Question for those with education major students

[Only me]

My daughter is an education major. She will have a double major (early childhood education and elementary education) and a minor in Spanish. She has now been told that she won't be graduating until spring of 2016, which means it will have taken her 5 1/2 years for a bachelor degree! Is this common?

 

The one difference I see at her school is that they require one more tier of student experience. First they have classroom observation/field experience. Then they have a semester of novice teaching. She will need this for each major. It is a step before student teaching. She will have some responsibility for lesson plans and teaching but not 100%. It is M-F from 8-11. After that she will have a semester of student teaching. It seems like a lot but we did not expect it to take this long.

 

Her advisor has not been helpful since day one and already cost us quite a bit of money by telling dd to sign up for the wrong class. She took a history class but she needed a particular one for education majors. We were told there was nothing they could do since it was a requirement for her major. They also have a very confusing document that gives requirements for graduation. It's very hard to follow. It also seems like the requirements keep on changing and they add new things. She went to cc her first year and was told that she fulfilled the English requirement for Gen ed. Now they are saying she needs another class. Her advisor will tell her something one time and something else another time. I told my dd she needs to get something in writing listing her remaining classes. I have the feeling her advisor won't cooperate. At what point would you step in? We are paying for her college, although she has some small student loans. I know dd is an adult but she doesn't seem to be getting any cooperation and doesn't know who to talk to.

[bettyandbob]

The state schools in my state do not have undergrad ed degrees anymore. They do have 5 year BS plus MEd programs. To get it all done in 5 years you have to enter the program as a freshman. The undergrad degree can be in any subject, but the student concurrently takes prereqs needed for education.

 

When I did my MEd (25 years ago) I had to do an observation semester (practicum, it was called) and then a student teaching semester. My MEd program with designed as a 15 month program.

 

So, 5 years to finish doesn't surprise me, but it's odd that it's set up so she can't be finishing a Masters in that time.

 

If she's having that much trouble determining final requirements, I might consider telling her to see someone over the advisor in her program. I don't think I, as a parent, would get involved. Is there a dean or assistant dean  in the education program she can see.

[Lolly]

No, that does not sound normal. First thing I would do is encourage her to drop the early childhood. There is too much overlap between the two degrees, and the early childhood only adds preschool into the equation. If she wants to work with young kids, she can try for K when she is looking for a job. If she wants to work with younger, she can probably find work in a daycare (and they don't usually require a degree). Bad advisors seem rampant. (I'm regretting dropping that hat myself with my eldest...)

[kiana]

Get stuff in writing from the advisor.

 

Doing 5.5 years for a double major + minor doesn't seem that unreasonable, but getting told different things at different times is unreasonable. 

[elegantlion]

Does the undergraduate catalog have a listing of what is actually required for the major? My school has a simple form to download for all majors & minors, kind of like a pre-made transcript. We have to sign the form and it has a school year on it. We are bound to the major for that year, in case requirements change in the time we are there. They also have advisors that will sit down and help you outline all your years, as it can get confusing with pre-reqs and classes not offered every semester. You might see if her school has a program like that, it's not through our regular advisors. 

5 and half years doesn't sound unusual for a double major, especially if you are counting the one year of CC, where not everything may transfer, or even if all classes transfer, they may not satisfy specific degree requirements.

 

However, usually, when you declare your major, the major requirements are fixed then.  Any changes to requirements should only impact students who have not yet declared.  And she should certainly get the major requirements in writing, and check off those that she's completed, and bring this list in to her regularly scheduled meetings with her adviser.

[Tokyomarie]

Five years to finish an education major is now fairly typical because of increasing state requirements for licensure/certification. One of my children was encouraged to consider an education major and was told at the outset that it would take 5 years. She wasn't keen on teaching in a public school classroom, so didn't go that route, but the 5 year plan comments stuck in my mind. Also, I would expect the double major to add time.

