9th grade dual enrollment--2 online classes or 4 in-person classes?

[Bristayl]

For dual enrollment next fall when in 9th grade, my dd will have the option of taking 1 online class per semester from a 4-year (not very selective) university, or 2 in-person classes per semester at a small community college. I am trying to figure out which option would be better.

 

Advantages of the in-person option:

--taking 4 classes in 9th grade would make it so she could take all future DE classes during long semesters and not have to take any compressed summer or minimester classes

--some people say online classes can be difficult as one's first DE experience, especially for younger students

 

Advantages of the online option:

--I would not have to spend 40-80 minutes driving (depending on whether I returned home while she was in class) two days per week 

--I would not have to take ds (who will be 11) with me and try to find a place to do school with him while waiting

--she would have another year to mature before being in a classroom with older students (she will turn 15 in Oct of 9th grade)

 

Opinions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Muttichen]

Four DE classes seems like a lot for a ninth grader.  We always did one in ninth grade, with a friend.

[G5052]

At the community colleges where I teach, you can't take more than one in your first semester if you're under 16.  So check on the policies.

 

Also keep in mind that the quality of online courses varies widely, and some students don't learn well with online education.  A much higher percentage of students fail online classes versus face-to-face.

 

Philosophies vary, but we didn't do dual enrollment until later on in high school, and we started with only one face-to-face class in an area of strength.  

[JanetC]

It sounds like you really don't want to do the driving, but online classes are not always best, either.  Agree with G5052 that there are a lot of kids that fail online classes.  Students either are not self-disciplined enough and fall behind, or they are not self-aware enough to realize when they are not learning deeply.

 

Could your 11 y.o. stay home for a couple hours while you take DD to class?

 

Is having DD learn at home another year an option?  Or public transportation?  Or online high school level classes from a homeschool-friendly vendor (more hand-holding, with same-age peers, parent involvement welcome rather than suspect, etc.)

 

[Luckymama]

Why do the classes need to be DE? Are they free in your state? You might consider having your dd take one or two online high school classes from well-regarded providers.

 

I know, with a high degree of certainty, that the English class my ninth grader is taking (honors English 2 from Blue Tent Online) is more rigorous than a corresponding class from the community college or the semi-local non-selective university.

 

(I have friends who teach at both institutions. And I'm on my third high schooler.)

[Bristayl]

Four DE classes seems like a lot for a ninth grader.  We always did one in ninth grade, with a friend.

 

Yes, I may need to just plan on one class the first semester to see how it goes, even if we go with the face-to-face option.

 

 

At the community colleges where I teach, you can't take more than one in your first semester if you're under 16.  So check on the policies.

 

 

They do allow two classes, but perhaps I should not do that right away.

 

 

Could your 11 y.o. stay home for a couple hours while you take DD to class?

 

He probably would be mature enough by then--we'll have to see!

 

 

Why do the classes need to be DE? Are they free in your state? You might consider having your dd take one or two online high school classes from well-regarded providers.

 

 

I would like the classes to be DE because I want the college credit.

 

 

 

 

There is a closer 4-year university and a closer community college that I plan to use later on for face-to-face classes, but they generally don't take students younger than 11th grade. Although I am thinking of using the 9th grade DE and test scores to see if I can convince one of them to let her start there as a 10th grader.

[JanetC]

Please have a stronger reason than "I want her to receive college credit" before putting a young student in a college class.

 

If you are not able to get her academic needs met using what worked for you at younger ages, by all means head off to college in 9th grade.  But don't see it as a race to get college credit as soon as possible.

[Grantmom]

Has she taken any classes before?  Is she taking any now for 8th grade?  I think only you know your child and your situation, but we are doing outsourced classes for the first time this year for ninth grade, all from places that are designed for high school classes, and it has been a great fit.  It has been a great transition to having other teachers/tests/grades/following someone else's schedule, etc.

[Bootsie]

Some would depend upon what the courses are.  I think some courses lend themselves to being offered online much better than other courses do.  

[Lori D.]

Since you asked for opinions… :)

 

My opinion: from our own experiences with dual enrollment, and from having read of the experiences of many others on this Board, I would suggest weighing a few additional pros and cons, beyond those you listed, before deciding.

 

 

Ninth grade is very young for DE; some more things to consider:

 

- Has DD been working independently already?

- Has DD been doing advanced high school level work in middle school, so she will be prepared to step up to meet the faster pace and larger volume of material covered by a college level course?

