Living in a bubble with my children?

[EndOfOrdinary]

Gifted denial is a large part of having a gifted kid. It took me years (and these boards) to finally admit that my son was not going to ever really be normal. That is still hard for me...and for him. I was that kid in a small town, and I did not want him to be. At this point we actively talk about it and that has helped him find friends. Never academic friends, but friends. My son and I have talked a lot about how many parents of kids brag about how far ahead their kids are or how they are so brilliant and he now understands that he needs to just be excited for them. As he puts it, "No one who is really gifted brags about it. It hurts too much. Then everyone gets weird. Really gifted kids change the subject."

 

So yeah, it is isolating. I try quite hard to make the inside of our house during school hours (7-3) to be totally open. We call them safe hours. I am saving up money to get my son in online and outside classes so he can hopefully have other kids who are at least geeked out about what he is. It is the reason he is so very set on Ivy League. The elite schools we have been to or interviewed students in (he started looking a year or so ago) are very much havens for him.

 

The people are out there, and the Internet is a blessing. We are just all spread out. In some ways that is isolating, in some ways that makes the world a smaller place.

[kiana]

It is a really odd situation to be in - and one I feel like is really alienating bc there is a lot of ego involved in other parents, some kids, and just society in general surrounding giftedness and acceleration.  In a way, I think it would be AWESOME if my kids were at grade level in a regular school environment with typical peers. 

 

I remember when I was middle-school-aged, crying to my mother "But Mom, I just want to be *normal*".

 

[TranquilMind]

First off, we live in a very well educated community with decent pubic schools. We have full day Kindergarten and red shirting is expected for young 5 year olds.

 

I was recently in a conversation with a bunch of moms during DD's dance class. One mom pulls her DD out half day for kindergarten and does math (which is usually taught in the afternoon) at home with her. Another mom is a volunteer in the afternoons during math time in the same class. The volunteer mom was telling everyone about how she was asked by the teacher to do an informal assessment of each of the children. The children were supposed to count as high as possible. 

 

At this point in the conversation I thought, "Wow! That would take forever to assess 26 children." DS5 once counted all the days on a calendar (365) and I'm sure he could go higher if he had the motivation. I realize he is very advanced at math but even my 1 year old can count to 20. 

 

Apparently, according to the mom who did the assessment, most children in the class were able to count to 29. One child only made it to 13, a few only made it to 20, and one made it to 39. I about died when she told us that! I did what I could to disguise my shock. The mom who pulls her daughter out half day said, "Good! DD can count to 29 so I know we are right on track." 

 

I realized I that I am living in a bubble with my children. Obviously I have NO CLUE what is normal academic development for young children. Anyone else feel this way sometimes?

Stay in your bubble.  It is a real culture shock when you step out.  Seriously.  Just do your thing and let your children accomplish what they are able to accomplish and they will find their places in the world later without any trouble at all. 

[eternalsummer]

Maybe this is the difference between having a profoundly gifted child and a highly gifted child (and the difference between being one or the other) - although I think part of it is still family culture.

 

As I child I was always the smartest person I knew, at least through a good deal of high school.  This was not nearly as much of a problem in terms of fitting in as was the fact that my family was not religious (in a fairly religious community), or the fact that I had no idea how to buy/wear the clothing and hairstyles other girls did.  I was smarter, but not enough smarter to be well and truly weird (until I was old enough to have met other quite intelligent people).  If I'd been one in 10,000 instead of just one in 500 -1,000 it would have been quite a different experience, I imagine.

 

Our kids are certainly by far the smartest children they know - because they went to a smallish public school at first (300 kids K-6), they were the smartest by rather a lot.  Now that they're homeschooled it is no different, just a smaller circle of kids.  They do have trouble making really close friends, but I've never felt like our bubble is really an intellectual one - they're 9 and 6! (and younger ones).  They may read several grade levels beyond their age group, and be able to do math a few years ahead, but in basketball or swimming class or strings class or just hanging out, none of this is relevant and never needs to come up.  

 

We do have a bubble, but it is (again) family culture/belief rather than intellectual superiority (although some of the beliefs/practices we have are because we are smart, to be fair).  The kids don't eat dairy, eggs, or factory farmed meat; we're not religious but we're socially conservative; we're somewhat separate from and critical of much of modern American culture and society.  All of those things function as a lot more of a bubble than the kids' brains do.

