Please help!! Grade 6 math? (We used Singapore up til this point)

[tammyw]

I know there is an old thread on this, but I'm still confused and need to figure stuff out pretty quickly.

 

We've been very successful with Singapore so far (just finishing 5B in the next month).

 

I know we could do Singapore 6a/6b. But should we? Some people say yes, some say no. My daughter has had a tougher time with 5B, but otherwise she's always been fairly good at math (not genius but good).

 

It looks like a lot of others jump to AOPS?

 

Others go to Singapore Dimensions.

 

How do I decide? What are my other options? What are the pros and cons of each? This is the one area I'm feeling super confused about.

 

Thanks in advance for the hand holding!

[Crimson Wife]

A newer option, and one that is IMHO better for moms who need more teaching guidance than Singapore DM offers is Math in Focus Courses 1-3.

[tammyw]

A newer option, and one that is IMHO better for moms who need more teaching guidance than Singapore DM offers is Math in Focus Courses 1-3.

 

I'll look at that option. I definitely need teaching guidance.

 

I see everyone recommending Art of Problem Solving. How do I learn more about this? Is it a good option? I wish I could see all of the options in person before deciding.

 

Also, what about the upper level Life of Fred books. What should we consider there?

[Crimson Wife]

We have the LoF books from Fractions through Geometry. They are great supplements IMHO, but don't provide the rigor that I personally want for my kids.

 

AoPS is a great option for kids who enjoy learning by puzzling through problems. I anticipate my DS really liking them (he loves the Beast Academy books). But they would be a very bad "fit" for my oldest. She was working through Singapore DM 8A last semester but is taking a break to do a consumer math text. She very much prefers a more straightforward presentation where the book walks her through the concept before having her try practice problems.

[SkateLeft]

Personally, I'd recommend just finishing with 6a and 6b. If your daughter had breezed through 5b, then I'd recommend giving AoPS a try, but since you mentioned that she had a tougher time with 5b, I think she'd benefit more from finishing 6a and 6b.

[tammyw]

We have the LoF books from Fractions through Geometry. They are great supplements IMHO, but don't provide the rigor that I personally want for my kids.

 

AoPS is a great option for kids who enjoy learning by puzzling through problems. I anticipate my DS really liking them (he loves the Beast Academy books). But they would be a very bad "fit" for my oldest. She was working through Singapore DM 8A last semester but is taking a break to do a consumer math text. She very much prefers a more straightforward presentation where the book walks her through the concept before having her try practice problems.

 

Oh yes, I agree! Life of Fred simply as a supplement :)

[tammyw]

Personally, I'd recommend just finishing with 6a and 6b. If your daughter had breezed through 5b, then I'd recommend giving AoPS a try, but since you mentioned that she had a tougher time with 5b, I think she'd benefit more from finishing 6a and 6b.

 

Okay, it sounds like AOPS is tougher and she while she is a good math student, she definitely "forgets" some things and needs reteaching (at least she did for 5B). It sounds like she could really benefit from doing 6a/6b?

 

What are the recommended materials for 6a/6b? I know it's slightly different. We've always done the Standards versions with the HIG. But it sounds like they don't have the same thing?

[madteaparty]

I cannot do DM because I need handholding and detailed answers. We are wrapping up 5b (and like you, it is taking us longer than any Singapore book to date) and will then spend the rest of the summer with CWP5, 70 Words problems your 5th grader must know, and the rest of the Process skills book. We are doing Tabletclass prealgebra in the fall. Honestly I don't know what to expect bc we've been doing some algebra-light due to not using bar diagrams. We will supplement with Aops and Khan as needed.

[Mike in SA]

AoPS takes a very theoretical approach to mathematics (something of the anti-Saxon).  It is extremely rigorous in its approach, and one of the most "pure" of the options out there.  For students that may want to do higher-level math in college, it's great.  It really teaches you how to think, and brings home the dangers of "shortcuts."

 

Once you reach algebra, you can also take a more applied approach, and supplement with the wonderful books by Gelfand.  You can't really use Gelfand as a stand-alone, because it has no solutions.  But, after finishing an applied course in algebra, Gelfand will backfill the theory quite nicely.

