Pros and cons of future science major doing lower-level science and core classes as dual enrollment?

[shawthorne44]

If it were my child, I would find out what the DE college was using, and use it.  I would probably have my daughter contact a professor of that class and explain the situation, and ask for the syllabus.  If she goes through the science classes with you, then she should be able to Ace the real classes even with an aggressive schedule.  

[Atilla the Mom]

I said, <<Finally, another common Asian cultural belief is that we think it is valuable to let our children know how they perform relative to others. We think performance can always be improved, but NOT if you don't know that you face any need to do so. We reward perseverance not "ability"; ability is something that can change.>>

 

Alice or the Mad Hatter said <<And that pt absolutely contradicts your posts about test scores.>>

 

To which I respond, No it does not.  Test scores are changeable.  However, test scores do provide a measure as to where a particular student is at a particular point in time relative to his or her academic competition.  Putting comparatively weak students in highly competitive academic environments in which their classmates have an academic advantage is harmful to the weaker students. It is counterproductive to encourage a child to attend a college in which most students are likely to do better than him or her. 

 

 

•  

 

[8filltheheart]

I have never needed test scores to tell me anything about where my kids stand academically.   I am fully aware of their abilities and testing is simply a means to an end (checking off a box.)

 

The fact that test prep can improve student's scores and move them up several pts or that a bad day can make their score move down several pts means what exactly?   That test prep is a great way to improve the academic abilities of students?  That education should be geared toward teaching to the test so test scores rise?  

 

Call me completely skeptical.   That a kid can study a test prep book/watch videos/take a test prep class and have their score rise means absolutely nothing more than they have learned **how** to take the test, not improved anything about their actual academic abilities.   So a student that after test prep moves up into a higher % bracket, does that suddenly mean that they are now ready to match the abilities of the other students where 3 months prior they weren't?  :confused1:

[Atilla the Mom]

Regentrude said  << The overall goal of the university is to increase retention rates - not fail students. ....The idea that it would be beneficial for a college to flunk in state students so we can fill our classes with well paying foreigners is so far fetched that it is ridiculous. The university wants to be highly ranked in lists of ROI and have good stats with respect to graduation and retention rates - because that is what brings the enrollment increase. And yes, some students will leave a STEM discipline because they realize that they do not possess the necessary aptitude or desire, and that is OK.>>

 

 

First, retention rates are often cooked at large universities.  At my eldest dd's university, for example, students who were failing their first semester of freshman were automatically counselled to withdraw from all classes before the end of the semester, and then to reenroll for the second semester of freshman year.  This kept them from being tossed due to academic failure during their first year (and it is retention of first year student which is what is what gets counted.)  

 

Second, freshman are not good judges of their likelihood to graduate from a given institution.  If you look at the retention rates of failure factories, most of the cannon fodder return for a  second year. (At Arkansas State University Little Rock, whose six year graduation rate is 19% and whose transfer out rate is 24% for a total of 43% transfer/graduation, the first year student retention rate is 67%.)

 

Third, all large US national universities have traditionally had big auditorium "weeder" courses in the STEM disciplines. http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/stem-education/2012/04/19/experts-weed-out-classes-are-killing-stem-achievement .  What is new and different about weeders in the era of globalization, is that the university no longer has to fear that the disappointed students will transfer elsewhere, leaving them with a big hole in their budget.  Below are the 5 National universities with the highest percentage of foreign students, who I may say, disproportionately elect STEM majors.  Do you think that Purdue, a well known, low-cost, publically supported STEM university could financially afford to have a 70% six year graduation rate if it didn't know it could get transfer students to take their places?

 

University                                     Number of foreign students       Percent foreign students

 

University of Southern California 10,487                                       26%

Purdue University                          9,673                                       24%

University of Illinois                        9,605                                       22%

New York University                       9,247                                       21%

Columbia University                       9,201                                       35%

 

University                        First Year Student Retention  4-yr Grad Rate  6-yr grad rate

 

University of Southern California 97%                                  74%                 90%

Purdue University                        90%                                  39%                 70%

University of Illinois                      94%                                  69%                 84%

New York University                    92%                                  79%                  85%

Columbia University                    96%                                   88%                 95%

　

 

[Atilla the Mom]

<<I have had exactly one student fail (well, get a D in) the class after attending every class and doing every problem on every homework assignment. I suspect an undiagnosed learning disability, but at the end of the semester (in developmental algebra) this student was still adding x and x and coming up with x^2. This is the *only* time I have ever seen it happen.>>

 

Developmental algebra is not something that will get you credit  most places.  At present, in most State university systems, College Algebra is the lowest math for which you can get college credit, and that is high school Precalculus.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<Call me completely skeptical. That a kid can study a test prep book/watch videos/take a test prep class and have their score rise means absolutely nothing more than they have learned **how** to take the test, not improved anything about their actual academic abilities. So a student that after test prep moves up into a higher % bracket, does that suddenly mean that they are now ready to match the abilities of the other students where 3 months prior they weren't? :confused1:>>

 

If the reason that they had been previously unable to match the abilities of the other students was a deficit in test taking skills, then absolutely yes. Test taking skills are critical skills in academic settings.  My dd only recently managed to get the hang of addressing the formulaeic critical thinking writing prompts in her AP Biology class.  Big jump in her grades.  Does this mean that she is smarter? No, but it does mean that she is better able to handle this when she sees this type of prompt in college.  Which she will.  There is a lot more writing across the curriculum in colleges these days.

[kiana]

<<I have had exactly one student fail (well, get a D in) the class after attending every class and doing every problem on every homework assignment. I suspect an undiagnosed learning disability, but at the end of the semester (in developmental algebra) this student was still adding x and x and coming up with x^2. This is the *only* time I have ever seen it happen.>>

 

Developmental algebra is not something that will get you credit  most places.  At present, in most State university systems, College Algebra is the lowest math for which you can get college credit, and that is high school Precalculus.

 

Yes, that is correct, but irrelevant. You are completely missing my point. This one student (who was not able to make it into college-level coursework) was the *only* student I have ever had who attended all classes, submitted all homework, and still failed. Every other student I have had who failed the class (and I keep records of this) missed at least 10% of the classes and homework.

 

I realize that I'm not going to convince someone who's utterly convinced of her own worldview, but I really hope that anyone else reading this thread doesn't take your statements at face value. We *do* want these students to succeed. We offer multiple office hours, tutoring, review sessions, and we continually discuss methods of attempting to present the course material in more helpful ways.

 

They are not failing because we are trying to weed them out, and I find it frankly offensive that you continue this assertion. They are failing because despite all of the help we offer, they do not come to class, they do not submit the homework, and they do not come to office hours. Exceptions to this rule are few and far between.

[8filltheheart]

If the reason that they had been previously unable to match the abilities of the other students was a deficit in test taking skills, then absolutely yes. Test taking skills are critical skills in academic settings. My dd only recently managed to get the hang of addressing the formulaeic critical thinking writing prompts in her AP Biology class. Big jump in her grades. Does this mean that she is smarter? No, but it does mean that she is better able to handle this when she sees this type of prompt in college. Which she will. There is a lot more writing across the curriculum in colleges these days.

Apples and oranges. SAT and ACT tests are in a completely different category than APs or even SAT 2s.

