vent: slacker moms, uncertain teacher

[fdrinca]

My school-aged children (K and 1) participate in a few enrichment classes through our home-study charter school. My preschooler participates in the classes, when appropriate, with my supervision and assistance. I also have a 9 month old who is with me as well. If my preschooler weren't intent in participating, I'd leave my older kids at class, since the two littles would be better served by spending a few hours at the playground.

 

I leave our science class every week really, really irritated with the other mothers in our group. The teacher needs assistance. There are 8 students, including my own three, and the rest are K4, K, or have some developmental issues that make classroom settings difficult for them. 

 

But the other mothers who could help? The mothers of the young children, or the mothers without infants strapped to their chests? They're out in the lobby with their dogs, gossiping.

 

The lobby is just outside our classroom. It's not a secret that the students inside the classroom need help. Every week, the teacher hints that she could use more help. Should she ask? Yes, but I suspect that she feels uncomfortable doing so. She has a difficult time balancing her position as a "teacher" and the parents who are "teachers." She's very careful to not step on any toes pedagogically. She also has observed that when the children act out like this when the mothers ARE in the classroom, the mothers don't intervene or correct behavior, so she has assumed that this type of behavior is OK in the family. (And maybe it is, but it's still classroom inappropriate and distracts from the learning projects at hand.)

 

Here are some things that happen that could use parental help OR a more forceful teacher (which would come with more clear rules from parents):

- kids come into class at 1 p.m. and expect to eat snacks/lunch during the hour long class

- kids refuse to do projects AND interrupt/disturb others who are on task (they should be taken out by parents, but sometimes the parents go shopping, or as I uncharitably consider it, take advantage of free babysitting)

- kids arrive late, interrupting class not with their arrival but by demanding attention/telling stories/showing off belongings

- kids come into class with stuffed animals/dolls/toys

 

There have been several occasions where my children have been the only ones to pick up after class. This frustrates my kids, too. 

 

Are the above behaviors typical for an enrichment class for young homeschooled children? Are my expectations out of line? Should I just let it go?

 

[regentrude]

Are you talking about a *class* or about a *coop*? In a coop, parents are expected to help. If, however, I had my kids take a class, I would expect the teacher to be able to teach the class and handle the students without parental involvement - especially since it is such a small class.

 

- kids come into class at 1 p.m. and expect to eat snacks/lunch during the hour long class

 

The teacher should make it clear that this is class time and not snack time.

 

- kids refuse to do projects AND interrupt/disturb others who are on task

- kids arrive late, interrupting class not with their arrival but by demanding attention/telling stories/showing off belongings

 

Teacher should be able to handle that

 

- kids come into class with stuffed animals/dolls/toys

 

Age appropriate. What's the problem? If this is disruptive, the teacher needs to have a policy.

I see the problem more with your teacher who can not manage her class than with parents who have the (IMO reasonable )expectation that the teacher can handle things.

[IsabelC]

There need to be clear boundaries so that all involved have reasonable expectations. Either the teacher is more of a presenter or facilitator, while each parent or responsible adult is in charge of her/his own children, or the teacher has a full teacher role including discipline, and the parents back her up by not undermining her authority. If the teacher can't, or doesn't want to, manage the children's behavior, it is up to her to clearly set out what she expects by way of parental involvement. 

[FairProspects]

Are the parents paying the teacher or is it through the public school district? In either of these scenarios, I would definitely not expect to have to pitch in and help other than the odd moment here or there or illness. For a these types of classes, I expect the teacher to do their job and plan accordingly in terms of classroom management and procedures. That is why they get the big bucks. :)

[Garga]

If the teacher wants help, she needs to ask for it and then give specific jobs to her helpers. Hinting for help is silly from grown people. Be mature enough to ask.

 

If I sign up the kids for a class, even at the co-op, I expect that the teacher has it under control. When I teach a class, I have it under control. In the classes I've taught (preschool classes and classes up to age 12) I did not expect the parents to do anything in the class, unless they are my helpers have been assigned to me ahead of time.

 

You said the kids will act up in class and even when the parents see it, they do nothing. I can understand this. The parent may be trying to figure out whether it's better to further interrupt the class to correct their child, or allow the teacher to handle it. I usually expect that the teacher will handle it and that if I jump in I'm disrupting the flow even more. I let things go, figuring the teacher will do something if they want the behavior to change.

