Question about dual enrollment....

[Heather in VA]

When you take dual enrollment courses is there any point in following it up with a CLEP or AP exam? It doesn't make sense to me that it would be needed since it's actually a college course. Yesterday I was talking to a mom of a public school student whose daughter is doing a few dual enrollment classes via the public school and a local university (not community college) but the school system says she has to take the AP exam as well. That sounds stupid to me. What worries me is that if our county is requiring this as dual enrollment increases then our state universities will start expecting it as well. 

 

Am I missing something here?

[EKS]

I don't know why she is being required to take the AP exam.  A reason to take the exam would be that a college might not transfer credit for dual enrollement courses but will give credit for AP exams.

[regentrude]

When you take dual enrollment courses is there any point in following it up with a CLEP or AP exam? It doesn't make sense to me that it would be needed since it's actually a college course. Yesterday I was talking to a mom of a public school student whose daughter is doing a few dual enrollment classes via the public school and a local university (not community college) but the school system says she has to take the AP exam as well. That sounds stupid to me. What worries me is that if our county is requiring this as dual enrollment increases then our state universities will start expecting it as well. 

 

Am I missing something here?

 

That makes no sense. The college class gives her a college grade based on a college level evaluation process. There would be no need for extra exams - unless these are "college level" courses administered at the school, but do not come with an examination *at* the college.

Otherwise, I do not see how the school system can not *require* a student to take an AP exam - what can they do if the student refuses?

 

ETA: The only reason to take an AP exam would be if the credit from this institution is not accepted by the final college, but an AP score would be. But that is not something the school could know, since it would depend on each student's the final college.

[shawthorne44]

Cynical Me thinks the school thinks that the dual enrolled kids have a good chance at passing the test, and therefore improving the school's numbers.  

[Jamee]

That was what I was thinking too shawthorne44

[Heather in VA]

Cynical Me thinks the school thinks that the dual enrolled kids have a good chance at passing the test, and therefore improving the school's numbers.  

 

This occurred to me too. Definitely something I wouldn't put past the school system.

[Heather in VA]

Otherwise, I do not see how the school system can not *require* a student to take an AP exam - what can they do if the student refuses?

 

ETA: The only reason to take an AP exam would be if the credit from this institution is not accepted by the final college, but an AP score would be. But that is not something the school could know, since it would depend on each student's the final college.

 

The school has told the students that they don't get credit for the course (on the high school side) if they don't take the AP exam. So technically they could remove it from the transcript or block graduation (or the higher diploma you get from the more advanced classes). But it's just nuts that they would required this test when it's not necessary. 

 

This just sounds like a huge scam to me. 

[regentrude]

The school has told the students that they don't get credit for the course (on the high school side) if they don't take the AP exam. So technically they could remove it from the transcript or block graduation (or the higher diploma you get from the more advanced classes). But it's just nuts that they would required this test when it's not necessary. 

 

This just sounds like a huge scam to me. 

 

I would complain big time. If they want the student to take the AP exam, the school should offer an *AP* course that is tailored to the exam.

Even a good college class does not have to be lined up with the very specific material that must be covered for the exam in a very specific way.

 

[G5052]

The local school system does that as well.  I can't figure out a good reason why because the state colleges accept the credits in most cases (depends on the subject).  The only reason I can come up with is that it pumps up their achievement stats.

[retiredHSmom]

I was told at our community college that students from local high schools who take dual-enrollment classes do not get both high school and college credit for the class. I found that odd as the name dual-enrollment seems to imply two credits.

[bettyandbob]

That approach doesn't make sense, especially if the student you are referring to is in VA. I assume that to be the case due to your name. My dd has numerous opportunities for DE at  her public high school. First, in VA, community colleges a specific set of courses designed to transfer to any state university so taking courses through the community college or the university should not make a difference. The options my dd has are as follows:

1 cc class taught right on her high school campus. This is an English Composition class, a basic gen ed requirement. No AP required. 

2 a univerisity class taught on her high school campus. This is a GIS class. There is no AP exam for this. Most (not all) universities in Virginia are offering a degree or certificate in this subject. 

3. online classes from cc. If one sticks to basic gen ed courses, credits will directly transfer to any university in the state. No AP.