[nerdybird]

As far as I can tell, merit scholarships at many public and private colleges including the Arkansas university system should be considered a mere discount off the first year's tuition.  I think U.S. colleges current financial strategies include running low paying, in-state students through a bunch of killer courses taught in auditorium settings containing a couple of hundred students apiece; dropping their GPAs into the toilet and losing them their scholarships causing them to leave the STEM majors for criminal justice, recreation studies, and other easy, low cost majors; and then filling the smaller, expensive to teach, upper level courses with high paying transfer students from foreign countries who AP'd & CLEP'd out of all their core curriculum , quite possibly by hiring stand-ins for the tests while they are still in China

 

 

The part that put in bold may be the case for the UofA Little Rock and some other public universities. However, this is not the primary financial strategy of the US college system. The primary strategy (imo) is to get as many young people as possible to take out government backed loans that one cannot EVER declare in bankruptcy cases. Their financial strategy is built upon debt and it is that thinking that drives higher educational financial policies here in the US.

 

If students lose their scholarships or grant funding, they will most often have to take out loans to continue to finance their education. Some will remain enrolled and finance their education with loans. Others drop out to take jobs. Some will transfer to lower cost institutions such as community colleges, vocational schools, or for profit institutions offering 2-3 year courses of study. Part of the trade off for these decisions is to choose a major that will guarantee job offers or perhaps an actual job placement upon or shortly after, program completion. Many students are not in a position to stick it out at a university if they lose a scholarship, don't quality for further grants or find themselves in precarious academic or personal situations. Those are just the laws of the collegiate jungle, imo.

 

If a student has taken out a large amount of loans to pursue an education, they also have a large debt burden here in the US. Some students can pay their loans off quickly. Most cannot. If you are comparing STEM students to the general student population, they tend to have higher debts than students in other majors. Some of this is program specific, maybe. A lot of it (imo, from what I gathered as a Comp Sci major) is because it takes some STEM students longer than they planned to complete their undergraduate work. A 4 year course of study can turn into 5 or 6 years and often does. If a STEM student chooses to go for a double major, a masters, a PhD or other opportunity, they may add additional semesters or years onto their initial stint at college.

 

There is also stiff competition amongst STEM majors, especially those in the Medical fields. There are limited spots in medical programs, and the additional years spent in school and residencies can majorly impact a student's future finances.

 

I can't say if foreign students face these same issues or not. Many are funded by scholarships or endowments. A portion of Chinese and other Asian students come from well-off families in their countries of origin who may be footing the bill upfront. That's something that many American families simply cannot afford to do, especially for the 6+ years that many STEM majors spend in school.

Here in the States, the emphasis (imho) will remain on majors that produce immediate employment. Knock criminal justice, nursing, education and other majors all you want; those majors are where a good deal of the jobs are these days. If your child is going leave school with $20k+ in debt in 4-6 years, you want them to be able to find a good job that pays a decent wage and offers some benefits. Neither they nor you can likely afford for them to plod along in the bottom half of students in a STEM major and then have no opportunities for advancement after completing a BS, imo.

 

*********

To the OP:

 

I would focus on maths as much as possible. If she has completed Algebra 1, focus on completing Geometry, Alg 2, and Pre-calc before she hits her junior year. For science, I would do Chemistry and Physics. Go as indepth as possible at home. Have her do LOTS of extra reading of a wide variety of authors from the Enlightenment-Modern Times. Encourage her to ask questions and to research things that she doesn't understand. If she hasn't done any dissections or studied anatomy, I would seek a semester opportunity through a CC or co-op for her to do so within the next two years.

 

I would also look into her doing some CAD or other computer applications. Such things are important for STEM majors. She needn't be an expert in using such things. It's the exposure that matters, imo. Same goes for building things, solving complex puzzles, and doing serious study of logic. The next few years should be about exploration. When she is 15-16, sit down and do a formal evaluation of what she wants to do, what colleges are on the table, etc. What seems appealing at 13 might not be rocking her boat at 16, ;). She may discover other interests or want to go abroad, do an apprenticeship, write a book, or something else.

[Bristayl]

 

To the OP:

 

I would focus on maths as much as possible. If she has completed Algebra 1, focus on completing Geometry, Alg 2, and Pre-calc before she hits her junior year. For science, I would do Chemistry and Physics. Go as indepth as possible at home. Have her do LOTS of extra reading of a wide variety of authors from the Enlightenment-Modern Times. Encourage her to ask questions and to research things that she doesn't understand. If she hasn't done any dissections or studied anatomy, I would seek a semester opportunity through a CC or co-op for her to do so within the next two years.

 

I would also look into her doing some CAD or other computer applications. Such things are important for STEM majors. She needn't be an expert in using such things. It's the exposure that matters, imo. Same goes for building things, solving complex puzzles, and doing serious study of logic. The next few years should be about exploration. When she is 15-16, sit down and do a formal evaluation of what she wants to do, what colleges are on the table, etc. What seems appealing at 13 might not be rocking her boat at 16, ;). She may discover other interests or want to go abroad, do an apprenticeship, write a book, or something else.

 

Thank you for this advice!

[regentrude]

 

They are not failing because we are trying to weed them out, and I find it frankly offensive that you continue this assertion. They are failing because despite all of the help we offer, they do not come to class, they do not submit the homework, and they do not come to office hours. Exceptions to this rule are few and far between.

 

Liking this was not enough, it had to be repeated.

The insinuation that we are actively trying to fail students so we can replace them with paying Chinese is an insult to all instructors who are caring about their students and go to great lengths to help them succeed.

[nerdybird]

Thank you for this advice!

 

I hope that my advice proves helpful.

 

Don't stress too much about putting together the perfect course of study for your DD. Go one year at a time. It's great to push if she is hungry, motivated to study and has something definite in mind at 13. Just don't let the pushing become pulling. Once you have to start pulling her along, then it's time to re-evaluate, imo. Too often, parents push their kids into pursuing STEM careers. Or at least that was the case back when I was in school, over a decade ago. A lot of people were only doing it because their parents said it was the sure thing, that we'd all get great jobs, etc. Some of us did, some of us didn't.

 

Being a woman in the STEM field is whole other can of worms too. Girls have to be twice as sure as guys and tough to boot. Pretty much everyone you deal with after your first 2 years is going to be male. Male profs approach things from a very different perspective. TE fields in particular tend to be oriented towards to individualistic, right brained types. You have to motivated, passionate about your studies, willing to work hard and stick the tough times out. You also have to be a good problem solver and have strong math skills if you're gonna make it far in either of those fields.

 

That's why I suggest that you give your daughter the math and science backgrounds she needs during the time you plan on having her at home. You should also focus on giving her a rounded education that will enable to pursue any interest, not just STEM ones. Sure, you can tailor her courses to maximize college credits and so on. But what if she doesn't go to college at 16-18? What if she lands an internship, gets offered an opportunity to travel or wants to start her own business? Or what if she meets someone special and wants to pursue a relationship?

 

There is no inherent harm (imho) in letting your DD simply be until she's old enough (mature enough) to make an informed decision on how she wants to spend her young adulthood. Dual credit enrollments are very demanding. Taking college courses as a teen are demanding as well. There's lots of testing (SATs, ACTs, APs, CLEPs, entrance exams, state exams...) involved and prepping for those takes time as well. There's admissions offices to track down, summer programs to research, grants and scholarships and FAFSAs and Lord knows what else to be applied for and hopefully obtained. It's not a path for everyone and it is definitely worth taking your time to decide if it's a path for your DD.

 

*All of the above are the ramblings of lady tech geek who is married to a manly tech geek and has 2 (possibly more!) future tech geeks in the nest. :P

[Bristayl]

 

Being a woman in the STEM field is whole other can of worms too. Girls have to be twice as sure as guys and tough to boot. Pretty much everyone you deal with after your first 2 years is going to be male. Male profs approach things from a very different perspective. TE fields in particular tend to be oriented towards to individualistic, right brained types. You have to motivated, passionate about your studies, willing to work hard and stick the tough times out. You also have to be a good problem solver and have strong math skills if you're gonna make it far in either of those fields.

