Please explain the diff. between 6th and Pre-A (MM users here). My guy is hating math now!

[abrightmom]

Math has just been hard the past year .... lots of slogging and my strong math student currently "hates math". Makes me SAD and has NEVER been an issue until recently.

 

As I'm looking at my resources and trying to ponder what, if anything, I ought to do I realize I don't understanding the progression of math at this point. Pre-A stuff looks a lot like 6th grade math (we're using Math Mammoth) ..... 

 

Any thoughts on how to help a student who is starting to HATE math to the point of wanting to quit? I have been pushing through this issue for a good long while (fall of 5th). *I* love Math Mammoth but wonder if the tedium of math has done him in .... He has always loved MM and never wanted to leave it. He actually told me he wants to do Christian Light so he has ONE lesson a day and then he's done. However, I think that CLE is easier for him and that's the draw .... IDK if I should let him go with it for awhile (I have 6th here). Thing is that I don't want to get behind in math and I hope to have him start a Zacarro book ..... I feel like I'm pushing a tractor uphill. With MM this year I'm spending GOBS of time correcting (soooo tedious) and then going back over mistakes with him (always computation or mistakes due to lack of neatness). I understand the dread he feels .... :)

 

I may be able to see how to work with him if I can understand how 6th and Pre-A fit together. I just don't know what I can skip, speed through, overlap, etc. I can't judge the cost of "taking a break" because if we do then I KNOW we won't finish MM6 by end of school year (doing math all summer has NEVER worked here so I no longer plan on doing that). 

[maize]

Math was starting to feel like a real slog for dd11 this year, working through MM6. We finally just decided to jump into prealgebra, using AOPS and Jousting Armadillos and she is much happier.

 

MM6 (we had the old version) was lots of work on calculations. The prealgebra resources we are using are dealing with more interesting conceptual work. If she struggles with calculations along the way we can always go back and review or fill in gaps.

[MamaSprout]

I lost a post I started... Who knows- it may show up.

 

How far are you in 6? Frankly, I would go ahead and start Zaccaro and maybe just begin testing through MM chapter by chapter one day a week. There is a fair bit of overlap in topics, although 7 is at a higher level. We plan to finish both 6 and 7 this school year by testing and compacting. We are doing CTC Geo, so skipping the Geometry chapters.

[abrightmom]

Well, everything in MM Pre-A looks quite doable. I decided to purchase (it's on sale) and we'll do the first chapter. Honestly, he is totally capable of all of it so I wonder what on earth is going on in math. If we SKIP MM 6th grade altogether what am I missing? We can always go back and utilize portions of it if it seems like he's struggling (which I doubt will happen). 

 

Zacarro Real World Algebra looks MUCH MORE interesting than what we've been doing and has simple, straightforward explanations of concepts (and a lot of white space on the pages :) ).  We are going to work through that together with the beginning chapters of MM Pre-A and see what happens. If I don't do something different he's going to completely burn out. 

 

ETA: I did decide that finishing up Chapter 3 is to my liking. I hate leaving it undone as he's nearly there. He has one or two days worth of lesson work (we do 1/2 - 2/3 most of the time) and the chapter review. I also give tests. So by mid week next week we'll tackle chapter 1 of MM 7A and utilize Zacarro until the new year. It scares me to veer away though .... I think he needs to do the Fractions and Prime Factorization (??) chapter. Ratios and Percents I'm not sure about but those seem EASY and the review in Pre-A should be adequate.

[madteaparty]

I lost a post I started... Who knows- it may show up.

 

How far are you in 6? Frankly, I would go ahead and start Zaccaro and maybe just begin testing through MM chapter by chapter one day a week. There is a fair bit of overlap in topics, although 7 is at a higher level. We plan to finish both 6 and 7 this school year by testing and compacting. We are doing CTC Geo, so skipping the Geometry chapters.

I agree with elladarcy to use the end of chapter review and tests to skip over chapters in 6, and move over to pre-A. We did do 6a light in this manner, now are in7a and also skipping over a third of the problems but doing the review and chapter tests. Frankly my DS has not loved math since we left Singapore, but I feel strongly he needs to have his calculations down and mm is great for that.