 

[JBJones]

Okay, it sounds like AOPS is tougher and she while she is a good math student, she definitely "forgets" some things and needs reteaching (at least she did for 5B). It sounds like she could really benefit from doing 6a/6b?

 

What are the recommended materials for 6a/6b? I know it's slightly different. We've always done the Standards versions with the HIG. But it sounds like they don't have the same thing?

 

You're right about Singapore (SE) 6A & 6B  being different. There is a Teacher's Guide instead of a HIG. I've been browsing through it. Definitely not as helpful as the HIG, but better than nothing.   I need to look at it further.

Crimson is correct about MIF. It has tons of helpful information/teaching guidance. (I have MIF C-1)

[bethben]

Okay, it sounds like AOPS is tougher and she while she is a good math student, she definitely "forgets" some things and needs reteaching (at least she did for 5B). It sounds like she could really benefit from doing 6a/6b?

 

 

 

To me, after 5b with ds, it seemed like 6 a/b was mostly review of former concepts only with a harder twist.  My ds was forgetting some things too and really needed more review built into the program.  We changed to Saxon Algebra 1/2 and it really helped cement those concepts he kept forgetting.  I know a lot of people go straight to Algebra, but he had forgotten so many concepts he had "learned", we had to back up a bit.  Singapore is great to get a good problem solving brain, but I feel it is lacking within the program with reviewing of previously learned concepts.  We didn't go to AOPS, because while I have a child who is very good at math, he doesn't love math.

 

Beth

[tammyw]

My head is spinning. I am still so incredibly confused. I loved when it just flowed from one level to the next (up until level 5 in Singapore)! I don't do "change" so well sometimes.

 

Here are some additional things about dd.

 

- the Challenging Word Problems in Singapore were sometimes just too challenging. We absolutely had to work at these a level behind. Even I had a hard time with their wording and style some of the time.

 

- She likes stuff like Dragon Box apps, and she is good at it.

 

- She is great at higher than her level Logic books. She seems to breeze through those without any problem at all.

 

I just don't even know what my best options are for her at this point. Why am I finding this so confusing? I feel like such a dunce right now!

 

[SoCalLynn]

We used Singapore all the way through 6A-6B. By the end of that last school year my daughter absolutely hated math, 6A-B were so difficult for her. She had been doing great up to that point. I switched to Teaching Textbooks for 7th grade, and even though she would have placed into their Algebra 1 level, I decided to give her the pre-algebra instead, to build her confidence back up with a little bit of easier level work. BEST decision I've made regarding her schooling. I don't think I'm any help here, but just agreeing that the 6A-B level seemed so much more difficult.

[NittanyJen]

My head is spinning. I am still so incredibly confused. I loved when it just flowed from one level to the next (up until level 5 in Singapore)! I don't do "change" so well sometimes.

 

Here are some additional things about dd.

 

- the Challenging Word Problems in Singapore were sometimes just too challenging. We absolutely had to work at these a level behind. Even I had a hard time with their wording and style some of the time.

 

- She likes stuff like Dragon Box apps, and she is good at it.

 

- She is great at higher than her level Logic books. She seems to breeze through those without any problem at all.

 

I just don't even know what my best options are for her at this point. Why am I finding this so confusing? I feel like such a dunce right now!

 

I would give her another year in Singapore before moving on up to a preAlgebra program, and I would not put this kid in AoPS, or at least, not yet; I think it would lead to frustration.

 

You could also give Fred a try and see how it goes.

 

For what it's worth, my older DS has used Fred as a standalone program since Fractions (he is now in Advanced Algebra, the same thing as Algebra 2) and we find it quite rigorous, when properly used.  I have tutored many university students through calculus, and DH is a math professor at a research university, and we are more than happy with how well he is doing in math, and his deep understanding of what he is learning (and no, we are not teaching him-- Fred is; he works on it independently).  The key is that he has to read it with pencil and paper at hand, and actually work through the math examples embedded in the text as he encounters them (or on a second reading; sometimes the story is so fun he reads the chapter quickly first for fun :) ).  He doesn't just nod and say, "Okay, got it" even though he's good at math :).  He has helped many a kiddo who is using a traditional text such as Foerster's or Lial's, and explained a concept where the other student was stuck, and been able to do so very clearly, and spotted problems where the student was stuck in a problem-- so as to Fred only being a supplement, myth busted.