 

 

Thanks for this perspective!

[vonfirmath]

I *assume* you live in Texas.  If cost is a factor - have you considered TAMS?  (Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science at UNT) I know the funding has changed since I went, but I started research in the neuro lab my first year (so, Jr high school, freshman college).  Graduated high school with 77 semester hours.  Many, many, many of my classmates went to A&M for their final two years, most in what would now be considered STEM.  And transitioned onto grad school.

 

And I don't know what your local college would be like compared to A&M....so, this may not compare.  But one of our friends son had taken AP Chem at local elite private school, received a 5 on the exam.  He decided not to take the credit at Wash U, and instead go ahead and take Chem 1, thinking it would be an "easy" transition class.  Nope.  It covered WAY WAY WAY more than AP did.  Even those who had taken dual enrollment science classes elsewhere and went into advanced classes were struggling because the material was far more in depth than at their local uni.  Unfortunately, their grades suffered as a result, yet they were competing for med / grad school with their colleagues who had not placed out.

 

Years ago, I did something similar with Calculus as a Computer Engineering student.  I got a 5 on the AP Calculus BC course. Skipped the 1st course (could have skipped 2) and took the 2nd. And I floundered.  I managed the course okay. But I never really recovered from having skipped that first Calculus at a college level (And we had an EXCELLENT HS teacher.)

[nerdybird]

Being a woman in the STEM field is whole other can of worms too. Girls have to be twice as sure as guys and tough to boot. Pretty much everyone you deal with after your first 2 years is going to be male. Male profs approach things from a very different perspective. TE fields in particular tend to be oriented towards to individualistic, right brained types. You have to motivated, passionate about your studies, willing to work hard and stick the tough times out. You also have to be a good problem solver and have strong math skills if you're gonna make it far in either of those fields.

 

 

Thanks for this perspective!

 

Expanded perspective:

 

There were ~70 of us in my major (comp sci) IIRC. There were only 3 women. I was the only American woman. The other two were from India.

 

I wouldn't trade my experience for anything. I met DH there. :D

 

BUT...it takes a thick skin for a woman to be in the STEM fields. You really have to love it, like I said earlier. Even loving your STEM major of choice won't keep you from getting distracted by cute STEM nerd guys. I speak from experience there. :P

 

*********

 

Nowadays, I really don't have much faith in domestic (US) higher education. If any of my kids is interested in following DH and my path in STEM careers, I'd rather send them to school abroad. Preferably northern Europe. Finland is one country my DH researched as a possibly for our kids. They have some of the best schools in the world, they speak English as a second language, there are some major tech players there (Nokia's HQ is there), and it is generally a safe country for a young adult to get their feet wet in, so to speak.

 

The biggest perk of Finnish higher ed (as of now, things may change in the future) is that university in Finland is free to all. That's right, FREE. Now, things may change in the future. And one still has to cover living expenses (which are in Euros, not dollars). However, I think that it may be worth it to get an undergrad in a country like Finland and then jump back to the US as a transfer for further studies if need be.

 

Canada also has some good schools. Not free, but may be cheaper than some US universities. Closer to home too.

 

If your DD really wants to be challenged, maybe looking into Asian schools would be the thing to do. Korean and Japanese universities are pretty competitive in STEM fields. Taiwan would be good too, or so I've heard.

 

Lots of thoughts tonight....:)

[Arcadia]

A lot of people were only doing it because their parents said it was the sure thing, that we'd all get great jobs, etc. Some of us did, some of us didn't.

A basic degree in engin was also broad based enough to go into other careers like finance or intellectual property/patents.

Being a woman in the STEM field is whole other can of worms too. Girls have to be twice as sure as guys and tough to boot. Pretty much everyone you deal with after your first 2 years is going to be male.

My engin hubby thinks ladies have to be as tough as Meg Whitman to succeed. The CEO's exec secretary (gatekeeper) is worth staying on cordial terms with.

*All of the above are the ramblings of lady tech geek who is married to a manly tech geek and has 2 (possibly more!) future tech geeks in the nest. :P

Same here :) My 9 year old now claims he wants to be an ice-cream shop owner on top of his original ambition to be an astronaut.

BUT...it takes a thick skin for a woman to be in the STEM fields. You really have to love it, like I said earlier. Even loving your STEM major of choice won't keep you from getting distracted by cute STEM nerd guys. I speak from experience there. :P

Handsome engineering guys on lifeguard duty is why my girlfriends want to go to the pool :) good thing about being in engin is that it easy to get a date to a last minute " need to show your face" event.

I was distracted by the supercomputers and end up working in high performance computing.

If your DD really wants to be challenged, maybe looking into Asian schools would be the thing to do. Korean and Japanese universities are pretty competitive in STEM fields. Taiwan would be good too, or so I've heard.

 

Legal drinking age is lower (common is 18 years old). Booting my kids back to Asia is in the cards especially if their humanities scores are as tragic as mine :lol:

 

ETA:

There are two community colleges that hubby and I are considering for dual enrollment because their reputation is good and the course fees are affordable.

[nerdybird]

Same here :) My 9 year old now claims he wants to be an ice-cream shop owner on top of his original ambition to be an astronaut.

 

 

DS1 wants to be a guitarist. DD wants to be a dancer. DS2 wants to be a "cartoon guy", whatever that means. The others are too little to have career aspirations, lol. I think that our oldest will make a fine AV guy or possibly a programmer someday. DD is very good at figuring out how things work and isn't afraid to get dirty. She's also a troubleshooter and very feisty and independent. I can see her doing something tech-y in the future. DS2 is probably going to be an athlete or something that requires a lot of movement, hands on type career. Can't say what yet.

 

Legal drinking age is lower. Booting my kids back to Asia is in the cards especially if their humanities scores are as tragic as mine :lol:

 

 

The legal drinking age is lower in most places than it is in the US. Here's a wiki page with an extensive chart of legal drinking ages around the world. I would boot mine for financial reasons. The price of college education here in the US is out of sight and growing more expensive by the day, it seems. There is no way that we will be able to afford education here for 4-5 of our kids. Just not going to happen, even though DH makes good money and we live in a fairly low-cost area of the country.

 

You can't bank on getting grants and scholarships to pay for it all. Probably cheaper to boot the kids abroad and hope for the best, imo.

[mysticmomma]

Please do not put her through orgo and physics in the same semester.

[Bristayl]

Please do not put her through orgo and physics in the same semester.

 

And yet that's what she would do her sophomore year of college, along with some gen eds. We are planning to frontload her high school years so that she does not have very much left to do that year other than dual enrollment. Because of where her birthday falls, she will turn 18 within a month of starting school that year, so she would be maybe a year and a half younger than the students in their sophomore year of college. Would that amount of time really make that big a difference? We are also planning to go through an orgo textbook beforehand.

[mysticmomma]

Orgo 2 and physics 2 are terrible to take together in college. They should be done in separate years if at all possible.

[Bristayl]

Orgo 2 and physics 2 are terrible to take together in college. They should be done in separate years if at all possible.

 

Ok, thanks for that feedback. I appreciate hearing from those with experience!