 

If I had profoundly gifted kids, though - not just 140 IQ kids (give or take) but 150-160 IQ kids - I can see how my perspective would be much different.  DD9 read The Secret Garden in 2nd grade and DS6 can do most of 3rd grade math; this is not as problematic or remarkable socially as a kid who read The Secret Garden at 4 or did algebra at 7.  That kind of experience would be jarring, I think.

[eternalsummer]

Also, I've noticed that a lot of people with PG kids here, or highly accomplished/motivated HG kids, seem to have one or two or maybe at the very outside 3.

 

We're going on 5 kids (in a month!); their little differences, even within the context of all being relatively bright, make the bubble more malleable, in a way, and make them seem less exceptional.

[Spring Flower]

Gifted denial is a large part of having a gifted kid. It took me years (and these boards) to finally admit that my son was not going to ever really be normal. That is still hard for me...and for him. I was that kid in a small town, and I did not want him to be. At this point we actively talk about it and that has helped him find friends. Never academic friends, but friends. My son and I have talked a lot about how many parents of kids brag about how far ahead their kids are or how they are so brilliant and he now understands that he needs to just be excited for them. As he puts it, "No one who is really gifted brags about it. It hurts too much. Then everyone gets weird. Really gifted kids change the subject."

 

 

"Gifted denial." I have never thought of it that way but it describes my feelings well. 

[kwg]

I had two immediate thoughts: our bubbles are not always academic, which i am sure you know but you could have shocked the mess out of me the other night at gymnastics when I was listening to a mom talk about moving so her boys could be on the team- they.are.seven.  And she moved (as in different cities) so they could be in gymnastics?!  At seven? And another parent has had their child in since he was two.  TWO?  they have activities for two year olds?!  

 

But see- That is just me because clearly no one else was batting an eye.  But I was thinking who are these people.  :lol: We just started a few months ago so it is all foreign to me.  I am sure they are thinking their own thoughts about me and "why is she starting so late!" or something.  (ds is 7)

 

And my other thought was ds12 went to preschool and was sent home his first little evaluation thingy where it had Counts to :---- and my lovely little booger went all the way up to 6.  Because that is all he felt like that day he said.  :lol: At the time I was a little embarrassed but now I can get it.  Counting is dull especially when you know you know it.  There are much more interesting things to do at 4!

 

Anyway, I am sure by 30 they will all be able to count and you wont be able to tell who could do it at 5 or  9.   :) (this is what I tell myself when I start to have anxiety attacks).

 

I remember when I had my child tested and I ignored the results at first for a while. Then I felt almost sheepish bc I felt like I had to tell my friend "he tested gifted in reading" bc she was so sad her boy didnt read like mine and  I was recommending books he loved and they were all falling flat.  I honestly thought it was a case of if you leave a child alone and not send them to school look what they can do! Still not entirely convinced bc how can he be gifted and then ask me questions like "where do I put this?" when we are packing a suitcase in the middle of the floor and have been all morning and he knows we are leaving and I just asked him to get his pajamas and put them in the suitcase or he gets out of the shower with a dry head. :lol: (fwiw- this was not an IQ test but rather an achievement test)

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

Kwg - we have two jokes: when DS obviously makes a really simple mistake like mis counting how far his piece can movein a game or putting his shirt on backward we say, "It's okay that you don't know, honey. You're homeschooled."

 

The other one is between Dh and I . When our son does something ridiculously asynchronous one will look at the other and say, "that's your gifted kid." Something much like not knowing where to put the pajamas.

 

It tends to ease the frustration and make us laugh.

[madteaparty]

My bubble is that outside of very few, profoundly gifted kids, I just don't believe the phenomenon exists. So I'm a gifted denier ;). We are all shaped by our own experiences (and insomuch as we are sharing them as anectodes, they're all equally valid, no?) and my experience is that DS failed miserably, completely the OLSAT at 4, and then tested "gifted" at 10. We did not believe at either time that he was gifted, we just had specific goals we wanted to accomplish (k program, online class). Having looked at the gifted tests he was given, I too, having graduated from a top graduate program would most definitely fail ;)
Eta I believe the world consists mainly of parents that do teach their kids to read at a young age, and count to 100, etc. and slacker parents like myself who just don't and let the Montessori school do the heavy lifting the first few years.