 

The shifting advice from the advisor is not cool and should not be expected. I would encourage a student in that situation to find someone else at the university- the dean of the department or, perhaps, someone in the registrar's office to sit down with the student to go over the requirements as they are laid out in the catalog for the year in which she entered the program. Many colleges now have online degree audits where courses taken or transferred in are mapped to degree requirements. If your daughter's school doesn't have that available, she can probably get a degree audit done through the registrar's office to settle where she stands at this point.  

[Reefgazer]

I agree this is the best protection against an incompetent/misinformed advisor.  But if the college changes their requirements mid-stream and won't grandfather her in, she is SOL.  This happened to a student of mine.  She had requirements in writing, but the college changed the requirements mid-degree, and then wouldn't honor her original requirements, even after she complained to the provost.

Get stuff in writing from the advisor.

 

Doing 5.5 years for a double major + minor doesn't seem that unreasonable, but getting told different things at different times is unreasonable. 

 

[Penguin]

No, that does not sound normal. First thing I would do is encourage her to drop the early childhood. There is too much overlap between the two degrees, and the early childhood only adds preschool into the equation. If she wants to work with young kids, she can try for K when she is looking for a job. If she wants to work with younger, she can probably find work in a daycare (and they don't usually require a degree). Bad advisors seem rampant. (I'm regretting dropping that hat myself with my eldest...)

 

With regard to the bolded, we are going through this.  At a tiny school where are a minimal number of students and majors to keep track of.  It is frustrating.

 

ETA:  While I would not step in and directly advocate for my college-student-child, I would stay involved and walk her through advocating for herself, step-by-step if necessary. 

 

"Did you email X yet?"

"Have you had a reply from X yet?"

 

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just a couple FWIW.

 

I knew people who graduated in the early 1990s with education degrees who took 5 years because of the student teaching requirement.

 

I also had a not helpful advisor.  He didn't provide inaccurate information, but just wasn't particularly helpful.  For two years, I would go to one of my freshman year profs, whom I'd really liked.  We would discuss what I needed to do next, what the upcoming class offerings were, and even which profs I would most enjoy a class with.  Then I would take my course selections to the assigned advisor for the mandatory advising and required signature.

 

As an older (and sometimes wiser) person, I would now say that it is possible to ask for a different advisor.  It might or might not be worth it.  But it is probably possible.

 

As to the changing graduation requirements, I would also suggest going back to the year when she declared her majors and going through the degree requirements as they existed at that point.  I know that a college CAN change the degree requirements, but I also know that it's not uncommon to grandfather students in to the requirements when they start.  It would not be unreasonable for her to request to meet with someone higher up in the department, explaining that she is confused with her actual standing wrt the graduation and degree requirements. 

[kiana]

I agree this is the best protection against an incompetent/misinformed advisor.  But if the college changes their requirements mid-stream and won't grandfather her in, she is SOL.  This happened to a student of mine.  She had requirements in writing, but the college changed the requirements mid-degree, and then wouldn't honor her original requirements, even after she complained to the provost.

 

True, but most *will* grandfather -- but not if the reason is that the advisor suffered from elbow-and-backside syndrome, i.e. not knowing one from the other. 

When I was in college, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, my greatest resource wasn't the professors or advisors or deans or administrators (except for department secretaries, they really know everything).  My greatest resources were my peers in my major, especially those ahead of me. I don't mean to pick on the OP, but I see this often in these college threads, where it seems like no college student ever talks to their peers about this kind of thing.  Now, I wouldn't 100% rely on the opinion of any one student, but if you talk to many students, especially graduating seniors, you can get an immense amount of useful, practical information, about which professors to take classes from, what classes to take, ideas for minors, degree requirements, job prospects, internship or research opportunities, etc.  So, I would push this question back on the OP's dd:  how many years are her peers taking to graduate?  Are they not getting grandfathered into changing requirements?  How many of them are double majoring?

[Tsuga]

Sebastian's advice is sound.

 

She needs to meet with someone in the department.

