Grades and college acceptance

[bethben]

I'm starting to get into the high school years.  Ds has always worked a grade or more ahead so currently he is easily doing high school work in math and science.  Ds is currently in 8th grade.  In these classes, he is getting a "B".  If I had him working at grade level, he could get an easy "A", but it wouldn't challenge him.  I'm starting to think transcript.  Which would be better - to have challenging classes and get a "B" or do what every other high school student is doing at his age and let him get the easy "A"?

 

I guess this has come up because he has finished BJU press physical science (which is integrated chem and physics) and is getting a strong B average in the class.  If he was doing Apologia physical science, he could have easily gotten an A because the material is not as in depth.  DH thinks he should be challenged and continue with BJU biology (which he would be starting in 8th grade).  Yes, he can do it and understand it, but those BJU tests are hard and he will not get as good of a grade with BJU as he could with Apologia.  Transcripts for college are just going to show "biology" - not how rigorous it was.  BYT, he doesn't really like Apologia (mostly because he's a visual guy and it's a boring looking text), but he tells me to just pick something - he doesn't seem to have a strong opinion.  OR---Should I give him Apologia Chemistry now which after this physical science class would be doable (he has the math knowledge for it) and then transition him to BJU biology when he's a year older?

 

Beth

[Julie of KY]

My recommendations:

1) Choose whatever curriculum will give your child the best education for his/her circumstances. In general, they need to be challenged at their level, but not necessarily super challenged in every subject.

2) You are in charge of the grades (unless you are outsourcing). There is nothing that says you have to grade a certain way or can't give opportunities to improve a grade through extra credit or retesting, etc.

3) Challenge is good - going too easy doesn't build life skills. However, you don't have to go overboard with challenge in everything in life.

 

I don't think you have to pick the most challenging curriculum in every subject. "My" son will not be doing the most challenging biology as this will give him more time to work on very challenging math, physics, and computer science. If he expends too much energy in challenging every area, then he won't have the energy/inclination to excel in areas he's passionate about. I'm also having to deal with how to balance the work-load with learning disabilities. I'd first pick the curriculum that is best for your child and then figure out how you want to grade it.

[Bootsie]

What is your goal for college?  A state school?  Private?  Large?  Small?  To some degree how much you need to play a "grade game" depends on what your goal is.  I favor providing a good, solid education over maintaining a super high GPA.  Remember, the goal isn't just to get into a college, it is to be successful in the college.  if you are providing mostly homeschool grades provided by the parent, schools will look more closely at standardized test scores (ACT, SAT, etc.)  

[Mom22ns]

What is your goal for college?  A state school?  Private?  Large?  Small?  To some degree how much you need to play a "grade game" depends on what your goal is.  I favor providing a good, solid education over maintaining a super high GPA.  Remember, the goal isn't just to get into a college, it is to be successful in the college.  if you are providing mostly homeschool grades provided by the parent, schools will look more closely at standardized test scores (ACT, SAT, etc.)  

 

This. 

 

If your child is interested in a highly selective college, they need both challenging courses and the grades. Here is a thread that discusses this not too long ago on the college board.

 

If they want into a less selective University, then you have options. The colleges my ds looked at ranged from a somewhat selective LAC (where he has been accepted) to the local State U. For all of these, test scores were probably more important than transcripts. Colleges expect high grades on homeschool transcripts and aren't generally overly impressed by them unless they come from outside verifiable sources. I would say give him the best education you can. Most college bound kids would take BJU Physical Science as an 8th grade course. I'd keep him on that track and if selective colleges or academic scholarships are important, then encourage him to work for the A's too.

[ZooRho]

What are you doing for grades?  
Honestly I worked toward mastery for my boys.  Yes  your child will be competing against other students.  I'm not saying give an inflated grade but what all are you grading for your child?