[eternalsummer]

Oh, I think smarter and less smart exists, the same way faster and less fast, taller and less tall, more predisposed to breast cancer and less predisposed to breast cancer all exist.  I find it difficult to believe that natural selection/evolution acts on every part of the body except the brain.

 

However, I am definitely in agreement that not only is the measurement and manifestation of that difference quite variable at 4 or 7 or 10, but also at 30; there are people with very good fast running genes that never bother to train themselves to run fast.  The very exceptionally fastest one in a million or one in ten million running talents, though, probably shine through one way or another.

 

 

[kiana]

Oh, I think smarter and less smart exists, the same way faster and less fast, taller and less tall, more predisposed to breast cancer and less predisposed to breast cancer all exist.  I find it difficult to believe that natural selection/evolution acts on every part of the body except the brain.

 

However, I am definitely in agreement that not only is the measurement and manifestation of that difference quite variable at 4 or 7 or 10, but also at 30; there are people with very good fast running genes that never bother to train themselves to run fast.  The very exceptionally fastest one in a million or one in ten million running talents, though, probably shine through one way or another.

 

Exactly.

 

And that's one big problem I have with "gifted" programs -- they tend to pick some arbitrary cutoff, as if you are either gifted or not, and then either you do the "gifted" program or the "normal" program. It's as ridiculous as having an "athletically talented" test for PE, and then having kids either do the "athlete" program or the "normal" program based on where they test.

 

This is not to say that I don't believe we should have individualized learning. We should. We should take advantage of the wonderful advances in technology to enable even more customization and individualization than we ever could before.

[1053]

.

[8filltheheart]

Bubbles that encourage you to focus on your individual children and encourage them to be their best them are great! I live in my own and my kids thrive there. What's not to love? :)

 

Fwiw, I think basing what academics a child can do at 5 as the definitive measure of a child's lifelong academic abilities is nuts.

My earliest reader (so far) is my most avg student. My latest reading student is most definitely advanced beyond "what can simply be taught" since I stopped understanding anything he said when he was in 8th grade. ;)

[kiana]

The cutoffs arent arbitrary though, they are formed statistically and are descriptions of a range determining which children would benefit from a different academic setting. My district does not have a gifted program, and instead uses a school psychologist to come up with a plan for students who are stressed by lack of intellectual stimulation in the elementary classroom.

 

I am aware of how the cutoffs are formed, and yet there is very, very little difference between two children two points apart, but one is labeled gifted and one is not -- simply because one is two points further away from average. In actuality a difference this small is not statistically significant and it is quite possible that re-testing would lead to a different result -- and this really prejudices enrollment in gifted programs in favor of the parents who can pay for re-testing and re-re-testing.

[madteaparty]

I am aware of how the cutoffs are formed, and yet there is very, very little difference between two children two points apart, but one is labeled gifted and one is not -- simply because one is two points further away from average. In actuality a difference this small is not statistically significant and it is quite possible that re-testing would lead to a different result -- and this really prejudices enrollment in gifted programs in favor of the parents who can pay for re-testing and re-re-testing.

I agree, and this does not help my cynicism. It's simply a slightly better than arbitrary way to apportion limited resources; see: NYC public kindergarten programs. I think it's also another expression of middle class angst (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person), similar to the sports crazy someone mentioned upthread.

I mean, who started a conversation with "Actually, my kid is absolutely average. In everything. Mediocre, you could say" :)

[Dmmetler]

I agree, and this does not help my cynicism. It's simply a slightly better than arbitrary way to apportion limited resources; see: NYC public kindergarten programs. I think it's also another expression of middle class angst (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person), similar to the sports crazy someone mentioned upthread.