[Atilla the Mom]

<< However, this is not the primary financial strategy of the US college system. The primary strategy (imo) is to get as many young people as possible to take out government backed loans that one cannot EVER declare in bankruptcy cases. Their financial strategy is built upon debt and it is that thinking that drives higher educational financial policies here in the US.>>

 

I totally agree.  Most failure factories would be out of business, and the rest would reform, if their students couldn't take out government backed loans on which they could not ever declare bankrupty.  (I did mention that cost was a key factor in my choice of schools, as I want my younger kid to graduate, like her sister, without debt.) The foreign student influx, however is a strategy of large universities (including the ones in Arkansas), and disproportionately affects US minority students, since Australian and European students have their own, cheap, excellent, universities to attend.  As an overrepresented minority with underrepresented minority kids, that bit particularly irks me.

 

<< There is also stiff competition amongst STEM majors, especially those in the Medical fields. There are limited spots in medical programs, and the additional years spent in school and residencies can majorly impact a student's future finances.>>

 

Agreed.  And again, this is why I want my younger DD to attend a university in which she is likely to be in the upper fourth academically, rather than in the lower fourth or median.

 

 

<<Knock criminal justice, nursing, education and other majors all you want; those majors are where a good deal of the jobs are these days. >>

 

I think criminal justice and education do not have legs as careers, as the employers are the states.  I think we will see a wave of prison closures, and will also see 8-12 public education going online.  While those majors work as a useful "been to college" box-check,  I do not think that they are worthwhile majors from any other perspective. (Heck, I dont think history is particularly worthwhile either, but it is a useful box-check, does teach writing, and is a good platform for grad school.) I DO think nursing has legs, as I believe nurse practitioners will replace U.S. family practice physicians within 20 years or so, as has already happened in rural Canada. Right now there just aren't enough of them, but Obamacare will beat the specialist physicians back into generalists until there is a sufficient supply of mid-level providers. 

 

My eldest, who is 23, and has a BA in history with a 4.0 GPA plans to go down the nursing path as a part time student.  She works as a CNA, will marry in October, and wishes to combine post bac education with maintaining a job and raising a family. Those plans seem very sensible to me.  I think she will make an excellent wife and mother, and I do not wish her to wait until she is fully established in a career before starting a family: as I did.  I have discouraged both of my children from becoming physicians, although I myself am a physician and personally love the practice of medicine, as the physicians will definitely get the short end of this deal. However everybody who follows medicine should have seen this coming 10 years ago, and I have planned accordingly.

 

 

[Luckymama]

Orgo 2 and physics 2 are terrible to take together in college. They should be done in separate years if at all possible.

These two classes may be required to be taken at the same time, depending on the major and the school. I was a chemistry major. At my LAC organic and physics were taken during sophomore year as part of the course progression. A large university may have more wiggle room.

 

It was a difficult year, especially with the required math courses, but we all knew that going in to the year.

[nerdybird]

I think criminal justice and education do not have legs as careers, as the employers are the states.  I think we will see a wave of prison closures, and will also see 8-12 public education going online.  While those majors work as a useful "been to college" box-check,  I do not think that they are worthwhile majors from any other perspective.

 

 

I don't underestimate the power of bureaucracy. ;)

 

We are planning to frontload her high school years so that she does not have very much left to do that year other than dual enrollment.

 

 

I urge caution while taking this approach. Higher level maths and sciences are very demanding. It is best (imo) to take the time needed to truly master this subjects and nurture a passion for them. She may be ready to take a rigorous year of Organic Chem + Physics 2 at some point in her teens. You shouldn't hold her back if she read to do so.

 

You should try to make her gen eds as smooth sailing as possible. You should also make darn sure that her math skills are impeccable. It is possible for a bright student to knock out 2-3 science courses in a year if they have the right mindset, a strong work ethic and access to the right resources.

 

Math is a different story. Math requires discipline and mastery. Without mastery, all science and maths work is more difficult than it should be. Without discipline, it becomes easy to forgo serious studies of math until one reaches a crisis point. Math is also something that often needs to be supplemented, or taught multiple ways. Logic and problem solving go hand-in-hand with math as well. As I mentioned in an earlier post, those are areas that should not be neglected if you DD is going into an Engineering or Tech related field.

 

Plus I think it is *probably* easier to teach maths and correct lackluster maths skills at home than it is to teach and correct higher level science courses at home. More likely than not, she will have to take classes through AP courses, CC or co-ops to get lab experience anyway. So why the rush to frontload the last 2-3 years of high school with college level science before knowing where she will be maths wise?

 

[Bristayl]

Plus I think it is *probably* easier to teach maths and correct lackluster maths skills at home than it is to teach and correct higher level science courses at home. More likely than not, she will have to take classes through AP courses, CC or co-ops to get lab experience anyway. So why the rush to frontload the last 2-3 years of high school with college level science before knowing where she will be maths wise?

 

Yes, I definitely would  make adjustments as needed for her math level. When I was talking about frontloading, I meant that we would do a lot of the other subjects that we have to do at home in the earlier high school years (and a few in middle school) so that she could concentrate on the dual-enrolled science classes toward the end. She also does not like take a long summer break and often wants to start her next grade level within a week of finishing the previous one. I have encouraged her to take a little longer than that so as not to burn out, but when she keeps looking longingly at the books for the next grade, what's a Mom to do? So I allow her to work ahead for our at-home subjects, but for dual enrollment I would consider her to be in the grade she would be according to her age in our state. I am not advancing her official grade level even though she is working above it. So for that reason also, she may not have a lot of other subjects left to do by her senior year.

[nerdybird]

Ah, now I understand the frontloading thing. I was thinking that frontloading was loading 4-5 years of coursework into 3 years so she would be taking upper levels courses by 15-16, with possible early college entrance.

 

If you don't mind my asking, what is she currently taking? What are your tentative plans for next year?

 

I enjoy spitballing about STEM courses of study, as it is my old stomping grounds. :D You've probably already guessed as much though.

 

I will be on and off all day. Only one nerdling is in the nest today, so I am free to burn some time on the forums.

 

 

[Atilla the Mom]

kiana, on 01 May 2014 - 5:11 PM, said:

 

<<They are not failing because we are trying to weed them out, and I find it frankly offensive that you continue this assertion. They are failing because despite all of the help we offer, they do not come to class, they do not submit the homework, and they do not come to office hours. Exceptions to this rule are few and far between. >>

 

 

Qualified Beekeeper said

 

<<"Liking this was not enough, it had to be repeated. The insinuation that we are actively trying to fail students so we can replace them with paying Chinese is an insult to all instructors who are caring about their students and go to great lengths to help them succeed.>>

 

I'm not sure what it is you are teaching. If, by a STEM course you mean developmental algebra, than I agree that US community colleges, and the non-credit departments of 4 year universities indeed do a fine job of trying to get poorly prepared students up to the point at which they can take for credit classes. However, foreign students do not come here and take developmental algebra.  I am thinking about actual STEM major "weeder courses," the kind designed to thin the herd, by encouraging students to drop out or switch to less demanding majors. Biology for science majors, organic chemistry, physics for science majors, physical chemistry, Calculus II and III are "weeder" courses. Developmental algebra is a "feeder course."  It is designed to be passed by almost anybody.

 

[regentrude]

 

Qualified Beekeeper said

 

<<"Liking this was not enough, it had to be repeated. The insinuation that we are actively trying to fail students so we can replace them with paying Chinese is an insult to all instructors who are caring about their students and go to great lengths to help them succeed.>>

 

I'm not sure what it is you are teaching. If, by a STEM course you mean developmental algebra, than I agree that US community colleges, and the non-credit departments of 4 year universities indeed do a fine job of trying to get poorly prepared students up to the point at which they can take for credit classes. However, foreign students do not come here and take developmental algebra.  I am thinking about actual STEM major "weeder courses," the kind designed to thin the herd, by encouraging students to drop out or switch to less demanding majors. Biology for science majors, organic chemistry, physics for science majors, physical chemistry, Calculus II and III are "weeder" courses. Developmental algebra is a "feeder course."  It is designed to be passed by almost anybody.