4. online classes from a university. This is not an option I've heard people taking. It's a lot more expensive than cc. (we don't get free courses for DE before high school graduation like other states. Options 1 and 2 do not have regular credit hour fees, but do have small fees associated with them.)

5. classes taken on campus at cc or on campus at the local univ. With this option you have to juggle the schedule of getting to the campus at the college and your regular high school committments. Some people do this a the cc. I haven't met anyone doing it at the local univ. Perhaps that's a traffic issue, but I'm sure cost is a factor. The other issue I see with taking courses at the univ versus cc is I think there is a clearly defined set of gen eds at the cc which are set up to directly transfer to any state univ, but when taking courses at one state univ it is not clear the credits will transfer to another. This was true when I attended univ in VA 30 years ago. I wanted to take classes in summer school at home to transfer back to my school. It was easier to find courses at the cc which were accepted to transfer than the local state university. I attended the most selective state univ at the time and they seemed to prefer transfer credits from cc even then. The cc system in VA has been coordinated with the universities for a very long time. I think the cc near me was particularly well connected many years ago, but now there is coordination throughout the state cc system. That said, students in the public school do get credit for DE classes taken at the local univ. The requirements for DE are clearly explained on the school system website. 

 

The only thing that would explain the requirement for AP exam would be if the local university where the student is taking the course is unaccredited. There are some private universities in VA which are not accredited. Could she be taking courses at one of them? The public school has to follow their own accrediting guidelines, so they can't just count course work from an unaccredited school toward the high school diploma without some back up verification. 

 

So if this situation is in VA, in general, the requirement of AP exam for DE course makes no sense. 

 

 

[bettyandbob]

Cynical Me thinks the school thinks that the dual enrolled kids have a good chance at passing the test, and therefore improving the school's numbers.  

 

Yes, this could be related to something like Jay Matthew's Challenge Index, which considers the number of AP exams taken versus the number passed (scored at least 3) for individual schools.

 

Or, it could be money. That's a lot of exam fees being paid to the College Board for those AP tests. 

 

Or, it could be that the school has no/few teachers who can meet the College Board requirement to call an offered course AP. So, this is a way to get on record saying X number students took AP exams, without identifying that such students didn't take a corresponding course at the high school. 

[shawthorne44]

Do public school kids have to pay for their AP tests?

I took them as a kid, but that was a looonnngg time ago.

I taught A.P. Physics at one point, but that was in a poor struggling school so lots of stuff was funded that wouldn't normally have been.  

[bettyandbob]

Do public school kids have to pay for their AP tests?

I took them as a kid, but that was a looonnngg time ago.

I taught A.P. Physics at one point, but that was in a poor struggling school so lots of stuff was funded that wouldn't normally have been.  

 

When I was in high school we had to pay. 30 years later in the same district students enrolled in AP classes in the district do not have to pay. Students who study on their own and not officially enrolled in an AP class have to pay for the exams they take. 

 

Every couple of years the cost comes up under budget issues. I think they should stop paying for the tests, perhaps offering a discount to low income students. But in the broad scheme of things there are other things in the school budget that should be kept before paying the fees for every student in an AP course. 

[Heather in VA]

Yes we are in VA and here, at least in our county, the students pay for the AP exams. The student in question is taking her courses at George Mason University so I'm sure it's not an accreditation problem.   The mom has no idea why she's being required to this and as one poster said she's worried because AP exams are so specific and she took a college course made for college kids not high schoolers taking the AP exam. So she's going crazy studying for the exam. It's just so wrong. But I'm relieved to hear everyone else things this is crazy too because I want to be sure if I decide to do any dual enrollment (NOT through the public school) that I won't have to expect to take the AP as well.  

[bettyandbob]

What county in VA? 

[Heather in VA]

Well I'm in Fairfax County as is George Mason University. The girl is in high school in Prince William - they pay for their exams as well. All the counties in the area that I am aware of do but that doesn't mean counties in other parts of the state aren't different. 

[bettyandbob]

Well I'm in Fairfax County as is George Mason University. The girl is in high school in Prince William - they pay for their exams as well. All the counties in the area that I am aware of do but that doesn't mean counties in other parts of the state aren't different. 