 

If it is passing muster with my math professor DH, it should pass muster with most homeschool moms for rigor.  Now fit for an individual kid is another matter; Fred may or may not work for a given student.  They have a generous return policy, so give it a whirl.  I would start with Fractions and work on up; a kid who has done Singapore through 5B will encounter both new and comfortable material in that book as well as in Decimals and Percents.

 

There are other excellent options out there as well.  AoPS works well for some kids, but not others.  Being super tough to handle does not mean it's the best game in town.  Sometimes straightforward is just what the student needs.  Tobey and Slater, a very inexpensive option (order older editions such as the cover with the backpack from Amazon) is written in clear, understandable English without being inaccurate or misleading, using correct terminology that will translate well to upper level courses (a beef I have against Teaching Textbooks).  T&S uses clear, well-explained examples that come right from the explanations, followed by samples with solutions for the student to try, followed by exercises that build gradually in difficulty (solutions in the back).  Each section has a mini-quiz, and the chapters have chapter tests and cumulative quizzes (answers in the back, and each question references the section it is testing, so if the student gets some wrong, you can quickly see if one section in particular needs review, or the student can look up the problem examples and check out how to solve the problem).  The layout is clear and easy on the eyes, with judicious use of color and white space.  This book will be easy for the student to follow or Mom and Dad to read along and help follow without need for a teacher Guide.

 

In the middle of that road you have Math in Focus, a Singapore-similar approach, and then there are traditional texts such as Lial's, Foerster's, Jacobs, and Dolciani.  

 

The one that works will depend on how comfortable you are with the subject material, and whether your student simply needs another year of review before regaining her confidence, or if she is going to continue needing some hand-holding.

 

My advice?  Give her that final year of Singapore level 6; don't push her ahead unless she really shows signs of boredom.  Don't make a decision about what lies down the road ahead until near the end of that effort and you see how she responds.  In the meantime, get your hands on Fred Fractions and decide for yourself (people in this forum will have plenty of opinions, but you decide.  Is Fred good enough for a standalone?  Absolutely-- my son and the other kids mentioned elsewhere are not being taught by space aliens :)  And his standardized test scores from year to year are advancing at a rate that seems to back up our observations of his achievement)  But the bigger part is that only you can figure out whether Fred actually fits your student.  With the money back guarantee, it's a pretty easy trial-- just make sure she really reads the book like a mathematician and doesn't zoom through claiming that it's easy-- done correctly, Fred is not easy, even for an advanced, gifted student.  Once that year is done, you can look at the other options.  My guess is that given her current reaction, AoPS is an unlikely fit-- but a lot can change in a year.  You may be able to borrow a copy and give her a shot at it at that point.  Math in Focus is expensive, but gets really good reviews.  My younger son is loving Singapore Discovering Mathematics, and the TM contains teaching notes and worked out solutions.  It is, however, a step up in difficulty from the PM series of books-- in classical terms, it definitely ramps up from grammar stage to logic stage thinking.  The Tobey and Slater books could be worked independently or with a parent, the writing is so clear; they may not be as difficult as some other books in terms of the "academic rigor" discussed so often on the boards, but the student will understand the material and gain confidence, a bonus over using any text that leaves the student and parent twisting in the wind, no matter how well regarded.

 

Good luck to you and your daughter.  I think you have a good year to decide, and usually, there are many good paths you can take, not just one.  These decisions always feel tremendously monumental, but usually there are several good choices that will work out just fine in the end.

[Arcadia]

Even I had a hard time with their wording and style some of the time.

 

- She likes stuff like Dragon Box apps, and she is good at it.

 

- She is great at higher than her level Logic books. She seems to breeze through those without any problem at all.

Your daughter might like the geometry chapters a lot more than the algebra ones.

She might be more visual and the words in math might be what is holding her back.

[tammyw]

Your daughter might like the geometry chapters a lot more than the algebra ones.

She might be more visual and the words in math might be what is holding her back.

 

She is definitely my creative child. She is very talented in art and creative writing :)

 

I recently bought Keys to Fractions (though we received it right as we were moving and I have to dig it out and haven't even looked at it yet).