 

[In The Great White North]

Two things:

 

1.  Mastery is a great benefit of homeschooling. 

 

2.  Several adcom types have told me they just use SAT/ACT/AP test scores for homeschoolers (although they do want to see the transcript)

[klmama]

I liked the BJU texts, but not the tests. There were too many problems and too much repetition within the test. After a while, I started making my own tests. The next year I switched to another publisher. This year I finally I switched to Apologia. We had resisted Apologia before because it looked too boring and didn't have as much information, but I think it's been a good change. The dc are finding the lack of visuals makes them pay more attention as they read. There is more real understanding, so the material sticks with them better long term. YMMV, of course, but it seems to me your ds could use Apologia, get As, and then later take AP courses in the same topics. 8th - Apologia biology. 9th - Chemistry. 10th- Physics. 11th - Advanced Biology (human anatomy) or AP biology. 12th - Advanced something else - maybe AP chemistry or a college level chem course.

[creekland]

We were a mastery family.  I see no need to do otherwise when building the foundation.  That foundation needs to be strong.  No college has complained as of yet and the two of mine who homeschooled high school are doing/did quite well.

 

I mentioned doing mastery in my counselor's note, so I didn't hide anything.  Mine also had ACT scores (and DE/AP tests) to back up their grades.

 

I feel many in ps lose out because the school can't tailor their speed for mastery (either faster/slower as per the student).

[bethben]

We have no idea where he would be going to college.  He's a 14 year old boy whose goal in life right now is to be able to do a front flip. :glare:   All I know is that we have no money for college for him (and even if we have more, it's going to be spent on long term care for his disabled brother)  He will most likely be going to a state college if anything.  Part of our goal for him is to complete as much college/CLEP/AP exams as he can so he can get a good chunk of college paid for a little more cheaply.  

 

I also do mastery.  I am considering having him retake his math course next year as well unless he can show that he really knows his stuff the remaining part of this year.  I'm not really giving grades because of that right now, but I feel like I should at some point for the transcript.

 

I have considered Apologia only because I do believe he would understand it more.  On the other hand, the BJU online teacher for physical science has really helped him understand things now.  Decisions, decisions...

 

Beth

[EKS]

We also work to mastery here, which I mentioned in my son's school profile as part of the section on grades.  I see the mastery approach as one of the great benefits of homeschooling (and one of the biggest drawbacks of traditional school).   

[klmama]

If a state school is the likely goal, you should start checking now to determine which CLEPS and APs will be accepted so you can spend your money wisely. Many state schools accept only a few of each.  Private colleges will accept a lot more, but their tuition is likely to be higher. 

We found virtualhomeschoolgroup.com had free, self-paced science courses for Apologia with video lectures and online quizzes and tests (although we use the paper tests instead).  The same site also offers free live courses with August registration.  My dc aren't STEM kids, but they are enjoying science for the first time since elementary school. I think that says something! 

 

 

 

 

[Mom22ns]

We have no idea where he would be going to college.  He's a 14 year old boy whose goal in life right now is to be able to do a front flip. :glare:   All I know is that we have no money for college for him (and even if we have more, it's going to be spent on long term care for his disabled brother)  He will most likely be going to a state college if anything.  Part of our goal for him is to complete as much college/CLEP/AP exams as he can so he can get a good chunk of college paid for a little more cheaply.  

 

I also do mastery.  I am considering having him retake his math course next year as well unless he can show that he really knows his stuff the remaining part of this year.  I'm not really giving grades because of that right now, but I feel like I should at some point for the transcript.

 

I have considered Apologia only because I do believe he would understand it more.  On the other hand, the BJU online teacher for physical science has really helped him understand things now.  Decisions, decisions...

 

Beth

 

From this, I would not step him down to Apologia (and having tried both, I do consider it a significant step down). If he is getting solid Bs on BJU tests which are HARD and full of trivia and he feels good about his learning, I'd keep him there. If he gets to a point of feeling lost, consider changing. DIVE covers as much information and works great with BJU texts but has much easier tests. They also have a syllabus to go with Apologia, but you have to supplement Apologia, either with the Advanced book (Biology) or with a lot of internet readings because Apologia doesn't cover all the needed information.

 

Keep him at the highest level he can really master. It will show in his test scores which will be critical for scholarships. If he can't master it any more, switch or repeat with a different curriculum as you are considering with math.

 

CLEPs are a great way to get college credit inexpensively. Dual enrollment, if you have a community college nearby, can help out too. Even if they don't discount, spreading the cost over time (through a couple years of high school) and taking small chunks can ease the budget and most CC's are pretty affordable to start with. There are a lot of affordable ways to get a college degree.

