Some Saxon love, FWIW

[scott777]

yeah stupidusername.  That was my feeling.  I though my son would be SO bored doing 1/2 after doing well in 8/7 but I still didn't want him to hit Algebra 1 yet at 12.  I know other kids do it that age and younger but I just didn't feel that way for some reason.  When I saw the Course 3 book, i thought, "Perfect!".  It definitely seems like a better bridge as you say.

 

I also trust S.H. very much.

[Reefgazer]

My daughter is 11 now (in 6th grade) and will be 12 and in 7th grade next fall, doing 8/7.  I think she would pull her hair out if we had to do Course 3 (which I am assuming is more pre-algebra, right?).  Now, I am assuming she will be fine in 8/7, but if she is not, I will certainly consider delaying Algebra I for either 8/7 or Algebra 1/2.

 

I see your point on not wanting to do algebra in 7th grade.  In that case, I might have gone for Course 3 also.  I didn't realize your son was that young.

Hi reefgazer,  

 

Art Reed suggest after 8/7, if your daughter does well on the last 5 tests ( I believe), that she go right into Algebra 1.  I think that is the normal progression.  Only if she struggled does he suggest 1/2.  How old is your daughter?

 

My son is finishing up 8/7 and we are doing Course 3 because I don't want to rush him into Algebra in the 7th grade.  See my post above yours about what the Saxon author Stephen Hake suggests.  He sort of believes in Course 3 between 8/7 and Alg1.

 

- Scott

 

[scott777]

reef gazer, yeah, I think you are right on schedule.  I think  you should follow Reed's advice and see how she makes out with 8/7.  It is a very good pre-alg book and she should do fine in Alg1.  If she is getting good test scores then go right to Algebra 1.  In Alg 1 it looks like John Saxon did a lot of good review of the pre-algebra concepts anyway.

 

Yes, the Course 3 is much of the same as 8/7 but deeper and with a broader scope.  It has more statistics, probability, and word problems than 8/7.  

 

I would not do Course 3 if my son was doing 8/7 in 7th like your daughter.  I would have put him right through to Alg 1 like Mr. Reed advises.

[PachiSusan]

I have heard many great things about Saxon. HOWEVER- are all of these great things on older edition SM books? Or can I just go to the SM site now and order the same book that y'all rave about? What is the recommendation?

 

I use the 2nd edition books. If you buy the new versions from the site, they are Common Core aligned and not the books that John Saxon wrote. 

[scott777]

Susan,  

 

   I hope not to ignite a Saxon editions war, but I believe that 3rd editions of most of the books were published way before common core.  I understand that book publishers label their books "aligned to common core" so that they are accepted by schools.

 

I may be incorrect but from what I read from Art Reed and spoke about with Stephen Hake, the 3rd editions of most of the books and 4th edition of 7/6 are still excellent books.  Mr. Reed in his book, "Using John Saxon's Math Books" and on his website even said the 3rd editions are almost identical to the 2nd editions, and that they were created primarily to be soft covers for homeschoolers.  Is that incorrect?

 

Actually Mr. Reed addresses Saxon Math and Common Core in his newsletter just this very month.  He also puts the editions that he recommends.

 

http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2014.php#0514

 

I do understand that some people prefer the earlier editions because they were the simplest books and that subsequent editions may have become broader because of state standards.  Stephen Hake even acknowledges this in the post I entered above.  However John Saxon and he were careful to "strengthen" the books with each new edition.

 

So from my information as I understand it,  the 2nd editions and 3rd editions are almost identical.  So the latest 5/4, 6/5, 7/6 (4th), 8/7, Alg 1(3rd), Alg 2(3rd), Advanced math, and Calculus should be just fine.

 

 

[Ellie]

OK, Saxon peeps, question for you all:  My daughter is fairly strong in math and just finishing up 7/6 (almost entirely 90-100s); we do every problem, as directed, from warm-ups to mental math to all the problems.  My plan is to have her complete 8/7 next year and then move into Algebra I in 8th grade.  Art Reed recommends Algebra 1/2 following 8/7, I think, but my God, I think she would be bored to death!  Can I just pop into Algebra I after 8/7, without doing Course 3 or Algebra 1/2? 

 

The publisher recommends going to Algebra 1 after completing Math 87.