 

 

I am teaching calculus based physics for science and engineering majors.

On average, 20% of students fail this kind of course in any given semester, almost exclusively because they put in insufficient time and effort. The majority of those will pass upon retaking, although occasionally a student needs 3-4 tries to get his act together (which is an indication that those students are not in the right field and maybe not at the right place in college in general.) The percentage of students who drop out of their major completely because of failing physics is small.

 

The course is not designed to weed out any students or "thin the herd" - this would be an absurd waste of resources. It simply is a prerequisite for other courses, and students who are unable to master this material are not qualified to move on and have to retake it until they get it - just like calculus. Nobody "makes" calculus hard in order to fail students, it just turns out that it *is* a difficult subject for many students, and not all students achieve sufficient mastery the first time they enroll.

 I fail to see what exactly your point is. Are you are proposing it would be beneficial to graduate STEM majors with insufficient mastery of basic mathematics and science? If our STEM graduates were poorly qualified because we lowered the standards so that everybody passed on the first try, companies would likely prefer to hire engineers who were educated elsewhere in the world. And I certainly would prefer to drive cars and cross bridges designed by engineers with a better education.

 

 

[Atilla the Mom]

<<I am teaching calculus based physics for science and engineering majors.  On average, 20% of students fail this kind of course in any given semester, almost exclusively because they put in insufficient time and effort. The majority of those will pass upon retaking, although occasionally a student needs 3-4 tries to get his act together (which is an indication that those students are not in the right field and maybe not at the right place in college in general.) The percentage of students who drop out of their major completely because of failing physics is small.>>

 

Does the 20% fail rate also include withdrawals?  If so, your school does very well for a calc based physics course designed for science majors, and I would be interested in knowing its name. (If not, never mind.)  However, the national college failure rate for Calculus I is 40%, including, in previous years, at U of Colorado. Nevertheless, 95% of U of Colorado, Boulder students WERE able to pass Calculus I when it was redesigned as a two semester course, and voluntary, nongraded, oral assessments were introduced into the course. That suggests that this business of "insufficient time and effort" on the part of the students was a cop-out:  at least at University of Colorado.

 

http://www.colorado.edu/engineering/academic-programs/oral-assessments-help-freshmen-understand-and-pass-calculus

 

I feel when a school is unable to get at least 80% of college ready students  (defined by their COMPASS scores, high school GPAs, and lack of need for remedial coursework) to pass a given college level course, the fault lies as much with the college as with the student. I feel that disclosure would help greatly in this area; i.e. colleges should be REQUIRED to post pass/fail/withdrawal scores for their courses on their online course catalogs, with a link to their web pages, in order to be eligible for student loans.  After all, while I agree with you that it is certainly important that STEM graduates attain mastery of basic mathematics and science, I trust that you will agree with me that it is EQUALLY important that STEM instructors attain mastery of of the teaching skills needed to successfully teach STEM courses. And I certainly would prefer to send my children to universities where they are taught by instructors capable of delivering such an education.

 

I also suggest you look at the data at the following URL

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/neighborhoods/2008/09/04/Required-courses-can-boost-degree-of-difficulty/stories/200809040302#ixzz30a07zhZr

 

 

[regentrude]

Does the 20% fail rate also include withdrawals?

 

With withdrawals, I'd say approx 25%. Anytime the rate goes significantly above 25%, warning bells go off. Significant outliers usually point to issues with the instructor in charge of the course (for example when a substitute takes over for the experienced professor.)

 

Nevertheless, 95% of U of Colorado, Boulder students WERE able to pass Calculus I when it was redesigned as a two semester course, and voluntary, nongraded, oral assessments were introduced into the course. That suggests that this business of "insufficient time and effort" on the part of the students was a cop-out:  at least at University of Colorado.

 

Why? Stretching calculus 1 over two semesters effectively requires the students to spend only half as much time and effort on the course each semester as they would have to otherwise. Sure, if you are going at half speed, more people will pass... and the degree program will take 8 years instead of 4 if that is done across the board in all subjects. This example shows that if you only expect half as much work from the students, more are likely to pass - exactly the point.

 

But even so, initiatives like this disprove your claim that universities intentionally fail in state students so they can collect full tuition from foreigners. So i am not sure why you are citing this example.

 

I feel that disclosure would help greatly in this area; i.e. colleges should be REQUIRED to post pass/fail/withdrawal scores for their courses on their online course catalogs, with a link to their web pages, in order to be eligible for student loans.  After all, while

 

What do you mean by "pass/fail/withdrawal scores"? Do you mean percentages? If so, I believe that data is public knowledge. Students can find the grade distributions  and GPAs for courses taught by specific instructors online if they wish to obtain this information.

[Bristayl]

If you don't mind my asking, what is she currently taking? What are your tentative plans for next year?

 

Well, I may as well post the whole plan for everyone to take shots at! No, seriously, I started this thread wanting some pushback. I appreciate how this forum gives me things to consider that I hadn't thought of.

 

 

I adjust the plan regularly according to dd's interests/abilities and according to new information, so I have no problem with continuing to adjust it if proves to be too much.

 

 

Grade 7 (just finished):

 

History/Bible/English: Sonlight Core H World History part 2

 

Math: Algebra and some Geometry 

 

(we are doing them somewhat simultaneously)

Science: Biology (to prepare for dual enrollment; this will not go on the transcript)

 

Foreign Language: Spanish I

 

Piano

 

 

Grade 8 (which will start this month if dd has her way!):

 

History/Bible: Sonlight Core 200 History of Christianity

 

English: Sonlight Core 200 Classic Literature

 

Math: Algebra/Geometry 

 

Science: Chemistry (to prepare for dual enrollment; this will not go on the transcript)

 

Foreign Language: Spanish II

 

Art of the Western World and DSST exam (to see if she likes earning college credit by exam; if not, we will do the remaining credits by dual enrollment)

 

Public speaking

 

Piano

 

 

Grade 9:

 

History/Bible: Sonlight Core 100 American History and CLEP US History I and II

 

English: Sonlight Core 400 American Literature

 

Math: Algebra/Geometry

 

Science: Organic Chemistry (to prepare for dual enrollment, possibly using an “Organic first†book intended for college freshmen that I found elsewhere on this forum; will not go on the transcript)

 

Foreign Language: Spanish III

 

Sonlight Psychology and CLEP Introductory Psychology

 

Computer Science (not sure yet what exactly to do for this)

 

Public speaking

 

Piano

 

 

Grade 10:

 

Government and Economics: Sonlight 400 and CLEP American Government

 

English: Sonlight 530 British Literature

 

Math: Trigonometry and Precalculus

 

Science: Physics (to prepare for dual enrollment; will not go on the transcript)

 

Foreign Language: Spanish IV

 

Sonlight “What Good is Christianityâ€

 

 

Grade 11:

 

At home:

 

History/Bible: Sonlight Core 300 20^th Century World History

 

English: Sonlight Core 300 20^th Century Literature

 

Math: Calculus and CLEP Calculus (or we may decide to do Calculus as dual enrollment)

 

Possibly Reasons to Believe’s “Good Science, Good Faith†(not sure yet—has anyone done this?)