I mean, who started a conversation with "Actually, my kid is absolutely average. In everything. Mediocre, you could say" :)

 

I have a friend who has stated that she's glad her DD is average. Her DD is a sweet, caring, lovable kid who is a happy B average student in a regular PS classroom, reads on grade level, and scores right about in the 50% on all standardized tests. She's not a stand out dancer, not a stand out soccer or softball player, and is generally liked, but not the most popular kid in her class. She's right about at the 50% of weight and height, is attractive but not beautiful, and is just plain a great kid. Parent conferences are easy, report card time brings no surprises. There are no IEPs, no having to advocate, no extra doctor's appointments.

 

 

There's a lot to be said for average.

[8filltheheart]

I agree, and this does not help my cynicism. It's simply a slightly better than arbitrary way to apportion limited resources; see: NYC public kindergarten programs. I think it's also another expression of middle class angst (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person), similar to the sports crazy someone mentioned upthread.

I mean, who started a conversation with "Actually, my kid is absolutely average. In everything. Mediocre, you could say" :)

Actually, I really don't care. My wish for my kids is to be able to function meaningfully and be happy and fulfilled as adults. Having an Aspie with a high IQ who really, really struggles in an attempt to function as an adult....IQ is not the end all be all. There is just so much more to life.

[Spring Flower]

Bubbles that encourage you to focus on your individual children and encourage them to be their best them are great! I live in my own and my kids thrive there. What's not to love? :)

 

 

I love that homeschooling gives me this opportunity! Homeschooling rocks!  :001_cool:

[kiana]

I have never heard anyone claim that a difference of 2 iq points is significant. The only thing the dividing line is saying is that in the past, the majority of children who are lower scoring dont benefit from the particular program offered to the higher scoring students. And because of the margin of error, schools with available seats will admit students who are just under the cutoff that are willing to put extra time into the endeavour in order to benefit.. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesnt. I had a friend push for the exception to get her child into 8th Algebra and honors English. She was a B student in english, and failed math.she reasoned it was better to learn more in english and take an 85 than sit in reg end again discuss plot summaries of easy books while getting a 100.. However, in math, she was unable to find enough time and tutoring to stay with the class and she flunked out. Her mother wanted the status symbol of honors way too much and found out the hard way that the math dept chair knew her statistics well enough to set up an appropriate dividing line in terms of student success.

 

I think we're talking about two different things.

 

I'm talking about the gifted programs for elementary school which tend to be based on IQ tests and not subject-specific tests.

 

You're talking about specific cutoffs for individual courses in middle/high school, based on tests relevant to that specific course. I absolutely agree with using those.

[mliss]

I wanted to comment on the OP's original post.  I had a similar experience a few months ago when I thumbed through a couple books the girls at church were reading recreationally.  I was completely taken aback to find that the content was years behind DD's current reading level.  I too must live in a bubble because until then I thought DD was maybe slightly ahead of her peers.

 

In all fairness, what other girls are currently reading doesn't matter one whit, and what my children are currently reading doesn't matter either.  It was just weird though.  To find myself so out of touch that I had no clue what "normal" looked like.  Somehow it made me feel disconnected.

 

 

 

I have a friend who has stated that she's glad her DD is average. Her DD is a sweet, caring, lovable kid who is a happy B average student in a regular PS classroom, reads on grade level, and scores right about in the 50% on all standardized tests. She's not a stand out dancer, not a stand out soccer or softball player, and is generally liked, but not the most popular kid in her class. She's right about at the 50% of weight and height, is attractive but not beautiful, and is just plain a great kid. Parent conferences are easy, report card time brings no surprises. There are no IEPs, no having to advocate, no extra doctor's appointments.

 

 

There's a lot to be said for average.

 

My two aren't even PG, but they are no where close to being 50% kids.  Actually, trying to keep DD and DS appropriately challenged and supplemented means I'm exhausted all the time.  It's been going on so long I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a different parenting experience. 

 

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I mean, who started a conversation with "Actually, my kid is absolutely average. In everything. Mediocre, you could say" :)

I could be misunderstanding, but I absolutely wish that I could say this about my son. He wishes that he could say this. I had actual therapy appointments as a child due to suicide attempts over wanting to be normal so badly that I hated myself.

 

That is not what the thread is about, so I'm not going to go much further, but yes, I know quite a few parents of PG kids or who were PG themselves that would give quite almost anything to be able to say their kid is mediocre.