 

That's just weird. GMU has a satellite campus in Prince William. If I were the parent, I'd be bringing it up to the school board. I'd like them to explain why credits at a state accredited university need outside verification. 

 

The Fairfax website explains how classes taken on campus at NVCC and GMU are handled. I'm sure courses taken at other colleges would be handled similarly (summer classes), but these are the two closest campuses to, so I'm sure that's why they are named specifically. They do not expect outside verification from an AP exam. That makes no sense at all. 

[Kareni]

When you take dual enrollment courses is there any point in following it up with a CLEP or AP exam?

 

While she didn't take an AP exam following a community college class, my daughter did take an SAT subject test.  She took the SAT Math level 2 exam after taking College Algebra and Trigonometry classes at the local community college.  In her case she did so because a number of the four year colleges to which she was applying required two or three SAT subject test scores.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[SkateLeft]

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[LMV]

When you take dual enrollment courses is there any point in following it up with a CLEP or AP exam? It doesn't make sense to me that it would be needed since it's actually a college course. Yesterday I was talking to a mom of a public school student whose daughter is doing a few dual enrollment classes via the public school and a local university (not community college) but the school system says she has to take the AP exam as well. That sounds stupid to me. What worries me is that if our county is requiring this as dual enrollment increases then our state universities will start expecting it as well. 

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Is it possible that the AP course is a collaborative venture between her high school and the local university?  Our oldest DD took AP physics and the honors section of the course was actually physically taught on the campus of our local university by one of the college professors.  Her lab section consisted only of other high school students (and was somewhat adapted to fit the AP).  

 

DD18 never took any of the CLEP exams but she did take all three of the science SAT II subject tests. She wasn't required to take the subject tests to get credit for her courses but most of the schools she was applying to either required or strongly recommended applicants take the SAT II tests.  For this reason, she took SAT II tests after she completed each of her core science courses, took Math II after she finished Trigonometry,  and then worked in spanish and latin when they were convenient with the rest of her life.

[TechWife]

I was told at our community college that students from local high schools who take dual-enrollment classes do not get both high school and college credit for the class. I found that odd as the name dual-enrollment seems to imply two credits.

Dual enrollment means that they are enrolled in two schools at the same time. Here, the community colleges do not decide what high school credits a dual enrolled student earns. They only determine the grade and credit hours that are earned on a college level. It is up to the high school to decide what credit (if any) their students earn for courses they take at other institutions. I think this is as it should be - the colleges simply don't have the authority to award high school credits.

[TechWife]

Yesterday I was talking to a mom of a public school student whose daughter is doing a few dual enrollment classes via the public school and a local university (not community college) but the school system says she has to take the AP exam as well. That sounds stupid to me. What worries me is that if our county is requiring this as dual enrollment increases then our state universities will start expecting it as well. 

 

Am I missing something here?

 

The only reason I can see the high school requiring her to take the AP exam is if she is enrolled in an AP course at the high school (which may be the case). I know that here, if you take an AP course you are not required to take the exam. I imagine high schools vary on that policy, however.

[TechWife]

The school has told the students that they don't get credit for the course (on the high school side) if they don't take the AP exam. So technically they could remove it from the transcript or block graduation (or the higher diploma you get from the more advanced classes). But it's just nuts that they would required this test when it's not necessary. 

 

This just sounds like a huge scam to me. 

 

It is, however, the school's prerogative to decide the course requirements. If taking the AP exam is one of them, then the student needs to take the exam. I am at a loss as to why a student would take an AP class in a subject where they had already earned or were in the process of earning a college credit. 

 

ETA to see that the student isn't also enrolled in an AP course. However, it is still true that the school (or school district, perhaps) can decide the course requirements. 

[Heather in VA]

It is, however, the school's prerogative to decide the course requirements. If taking the AP exam is one of them, then the student needs to take the exam. I am at a loss as to why a student would take an AP class in a subject where they had already earned or were in the process of earning a college credit. 

 

ETA to see that the student isn't also enrolled in an AP course. However, it is still true that the school (or school district, perhaps) can decide the course requirements. 

 

Yes I agree. I've never questioned that the school system CAN do this.  I think my mistake is assuming there is a rational reason for something that clearly has no rational explanation. :-)