 

Dual enrollment:

 

Summer: Composition and Rhetoric, Music Appreciation, Business Algebra

 

Fall: Biology I, Chemistry I

 

Spring: Biology II, Chemistry II

 

 

Grade 12:

 

At home:

 

English: World Literature

 

Math: Statistics (to prepare for upper-level statistics in college; probably won’t go on transcript)

 

Sonlight Bible/Philosophy 500 (not the history part)

 

Dual enrollment:

 

Summer: Public Speaking, Technical Writing, Texas State Government

 

Fall: Organic Chemistry I, Physics I

 

Spring: Organic Chemistry II, Physics II

 

 

Extracurriculars (as of this year—grade 7):

 

4-H club focused on Veterinary Science; the program includes doing an apprenticeship with a vet.

 

Homeschool track club (not sure if she will continue all the way through high school)

 

Missionary Kid youth group

 

 

As I said upthread, she may be done with the Sonlight and other non-STEM subjects earlier than this plan indicates because she does not like to take a long summer break before starting the next year’s work. We may decide not to do English at home in grade 12 and count the dual enrollment English classes as her fourth year of English. We also may decide not to do Statistics. We may try to get permission to start dual enrollment in grade 10 so as to spread out the classes more.

 

[Trilliums]

A while back I briefly looked at TAMU degree plan for electrical engineering for DS (we are not in Texas but DH is from there).  As I recall, the students  take an engineering class each semester; this may be a limiting factor for your daughter to accelerate unless multiple engineering classes can be taken each semester.  They seemed to be designed to be taken in sequence although I did not spend a considerable amount of time analyzing the sequence.  :)  I remember a discussion about how this makes it hard for students to transfer into engineering and still graduate in four years even if they have had many of the gen ed requirements taken care of already.

 

As your daughter's plans solidify, I also recommended talking to an undergrad adviser in the College of Eng in her desired area.  DS has taken classes at the Univ here based on various recommendations, but it was only after talking with an ug adviser (physics, not engineering) that we gained the whole picture for how the classes progress. 

Here, high school students are limited in the number of semester hours they can take at the U.  Your daughter may find she prefers taking one science and one math concurrently rather than two sciences...of course, she may prefer the opposite. :)

 

DS did take it easy his first Univ lvl class.  He did not find it overwhelming at all, and he probably could have taken on more than one class to begin with.  Nonetheless, I am glad he did not end up in the opposite situation where he was struggling to cope.  He took on more independent studies with coursera, so it all worked out.

 

 

 

And on the veered off subject of weeder classes....

Just anecdotal, but DS took a "weeder" calc based physics at our state U this year.  It was a large lecture with several smaller discussions.  DS was often the only student out of over 20 to show up for his weekly discussion group.  On Fridays the lecture was missing 1/3- 1/2 of the students.   Going into the final, ~ 72% and above was considered an A (top 15%).  I do not know any statistics for grades, drops, etc or if there was even a correlation between attendance and grades, but it was evident that a portion of the student body was not bothering to put in even the basic class time. 

 

 

ETA:

I see you posted a proposed schedule. 

I'd be reluctant to cover science in grades 9 and 10 but not plan on including them on the transcripts.  If something happens in grades 11 and 12 and she is not able to complete the equivalent of 4 years of science, she may end up lacking in science credits.  I would strive to cover the subject adequately in any given year and assign a high school credit for the material covered.

I'd also be reluctant to plan on calculus in grade 11 and then statistics in 12...then going into college, will she end up in calculus 3 after a year on statistics?  Not sure what the math progression is for her intended field of study, but I'd want to make sure my student has recently taken the most pertinent math class.  She could continue with her math sequence at the U as you mention.

 

 

Best regards :)

[snowbeltmom]

Just wondering why you would not list the science and math classes that your daughter studies at home on the transcript.  For example, if you don't list the statistics class, anyone evaluating the transcript will assume that your daughter did not study math her senior year of high school. 

[Atilla the Mom]

<<Why? Stretching calculus 1 over two semesters effectively requires the students to spend only half as much time and effort on the course each semester as they would have to otherwise. Sure, if you are going at half speed, more people will pass... and the degree program will take 8 years instead of 4 if that is done across the board in all subjects. This example shows that if you only expect half as much work from the students, more are likely to pass - exactly the point.>>

 

Calculus 1 was a two semester course in every 4 year college when I was in college in the late 1970s.  Nevertheless, we almost universally got through college in 4 years because the average courseload was 4 courses and 12 credits a semester.  This move to 5 courses and 15 credits per semester was the result of shoving in a large number of required "core curriculum" courses into the college experience, and then pretending that what previously had required 2 semesters to master could now be done in one, and dropping the credits for what had previously been a full year, 6 credit course to 3 credits for the one semester.  This was a purely rent seeking move by the universities. I consider it the major reason why nearly everybody got through college in 4 years in 1979, but only half the college population gets through college in 6 years today.   (This despite the Internet, which has made many of these Core Curriculum courses obsolete.  Who needs Art, Music or Theatre Appreciation, or for that matter, Wellness, Oral Communications, and literature in the age of the Internet?  NONE of these courses were required for science majors when I finished my bachelors in 1979.  The amassed libraries of the civilized world are accessible to me on my Nook. If I want to look at art, or listen to music, they are only a click away.  Just earlier this week I was watching a free, full performance of The Magic Flute on Youtube.  Sure I prefer my opera in person, but video is not a bad second.

 

Of note, Calculus 1 is now being trialed as a 6 week summer course in many colleges.  That is how 1 semester Calculus was trialed.  Really dumb idea, imho, but doubtless it will become universal; it is another way to enhance revenue.  Pretty soon the unis will say that Calculus 1 ought to be handled in 3 weeks by a properly prepared student, and anybody who can't handle it is 2D2BAS (too dumb to be a student), but I think around that time the colleges themselves will be killed off by MOOCs and EOC exams in every subject.  The sad part of that is that by then, even those people who loved their time in college such as myself, will breathe a sigh of relief and devoutly thank God.

 

<<But even so, initiatives like this disprove your claim that universities intentionally fail in state students so they can collect full tuition from foreigners.>>

 

The initiative was grant related and federally funded. Need I say more? Publish or perish, yes?

 

<<What do you mean by "pass/fail/withdrawal scores"? Do you mean percentages? If so, I believe that data is public knowledge. Students can find the grade distributions and GPAs for courses taught by specific instructors online if they wish to obtain this information.>>

 

Obviously I mean percentages.  Prospective students and their parents who are checking out colleges can NOT readily find the grade distributions and GPAs for courses online.  "Perhaps that means they are 2D2BAS," I hear you say?  I could just as easily say, "what do you mean hospitals should post costs for elective medical procedures such as cataract surgery?  If patients want to obtain this information, it is readily available by calling around, and doing a little price shopping." Nevertheless, most patients do not feel that routine elective surgical costs are easily priceshopped. (Could this mean that they are 2D2BAP?) Apparently the feds think not. That is why part of the Obamacare act now requires this information to be publically disclosed. Neither are the real costs of specific colleges readily priceshopped, and those real prices include course failure rates in the majors that students plan to take prior to arrival on campus. 

 

However, the national college failure rate for Calculus I is 40%, including, in previous years, at U of Colorado.

 

I'm not sure I believe this statistic.  I just checked my big-state-school alma mater, and 90% of the Calc I students last semester received a "C" or above.  This doesn't count the "withdraw before drop date", but there's no way 35% of the enrolled students do.

 

Most colleges post a "grade distribution report", can you find one from a reputable school that shows 40% failure rate?

[regentrude]

Prospective students and their parents who are checking out colleges can NOT readily find the grade distributions and GPAs for courses online. . 

 

 

myedu.com

This site aggregates the published data form the schools. It is mandatory for schools to disclose this information.

Or search for "Grade distribution report" and your college.