- How mature/advanced is DD in self-discipline, study skills, test-taking, time management, studying from texts, writing papers, etc., required for college class success?

- How motivated is DD to do this? (this is a HUGE factor for success)

- Does she have a specific plan/goal that the DE is moving her towards? (also very helpful for keeping on when the going gets tough)

 

 

It looks like accruing college credit while still in high school is one of the goals. More things to consider specifically regarding that goal:

 

- Will the specifically DE credits transfer and be accepted at whatever university DD attends after high school graduation? (some community college credits do not transfer to universities)

- Will the transfer credits count towards the 4-year degree (some universities will only accept the transfer credits as "electives")

- What specific degree program at what university is DD thinking of doing? (DE may end up NOT reducing the amount of time getting a 4-year degree, as more universities are moving towards degree programs that lock a student into a full 4 years, with required classes only offered once per year, or pre-requisites that must be taken only at the school)

- For the university DD attends after high school: what is the policy re: maximum transfer credits to still be considered a freshman? (important if you want to be able to apply for scholarships, as the vast majority of scholarships, esp. renewable or 4-year scholarships are only awarded to freshman; there is far less scholarship money awarded to transfer students)

- Would AP or CLEP accomplish the goal of college credit and be a better fit for the student and the family at this time? (both would allow DD to learn and study at home and then go and test -- AP, depending on the score and the university, may/may not award college credit; CLEP is college testing for credit, but without a GPA attached, accepted by many, but not all, colleges)

 

 

Some general things to keep in mind about DE:

 

- Any outsourcing (whether DE or other), puts you on someone else's schedule for the semester.

- DE must come first, in front of homeschooling work, to ensure success; that usually means having to reduce the homeschooling load to make room for the extra time for commuting, class time, studying, doing the papers/projects, etc. in order to do well with the DE.

- Are there any extracurriculars or special interests DD would like to explore in high school? Early DE sometimes limits or eliminates those due to time and money constraints.

- College courses contain adult material, whether online or in-person; a student doing dual enrollment needs to be mature enough to handle the topics that may potentially be discussed.

- Students should seek help immediately if they start falling behind or not getting a concept, as classes build on one another and move at a brisk pace. Usually there are free tutoring services available through the library.

- Be sure to know the deadline and policies for withdrawing from a class, if it becomes necessary -- a "W", while not ideal, is not the end of the world, and while it does show up on the permanent transcript, it carries no GPA.

- Grades are on the student's permanent college transcript. Poor grades will follow the student and reduce chances for merit aid and consideration for special programs later on.

- Grades and college credits from DE cannot be "hidden" from a future university (i.e., not show them on your homeschool transcript) -- when applying to a university, they require official transcripts from all past colleges, in addition to the homescool high school transcript.

- Scholarships and financial aid are not available for DE -- those are for regular college students (i.e., graduated from high school). However, you may have a free or reduced rate DE option in your area.

 

 

Things to keep in mind about why online classes are often more difficult for students:

 

- Most have no "live" component (either lecture or discussion).

- There is often little teacher help, and no office hours.

- There is no accountability help, reminders, or ability to ask questions at regular class meetings.

- It requires a lot of self-discipline and responsibility, as it is all on the student to check daily for any changes, new deadlines/assignments, participate in required discussions, upload assignments, etc.

 

 

Certainly 9th graders can do DE and succeed. :) I know of 2 local homeschoolers who started DE in 9th grade at age 14; they needed the challenge and they did well. However, both were advanced and were taking only 1 course in an area of their strength to start with. I also know (older) homeschoolers who did not do well in their first semester of DE -- one ended up with a "D" in his first outing with a foreign language (did not seek help when he started to fall behind), and another found the pace too quick and so had to withdraw (she tried again the following semester and did well after that "false start"). Most of the local homeschoolers I know who have done DE are 11th or 12th grade when they start; most start with 1, *maybe* 2, classes the first semester, do well, and slowly increase the course load. Some handle all DE courses in 12th grade.

 

You have lots of time ahead of you! :) Even if you don't do any DE until 11th grade, your DD would still be able to knock out a good chunk of college credits in those last 2 years of high school. :) And, by waiting, DD will likely have a much clearer college goal in mind, so the credits can be selected to count specifically towards a future degree.