 

In 8th grade having no ambition beyond a front flip is perfectly normal :). Give him time and keep his academics high so door will be open for him when he is ready. If he finds a goal, then you can find a way. There is a CLEPforHomeschool yahoo group that you might want to look at. Lots of people using CLEPs and online education to get degrees very affordably. Some of the tactics preached there don't always provide the best education, but if a degree on a shoestring ends up being a necessity, it is good to know some alternative options.

[creekland]

If money for college is an issue, I'd add in significant study for the SAT and ACT tests.  Most merit aid is based upon those scores whether it should be or not.  Plus, there are schools where one can get a completely free (or minimal cost) education with high scores.  They aren't all podunk schools either.

 

Two that we came across that would be worth checking out are U Alabama and Nova Southeastern - the latter requiring lower scores, but still impressing us at a visit.  There are others.  Those are just two we visited.

 

He's too early to be looking at colleges super closely as many may change their requirements in that period of time, but he's not too early for you to pick up a study book and see how he does on a practice test to start arranging material to be sure there are no gaps.

 

If $$ for college aren't there due to low family income and assets, many schools also offer very significant need based aid.  Run some net price calculators to see.  But again, these schools are competitive to get into, so high scores are a huge asset.

[GoodGrief]

We grade for mastery here too.  Challenging courses are all well and good, but if his understanding of the coursework remains at a "B" level as he goes through the classes, I'm thinking he would be better served by taking a step back and achieving mastery of the topic at a slightly lower level.  On the other hand, if you are relying on an outside source to grade, it may be that his work and understanding is just fine.  As someone else said, you are the teacher and have the discretion to look over the work and make a final decision on a grade, assign extra credit work, whatever.

 

For colleges, yes, the grades are going to matter.  If he wants a state school  or something that is non-selective (and there is NOTHING wrong with that), the "B"s are probably fine.  But if he wants a selective school, you need to carefully consider your grading system.

 

So, in the end, my daughter gets "A"s, because she doesn't move ahead until she has the concept.  I do back up my grades though with standardized testing.  She has done 4 SAT subject tests, 3 AP exams, and of course the PSAT and SAT.  Still waiting for PSAT results, but all the other tests have confirmed my grades.

[GoodGrief]

I want to add, as far as Apologia, my daughter used it for chemistry and physics and got 750 and 730 on her SAT subject tests on those topics.  We also used the dreaded Teaching Textbooks for math, all the way through Algebra 2.  Her SAT Math 2 subject test score freshman year was 750, and her SAT math score was 800.  She went on to get high "A"s in all of Derek Owens advanced math courses and in Calc 2 at our local university.  She scored a 5 on her AP Calc AB exam.  People consider those "easy" currics.  I say it is all in how you use them.

[creekland]

I want to add, as far as Apologia, my daughter used it for chemistry and physics and got 750 and 730 on her SAT subject tests on those topics.  We also used the dreaded Teaching Textbooks for math, all the way through Algebra 2.  Her SAT Math 2 subject test score freshman year was 750, and her SAT math score was 800.  She went on to get high "A"s in all of Derek Owens advanced math courses and in Calc 2 at our local university.  She scored a 5 on her AP Calc AB exam.  People consider those "easy" currics.  I say it is all in how you use them.

 

This is very similar for my middle son except we didn't do SAT II tests.  He used Apologia followed by Campbell's Bio (the AP book) and TT math through Pre-Calc.  He had no problems in Calc and scored the highest score his cc adviser had ever seen (for someone without Calc) on the math placement test.  He had no problems with Thinkwell's Calc nor college Calc at a rigorous school afterward.

 

With regards to Chem, I wish we had followed it up with Zumdahl afterward as we did with Bio, but he's gotten As in all of his college chem classes anyway.  He just had to study a little more for the first ones.

 

Back to Bio... my ps high school youngest took this class in ps and used the Apologia book to fill in gaps as it went in more depth than his school book.  He's a Bio lover, so wanted more depth.  He also then used Campbell's book, but that was for his Advanced Bio (DE) class.

 

Hard is not necessarily better.  Whatever gets concepts easily understood and remembered is what is best.  That can differ based upon the student.