 

[Luckymama]

Just wondering why you would not list the science and math classes that your daughter studies at home on the transcript. For example, if you don't list the statistics class, anyone evaluating the transcript will assume that your daughter did not study math her senior year of high school.

I'm curious as well. Are you worried about having "too many" classes listed? If she studies and does well, she should get the credit. My dd will have many, many math classes on her transcript :)

 

What do you use for math?

[nerdybird]

Only commenting on math and science.

You are using an integrated approach to maths, which is a bit different than the traditional scope of maths here in the US.

If you are listing math on transcripts, you may want to check and make sure that your college(s) of choice accept Integrated Maths IF you are listing them as such.

Personally, I would list her maths as follows:
Y7 - Algebra 1
Y8 - Algebra 2
Y9 - Trig + Statistics (Statistics is often a semester course, so it could be taught concurrently with Geometry and there would be no big loss there
Y10 - Pre-calculus (This is the kicker. I'd want to be done with Pre-calc by the end of Y10. However, I wouldn't rush through Algebra to get there.)
Y11 - Calculus (I would not CLEP Calculus. This is a foundational course for STEM majors. Dual enrollment would probably be a better option. Or direct enrollment in a transferable online or CC-taught course.)

Alternatively, if it is a sound idea, you could list her maths as such:
Y7 - Integrated Maths 1 (Algebra 1 + Geometry)
Y8 - Integrated Maths 2 (Algebra 2 + Geometry)
Y9 - Integrated Maths 3 (Stats + Trig + Intensive Algebra Review)
Y10 - Pre-calculus

Granted, if she works through summers, she will likely be able to start Pre-calc midway thru Y9. That would have her finishing Pre-calc midway through Y10 and may free her up to take a semester course or simply move right into Calculus 1, Calculus AB or whatever Calculus you are using.

Sciences

She should read at least one science themed non-fiction book each semester. Carefully selected and discussed, of course. If you want to assign writing, I would assign it based on these and not her actual science curriculum books. I would also look into opportunities for Science Olympiad if there is a group in your area.

Y7 - Biology
Summer: Consider looking into a programming or robotics project or course for her. Purchase a kit or two and let her experiment with it. Give her some reading to do as well.

 

Y8 - Chemistry + Anatomy and/or Microbiology course. (I'd do semester courses or look for a solid online course and purchase dissection kits.)
Summer: Anat or Micro course if not done during the year. Free study of CAD, programming, modeling, or robotics. Possible science camp.

 

Y9 - Physics (Supplement with problem solving and hands on building projects) + Intensive Chemistry Review and Additional Labs + Research Project or Science Fair Project. (Something that will make her stand out when it comes time for college applications and portfolios.)
Summer: Supplemental Astronomy, Zoology, Botany, and/or Geology units. Programming or robotics course if interested. Possible science camp.

 

Y10 - Intro to Organic Chem @ Home. Find an online course (iTunes U, Open Courseware, other option) that will teach the basics. Have her work slowly through the text(s) of your choice. She should participate in a science fair, essay contest, internship or other outside science endeavor during this year as well.
Summer: Continue study of Organic Chem @ Home. Prep for whatever College-level courses she will take in fall. Internship, maybe. Possible job opportunity if available.

 

Y11 -  Chemistry @ College or Dual Enroll.
Summer: ???

 

Y12 - Biology @ College or Dual Enroll. Work or internship opportunities.

That is serious science. Yet if she is truly interested and engaged, it will keep her going. I hope she stays hungry for the sciences.

Other:
I would trade out Spanish IV for Latin I/II if you decide to do Organic Chemistry in Y10. This would possibly give her a light course to put on her transcript that will also help her down the road. Science has lots of Latin terms scattered throughout. Some classical science works are written in Latin as well. It's good knowledge to have if you are doing anything in the S fields or the M fields.

If you are looking to challenge or give her a leg up on the competition, you could also swap out Spanish IV with Chinese. But that would not be for the faint of heart!

Final Thoughts: I'd move Composition and Rhetoric to Y9 or Y10, if she is ready. It could remain a summer course or be paced throughout 1-2 school years. Rhetoric is important in STEM fields and strong writing skills are essential for college courses, imo. That would also potentially lighten her course load for the first year of college. The workload in Y10 and/or Y11 should be relatively light. You should plan for Organic Chemistry + whatever math she is doing that year to be the primary focus subjects and for all else except studies of faith to take a backseat during this year. Not that they should be neglected. Just that they should not be a priority over Organic Chem and Maths during that year.

 

Just wondering why you would not list the science and math classes that your daughter studies at home on the transcript.  For example, if you don't list the statistics class, anyone evaluating the transcript will assume that your daughter did not study math her senior year of high school.

 

 

Not listing courses is a bit strange to me as well. I can understand not listing Middle Grade courses, but anything she takes from Y9 on out should be listed on the transcripts, imo. Otherwise, the persons looking at the transcript will assume that she hasn't taken X course(s) and it may cause confusion and chaos come time for dual enrollment or actual enrollment.

[Arcadia]

You are using an integrated approach to maths, which is a bit different than the traditional scope of maths here in the US.

....

If you are looking to challenge or give her a leg up on the competition, you could also swap out Spanish IV with Chinese. But that would not be for the faint of heart!

 Swapping out Spanish IV with Chinese 1 would seems weird because Spanish is not completed.  It would be different if OP's daughter finish Spanish IV in 9th grade and did another language in 10th grade.   Spanish IV is often AP Spanish in the public schools.

If you are thinking of swapping Spanish IV for Chinese IV, that would be too uphill unless you are talking about students who's Chinese standard is at an unofficial level of Chinese III already.

 

OP's schedule of Spanish IV at 10th grade makes sense as that would fulfill two years of foreign language in high school and leave more time for other subjects in 11th and 12th grade.

 

As for the integrated math approach, I'm guessing that OP might be looking at SAT Math 2, AP Stat and AP Calc so how it is worded on the transcript won't matter as much.  I am looking at those because of satisfying UC's A-G criteria.

[Bristayl]

A while back I briefly looked at TAMU degree plan for electrical engineering for DS (we are not in Texas but DH is from there).  As I recall, the students  take an engineering class each semester; this may be a limiting factor for your daughter to accelerate unless multiple engineering classes can be taken each semester.  

 

Thanks for this note; at present she is actually thinking of biomedical science rather than engineering, and looking at the degree plan for that, it seems that it would work out. A good thought, though, since you never know what she might decide in the future. In any case, I have been encouraged on this thread not to expect her to accelerate too much once she is in college, but rather use the time she has "bought" to do advanced courses, research, co-op, etc.

[Bristayl]

Only commenting on math and science.

 

Thanks for all these suggestions!

 

About the math, I hadn't really intended to do integrated math, it just sort of worked out that way. I was still planning to list them separately on the transcript.

 

I was planning on listing the dual enrollment classes as her high school science rather than the preparatory studies we would be doing at home. But I may re-think that.

 

I'll copy all these ideas and look into the things you suggested. Thanks!

 

...in the late 1970s.  Nevertheless, we almost universally got through college in 4 years because the average courseload was 4 courses and 12 credits a semester. 

 

I'm having a hard time believing this statistic also.  You are implying that BA/BS degrees routinely ("universally") required only 96 credits.  Can you provide any evidence for this claim?  I bet that for most colleges it was at least 120 credits hours, pretty much same as today.

[nerdybird]

 Swapping out Spanish IV with Chinese 1 would seems weird because Spanish is not completed.  It would be different if OP's daughter finish Spanish IV in 9th grade and did another language in 10th grade.   Spanish IV is often AP Spanish in the public schools.

If you are thinking of swapping Spanish IV for Chinese IV, that would be too uphill unless you are talking about students who's Chinese standard is at an unofficial level of Chinese III already.