 

It does not mean that I do not love my child, nor does it mean we sit around harping on being wierd, but when you fall extremely to either side of the bell curve you are eliminated from huge portions of society. It has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with being different. My son is not smart, he thinks differently. He is what is defined as weird. Fitting in is learned behavior he struggles at. You place him in a group of other kids his age and you can watch him crutch scenarios on how to interact, not behave, but interact. I understand that is extremely difficult for people who seem to pick up on such things through immersion, or who do not see the world in variables. That doesn't make such things not exist merely because they are outside the realm of your personal experience.

[madteaparty]

I don't think I've spoken about pg kids, other that acknowledging up thread that that's a different ballgame. And now, off this thread and this entire board and back into my very own bubble :)

[wapiti]

No, the cutoffs here are based on CogAT, a group test for IQ.

 

Just to be precise, the CogAT is not an IQ test, but an ability screening test (and not a particularly accurate one at that, according to the anectodal experiences of people I know).

[Spring Flower]

I have a friend who has stated that she's glad her DD is average. Her DD is a sweet, caring, lovable kid who is a happy B average student in a regular PS classroom, reads on grade level, and scores right about in the 50% on all standardized tests. She's not a stand out dancer, not a stand out soccer or softball player, and is generally liked, but not the most popular kid in her class. She's right about at the 50% of weight and height, is attractive but not beautiful, and is just plain a great kid. Parent conferences are easy, report card time brings no surprises. There are no IEPs, no having to advocate, no extra doctor's appointments.

 

 

There's a lot to be said for average.

 

I consider myself very average. Just as you describe here. My husband and kids are not. As I'm becoming more familiar with the world they live in, I see how difficult and complex it can be. I never would have guessed. All through school, I lived with the belief that smart people had it easy. Boy was I wrong.

[Kerileanne99]

I have a friend who has stated that she's glad her DD is average. Her DD is a sweet, caring, lovable kid who is a happy B average student in a regular PS classroom, reads on grade level, and scores right about in the 50% on all standardized tests. She's not a stand out dancer, not a stand out soccer or softball player, and is generally liked, but not the most popular kid in her class. She's right about at the 50% of weight and height, is attractive but not beautiful, and is just plain a great kid. Parent conferences are easy, report card time brings no surprises. There are no IEPs, no having to advocate, no extra doctor's appointments.

 

 

There's a lot to be said for average.

I have a confession: I secretly hope that when this 2nd child in born he turns out to be a bit more...average. I believe in the ability of even tiny tots to learn a tremendous amount, if they are interested and having fun. I love sharing that knowledge/teaching young kids through games and play, and am sure we will do lots of that. But Alex has just been such a wild train ride! I am constantly exhausted, and whilst I love and adore her just the way she is? Wow, sometimes it seems like other moms have it soooo much easier:)

And I am tired of having my stomach in knots when we are in public because she stand out so much-whether it be because of things she says/does that shock others with her level of whatever, or shock others with behavior that is a result of completely asynchronous/intensity issues.

I am tired:) I want things for Alex that are probably not ever going to happen, at least not for a long while. Right now average is looking and sounding really nice.

[ebunny]

I could be misunderstanding, but I absolutely wish that I could say this about my son. He wishes that he could say this. I had actual therapy appointments as a child due to suicide attempts over wanting to be normal so badly that I hated myself.

 

That is not what the thread is about, so I'm not going to go much further, but yes, I know quite a few parents of PG kids or who were PG themselves that would give quite almost anything to be able to say their kid is mediocre.

 

/snip

 

 

I agree, and this does not help my cynicism. It's simply a slightly better than arbitrary way to apportion limited resources; see: NYC public kindergarten programs. I think it's also another expression of middle class angst (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person), similar to the sports crazy someone mentioned upthread.

I mean, who started a conversation with "Actually, my kid is absolutely average. In everything. Mediocre, you could say" :)

 

 

Not to pick on the quoted posters, but so I don't misunderstand the intention of the bolded sentences...

 

There is a difference between the words 'Average' and 'Mediocre', yes? Average is a statistical and therefore measurable term and and 'mediocre' is a subjective term which is often regarded as a pejorative. Do we agree on this difference of meaning?