[MEmama]

My math lover started to slog through MM6 last year, too. I think it was too much repetition; we kept expecting new challenges but they didn't materialize. He skipped formal per-algebra and went straight to Jacobs this year. It's still a lot of review 5 chapters in, but he's much happier.

 

Perhaps your son is bored?

 

FWIW because the actual math wasn't challenging last year, we spent the year reducing the number of "clerical errors" (basic mistakes) my son was still making. It helped immensely, as did him feeling more engaged with algebra this year. I would encourage him to pay extra attention, but generally a bit maturity will take care of it.

[abrightmom]

I am trying to judge this situation correctly. Boredom is a possibility but I don't have enough understanding of math myself to make the call!

 

He sees problems that I think are EASY for him and whacks the table and says, "I don't how to do this. Why does she give me problems I don't know how to do?" I try to gently remind him how to do it and then he says, "oh". I sneak around the corner to rip more of my hair out. He is HOT and COLD with math; forgetting how to do the easy and tapping his pencil waiting for me to catch up on some of the harder stuff. Sometimes I think we spend more time than is needed on some topics in MM but it's still too gray for me to know for sure. I wish I was more adept in upper level math. I want to be able to stay with this but think outsourcing may be our only hope! I need help .... 

 

We are just finishing up Chapter 3 of MM6A. It's taking far longer than I'd wanted EVEN WITH crossing stuff out. He stares, daydreams, pokes around, doodles, complains, etc. It's not that the math is too hard. I don't know that it is too easy either; I just can't tell.  :confused1:  

 

And I know that pre-teen angst is at work. "Today I'm lovely, tomorrow I'll be a beast!" My 6th grade plans are not materializing as I'm spending so much time dealing with ATTITUDES and sibling rivalry and MATH hate. Some of what is going on has to be the time of life that we are in.

[abrightmom]

My math lover started to slog through MM6 last year, too. I think it was too much repetition; we kept expecting new challenges but they didn't materialize. He skipped formal per-algebra and went straight to Jacobs this year. It's still a lot of review 5 chapters in, but he's much happier.

 

Perhaps your son is bored?

 

FWIW because the actual math wasn't challenging last year, we spent the year reducing the number of "clerical errors" (basic mistakes) my son was still making. It helped immensely, as did him feeling more engaged with algebra this year. I would encourage him to pay extra attention, but generally a bit maturity will take care of it.

I recently reserved a Jacobs Algebra text from our library. :)

 

How did you work on reducing the "clerical errors"? What strategy?  I feel caught between the need to work toward mastery and keep a shred of tolerance for math in the house. :) We usually do the corrections and I oversee that so I can steer him in the right direction to minimize the frustration level. I am interested to know if there is a WAY to reduce errors beyond continually correcting. Do they outgrow this? 

[SilverMoon]

Prealg and 6-8 often are very similar. Prealg just throws more negatives, variables, and such in with it.

 

For what it's worth, My DS/6th was similar in Horizons 6. I was adding Keys to Algebra and other random stuff to keep him engaged. Dropping 6 and putting him in prealg (AoPS) turned him back around.

[abrightmom]

So, if I completely DROP 6th grade math and start MM Pre-A am I skipping anything critical? Could we drop MM6 and do Tablet Class Pre-A? The format is so appealing .... and he'd have a TEACHER and need to pay attention. 

[Gil]

How much of MM6 are you guys doing each day?

You said that he wants to do CLE because then he'll have "one lesson" to do each day. What does that mean?

Why can't he do CLE 6th since you have it already?

Have you considered using CLE + MM since you have them both?

[MamaSprout]

So, if I completely DROP 6th grade math and start MM Pre-A am I skipping anything critical? Could we drop MM6 and do Tablet Class Pre-A? The format is so appealing .... and he'd have a TEACHER and need to pay attention. 