 

I know there are other Keys to... books (Decimals and another I think?)

[Arcadia]

I know there are other Keys to... books (Decimals and another I think?)

Post #14

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/465758-math-workbooks-links-compilation/

[Elisabet1]

It was at Singapore 5B that things started going downhill for my older children. We stuck it out through 6A and 6B, but did not even finish 6B and I think we skimped a bit around.

 

For us, we picked up with Keys to Algebra books 1-4. Then we started Jacob's Algebra. I know it went well because I decided to send back to public school after that. My daughter was the first person to score 100% on the Texas Tech Algebra 1 test out. They said that never happened before so they had 3 different people correct it.

 

My intent with my now 10 yr old is similar. If he is feeling the same way, I might just skip all of level 6 and do a year of general math or "prealgebra." I am not positive which program I would use. I do like BJU. But I have heard such great things about other general math and pre-algebra programs too. We definitely will not use anything AOP or Saxon (AOP is Alpha Omega and AoP is Art of Problem Solving).

[tammyw]

Everyone is being so helpful in offering their advice and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. But there are definitely extreme views of doing 6a/6b and not doing them. It seems pretty split on those that liked it and those that didn't. The negative experiences really make me hesitant to do 6a/6b. I'm not really interested in BJU (I once read something that made me feel uncomfortable with their philosophy).

 

Math is the only area I feel uncertain about right now, and yet I feel it's the most important thing. And up until now it's always been SO EASY! That's why I'm so frustrated. And I'm already frustrated and stressed out because we recently moved and have been living in utter chaos at home :( I'm so scared that math has been going so well up until this point (going smoothly with Singapore) that if I make the wrong choice, I'll totally screw things up. I almost wish someone else were teaching her math for grade 6 :(

[Guest]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep through to the end with Singapore. Obviously, it is the right choice for your child. They even have upper level books now. Trust yourself.

[NittanyJen]

I think you said the key things here.

 

1. You recently moved. It may not seem like it, but the chaos of moving may have affected your daughter (even just knowing a move was coming, even to a new house up the street, would have stressed my kids).

 

2. No, you won't make some terrible choice and mess her up for life. If you run with Singapore 6A/6B and it's too easy, accelerate through it. Supplement with a computer programming course such as Super Scratch Programming Adventure or a logic course. As I explained above, there are many really good choices available. There are a few doozies, but most of those recommended in this thread are pretty good.

 

3. It is not uncommon for even math-adept kids to occasionally plateau before taking off again, that's okay (if unnerving). Just stay patient and stay the course, reviewing as needed. Some kids tank at this plateau, others when they get bored. She may even have insight herself.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

Everyone is being so helpful in offering their advice and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. But there are definitely extreme views of doing 6a/6b and not doing them. It seems pretty split on those that liked it and those that didn't. The negative experiences really make me hesitant to do 6a/6b. I'm not really interested in BJU (I once read something that made me feel uncomfortable with their philosophy).

 

Math is the only area I feel uncertain about right now, and yet I feel it's the most important thing. And up until now it's always been SO EASY! That's why I'm so frustrated. And I'm already frustrated and stressed out because we recently moved and have been living in utter chaos at home :( I'm so scared that math has been going so well up until this point (going smoothly with Singapore) that if I make the wrong choice, I'll totally screw things up. I almost wish someone else were teaching her math for grade 6 :(

[Little Blue House]

I'm in the same boat as the OP. DS is finishing up Singapore 5B Standards Ed. this summer. I've considered sticking with Singapore and moving on to 6A/6B for his 6th grade year, but have been concerned about the teacher's guides. Could we switch to US edition seamlessly? I've only used standards ed. and find the HIGs very helpful and easy to use. I've also considered switching over to Math Mammoth b/c I already own it. Any thoughts? 

[tammyw]

I'm in the same boat as the OP. DS is finishing up Singapore 5B Standards Ed. this summer. I've considered sticking with Singapore and moving on to 6A/6B for his 6th grade year, but have been concerned about the teacher's guides. Could we switch to US edition seamlessly? I've only used standards ed. and find the HIGs very helpful and easy to use. I've also considered switching over to Math Mammoth b/c I already own it. Any thoughts? 