 

You're paying, so I say you're the customer. I negotiated my own way through college but I also paid for it all. If your daughter is not sure whom to deal with, and you're paying money and she's wasting months of her life on courses that she neither needs nor which interest her, then you all need to sit down with somebody at the college and hash it out  until you have the requirements, as they were when she entered the program, in writing, and a plan for how to get those courses.

 

I have three degrees and I have never, ever had such bad advice as I hear people on here getting. I'm so sorry for all you are going through.

 

FWIW, I never went to advising. I got the list of requirements off the Internet (I started college in 1995 so it was possible, only just :) ), copied into Word with check boxes, printed it out, and checked them off one by one all by myself, re-checking the list and announcements every quarter and confirming with the registrar that I had it right when changes were made (probably twice throughout my college career).

 

I used to think it was a miracle that I graduated without help but I'm beginning to think, based on what I read here and elsewhere, that my avoidance of advisors might have been my saving grace!

 

Things were easier back then BUT sometimes I think advisors are just plain confused.

[Tsuga]

With regard to the bolded, we are going through this.  At a tiny school where are a minimal number of students and majors to keep track of.  It is frustrating.

 

ETA:  While I would not step in and directly advocate for my college-student-child, I would stay involved and walk her through advocating for herself, step-by-step if necessary. 

 

"Did you email X yet?"

"Have you had a reply from X yet?"

 

I would absolutely not e-mail. I'd demand a sit-down meeting, bring a paper list, and get it in writing then and there.

 

They will take her much more seriously if she's willing to park her behind in the office and wait until she gets a list of courses as they were when she started.

[Only me]

Dd met with her advisor again this week. It still looks like it will take 5 1/2 years but at least her advisor changed her mind about dd needing additional classes that dd didn't think she needed. Dd is supposed to write out an educational plan that they do before they start the novice teaching. It is supposed to list which classes she will take each semester and her advisor has to approve it. I told my dd to be sure to get a copy including her advisors signature as well as to make sure that there will be no more changes. Dd did talk to some classmates that are also taking longer than expected. I think that the additional step of novice teaching before the student teaching is what is prolonging everything. Does anyone know if you have to student teach in the same area as the university? I'm assuming that will be her only class that last semester. I'm wondering if she could student teach in our area and live at home. That would at least help a bit with living expenses. We will seriously owe as much as the cost of a house when she is done and we have two more to go.

 

At least my 2nd dd is getting her associates first and then transferring. We will also know what to ask before she commits to a certain college and be sure she knows how long it will take to graduate. We made a big mistake by not asking that upfront and just assuming it would be 4 years.

[bettyandbob]

 Does anyone know if you have to student teach in the same area as the university? I'm assuming that will be her only class that last semester. I'm wondering if she could student teach in our area and live at home. That would at least help a bit with living expenses. We will seriously owe as much as the cost of a house when she is done and we have two more to go.

 

 

Depends on the University. Some schools allow student teaching placements in other parts of the state and some do not. Your dd needs to check with the ed dept at her school.

[Hunter's Moon]

I suggest she try to get a different advisor -- either a professor that she respects, or she go to the head of the department and request a change.

 

Some advisors just shouldn't be advisors, but they fall into the position due to job obligations.

 

It is absolutely unacceptable that she was told certain classes would transfer, or that she was given incorrect course information that cost you/her money. Unfortunately, there isn't much in the way of recourse.

[Lolly]

Back when I did student teaching, your assigned professor for the class had to come and observe your teaching a few times, so I don't think it would be allowed to do it outside of the college area. It would just be too difficult on the observing college professor.

[Bootsie]

Do you know how many semester hours she has actually completed at this point and how many hours she is planning to take each semester between now and graduation?  I would encourage her to look at the relevant university catalog (probably the year in which she declared her major) to see what the requirements are for her first major.  Then, I would encourage her to look and see how much extra she is adding on by doing a double major and a minor.  Sometimes these simply add on additional hours which make a student take longer (and often that time would be better spent either working or put towards a masters degree rather than choosing to get a double major).  Or, it could be that a minor such as Spanish requires a particular sequence of courses from one level to the next requiring extra semesters if a student did not begin the sequence upon entering college. 