 

Calling a child 'average' depending on the abilities/skills/aptitudes is plausible because it is measurable and objective, but I hope no one calls their children (or others) mediocre. That'll be unfortunate.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I meant mediocre in terms of ordinary.  Not good nor bad.  Not exceptional.  Just middle of the road.  There was no subjective intention as those sorts of things greatly bother me.  There is no way to insure that my connotation is anyone else's connotation.  As this post so greatly emphasizes.

 

Living in mediocrity to me is not something negative, nor does it to mean that something is less than desirable.  That is exactly what I am getting at.  To me the state of ordinary does not indicate something subjective that is negative.  It does for many, but from where I am standing in our life mediocre and ordinary and even less than desirable is a very desirable thing.  Not shoot for the stars, blow up the moon, over the top.  Just tiny, quiet, little life.  Just go to every day job, have every day dreams, married to every day person, fail often, overcome just as much, keep on plugging along life. Someone which no one looks twice at.

 

That is irony of the whole situation.  That is the bubble.

 

It is the very reason that I mentioned that I loved my son.  I love him so much that I really actually want him to crash and burn more often.  I want him to struggle. I love him and I want him to feel completely and wholly in the lower middle of the pack, not the top.

[ebunny]

I meant mediocre in terms of ordinary.  Not good nor bad.  Not exceptional.  Just middle of the road.  There was no subjective intention as those sorts of things greatly bother me.  There is no way to insure that my connotation is anyone else's connotation.  As this post so greatly emphasizes.

 

Living in mediocrity to me is not something negative, nor does it to mean that something is less than desirable.  That is exactly what I am getting at.  To me the state of ordinary does not indicate something subjective that is negative.  It does for many, but from where I am standing in our life mediocre and ordinary and even less than desirable is a very desirable thing.  Not shoot for the stars, blow up the moon, over the top.  Just tiny, quiet, little life.  Just go to every day job, have every day dreams, married to every day person, fail often, overcome just as much, keep on plugging along life. Someone which no one looks twice at.

 

That is irony of the whole situation.  That is the bubble.

 

It is the very reason that I mentioned that I loved my son.  I love him so much that I really actually want him to crash and burn more often.  I want him to struggle. I love him and I want him to feel completely and wholly in the lower middle of the pack, not the top.

 

Aaah..I understand. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

[EndOfOrdinary]

For the record, I'm terrible at connotation.  I am trying to learn more.  MCT is actually helping a bit.

[Mike in SA]

I have a confession: I secretly hope that when this 2nd child in born he turns out to be a bit more...average. I believe in the ability of even tiny tots to learn a tremendous amount, if they are interested and having fun. I love sharing that knowledge/teaching young kids through games and play, and am sure we will do lots of that. But Alex has just been such a wild train ride! I am constantly exhausted, and whilst I love and adore her just the way she is? Wow, sometimes it seems like other moms have it soooo much easier:)

And I am tired of having my stomach in knots when we are in public because she stand out so much-whether it be because of things she says/does that shock others with her level of whatever, or shock others with behavior that is a result of completely asynchronous/intensity issues.

I am tired:) I want things for Alex that are probably not ever going to happen, at least not for a long while. Right now average is looking and sounding really nice.

 

I get your feeling completely, but you might be surprised.

 

DS #1 has been very, very intense.  DS #2 has been an absolute blessing, not only because he is so easy going, but also because he is possibly even more intelligent.  Being alone as a child is brutal.  DS #2 is the best friend DS #1 could have hoped for.  He is the only kid we know who fully "gets" his older brother.  DS #2 is none the worse for wear, and neither are we as parents.

 

But, I have to admit, the fear of another intense child has been enough to keep us holding at two.

[saw]

When we adopted ds8 after 3 non-average bio kids, I thought the odds were in favor of getting an "average" child, who would do well in life thanks to a nurturing environment and complete acceptance of whatever he turned out to be. It didn't work out that way. DS8 is just as non-average as his sibs and is musically the most gifted of the four, who are all seriously gifted musically. Argh. And while I"m happy and excited for the opportunities this gives ds, I have a bit of that "oh no not again" feeling.

 

I am, of course, attributing ds8's abilities entirely to my excellent nurturing and am now firmly on the side of nurture not nature.