 

I'm wondering the same thing. We've always used the Standards edition. If we stick it out with Singapore 6a/6b, I'm wondering if we should do the US version, or stick with the Standards edition?

 

[Momling]

We went through Singapore to the end and I'm glad we did. We moved to Galore Park SYRWL Maths 2&3 after that and it's also gone really well. I have no doubt about her readiness for high school math.

 

I don't really understand why some folks jump ship at SM 5b to move to pre-algebra. There is a lot of interesting stuff and a level of depth that can be worked through in middle school math. If SM is working for your child, I'd just continue on!

[tammyw]

We went through Singapore to the end and I'm glad we did. We moved to Galore Park SYRWL Maths 2&3 after that and it's also gone really well. I have no doubt about her readiness for high school math.

 

I don't really understand why some folks jump ship at SM 5b to move to pre-algebra. There is a lot of interesting stuff and a level of depth that can be worked through in middle school math. If SM is working for your child, I'd just continue on!

 

Okay, I'm going to try the Singapore 6a/6b.

 

Did you continue on with the Standards and use their teacher's guide? Or did you switch to the US version which looks to have a HIG?

 

Thank you!

[Momling]

I never used the HIG to begin with. We just looked at the explanation of one lesson in the textbook, then I worked through sample problems with child watching, then had them try the rest of the textbook problems while I watched, then I handed over the coordinating workbook pages for the child to do individually. Then I checked them and had the child fix any errors. It's worked great.

[madteaparty]

I never used the HIG to begin with. We just looked at the explanation of one lesson in the textbook, then I worked through sample problems with child watching, then had them try the rest of the textbook problems while I watched, then I handed over the coordinating workbook pages for the child to do individually. Then I checked them and had the child fix any errors. It's worked great.

We need the HIG. That's the reason not to go on with Singapore in our case.

[tammyw]

We need the HIG. That's the reason not to go on with Singapore in our case.

 

I also use the HIG. It really kept me on track for what we were doing more than anything.

 

I think I could handle figuring it all out as long as there's an answer key somewhere (a separate purchase?)

[JBJones]

I also use the HIG. It really kept me on track for what we were doing more than anything.

 

I think I could handle figuring it all out as long as there's an answer key somewhere (a separate purchase?)

 

The only component that doesn't have answers in the back of the book (workbook, TESTS, Extra Practice, CWP, IP on the U.S side) is the workbook. They are in the Teacher Guide.

[Love2teach0307]

I just went yesterday to a local homeschool curriculum bookstore to compare 6A standards edition to the US edition. In my mind, there is no way I would use the US edition since it doesn't not cover close to the material in the standards edition. The material does not cover as many topics and the ones they do cover barely scratch the surface with no review work. We switched to standards at 3A and use the HIG frequently. The lack of a HIG for 6A&B really makes me nervous. You can buy an answer key booklet for the TB and WB that covers 4A to 6B standards for $9. But there are no explanations, reinforcement ideas, or teaching strategies. I'm contemplating buying the $50 Teacher Guide just to hold my hand. I would love to hear more from others who want to use 6A&B standards next year.

[tammyw]

I decided to order the 6a / 6b Standards edition, plus the teacher guide. We shall see! I'll report back in the fall. Thanks for all the advice!

[nansk]

You can buy an answer key booklet for the TB and WB that covers 4A to 6B standards for $9. But there are no explanations, reinforcement ideas, or teaching strategies. I'm contemplating buying the $50 Teacher Guide just to hold my hand. I would love to hear more from others who want to use 6A&B standards next year.

The New Syllabus Primary Mathematics Teaching Guide for Primary 6 is available for free download from here. It has ideas and teaching strategies to introduce new concepts, practice games, etc.

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

I have 2 students in this same place; we just finished 5B, and are working through Challenging Word Problems 5 over the summer.

 

We've decided to go with 6A / 6B until / unless there's a problem; my students enjoy Khan (for introducing new ideas), Penrose (for contemplating the "what ifs"), and just drills (okay, they don't ENJOY those, but they do appreciate them in the long run) as supplemental material. I also have a couple of (free to us) pre-algebra books in the basement to whip out should 6A/6B be more challenging / more slow than we'd like.