 

If you are not 100% sure that DD is ready for DE, or that the specific community college or university is not of high quality, you might conside outsourcing some coursework in 9th grade in a different way -- a rigorous online class, or a local AP class, studying prep material for a CLEP, etc. -- and use that experience as a stepping stone and practice for moving into DE when the time, and the school, are right.

 

BEST of luck as you research what fits best with the long-range future plans, and what would be the best fit for DD now. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Pawz4me]

I don't think there's any right or wrong answer.

 

Is there some reason (other than acquiring credits) that she needs to start off with two classes?  The "safe" way to go might be to start with just one class and see how that goes.  Also, what does her course load at home look like?

 

If she really needs both classes, maybe consider one online and one in-person to give her experience with each format?

 

My youngest DS is in an early college high school program, so he went from being home schooled from second through eighth grades to taking two community college classes in his first semester of high school.  He didn't have much problem with transitioning other than the usual adjustment to any new routine.  During his first semester one of his classes was online and one was an in-person class.  His biggest issue wasn't with the work or the class being online or live, it was learning to deal with deadlines w/o procrastinating.  There were several nights he was scrambling at 11:30 to make a midnight submission deadline.  Of course procrastinating isn't unusual among college students of any age.  Thankfully he learned quickly that wasn't much fun. ;)

 

Good luck in your decision.

[8filltheheart]

No one can answer the question other than your dd. The questions I would be asking are how strong of a student is she and how self-disciplined/responsible is she. I would also really want to be sure that this is something she is eager to do. I personally wouldn't DE my 9th graders, but if she is driving the decision it is more likely to be a better experience than if she is reluctant.

 

Grades from DE will follow her forever. No one will look at her grades and give her slack for her age. The grades will have to be reported to every school she applies to in the future.

 

From a personal perspective, our oldest dd detested all online classes. She is the type of learner that needs the classroom experience and the opportunity to ask questions face to face. She did ok with hybrid classes (partially online/partially classroom), but given the option, she would always choose classroom courses.

[Bristayl]

Thanks for the good input, everyone! To respond to some of it without multiquoting everyone:

 

We do have a specific degree plan in mind and have researched transferability. We plan to do some CLEPs in addition to DE. If the degree/college changes, the transferability will not be perfect but most should still transfer if she stays in-state. If she chooses to go out of state and more of the credits do not transfer, I will not be upset since I think that it will still be valuable for her to have learned to function in a college environment while still at home.

 

She is doing high school level work in middle school for all her subjects. Her science and psychology courses in particular are helping her learn to study from a textbook, take tests, etc.

So we are working on those skills. The psych course she is doing is intended to prepare for the AP exam, although we will be doing the CLEP instead. That will be her first CLEP so we can see how it goes before deciding whether to do more CLEPs or focus more on DE.

 

This year she is doing an outside Public Speaking class and that has been really good. She hasn't done any outsourced online classes yet. I am not really interested in paying for high school level outside classes that wouldn't get college credit; I would rather she get the credit now and not have to repeat some of the same subjects at full tuition later.

 

She is on board with the plan but a couple of the concerns you have brought up about her being on the young side and there being adult material are issues that we are still thinking through. We will be sitting down together (she and I and my husband) to discuss all the pros and cons before making a final decision.

 

Even though I have researched this a lot already, I always enjoy getting feedback from this board because often someone mentions something that I hadn't thought about yet. So that is why I am putting this question out there--in case there are issues I should be taking into consideration about that haven't yet come to my attention!

 

 

 

 

[GoodGrief]

You've received a lot of good advice.  I had/have one of those kids that was doing high school work in middle school, so I can relate to the difficulty of figuring out the high school plan in that circumstance!  That child is a junior now, and I have an older one in her 2nd year of college, who did dual enrollment for her senior year of high school, with a full time load of college classes.

 

One thing to consider in accumulation of a lot of college credits in high school is that scholarship opportunities are different for transfer students than they are for new freshman.  You might save some money getting credits now, though it could come out a wash financially, depending on what scholarships are available at any given college.  Other people have mentioned the concern about grades, and it is a real one, again, depending on what college you hope to have your child attend, and what the expectations are.

 

For what it's worth, my highly gifted junior has only done one college course so far, a math course (Calc 2).  We will continue to utilize the university for math, but unlikely for anything else.  AP classes have been a nice challenge that work for our schedule, and offer the possibility of college credit, again, depending on the school.  She also has a heavy extracurric load, which challenges her in non-academic ways.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Without knowing all the specifics of your dd's situation, I'll share some of what our current experience is.