 

Do you have Tablet Class? If not I'd wait until a sale comes around. Seriously, though, if you need a break from MM, take it. Do Zaccaro for while, then decide. If you've done most of 6a, I'd say you could move into most PreA programs. I wouldn't jump ship yet, maybe just take a break and use Zaccaro (or something fun) until after the first of the year, then decide if you want to test through or change all together. You won't be behind from using Zaccaro.

[abrightmom]

How much of MM6 are you guys doing each day?

You said that he wants to do CLE because then he'll have "one lesson" to do each day. What does that mean?

Why can't he do CLE 6th since you have it already?

Have you considered using CLE + MM since you have them both?

It works best to set a timer and how far we get in the text differs day by day. The maximum amount of time I seem to be able to require is 40-45 minutes though I'd like to see his math efforts at a full hour 5 days a week. 

 

I think his request for CLE was for "easier math" though I'm sure what his thought process is .... maybe he was just venting :). 

 

I don't see the point in starting 6th over though I suspect the review in CLE would do him good (but delay getting to more challenge). We need to just go somewhere else but AHEAD of where we are or a different approach. I offered him the option at the beginning of the school year and he wasn't at all interested in CLE but he has burned out on MM (despite his insistence that he prefers it). 

 

Yes, I actually wanted to hybridize 6th for him to iron out the computation wrinkles. CLE is great at review and as he seemed to be forgetting so much more by the end of 5th I saw the hybrid as a potential solution. I spent a bit of time wrestling through how to do that .... was given a lot of kind and wise counsel here. The CLE/MM combo didn't fly because it was too time intensive and I couldn't figure out what to CUT. Presently, I am utilizing a daily review sheet (Math Minutes), a geometry skills Light Unit and some math facts drill stuff. 

 

Honestly, I don't know if there is anything that must be done. What I was hoping for going INTO 6th was something DIFFERENT for him because finishing 5th was a drag. It seems like we've been heading toward burn out for awhile and I want to CHANGE something. My ignorance about how 6th and Pre-A work together or overlap is making it impossible for me to know what to do. I feel like I have to follow the curriculum or else I'll do something stupid. Maybe we just have to stick it out with MM (but work between 6/7). My survival instincts and love for my son compel me to TRY to find a way to soften the burn out though! :) Recovering some enjoyment over math would be so refreshing also.

[MamaSprout]

Even if you jump into CLE, you could look at the scope and sequence to see what you have already covered. Even though it's a spiral, their topics are not mixed like Saxon: http://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/23

[Gil]

You need to sit down with both texts, a pen and paper and a couple of high-lighters to think this out. Dont just switch, it sounds like you need to re-evaluate the situation.

 

If he needs the review, then he needs to review. Simple as that. So, since MM6 doesn't provide the review that your looking for/he needs then he may need to do CLE. Its as simple as that. There really is no sense in fighting your way through MM6/7 only to come out the end foggy on the math. None. Fighting through MM and not fully learning the math is useless. And this is coming from a MM lover. We used MM 1-6 because it worked, and only because it worked.

 

Chalk his struggles up to whatever you like--puberty, ability, motivation, whatever--the point is you said that he needs review (which MM does NOT provide much of), his high error rate with MM6 and the fact that MM5 was a struggle and now he has expressed preference for CLE math. If I were you, I would seriously stop for a moment and think about this.

 

You do not have to guess and wonder about his preference for CLE. He is 12 years old, not 3. Just have him tell you--let him look through both books over a weekend and write out his perceptions of his math lessons from 5th to now and his reasons for wanting CLE over MM. Have him write out the pros and cons of each book (in his opinion) and write them down and submit them to you for consideration.

 

You say you don't want to do 6th over from the beginning, but why deny your Homeschooled student the benefit of going at his pace? If he struggled coming out of 5th and is struggling through 6th, this is an indication that something is wrong. 5th grade math is tough. 6th grade math is tough. It just is. There is no reason to punish him because he is having a tough time with tough concepts and tough skills.

 

I say that if needs the review and prefers CLE, then go to CLE 6. Start at the beginning and since a lot of it is/will be easy for him, have him double up in the early stages. Tell him that he has to do 2 lessons a day until he can't maintain the pace and an 85% average anymore. If he starts after Thanksgiving and works double time whenever he is able then, I'm sure that he'll be able to finish CLE by the summer. It is more important to cement these basics now than continually pray that the math-house doesn't topple because of its weak foundation later.