 

Art Reed has some good ideas, but he is not the publisher. :-)

[Jerico]

We are saxon users, getting ready to start 2. We will be sticking with it... So, should i buy every level i can find next time I visit the used bookstore by my inlaws. I got 2 for $8 so it was a good deal.

[brookspr]

Any suggestions on how I can convince my hubby to continue with Saxon for our two kids?  He is solely in charge of math because he is so much better at explaining it in a way they understand than I am.  I also wanted him to be fully vested in homeschooling and responsible for part of their education. This was our first year homeschooling DD 13 (8th grade) and DS 11 (6th grade).  DD used Algebra 1 and DS did Saxon 7/6.  Both have done well with the material but neither one of them likes the program. I honestly believe that any math program would be met with the same dislike, neither of my kids has ever enjoyed doing math even though they are both good at it.  Saxon is really boring to them because there is so much review in each lesson, they feel it is a waste of their time.  I get that, but they fly through the lessons so fast I kind of feel like telling them to just suck it up and deal with it.  Hubby wants to change it up for next year with a non-spiraling curriculum.  I don't think he has done any research on what's out there, so I can't say what he would rather use, but I think the Saxon approach will be good for both of them long term when it comes to remembering and executing the material.

 

Having said that, I don't think DD will be going into any type of STEM program, she is heavily interested in music and possibly literature/writing of some kind.  DS may need that math for some kind of science field, but it's really too early to tell. I don't want to make it sound like I don't care about math, I was a scientist in my previous working life, but even I did not use much higher math in my job.  I think they need to do math and get into a good college program but not necessarily need to know how to solve an integral when they are 30 :)

 

I guess I'm looking for some info on long term success of Saxon or recommendations for other programs that don't have so much review in each lesson.

[PachiSusan]

No war - I'm not the warring type.  :thumbup1:

 

I belong to a group who's founding member contacted the company personally regarding Common Core and they said that all the new books that they sell will be/ have been changed to align to common core except the home school editions. They were given the definitions and they said they changed things to be in compliance, not that they simply slapped the Common Core moniker on them.

 

I choose to stay with the 2nd edition because I like them the best, and will move to the 3rd edition for 8/7 because that is what our provider uses at that point. There was a "break" so to speak, when Sake took over the editions. He believed in changing it to better meet the educational standards of elementary school teachers while Saxon came at it from a College perspective having seen what kids were not being taught well in elementary school. I more closely align with Saxon's POV, so I stick with the books he had more control over. 

 

It's all personal comfort and perspective anyway. I simply mentioned the common core because there are people, both pro AND Con, that choose with that firmly in mind. :)

 

Mr. Reed is neither Saxon NOR Hake...so I take what they say about their product more than Mr. Reed. Nothing negative to him - I think he has awesome videos and help, :)

 

 

 

Susan,  

 

   I hope not to ignite a Saxon editions war, but I believe that 3rd editions of most of the books were published way before common core.  I understand that book publishers label their books "aligned to common core" so that they are accepted by schools.

 

I may be incorrect but from what I read from Art Reed and spoke about with Stephen Hake, the 3rd editions of most of the books and 4th edition of 7/6 are still excellent books.  Mr. Reed in his book, "Using John Saxon's Math Books" and on his website even said the 3rd editions are almost identical to the 2nd editions, and that they were created primarily to be soft covers for homeschoolers.  Is that incorrect?

 

Actually Mr. Reed addresses Saxon Math and Common Core in his newsletter just this very month.  He also puts the editions that he recommends.

 

http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2014.php#0514

 

I do understand that some people prefer the earlier editions because they were the simplest books and that subsequent editions may have become broader because of state standards.  Stephen Hake even acknowledges this in the post I entered above.  However John Saxon and he were careful to "strengthen" the books with each new edition.

 

So from my information as I understand it,  the 2nd editions and 3rd editions are almost identical.  So the latest 5/4, 6/5, 7/6 (4th), 8/7, Alg 1(3rd), Alg 2(3rd), Advanced math, and Calculus should be just fine.