 

Both of my older sons have very good test scores (high 90s percentile) and were doing high school level reading in 7th and 8th grade.

 

Last year I taught them AP American Government and AP Comparative Government.  One got two 4's and the other got a 4 and a 5.

 

This year the 11th grader started taking math at the local community college.

 

Pro:  He's learning math from someone who knows it inside and out.  I have taken calculus, but it's been a really long time.  Because I don't work with it daily, it takes me a while to get up to speed on the topic he's working with.  Also I have no experience with a graphing calculator.

 

Pro:  He's learning incredible lessons about needing to stay on top of assignments, how to read a syllabus (after he assumed a few things that were not true), how to use the online Math homework program that the class uses for all of the assignments.

 

Con: His class is M/W/F with very few days off for holidays.  This meant that when dh had some vacation time, we couldn't pack up and leave town, because he would have missed class.  It also means that we have no good days for field trips or taking a day to go to the zoo or to a museum.  (Both T/TH have other conflicts.)

 

Con:  The homework pace is relentless.  If it doesn't get done, it will just be a zero.  If too many don't get done, then the class grade will suffer.  The corollary to this is that the math class takes precedence over EVERYTHING else. Even the AP class that I'm trying to teach in European History.  Even the AP Computer Science class he is doing online that is self paced.

 

Con:  There is some real pressure on him, because he knows this grade is permanent.  OK, this is also a Pro, in the sense that it is really a maturing moment for him.  But his ability to perform to this level as a 16 yo is very different from how I think he would have handled the pressure as a 14 year old.

 

Pro/Con:  Some lessons are well learned, but painfully.  The first in class test, ds misunderstood part of the directions (his fault) and thought that he didn't have to show his work.  But that meant that he lost 20-25 points on problems that he made small calculation errors in.  Had he shown his work, he would have had an A on the test. Instead he had a C.  Now, he'll probably never make that mistake again.  And I'm glad he's learning it (finally) as a high schooler and not as a college student with a scholarship on the line.  At the same time, if he doesn't end well, that final grade will be with him at every turn. 

 

 

I think that one has to consider what the overall goals are and how each and every class will help the student achieve those goals.  The math class instructor has mixed reviews on Rate My Professor.  But I'd say overall that we've been pleased.  He seems to be pretty on top of things, and met with ds after the first  test to go over the problems.  I also like that there is a mix of online homework (where there is immediate feedback on if the answer is right or not) and handing in the work for each homework problem (which requires him to show his work and do it neatly).

 

On the other hand, I looked at some of the books for English and history classes and wasn't that impressed.  The English classes often had books that I consider pretty sub par.  In fact the editions of Shakespeare used were the No Fear editions that I refuse to hand my kids because I want them to work through the actual Shakespearian language, not skimming the bowdlerized paraphrases.

 

I think that each family has to decide what works best in their situation.  It took me many weeks and about 4 trips to the CC to get things set up.  And for the math class it's been worth it.  But it would not have been worth it when he was a freshman.  Do check with your individual school.  Even in my local area, there are several different CC systems.  Some allow many high school students; one doesn't allow any (because classes are already over full); one allows high schoolers with some restictions.  There was an assessment and some extra hoops to go through as homeschoolers (for example, I created a transcript, which came in handy when the assessment center was placing ds).

 

For English, history, and government, I'm still confident that I can offer a really good course.  For science, I want them to learn fundamentals, not just get tossed into the college setting before they are ready for it.  For languages, I've outsourced Lukeion for Latin (which is great) and Oklahoma State University for German (which I do like and recommend, but with which we've had mixed success).

 

One son is using Lukeion for classical literature in translation and it has been very high caliber.  That same son is doing a Korean history/politics/culture class through Stanford (high caliber but not for college credit).  The other son is doing AP Computer Science through Amplify. 

 

In some of these cases they will not be automatically getting college credit, even though the courses are very demanding.  There may be an AP test to take.  Or it may just be a demanding course without a corresponding college credit.

 

There are some folks here who have had kids start at college at younger high school grades.  But in most of the cases that come to mind, the student was doing exceptional work.  I would not assume that the standard ninth grader, not even one who is a strong student is necessarily ready for college work, or the way that a college class is structured.  I do think that there are some amazing options out there for challenging high school work via online classes, especially some that have web chat formats so that there is a classroom give and take atmosphere.