 

You said that you think the review in CLE will do him good "but delay challenge". Well, to the best of my knowledge a struggling student is challenged by the concepts that they are trying to learn. Unless you are an extremely skilled teacher and experienced in this range of math and familiar with the next level in the curriculum, you can not challenge a student who is struggling on basic concepts because the concepts themselves are the struggle.

 

Please, do not let "rigorous" become your educational god. You do not serve rigor, or owe it anything simply because it is 'Rigor.' You owe your son a proper 6th grade education. It is almost like challenge/rigor is like a status symbol or something on these boards and thats a deadly trap to fall into. Forget about doing the most impressive/challenging/rigorous thing and put "solidify basic foundation" at the top of the priority list.

 

If that means letting him use a spiral math curriculum at this stage in his life, then please just give it to him. You already have it on hand, he has already expressed interest in it. Consider giving CLE 6 as the main program a trial at least, from now until xMas and see how it goes. Have him work 2x a day for 45 minutes each time and see how he does. You can still supplement with whatever you want and you can do a run through of MM6/7 during the summer before going into 7th grade.

[EKS]

We had this same issue with Singapore 6.  My strong math student who loved Singapore insisted that he had been learning the same things since level 4.  We jumped ship towards the end of 6A and did prealgebra.  It was the right move for him.

 

(I'm assuming that there are similarities between MM and Singapore.)

[abrightmom]

Hey Gil,

 

You shared a lot of wise counsel! I take it to heart and find your ideas about papers, books, highlighters and pondering to be useful. I have done a lot of that in comparing Pre-A (Dolciani and Lial's are what I have; oh, and now MM 7A) to MM6. 

 

Here's the deal and I see that I've miscommunicated the struggle. Admittedly, this happens to me a lot in that I don't clearly communicate on the forum! Sometimes I write it all out and then delete it because I can't figure out how to ask or say what is needed. My biggest struggle is my own inability to judge the diff. between 6th grade and Pre-A. Changing up what we're doing with math is something I'm considering because we seem to be bogged down with MM. He just dreads doing math anymore and while it could be 6th grade math in general I'm toying with the idea that I could salvage math love and reinvigorate him. I am fearful of deviating from the MM S&S because I don't know if I'd be skipping something critical. Maybe all that I need to do is persevere with him .... 

 

My son is NOT a struggling student academically; he is struggling with even wanting to do math anymore, with hating it and dreading it and slogging through it. This is what was happening in 5th though I noticed his need for the spiraling review and that is why the CLE idea was being considered. He totally GETS math. Concepts, word problems, Puzzle Corners (he loves those actually), etc. NO issues with understanding at all. He averages about 90% on tests and his mistakes are the usual (i.e. add instead of multiply, forgot a zero, multiplied incorrectly). His mistakes in math are never conceptual and he is easy to teach. I've never had to go over and over any thing with him, even long division (which is killing DS10 :) ). I've never had to creatively present math concepts or bring out the manipulatives for this guy. The review that I believe he might benefit from is the spiral that CLE provides. Not because he doesn't understand; he forgets. The Math Minutes we've been using are giving us a daily spiral review vitamin and I chose those in lieu of trying to mesh CLE and MM.  

 

I am happy to provide what my kids need in math and do not believe I am striving for rigor for rigor's sake; that's not my intent at all! I'm sorry if I've communicated that. It is important to make sure that's not what I'm striving for (and I've certainly been guilty of that in the past; these years of schooling have worked a lot of humility into me).  It has been presented to me more than once that sometimes a kid who isn't liking math or focused on math is under challenged .... I believe he's super bored with math now even though he needs to keep learning the concepts. His love of Puzzle Corner indicates his enjoyment of harder problems. In fact, his favorite part of math is the word problems!! When I was in school I HATED them and much preferred the arithmetic side of things. Anyhow, I'm toying with the idea that maybe pushing ahead to Pre-Algebra could give him a bit more and help him to see the POINT of some of what he's learning. I doubt my own ability to make an informed decision and would appreciate it if something could explain the PURPOSE of PreAlgebra and how it is different from 6th grade math. How will I know that my student is well prepared for Algebra?  