 

[Omma]

My 12 dd just finished Saxon 8/7 with a 94 average on all her tests.  Because she is so young (going into 7th grade in the fall) and also because this is what her older brother is also doing, we have started Saxon Algebra 1/2 and will be doing that until November and then switching to Saxon Algebra I.  We skipped the first 20 or so lessons, though, as a result of me doing placement tests with them.  They were doing okay (80 or above), but I decided to skip to the last test and they both got 70% so I thought we'd go through the books this summer and fall (since I own them anyway). 

 

My son, who is going into 9th grade in the fall, really needs to solidify his understanding of math, and my dd just plain enjoys math and will do whatever I give her to do.  My hope is that they will still both be able to finish Algebra I by the end of next summer.  At that point, I am thinking of a 'great divide'.  My dd really, really loves geometry, so I am thinking of following what I understand to be MFW's recommendations, which are as follows:

 

Saxon Algebra I  (7th grade)

Jacob's Geometry  (8th grade)

Saxon Algebra II  (9th grade)

Saxon Advanced Mathematics (10 & 11 grade)

Saxon Calculus  (12th grade)

 

I guess My Father's World recommends Jacob's Geometry to be thrown in the middle of all these Saxon years because of the traditional way that geometric proofs are handled in Jacob's.  Even though there appears to be a big geometry overlap in this sequence, it is the subject my dd especially loves, so I thought we'd try it this way.  Anyone else planning anything like this?  I know Saxon teaches geometry within the other 3rd edition books, but this is the sequence MFW recommends, so I thought I'd share it hear in case anyone else is intrigued with the idea like I am!  :)

 

Brenda

[scott777]

Hi Susan, 

Yes no battles here either!  I think that your information is correct that new editions are and will be shaped to CC.  I am sure the current Course 1, 2, 3 and the homeschool editions are not part of that now.  Anyway, like you said, whatever personally feels more comfortable for the family.

[Alohamom]

We love Saxon, too. My first homeschool purchase ever was to purchase Saxon math to after school our kids. We are homeschoolers now (first year), and I have been so pleased with both dds improvement in math. We are doing 6/5 (dd11) and algebra 1 (3rd edition) for high schooler.

[Reefgazer]

I cross-posted this over on the high school board, because Algebra I is sometimes high school and sometimes middle school, but if I go with Saxon Algebra I, 3rd edition (the integrated math sequence), what do I need to buy for a "complete set"?  The text, I know.  But are there separate answer keys, tests, homework keys, and a problem workbook also?  I thought I remember reading somewhere that that was the case, but can't find the posts and don't see that info on the publisher's website.

[stupidusername]

 

Saxon Algebra I  (7th grade)

Jacob's Geometry  (8th grade)

Saxon Algebra II  (9th grade)

Saxon Advanced Mathematics (10 & 11 grade)

Saxon Calculus  (12th grade)

 

I am intrigued by the idea. I have heard great things about Jacobs' Geometry. 

 

Am unsure, however, whether it makes sense to tackle Jacobs before Algebra II or after.

[Courtney_Ostaff]

I used Saxon in public high school, and loved it, back in the early 90s. So I bought the K version for my daughter this year and was soooo disappointed it. It was so... fluffy! We quit using it in November, and switched to Singapore Essentials. Much more challenging for her.  Someone told me that the K-3 was written later, by someone else, and isn't in line with "real" Saxon math. Is this true? Should I hold off until 4th grade? Does anyone else feel the early stuff was fluffy? Am I nuts?  :confused1:

[Erin]

I cross-posted this over on the high school board, because Algebra I is sometimes high school and sometimes middle school, but if I go with Saxon Algebra I, 3rd edition (the integrated math sequence), what do I need to buy for a "complete set"?  The text, I know.  But are there separate answer keys, tests, homework keys, and a problem workbook also?  I thought I remember reading somewhere that that was the case, but can't find the posts and don't see that info on the publisher's website.

 

If you get the "homeschool kit" it'll come with text, test masters, and answer key.  It does NOT come with a solutions manual which I believe is a step-by-step of each problem.  

 

Personally, there were only a handful of times I wished I had a solution manual during Algebra I.  Otherwise I could usually puzzle my way through the student text. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Courtney - Many, many schools ignore Saxon K.  It is the only elementary version without workbooks.  We started with Saxon 1, and it is far less fluffy.  I picked up Saxon K used and am using it with my preschooler just to introduce him to math concepts before we start Saxon 1 in Kindergarten.  My biggest beef is that the lessons are scripted to occur 12 lessons in each month, and I have to flip back in forth in the meeting book when we get "off track."  Saxon K-3 are written by a different author and are a different format.  They are scripted, have daily fact sheets, a daily meeting that covers temperature, clock, calendar, skip counting, etc.  I think they are good, but the older grades are probably better and get higher reviews.  