 

I remember when my kids were younger that I commonly heard people say that when their kids hit high school or math that they couldn't teach, they would just put them in the local community college.  In fact, it is something that I said myself.  But now that we are at that point, I see that it is a more complex decision that I'd anticipated back then.  And I think that you have to be open eyed about both the demands of the CC class and the possible shortcomings of it.  It can't be assumed that the average homeschool high school student is ready to just step into the CC campus and excel right out of the gate. 

[Bristayl]

Thanks for sharing your experiences!  

 

In our situation, she would still be going into the eventual four-year college as a freshman even after accumulating dual credit.

 

I believe she would be ready academically for college-level classes. I am a little hesitant for her to actually be in a classroom with older students at the age she will be, hence the appeal of the online option. However, the university from which she would take the online classes is far away enough that she could not take advantage of tutoring or supplemental instruction if she needed it, and if the professor did not respond to questions by email, she would not be able to go to in-person office hours. 

 

It sounds like I probably should have her take just one class the first semester regardless of whether it is online or face-to-face.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Is it possible to take one substantial class and one lesser class?  I mean lesser like PE or health.  There are often a stack of very fun PE classes which are offered.  Health often has some interesting options as well, but very minimal actual work other than reading or viewing.  In this way she would still be acquiring distribution credits since darn near most AA's need a health and PE, but it would not be a much heavier load.

 

She could try it, and if it was horrific, not do it again next semester. 

[Bristayl]

Thanks for the idea! She will not be going for an AA and doesn't need a health or PE class. I was thinking of doing something like English Comp and Music Appreciation the first semester, in the hopes that Music Appreciation would qualify as a "lighter" class. It would certainly not be as light as a 1-credit PE class, though.

[EndOfOrdinary]

If she is not accumulating an AA, but still matriculating to a four year, then why exactly do the community college?  Even in state, our state colleges accept very few CC credits without the formal degree.  I know that we have considered the AA just so that my son has another degree since the four years he is considering do not accept any transfer credits from CC's. 

 

What is she wanting to do with the credits?  That could drastically change the number of credits and the significance of the classes.

 

I might have missed this when I scrolled through up thread.  Sorry if I did...

[GoodGrief]

I think one class would be a great way to dip your toe in the pool  :-)

[Bristayl]

If she is not accumulating an AA, but still matriculating to a four year, then why exactly do the community college?  Even in state, our state colleges accept very few CC credits without the formal degree. 

 

In this case, I have researched a number of potential colleges and they do not require an AA. In fact, I do not want her to have an AA because I want her to enter as a freshman, which she can as long as the credits were earned before high school graduation.

 

I am also planning on using four -year universities for some of the dual enrollment.

[Lori D.]

… I was thinking of doing something like English Comp and Music Appreciation the first semester...

 

Just an FYI:

 

Be sure to thoroughly research the specific instructor and what works will be required reading as part of the specific course you sign up for. Frequently, contemporary works with adult themes are used, and then discussed in class. (Yes, they do read Literature in the Comp. classes, so as to have something to write about.) Choice of Lit. varies widely from instructor to instructor, even for the same level of course.

 

The English/Writing classes, along with some of the social sciences such as Anthropology, Psychology, and Sociology, tend to have the most potential for adult material. However, it can pop up in unsuspected areas, such as Speech Communication or Political Science (depends on the instructor, or, choice of topic for presentation by classmates).

[Bristayl]

Yes, which is one frustration I have with this particular community college--I cannot find their syllabi online. For the other 4-year universities and community colleges that I am considering using, I am able to access most of their syllabi online and can see what materials they will be using.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, which is one frustration I have with this particular community college--I cannot find their syllabi online. For the other 4-year universities and community colleges that I am considering using, I am able to access most of their syllabi online and can see what materials they will be using.

I've often found syllabi by searching the course name and the instructor name.

Also a browse through the bookstore can really help you see what sort of material is used.

[Bristayl]

After complaining that I couldn't find the syllabi, I poked around on the website a little more and found them!

 

I am still leaning toward doing the online classes from the four-year university at this point, however.

[kiana]

Thanks for the idea! She will not be going for an AA and doesn't need a health or PE class. I was thinking of doing something like English Comp and Music Appreciation the first semester, in the hopes that Music Appreciation would qualify as a "lighter" class. It would certainly not be as light as a 1-credit PE class, though.

 

Music appreciation may not be light depending on the instructor.

 

One class is a better idea.

 

I would actually avoid health unless you really want her learning about sexual health in a college class at 14.