 

All the issues above (eating during class, arriving late and then expecting attention, refusing to do projects, bringing toys) are completely normal for small children. The teacher's job is to warmly welcome each child, give them a moment of attention, and then redirect them.

 

Those are tough ages to teach. I taught the preschool class at church for 7 years. But if the parents aren't specifically asked to help and then told exactly how to help, I can see where they wouldn't help.

 

If the teacher wants help, she needs to ask and assign tasks. "I need help keeping the kids on task. Mary, will you please sit at this table and help redirect the kids if they get distracted? And Sue, will you sit at this other table with the kids? And Josie, will you help me pass out supplies? Thanks guys!"

[fdrinca]

Thanks for helping me orient my thinking on this issue. I realize that I need to place more - for lack of a better word - blame on the teacher for not handling the class appropriately. I do like her, but I can see that she's not well equipped to handle this class. It's a very confusing mix of parent-participation/teacher-led instruction. The program is in transition now, and it's not clear what it's supposed to be, or where it's headed. The uncertainty shows in the quality of classes. 

 

Two of the families are very much of the limited rules/punishment philosophy. I don't know them very well, but either they don't enforce many rules in general or don't feel comfortable reprimanding/redirecting/removing their children in front of others. That complicates the situation for the teacher, who sees parents laughing at their child's antics while others are distracted or projects are ruined.

 

I do think that most of the above actions are ones I wouldn't allow my children do in a classroom setting. They can go for an hour without a snack, especially right after lunch. They don't need to bring toys to class. They can participate, or quietly abstain. I think that when we're signing up for a classroom experience, there are standards of behavior which enable everyone in the classroom to get the most out of it. 

 

 

[swellmomma]

So this is a class of 4-6 year olds? First off it is up to the teacher to be specific about any help needed not merely hint at it.  As a parent I would expect a teacher to handle a 1 hour class for that age group.  Small children bring a small toy or stuffy to a new environment often,. heck I have school agers that bring a small toy or stuffed animal to school/afterschool care still.  Small children needing a snack during that hour is common as is the disruptiveness.  Actually a 1pm class for small children is the worst time, at that age many of them need quiet time if not a full out nap not a class.  Tired kids have a harder time participating, though it is perfectly age appropriate for small children to interrupt etc.  Based on what you are listing I am finding your expectations to be unrealistic of these children.  Concerns about the amount of help the teacher gets/needs should be addressed with the teacher and you could let you know that it is not stepping on toes to ask the parents to help out.  If she chooses as the teacher not to do that you need to decide if this class is for you.  The moms are not being slackers when the teacher is not asking for help.

[kiwik]

It sounds like a little more clarity would help all. Is it just this teacher or is it a widespread problem?

[MistyMountain]

A teacher should be able to handle 8 children and maintain control without every parent participating which I actually think makes it harder to maintain control with too many parents there. I would not expect a parent to be actively participating in a class especially every week. If volunteers were that necessary then it could be done on a rotating basis with one at a time. It would need to be brought up directly not by dropping hints. I wouldn't blame these homeschooling parents who are with their kids all the time and who do teach them to be in the hall talking to each other and not all over the kids who are in a class. The teacher needs to set clear boundaries such as no snacks in the classroom and on the expectations for behavior. If the youngest kids in the class are not doing well then maybe it isn't a great class for kids that age and the age should be bumped. Maybe it is too much sitting and not enough active time for the age group.

[Pawz4me]

A teacher should be able to handle 8 children and maintain control without every parent participating which I actually think makes it harder to maintain control with too many parents there. I would not expect a parent to be actively participating in a class especially every week. If volunteers were that necessary then it could be done on a rotating basis with one at a time. It would need to be brought up directly not by dropping hints. I wouldn't blame these homeschooling parents who are with their kids all the time and who do teach them to be in the hall talking to each other and not all over the kids who are in a class. The teacher needs to set clear boundaries such as no snacks in the classroom and on the expectations for behavior. If the youngest kids in the class are not doing well then maybe it isn't a great class for kids that age and the age should be bumped. Maybe it is too much sitting and not enough active time for the age group.

