I agree with the statement about Brady's loss of reputation being his biggest punishment. I have a friend who is a die-hard Patriots fan. We have been going back and forth on Facebook for months now. Today, he actually tried to make this argument: "***IF*** underinflation really is of benefit to the passer, it is of AT LEAST as equal benefit to the one trying to intercept the pass." No -- the benefit to the passer far outweighs any benefit to the defender. The percent of passes that a defender even gets his hands on the ball pales in comparison to the 100% of plays that the QB handles the balls, and the almost-100% that another teammate handles the ball. It cannot benefit him unless he touches it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Wait, who said the Pats were totally cooperative? I'm lost. That's not what the report said. I agree -- totally confused by that statement. From the Wells report: "We believe the failure by the Patriots and its counsel to produce McNally for the requested follow-up interview violated the club‟s obligations to cooperate with the investigation under the Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of League Rules and was inconsistent with public statements made by the Patriots pledging full cooperation with the investigation." "The NFL did not impose any constraints on the investigation, and provided its full cooperation. League employees, NFL game officials, and representatives of the Indianapolis Colts, the Baltimore Ravens, Wilson Sporting Goods Company (“Wilsonâ€) and the unions that represent NFL players and NFL game officials also cooperated in the investigation. The NFL, the Colts and Wilson provided access to various documents and materials." "In addition, the Patriots provided substantial cooperation throughout the investigation, making personnel, documents and other information available to us upon request. As noted herein, this cooperation was subject to an important exception—the refusal by counsel for the Patriots to arrange a requested follow-up interview of Jim McNally by our investigative team." So, the Patriots were pretty cooperative except when it came to letting the investigators talk to the guy who actually (allegedly) deflated the balls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I don't agree, I think pointing out the shameful NFL response to domestic violence is never inappropriate. But the fact that a person has been involved in domestic violence does not affect outcomes in a game. I would like the NFL to find a way to deal with DV, including banning certain athletes, but the fact that anyone beats his wife cannot be a reason to look at the results of games and say they cheated. In the athletic event you still see performing at the top of their ability--DV is not a performance enhancing drug or an alteration of equipment. That's why these are separate issues. You may want the same outcome. The same outcome may be appropriate, but they are still different things. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 But the fact that a person has been involved in domestic violence does not affect outcomes in a game. I would like the NFL to find a way to deal with DV, including banning certain athletes, but the fact that anyone beats his wife cannot be a reason to look at the results of games and say they cheated. In the athletic event you still see performing at the top of their ability--DV is not a performance enhancing drug or an alteration of equipment. That's why these are separate issues. You may want the same outcome. The same outcome may be appropriate, but they are still different things. But it's not the crime-- we've heard this over and over-- it is the fact he lied about it. That's what the NFL is punishing. People are talking about expunging the Pat's records or speaking as though this multimillion dollar fine was due to altering the ball which may have impacted the outcome of games, but it isn't. Over or underinflating a ball is worth $25,000 in punishment according to the NFL. A million dollar fine, four games he can't play and two million in salary for Brady, losing two draft picks..... that's due to the lying. Punishments that will definitely WILL affect the outcome of the game. For lying. So, a significantly lesser fine for lying about a different (and much much more serious) crime is noteworth, in my opinion. By the way, I am assuming the NFL will now aggressively pursue punishment for Aaron Rodgers, who said on TV he goes over the limit for how OVER inflated he likes his game balls. http://larrybrownsports.com/football/aaron-rodgers-phil-simms-overinflates-footballs/253090 Except he says he's the one who directly orders the rule breaking. The Pats ruling was much more mild: "it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities" of Patriots the locker-room attendant. Which resulted in ONE of twelve game balls under the limit. So, if altered game balls are that repugnant, let's go after the Packers next, I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 But it's not the crime-- we've heard this over and over-- it is the fact he lied about it. That's what the NFL is punishing. People are talking about expunging the Pat's records or speaking as though this multimillion dollar fine was due to altering the ball which may have impacted the outcome of games, but it isn't. Over or underinflating a ball is worth $25,000 in punishment according to the NFL. He was lying about alteration of equipment. Something that directly affects the outcome of the game. As I explained above, things that affect the outcome of the game are different than DV. It could be that the end punishments should be the same, but how the NFL gets to that decision is