[SilverMoon]

I disagree that a kid bucking against their math book means they need more review and/our slowing down. In my DS's situation I think he practically felt insulted. He knew it was below his level, and now he is thriving with the increased challenge.

 

OP, have you seen the prealg fence straddler thread? Refill your coffee and check it out. :) http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/342798-pre-algebra-fence-straddlers-master-thread/?fromsearch=1

[MEmama]

I recently reserved a Jacobs Algebra text from our library. :)

 

How did you work on reducing the "clerical errors"? What strategy? I feel caught between the need to work toward mastery and keep a shred of tolerance for math in the house. :) We usually do the corrections and I oversee that so I can steer him in the right direction to minimize the frustration level. I am interested to know if there is a WAY to reduce errors beyond continually correcting. Do they outgrow this?

I felt a lot like you--my math sense is so lacking that I couldn't tell if we could just ditch MM6 altogether or if it was essential. In retrospect, it would have been more fun to use something like Jousting Armadillos and he was more than ready for it, but I wasn't confident enough to pull the plug on MM. So instead I was honest with him--"Look buddy, I know this is easy for you and that's great! But you really need to start watching those little errors because it will matter next year in algebra. You'll want to focus on how fun it is, and not have to go back steps to find basic miscalculations". Probably the added year of maturity helped more than anything, but I did start holding him accountable. I feel like now it's extra important that his attention to detail catch up with his deeper cognitive ability.

 

I definitely wouldn't hold him back because of small errors (it doesn't sound like you are). It really does sound to me like he's bored and needs a new challenge. Since you found Jacobs at the library (lucky you!), maybe consider cracking it open with him and see how he takes to it? The first chapters are so gentle but hey--it's ALGEBRA!--and maybe that will spark a new interest. If he's totally lost or discouraged, you'll know that moving forward isn't the right choice yet, but if he loves it, maybe you've found the solution.

 

FWIW, Jacobs speaks to the student but if you don't want to teach it (I can't), I would suggest getting your partner or someone else to take over. I'm still crippled by math anxiety from years of incompetent and conflicting teaching--that's why I won't touch it with my son. I'll bet you can get through at least the first several chapters though.

 

Good luck! :)

[MEmama]

Hey Gil,

 

You shared a lot of wise counsel! I take it to heart and find your ideas about papers, books, highlighters and pondering to be useful. I have done a lot of that in comparing Pre-A (Dolciani and Lial's are what I have; oh, and now MM 7A) to MM6.

 

Here's the deal and I see that I've miscommunicated the struggle. Admittedly, this happens to me a lot in that I don't clearly communicate on the forum! Sometimes I write it all out and then delete it because I can't figure out how to ask or say what is needed. My biggest struggle is my own inability to judge the diff. between 6th grade and Pre-A. Changing up what we're doing with math is something I'm considering because we seem to be bogged down with MM. He just dreads doing math anymore and while it could be 6th grade math in general I'm toying with the idea that I could salvage math love and reinvigorate him. I am fearful of deviating from the MM S&S because I don't know if I'd be skipping something critical. Maybe all that I need to do is persevere with him ....

 

My son is NOT a struggling student academically; he is struggling with even wanting to do math anymore, with hating it and dreading it and slogging through it. This is what was happening in 5th though I noticed his need for the spiraling review and that is why the CLE idea was being considered. He totally GETS math. Concepts, word problems, Puzzle Corners (he loves those actually), etc. NO issues with understanding at all. He averages about 90% on tests and his mistakes are the usual (i.e. add instead of multiply, forgot a zero, multiplied incorrectly). His mistakes in math are never conceptual and he is easy to teach. I've never had to go over and over any thing with him, even long division (which is killing DS10 :) ). I've never had to creatively present math concepts or bring out the manipulatives for this guy. The review that I believe he might benefit from is the spiral that CLE provides. Not because he doesn't understand; he forgets. The Math Minutes we've been using are giving us a daily spiral review vitamin and I chose those in lieu of trying to mesh CLE and MM.