[Half-Elven]

I'm thinking about next year...we will be in Biology and will be doing Apologia.  A couple of questions:

 

1-Did you all order the tests and solutions manual?

2-Did you get a microscope?  If so, which one, and do you recommend it?

 

Thanks!

[bethben]

I did wind up doing Apologia.  I got the notebook also.  I know that many think it handicaps a child who is in high school level work, but I have found it to be an excellent teaching tool.  It even teaches them Cornell note taking skills and goes into the dissection labs very well.  We have a microscope and I have most of the lab supplies already (which is what really sealed the deal for me - I had 90% of the lab supplies).  I ordered the test and solutions manual and was happy to discover that they also have quarter semester tests included.  

[Lori D.]

We have no idea where he would be going to college… 

….All I know is that we have no money for college for him ...

…He will most likely be going to a state college if anything...

...Part of our goal for him is to complete as much college/CLEP/AP exams as he can so he can get a good chunk of college paid for a little more cheaply.  

 

Since finances are going to play a big role, you might start looking at some of the threads in post #5 on scholarships and financial aid in the big pinned thread at the top of the high school board: "Transcripts… Grading/GPA… Scholarships/Financial Aid… links to past threads here!"

 

Here are a few that might be especially good to start with:

- s/o: Cautionary Tale/High College Costs -- a brainstorm ideas thread (lots of creative/alternative ideas for paying for college)

- Preparing for college: what scholarships, grants to apply for? (post #5 is an explanation and summary of the scholarship/financial aid process)

- Scholarships and homeschooled students (suggestions for where to look for scholarships)

 

re: CLEP/AP plan

Do check into the university to make sure which specific CLEPs will be accepted as credit TOWARDS A DEGREE -- many CLEPs are accepted, but only as "electives", and do not help reduce the credit load needed for completion of a degree, meaning the student will still have to take just as many credits at the university to earn a degree. In addition, some universities only accept CLEPs be done BEFORE applying to the university -- they do not want current college students CLEP-ing at $125 per course, instead of paying thousands of $$$ per course! ;)

 

In addition to your plan of CLEP/AP, another option that can reduce costs and be done concurrently with high school is dual enrollment at a community college and then transfer to the state university. Many CCs and state univ. have credit and transfer agreements. For example, all 3 of our state universities accept a transfer certificate from our local community college which allows students to knock out 1.5 to 2 years of gen. ed. requirements at a THIRD the cost at the community college, and then transfer to finish the Bachelor's at the university. And, because it's dual enrollment, the credits count for both high school AND college.

 

Yet another option is to earn a Bachelor's degree at home via CLEP and distance classes -- College Plus (and others), or the DIY option. That can be done concurrently with the last 2 years of high school, or after high school. The excelerated Bachelor's degree option (4-year degree in 2 years) at home typically costs about the same as 2-4 semesters at a regular university. We know 2 young ladies who went this route.

 

 

BEST of luck in finding the high school and college prep route that best suits your son's future career needs and your family's wallet! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[cbollin]

I'm thinking about next year...we will be in Biology and will be doing Apologia.  A couple of questions:

 

1-Did you all order the tests and solutions manual?

2-Did you get a microscope?  If so, which one, and do you recommend it?

 

Thanks!

 

1. Yes

 

2. yes. Home Science Tools, model 4100

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/home-microscope/p/MI-4100STD/

 

and the biology kits from them as well

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/kits-for-apologia-curriculum/c/45/

 

I know there are other options for microscope and other places.  I was happy with service and the budget was fine for us.  so far used it for 2 students at home.

[Julie in MN]

2) You are in charge of the grades (unless you are outsourcing). There is nothing that says you have to grade a certain way or can't give opportunities to improve a grade through extra credit or retesting, etc.

 

 

It is very common to provide extra credit projects to help grades reflect a good student who may not be a good test-taker, may have had a bad day, etc.  This could be reading an extra science article and writing a review, etc. 

 

It is also common to provide helps for tests -- I've seen test prep sessions that practically hand students answers and I've seen 1/2 credit given for each wrong answer that can be corrected. 

 

Don't be scared away from what you see as the best curriculum because of grades.  We homeschoolers don't have to do that.

 

Julie