different. Altering equipment or other cheating goes to the very base of what sports is: entertainment. The consumers of this entertainment do not want to be lied to about what they are seeing. If after the fact you are told that one had XYZ advantage, you will feel cheated out the experience and may decide not to watch any game from any team ever again because you feel it's just not real, so what's the point. The league dealing with cheating should be more straight forward, because ultimately they want to say we are offering this product and with our product you are getting exactly what you see, we aren't going to trick you. DV is a little higher than the base level. The consumer has to care beyond watching the base clinical performance of the athletes. They have to care who the athletes are. The fact of DV does not affect the outcome of any game. However, many consumers do care who these athletes are on a personal level. Consumers may decide they do not want to support certain teams because there are athletes involved in DV on those teams. Keep in mind that there will be consumers who do not care at all about DV and who will only examine the performance of the athletes. Not everyone elevates the athletes to role model status, some people just want to look at the sport and compartmentalize. Just looking at the sport is the heart of the entertainment product. You have to go to a higher when you start thinking about the athletes as people who have roles in the greater society. If you go to a sports bar, no one says after a play "that catch shouldn't count because the WR is a terrible husband." However, there are some people who may have stopped attending games because the WR is a terrible husband. DV is trickier to handle because the league is examining layers of these athletes as human beings. Are they in counseling? Should someone get help and get a second chance? What is the impact of no second chance? What is the message to the consumer who sees the athlete as a role model if we give a second chance? What type of punishment sends the message we want to give? Shoot, does the NFL even know what message they want to give? We, as consumers, may all know what message we want the NFL to give, but does the league know internally. So, to me and you, perhaps DV should be straight forward, but to the league it is not. Part of the reason it is not is because DV is not affecting the base product of the league, which is an athletic event. Ultimately, both issues have an economic impact on the league. This truly why the league has to respond to both problems. I don't for a second believe the league would respond to either if there was not economic impact on the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 By the way, I am assuming the NFL will now aggressively pursue punishment for Aaron Rodgers, who said on TV he goes over the limit for how OVER inflated he likes his game balls. http://larrybrownsports.com/football/aaron-rodgers-phil-simms-overinflates-footballs/253090 Except he says he's the one who directly orders the rule breaking. The Pats ruling was much more mild: "it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities" of Patriots the locker-room attendant. Which resulted in ONE of twelve game balls under the limit. So, if altered game balls are that repugnant, let's go after the Packers next, I guess? There is a HUGE difference: there is nothing in the rules that says Rodgers is supposed to submit balls for approval that meet the pressure limit. It is the officials' job to check the pressure and bring them down if needed. I haven't seen anything that suggests he does anything with the balls after the officials have approved them. From everything I've read, he didn't break any rules or ask anyone to break rules for him. In the beginning, I thought this is what we would find with Brady -- that he found a way to get what he wanted while still living up to the letter of the law. Now, it doesn't look like that. His statements have all been so carefully worded, though, that I have a feeling he may be able to truthfully say something like "I never asked anyone to deflate the balls for me", because maybe he didn't literally ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 There is a HUGE difference: there is nothing in the rules that says Rodgers is supposed to submit balls for approval that meet the pressure limit. It is the officials' job to check the pressure and bring them down if needed. I haven't seen anything that suggests he does anything with the balls after the officials have approved them. From everything I've read, he didn't break any rules or ask anyone to break rules for him. In the beginning, I thought this is what we would find with Brady -- that he found a way to get what he wanted while still living up to the letter of the law. Now, it doesn't look like that. His statements have all been so carefully worded, though, that I have a feeling he may be able to truthfully say something like "I never asked anyone to deflate the balls for me", because maybe he didn't literally ask. Could you help me understand the difference? I'm really not getting it. As for the rest of it, if the NFL thinks ball inflation is so critical to game outcome, change the fine. Increase it. Giving what amount to a multimillion dollar fine for a 25,000 offense is kind of like you getting a speeding ticket for $200 and then the judge adding a $6000 fine because you could have killed someone or your fast driving may have impacted someone else negatively. Now if you speed ad you do kill someone- you should face the full force of the law. But the 25,000 fine indictes that the NFL has viewed this issue as a misdemeanor , not a felony. (Except for the unpopular Pats). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 This really didn't need to be such a big deal .. the Patriots mishandled it from the get-go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Could you help me understand the difference? I'm really not getting it. The rules now say (thanks to Mr. Brady and Peyton Manning petitioning for this several years ago) that each team is allowed to prepare the footballs in a way that is agreeable to the team. In other words, each quarterback gets to have balls that are what he wants, within limitations. Most quarterbacks have a very specific process they have some staff member go through to prepare the balls that will be used in the game that week. Some balls are being prepped weeks ahead of time. Each team may submit 12 footballs for approval two hours and fifteen minutes before game time. The officials are to check the balls to see that they meet the standards. The pressure is to be measured and adjusted if necessary. Quoting from the instructions to the referee: "The balls should be checked for proper inflation and marked with your stamp/mark. If the footballs are delivered to you with a pressure between 12 ½ and 13 ½ pounds, you should not adjust the pressure, as that is the preference of that team‟s QB. If the pressure is below 12 ½, inflate the ball to 12 ½ and if above 13 ½ deflate the ball to that pressure." So the rules allow for the fact that some balls will be submitted above or below the specified range, and tell the referee what to do in those cases, but notably does not indicate there is any penalty for submitting balls above or below the range. What Aaron Rodgers said is that he submits balls above the limit, knowing that the ref is supposed to adjust it down to 13.5. If the ref doesn't do his job properly and an overinflated ball gets through, that's on the ref, not Rodgers. The rules further state that no one is to mess with the footballs after they have been approved. The problem the Patriots are facing is that the preponderance of evidence shows that someone, probably McNally, and probably with Brady's knowledge if not outright instruction, broke the rule by deflating balls after they had been approved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 And here's a good question for Patriots fans: If the Pats are so innocent, why did the team indefinitely suspend McNally and Jastremski? The NFL didn't issue those suspensions -- they did put some limitations on the duties they perform in the future, but they didn't say they couldn't work at all. If I were the Patriots owner, so doggone sure my guys hadn't done anything wrong, I would be protecting them, not throwing them under the bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 If the Pats deserve to be punished this harshly, then the two teams who were caught illegally warming up the balls with the heater on the sideline should also be punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMommy Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 This thread is just the gift that keeps on giving...I don't even like football, but every time I see the title, I chuckle. :) 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The problem the Patriots are facing is that the preponderance of evidence shows that someone, probably McNally, and probably with Brady's knowledge if not outright instruction, broke the rule by deflating balls after they had been approved. Thank you. I was not following this story and, not being a football fan, could not understand what exactly Tom Brady was held accountable for - this sums it up in a way that I can understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamajag Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 If the Pats deserve to be punished this harshly, then the two teams who were caught illegally warming up the balls with the heater on the sideline should also be punished. The Pats were warned about the situation earlier in the season. They continued to enjoy soft balls and were busted and punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 If the Pats deserve to be punished this harshly, then the two teams who were caught illegally warming up the balls with the heater on the sideline should also be punished. I think the punishment is too harsh, but it's pretty clear that it's based mostly on the refusal of the Patriots to cooperate fully with the investigation. And I also think it was heavy-handed with the expectation that it will be reduced, as such penalties often are. I heard Ted Wells speak on ESPN yesterday, and he expressed the serious outrage that one would expect from someone who was falsely accused of being biased, having come to inappropriate conclusions, etc. That is strongly contrasted with how Brady has been responding. For instance when he was asked if he was a cheater, and he smiled, blinked, and said, "I don't believe so." As far as the Vikings and Panthers ball boys heating balls on the sideline: Yep, punish them. $25,000 each team. They were wrong, they've been informed and told not to do it again. Their "sin" was not hidden -- in fact, it was so out in the open, that the only logical conclusion is that they didn't even know they were doing wrong. They didn't duck into a bathroom to do it. When confronted about it, they didn't refuse to cooperate, they didn't lie about it, they didn't hinder an investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The Pats were warned about the situation earlier in the season. They continued to enjoy soft balls and were busted and punished. Where did you get this bit of information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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