 

OP's schedule of Spanish IV at 10th grade makes sense as that would fulfill two years of foreign language in high school and leave more time for other subjects in 11th and 12th grade.

 

As for the integrated math approach, I'm guessing that OP might be looking at SAT Math 2, AP Stat and AP Calc so how it is worded on the transcript won't matter as much.  I am looking at those because of satisfying UC's A-G criteria.

 

 

It really depends on how you list it on the transcripts and how in depth your coursework is in Spanish. Sure, you could do Spanish IV and in all likelihood, that is the path of least resistance. However, my initial suggestion was only meant to be taken IF the student was pursuing Organic Chem that year. The initial suggestion was swapping out Spanish IV for Latin I/II on the premise that Latin would be a lighter and potentially more useful course.

 

Chinese would be a suggestion if you were looking to add some variety to a transcript. Tons of kids will be coming through with Spanish IV on their transcripts. Some kids with Spanish V or other equivalents. Few kids will coming through with any Chinese. Even a single year of Chinese could potentially be impressive to a perspective school since so much of our industry here in the States is tied to China nowadays. Even more competitive would be to up the ante by taking as much Chinese as possible and counting credits towards that for actual college admission. 2-3 years of Chinese study is a very formidable and respectable task and something useful and impressive, imo.

 

If the OP's DD studies at an accelerated rate year round, she may very well finish Spanish IV by Y9 anyway, or be very close to doing so. Then OP could list Spanish III and IV on the transcript, do a light year or two of Latin or pursue Chinese and she would still have 2 years of FL on the transcript.

 

You could list AP Maths, but isn't that only if the you sit for and pass the AP exams? Also, IIRC (can't see the post atm) the OP was not listing DD's Y7 and Y8 maths on the transcript. If that's the case, DD would be sans at least one year of algebra on the transcript. How do you explain that? Or do you really have to if your student is accelerated?

 

I suppose it depends on the school's requirements and how much the student completes by the end of high school years. One can plan on making it through 2-3 years of calc in high school  but that doesn't mean that the student will actually complete them in the timeframe given.

[Atilla the Mom]

<< I'm not sure I believe this statistic. I just checked my big-state-school alma mater, and 90% of the Calc I students last semester received a "C" or above. This doesn't count the "withdraw before drop date", but there's no way 35% of the enrolled students do. Most colleges post a "grade distribution report", can you find one from a reputable school that shows 40% failure rate?>>

 

　

I can't get into your site. You may be correct, however. I suspect the 40% number dates from 1987; "in a meeting in Washington in 1987, mathematicians reported that as many as 40 percent of undergraduates were failing introductory calculus, and even those who passed did not appreciate the subjects relevance." 

 

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/1/7/7/0/p117708_index.html

 

The Cockrell School of Engineering at the University of Texas Austin is considered a reputable school, and their fail rate appears to be about 12%. Numbers are estimated from http://stepcentral.net/projects/264  which states that "the goal of [a project improving retention in engineering by incorporating applications into freshman calculus] is to decrease failure rates in the redesigned first-year calculus courses by 50 percent, raising first-year retention by 100 students annually to 94 percent, and increasing the number of engineering graduates from the Cockrell School of Engineering at UT Austin by 110 per year. "

 

It is assumed that the redesigned course will cut failure rate in Calc I by 50%, increasing first year retention by 100 students annually to 94% .

 

Let F = Percentage of students who currently fail Calc 1

Let 0.5 F = 100%-94% = 6%

F = 12%

 

[Bristayl]

 Also, IIRC (can't see the post atm) the OP was not listing DD's Y7 and Y8 maths on the transcript. If that's the case, DD would be sans at least one year of algebra on the transcript. 

 

I was planning to list them, but in a separate section of courses completed before high school.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks for all these suggestions!

 

About the math, I hadn't really intended to do integrated math, it just sort of worked out that way. I was still planning to list them separately on the transcript.

 

I was planning on listing the dual enrollment classes as her high school science rather than the preparatory studies we would be doing at home. But I may re-think that.

 

I'll copy all these ideas and look into the things you suggested. Thanks!

 

There is no issue with listing a high school level chemistry course on the transcript, particularly if that demonstrates that a science credit was taken during one of those high school years, then listing the dual enrollment course with its college title and a footnote or asterisks to show it was taken at the community college.

 

In my mind, to not list the high school level science courses, just because a deeper level was taken later would be like not listing 9th grade English, just because in 11th grade a dual enrollment English course was taken.

 

You might also want to proceed with your plans held lightly. Things change, sometimes with little warning. We recently moved from a state where CC courses were easy to arrange for homeschooled high schoolers to one where it is administratively much more challenging. Some of the local CC campuses are not accepting ANY high school students except those attending partner public high schools. This is in response to growing enrollment and state budget cuts.  So I would arrange her early years in a way that possibilities are held open, but if dual enrolment doesn't come to pass, she isn't hindered by past choices.

[regentrude]

I'm having a hard time believing this statistic also.  You are implying that BA/BS degrees routinely ("universally") required only 96 credits.  Can you provide any evidence for this claim?  I bet that for most colleges it was at least 120 credits hours, pretty much same as today.

 

It was actually more, not less. Here is a detailed analysis of engineering education.

http://asee-gsw.tulane.edu/pdf/a-reflection-on-changes-in-engineering-education-in-the-last-40-years.pdf

 

In the early 1970’s a typical engineering program required a minimum semester credit hours (SCH)of course work ranging between 134-140.....

Starting in early 1990s engineering programs became under increasing pressure by external forces to reduce the number of hours required for a degree

 

The paper has detailed lists where cuts have been made.

[Bristayl]

There is no issue with listing a high school level chemistry course on the transcript, particularly if that demonstrates that a science credit was taken during one of those high school years, then listing the dual enrollment course with its college title and a footnote or asterisks to show it was taken at the community college.

 

In my mind, to not list the high school level science courses, just because a deeper level was taken later would be like not listing 9th grade English, just because in 11th grade a dual enrollment English course was taken.

 

You might also want to proceed with your plans held lightly. Things change, sometimes with little warning. We recently moved from a state where CC courses were easy to arrange for homeschooled high schoolers to one where it is administratively much more challenging. Some of the local CC campuses are not accepting ANY high school students except those attending partner public high schools. This is in response to growing enrollment and state budget cuts.  So I would arrange her early years in a way that possibilities are held open, but if dual enrolment doesn't come to pass, she isn't hindered by past choices.

 

Good point. Thank you.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

You might want to take a look at the Chemistry and Biology threads pinned at the top of the high school board. Those threads might give you some ideas for books to use in strong high school level science courses.

 

You might also take a look at the Conceptual Physical Science or Conceptual Integrated Science books with Hewitt and Suchocki.  I've been using the first with my youngest son. I'm pretty impressed with it as an introduction to scientific ideas. I have a copy of the Integrated Science book and it is very similar. Each section is stand alone, so you could skip around through the topics you wanted to cover.

 

 

[Bristayl]

You might want to take a look at the Chemistry and Biology threads pinned at the top of the high school board. Those threads might give you some ideas for books to use in strong high school level science courses.

 

You might also take a look at the Conceptual Physical Science or Conceptual Integrated Science books with Hewitt and Suchocki.  I've been using the first with my youngest son. I'm pretty impressed with it as an introduction to scientific ideas. I have a copy of the Integrated Science book and it is very similar. Each section is stand alone, so you could skip around through the topics you wanted to cover.

 

Yes, those threads are great! I've also been searching other threads in this forum and finding lots of good info!