[tammyw]

I have 2 students in this same place; we just finished 5B, and are working through Challenging Word Problems 5 over the summer.

 

We've decided to go with 6A / 6B until / unless there's a problem; my students enjoy Khan (for introducing new ideas), Penrose (for contemplating the "what ifs"), and just drills (okay, they don't ENJOY those, but they do appreciate them in the long run) as supplemental material. I also have a couple of (free to us) pre-algebra books in the basement to whip out should 6A/6B be more challenging / more slow than we'd like.

 

What is Penrose?

[Guest homeschoolinmom]

I tried Singapore for one year and knew it was not for me.  Honestly, for my son who hates sitting down and doing workbook pages, we are going back to Teaching Textbooks.  It is good for a visually-minded kid.  I will say that we always buy a year ahead because they tend to run behind.

 

 

[nansk]

What is Penrose?

 

Penrose The Mathematical Cat by Theoni Pappas.

 

[tammyw]

Penrose The Mathematical Cat by Theoni Pappas.

 

 

Oh thanks, I figured that was it, but wanted to make sure!

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

^ Yes, the cat. We love Penrose.

 

 

 

Question: If 6A / 6B goes well with us this year, then do we count it as pre-algebra and go right to algebra 1, or find a pre-alg book to do in 7th grade?

 

I guess I need to have a rough-draft sequence of math for the next few years, huh?

[NittanyJen]

Just for the benefit of others reading this thread, from the POV of a PhD research mathematician (my DH) who teaches undergraduate and graduate math courses, and a university paid math tutor who has had to tutor many incoming kids (myself) who has read through many, many math textbooks in some detail (including all the big ones including AoPS) we absolutely LOVE the depth and rigor of Life of Fred as it stands up to the other offerings.  It requires a certain maturity of learning style to get all out of it that it offers, but it truly offers an amazing depth of knowledge, and requires students to move out of the sense of copy the algorithm/repeat what the learned mode of thought of so many books; they must truly understand why they are doing what they are doing and how it works, and Fred encourages students to think about what they are doing in a deeper way so that they can apply what they are learning to novel situations they may not have encountered before.

 

I would not call it superior to AoPS or Dolciani or several of the other excellent choices out there; however I would also not call any of those superior to Fred; Fred is very different.  I think it actually is superior to some offerings, if and when it is used properly and by a student for whom it is suited.  The same can be said of AoPS-- it is an excellent program for a student for whom it is suited, and a disastrous program for a student whom it is ill-matched.  Extremely bright students can thrive with either.  Merely decent students can thrive with either; it is more of an issue of temperament, not mathematical ability.  There are variances within each series as  well.

 

I don't mean to start a thread hijack into the merits of Fred-- if the OP wants to use it as a supplement, that's fine.  It might get a little rough, as it is a very complete program by itself, when used thoroughly, and doing two complete programs simultaneously can become time-consuming (I have doubts whether my younger DS can continue both Singapore DM and Fred, but that will be up to him).  But the blanket statements that Fred is just a supplement I will continue to respond to so that any new homeschoolers just joining us might see that those are a matter of opinion, not fact (and homeschoolers are entitled to their opinions, of course); but it is more a matter of fit of the program to the kid.  Our academically gifted elder son is thriving using Fred as a sole program, and with a math professor for a Dad, we have pretty high standards for what constitutes 'rigor' in a math course.  I'd just hate to have newer folks dissuaded from something because of an aside they read in a thread that might not paint the whole picture.

 

 

[Momling]

Some people do skip pre-algebra, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you had some need to get to Algebra 1 quickly (like you have a 9th grader who needs it for high school transcript purposes). Otherwise, I'd take the opportunity to solidify the trickier parts of elementary math, focus on problem solving, get a head start on algebra and geometry, and gain some maturity. I think it would be a rough jump between SM 6b and Algebra 1. At our house at least, there would have been tears and an increase in math-hating. But after two years of pre-algebra (which after SM6b, have included Galore Park SYRWL Maths 2 & 3 and Keys to Algebra and Real World Algebra and Algebra survival guide), Algebra 1 will be a breeze.