 

On the versions debate, I would be a fan of older editions.  The third edition was printed in 2004, before Common Core.  The fourth editions are the new ones they are coming out with, and it looks like they still sell the third editions for the homeschool kits.  The simple solution is to look at the print date and make sure it is before Common Core if that is what you want.

[Roadrunner]

Nothing to contribute, but I miss Bill. Thinking he won't let the Saxon thread go. O.K. Disappearing now. :) ignore me. :)

[Hunter]

When a student is properly placed in Saxon, there is little need for solution manuals. When a student is working at frustration level, then a solution manual is a godsend.

 

It is VERY very very easy to place students too high in Saxon. We are not used the idea of looking through a text and having a student complete 20-60 LONG lessons before learning ANYTHING new. Americans are rush, rush, rush and push, push, push. To see such "waste" is a crime to some instructors.

 

At least for early editions, this plan has worked for many families. Place the student low; NEVER place a student above their reading level. Have them buddy read every lesson with you. It's best if YOU complete the series alongside your oldest child, PROBLEM BY PROBLEM, every last one of them. Obviously, also have the students complete every problem.

 

Saxon can be like the Hare and Tortoise scenario. Just keep moving. Be consistent. You will get to the finish line.

[Walking-Iris]

Courtney - Many, many schools ignore Saxon K.  It is the only elementary version without workbooks.  We started with Saxon 1, and it is far less fluffy.  I picked up Saxon K used and am using it with my preschooler just to introduce him to math concepts before we start Saxon 1 in Kindergarten.  My biggest beef is that the lessons are scripted to occur 12 lessons in each month, and I have to flip back in forth in the meeting book when we get "off track."  Saxon K-3 are written by a different author and are a different format.  They are scripted, have daily fact sheets, a daily meeting that covers temperature, clock, calendar, skip counting, etc.  I think they are good, but the older grades are probably better and get higher reviews.  

 

 

 

I have Saxon k that I plan to use with my 4 year old because of the lack of handwriting. She's ready to do math, I think it looks fine for her. 

 

Nothing to contribute, but I miss Bill. Thinking he won't let the Saxon thread go. O.K. Disappearing now. :) ignore me. :)

 

I don't.  :coolgleamA:

 

When a student is properly placed in Saxon, there is little need for solution manuals. When a student is working at frustration level, then a solution manual is a godsend.

 

It is VERY very very easy to place students too high in Saxon. We are not used the idea of looking through a text and having a student complete 20-60 LONG lessons before learning ANYTHING new. Americans are rush, rush, rush and push, push, push. To see such "waste" is a crime to some instructors.

 

At least for early editions, this plan has worked for many families. Place the student low; NEVER place a student above their reading level. Have them buddy read every lesson with you. It's best if YOU complete the series alongside your oldest child, PROBLEM BY PROBLEM, every last one of them. Obviously, also have the students complete every problem.

 

Saxon can be like the Hare and Tortoise scenario. Just keep moving. Be consistent. You will get to the finish line.

 

I need the solutions manual!! It would seriously slow up my day if I had to actually work outall my ds's problems he does independently to check them. Just a quick glance down the answers...easy peesy. When he's done one wrong then I can stop and look closer to see what he did or didn't do. Solutions manuals are for the teacher/parents.

 

And I completely agree with your statement about rush rush. Back to the Saxon K for example, it's likely no big deal in the scheme of things for a kid to do any of the early grade levels, but she's my last child and I always ignored Saxon K-3 because of bad reviews, but here's my chance to see for myself. I'll have the Miquon and  likely the SM and/or MM in the wings in case every thing I heard about Saxon K-3 turns out to be true. But I'm starting to feel a need to go at a slower pace.

 

My ds can read his math text, but he doesn't like to. It's not terribly inspiring. So usually I've skimmed it myself and then I'll read parts to him, put the lesson in my own words etc, show him important examples in the text then we do the mental/problem solving and the lesson practice together. He does the mixed on his own, and can ask me if he needs help. I check and then we fix whatever needs fixing right then. 