 

Has she been a double major with a Spanish minor since she started at the university?  Sometimes a change in the requirements occurs because the student added a minor or major after beginning and that new major or minor pushes them into the requirements of a new catalog.

[Caroline]

Back when I did student teaching, your assigned professor for the class had to come and observe your teaching a few times, so I don't think it would be allowed to do it outside of the college area. It would just be too difficult on the observing college professor.

I agree with Lolly. When I have had a student teacher, the professor had to do four observations. That wouldn't work if the student weren't near the university.

[Only me]

Has she been a double major with a Spanish minor since she started at the university? Sometimes a change in the requirements occurs because the student added a minor or major after beginning and that new major or minor pushes them into the requirements of a new catalog.

Yes she had the double major since she started there. She did transfer in as a sophomore though. She took 4 years of high school Spanish and placed high into the sequence of needed classes for her minor.

[Lolly]

What would her timeline look like if she dropped one of the two majors? Why is she doing both?

 

Elementary Ed generally goes K-6 or even 8. Early chidhood is Pre-3. There is just so much overlap. I have never heard of anyone recommending doing both. It is definitely not worth the $. If she is really wanting to go Preschool, she should concentrate on it. If not, Elementary makes more sense. 

[Bootsie]

My daughter is an education major. She will have a double major (early childhood education and elementary education) and a minor in Spanish. She has now been told that she won't be graduating until spring of 2016, which means it will have taken her 5 1/2 years for a bachelor degree! Is this common?

 

The one difference I see at her school is that they require one more tier of student experience. First they have classroom observation/field experience. Then they have a semester of novice teaching. She will need this for each major. It is a step before student teaching. She will have some responsibility for lesson plans and teaching but not 100%. It is M-F from 8-11. After that she will have a semester of student teaching. It seems like a lot but we did not expect it to take this long.

 

So, is the issue more of a sequencing issue than a number of courses issue?  From your post, I am assuming that she still needs:

 

Spring 2015  Classroom observation/field experience

Fall 2015  Novice Teaching

Spring 2016  Student teaching

 

If those three items can't overlap--that will definitely lead to three more semesters.  

 

Since that puts her at 5 1/2 years, did she begin college in a spring semester, rather than in a fall semester?  In some extreme cases that could cause a delay because of course sequencing, but I have rarely seen that happen.  

 

The main questions that I would be asking are:

 

1)  How many hours has she completed?

2)  How many hours are required for her majors and minor?

 

The first question should be easy to determine--it should be on her records and transcript.  The second question might be a bit more tricky to answer if she is doing a minor that is housed in a different college from her major, but it should be information readily available from the university.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Would the university accept summer school experience for either the classroom observation or the novice teaching.   This might not save money.  I know people who no longer have their kids take summer school courses from their university because it worked out as more expensive than a regular semester (tuition by credit, plus needing to pay for a place to live since the dorm was not available).

 

Also, has she looked at the courses required for licensure in the states she'd like to teach in?  When I got my MS Ed, there were some courses that were required to earn the MS.  But there were also courses that I needed to take in order to be licensed in the state.  Some of these were methods courses, but others were courses in various subject areas.  Even though I had a BS in English, I had to take another English course and an earth science course in order to have the courses needed for licensure in middle school level English and science.  But when I was done, I could have been licensed in English, science and math.

 

So she might be better off dropping the early childhood degree and ensuring that she has the subject courses that she needs to teach in the areas she's interested in. 

 

The other thought is that she may find that earning a master's is better for payscale reasons than having the double degree.  So she might want to see if she could do an integrated MS Ed program in the same time, or consider saving the money spent on the second degree to use later towards a graduate degree.

 

Just a couple thoughts.