 

I am happy to provide what my kids need in math and do not believe I am striving for rigor for rigor's sake; that's not my intent at all! I'm sorry if I've communicated that. It is important to make sure that's not what I'm striving for (and I've certainly been guilty of that in the past; these years of schooling have worked a lot of humility into me). It has been presented to me more than once that sometimes a kid who isn't liking math or focused on math is under challenged .... I believe he's super bored with math now even though he needs to keep learning the concepts. His love of Puzzle Corner indicates his enjoyment of harder problems. In fact, his favorite part of math is the word problems!! When I was in school I HATED them and much preferred the arithmetic side of things. Anyhow, I'm toying with the idea that maybe pushing ahead to Pre-Algebra could give him a bit more and help him to see the POINT of some of what he's learning. I doubt my own ability to make an informed decision and would appreciate it if something could explain the PURPOSE of PreAlgebra and how it is different from 6th grade math. How will I know that my student is well prepared for Algebra?

Our boys sound so similar! I just went back and read this and have to say--having just been there--try Jacobs! :). If there are concepts there that he's missed because he didn't do formal pre-algebra, I'll bet he can easily figure them out. My son hasn't skipped a beat on anything yet, even though he isn't do pre-A. Honestly, I'd put the MM6 away, skip pre-A with him at this point (you can always go back if you need to) and open up that Jacobs book. Sounds like he will be fine (and probably much happier!).

 

Eta: the purpose of pre Algebra from what I can tell is to reinforce the same concepts in MM6 (we used the old version, not sure if that's exactly true with the new one). For my DS, it would have meant yet ANOTHER year of the same. Your son doesn't sound like he needs it; he sounds like he needs to move along at his own pace. He sounds ready.

[maize]

Moving to prealgebra absolutely reinvigorated my DD who was bogging down/starting to dread math with MM6.

 

I vote move on, and just plan for extra practice or review if and as it becomes necessary. Moving to prealgebra earlier than planned means you have plenty of time to slow down and review if necessary. Try it and see how it goes!

[Shellydon]

My DD slogged through the orginal MM 5 and MM 6.  It was hard for her.  Now in 7th though, she is a math wizard!  I have gone through several pre-alg books trying to find one that is 100% review.  I wanted her to do Alg. in 8th, but she would have totally been ready to start this year.   My 10 yo is doing the new MM 5 this year, and it is definitely easier/less intense, since the material seems to be spread out over three years (5th, 6th, 7th) rather than 2.

[Clear Creek]

6th grade math is a time of solidifying arithmetic skills...not a lot of new concepts, just practice in order to help the student reduce the number of computation errors. Some kids need it, some don't. Prealgebra presents new topics and new ways of solving problems using skills that are already there. Some kids can skip prealgebra and do fine in algebra, some kids can skip 6th grade math and go directly into prealgebra, and some kids need both 6th grade math and prealgebra. Do what works best for your child. With a child who grasped math easily but was beginning to hate math, I would jump ahead to prealgebra and fill in any gaps with the 6th grade curriculum.

[Roadrunner]

My son started hating SM because of drill. We jumped from 5B into aops preA, and it has been the best move. Math is again his favorite subject. Change can be a very good thing.

[mom31257]

If you did the placement test for CLE and put him where he fits, it shouldn't be too easy. I think CLE is very thorough and cements the skills needed for upper level math, I am using it along with LOF for fun. I found a great book that is a good geometry supplement, Hands On Geometry.

 

I plan to use CLE through the 7th grade level (which is basically PA), LOF Fractions, Dec & Percents, and at least one PA book, and the geometry book before starting Algebra 1. I am going to use Patty Paper Geometry during Algebra 1, but I haven't decided which high school books I'll use with ds. 

 

My biggest issue in deciding for later is how to implement some CC aspects of his learning. I'm concerned that the SAT/ACT tests will be aligned to it by the time he gets there. Looking at the standards, they are quite different in scope and sequence from most traditional programs.