 

I think my ds is the type who will be good at math but never really like math. I've exhausted myself (and my wallet a bit tbh) trying to find some way to get math enjoyable for him. He's not going into any STEM field I feel. I can totally see him going to an art school.  :laugh: So now I'm thinking a "suck it up buttercup" may be my only hope.

 

The MFW math sequence intrigues me. I definitely want my children having a geometry course in high school, not integrated. 

[Erin]

Double post

[Erin]

 

 

I need the solutions manual!! It would seriously slow up my day if I had to actually work outall my ds's problems he does independently to check them. Just a quick glance down the answers...easy peesy. When he's done one wrong then I can stop and look closer to see what he did or didn't do. Solutions manuals are for the teacher/parents.

No, no.  You're misunderstanding.  The kit comes with the answer key.  Ie, 1. a, 2. 14, 3. 27x+y, etc.  

 

The Solution Manual is a book of step by steps of each problem.  If he has a question on a problem and you can't figure it out either, that's when the solution manual is useful.  

[Walking-Iris]

No, no.  You're misunderstanding.  The kit comes with the answer key.  Ie, 1. a, 2. 14, 3. 27x+y, etc.  

 

The Solution Manual is a book of step by steps of each problem.  If he has a question on a problem and you can't figure it out either, that's when the solution manual is useful.  

 

Okay I don't have an answer key alone. My Saxon books are textbook, solutions manual, and the tests and worksheets reproducible books. 

 

I haven't seen an answer key that is separate to the solutions manual for my 5/4 or 6/5. I didn't realize there were two different "types" of answer solutions books.

[Erin]

IIRC, up til 8/7, the answer key WAS the solutions manual.

I'd have to go look to be sure, but I'm remembering it as having the answers and the procedures in the same place...

[Irishmommy]

My son HATED the elementary Saxon levels. He absolutely loathed the spiral approach. We switched to Singapore and he was MUCH happier, therefore, so was I! BUT, we have been working through Saxon Algebra 1, through virtualhomeschoolgroup.com, and he is doing very well. He has an 86 average and is in 7th grade. We are calling it pre-algebra this year, and will finish it next year as Algebra 1. So, even if you HATED the younger levels of Saxon, there is still a chance you might like the older levels!

[Reefgazer]

Do you know if this Algebra I homeschool kit is still sold by HMH, or is it only available on the used book market?  I couldn't find the kit on their website, but they changed their website not long ago and I am lost.  I'm with Hunter - I think they'll discontinue it in not too many years.

reef gazer, yeah, I think you are right on schedule.  I think  you should follow Reed's advice and see how she makes out with 8/7.  It is a very good pre-alg book and she should do fine in Alg1.  If she is getting good test scores then go right to Algebra 1.  In Alg 1 it looks like John Saxon did a lot of good review of the pre-algebra concepts anyway.

 

Yes, the Course 3 is much of the same as 8/7 but deeper and with a broader scope.  It has more statistics, probability, and word problems than 8/7.  

 

I would not do Course 3 if my son was doing 8/7 in 7th like your daughter.  I would have put him right through to Alg 1 like Mr. Reed advises.

 

[scott777]

reefgazer, it sure is not easy to find anymore on their site.  I found it though:  

 

http://www.hmhco.com/shop/k12/Saxon-Algebra-1/9781600329715

 

I usually buy it new from Amazon or Christianbooks for much cheaper though

 

http://www.christianbook.com/saxon-algebra-home-study-third-edition/9781565771239/pd/791230?item_code=WW&netp_id=415496&event=ESRCG&view=details

[Reefgazer]

And I'll be darned, there it is, in plain sight!  Thanks!

reefgazer, it sure is not easy to find anymore on their site.  I found it though:  

 

http://www.hmhco.com/shop/k12/Saxon-Algebra-1/9781600329715

 

I usually buy it new from Amazon or Christianbooks for much cheaper though

 

http://www.christianbook.com/saxon-algebra-home-study-third-edition/9781565771239/pd/791230?item_code=WW&netp_id=415496&event=ESRCG&view=details

 

[Erin]

I know Rainbow also carries it...