 

Agreeing with the bolded.  I've had numerous public kindergarten and elementary school teachers tell me that many kids' behavior is much worse when the parent is present.

[swellmomma]

Agreeing with the bolded.  I've had numerous public kindergarten and elementary school teachers tell me that many kids' behavior is much worse when the parent is present.

 

This is true in my experience with both my own kids and the kids I care for daily.  When a parent is present kids suddenly have 2 very different people as the adults in charge of them.  They will test the limits and boundaries to see which one is ultimately in charge and it results in kids acting up more.  The problem comes in when the teacher leaves discipline then up to the parents to avoid stepping on toes and the parent leaves it up to the teacher because it is their classroom.  Like with parents kids need to see a united front with the parent and teacher or the behaviour never resolves.  It is hard to build that with only a once a week hour long class but is fully possible.

 

For example, in my center when a parent comes the child may refuse to do as told to clean up the toys they were playing with and get ready to go.  Some may get angry and be mouthy to parent etc.  How it is handled in my room is parents back me up when I state the child needs to help clean up the mess. Parent and I will often help the child if it is a big mess but there is no getting out of it.  By same token a child refusing to get ready will hear me tell them "we do as our mother/father tells us" or if they are being mouthy I will speak up and say "we do not disrespect our parents by talking like that" and generally will remind the child they need to apologize to parent.  I have yet to have a parent feel their toes were stepped on.  Kids know the behaviour expectations in my room but at the same time they will test them when 2 authority figures are present.  Aside from the occasional test now all the kids know the parents and I are a united front when it comes to behaviour expectation and it has improved greatly.

 

The teacher can and should very much enforce the rules of her classroom.  BUt it sounds like she is young and inexperienced so there will be some growing pains as she learns this.  We have women fresh out of college starting with us and they always have this unsure footing of that balance between rules of the room, parental interactions etc.  For me it is easy to say this is the way it is period, and to interject to correct a child when the parent is there etc BUT I have 25 years in this field of experience backing me up kwim.  OP I really recommend talking to the teacher, don't give her a litany of grievances, instead ask how you can help her develop/enforce class rules/expectations.  If she is uncertain then you can give ideas, like suggesting no snacks during class next semester (I state next semester because this has been the status quo all along for this class, to suddenly change it based on the complaint of 1 parent comes across as arbitrary and gives the impression parents get to set the rules; by making it a rule presented on the first day of next class shows a growth in the teacher and can be enforced from day 1) Same with things like parents helping out etc.  Status quo is in place for this year, and really how many weeks are left for the year 5-7 or so? But for next term she can have in place a volunteer roster or something else to ensure parents are helping in ways she wants/needs.

[AuntPol]

I think she needs to spell out the rules that she wants -no food or toys. I personally don't think the behaviors are atypical for the age group. You cannot expect kids that are 4-6 to know how to behave in a classroom setting yet.

 

If it were teens, it would a different story. Yet, I have still had to teach teens that we don't come in and disrupt the class, eat food, etc. and that is in both the homeschool and public school classes I teach (in some cases they know what is appropriate but they are testing their boundaries and sometimes they have no clue because they have never had boundaries)

[kirstenhill]

I agree that rules need to be stated up front.  I teach a class at our co-op that has had 8-9 students the past couple years.  The kids are 1st - 3rd grade...so a bit older.  One parent helper is nice (sometimes students do need help with cutting/pasting if the activity is complicated, and it's nice to have someone else to help with behavior problems so I don't have to interrupt my lesson), but i could manage without it I think.   Maybe the teacher is okay with the kids eating in class or bringing toys?  Or she isn't too concerned with the behavior you find disruptive? I can't imagine if I had kids in my class that were really behaving badly that I wouldn't at least discuss it with the parents.

 

Is there a policy as to parents staying on site during classes?  If I sign my kids up for a class that I am paying for at a non-co-op setting though, you better believe that I am going to leave if it is permitted.  If some/one of my kids is in a class, for me that always means i have one or more younger kids to entertain, and usually that is easier done not in the hallway outside a class.  If you are paying for the class, then it isn't "free babysitting" -- or is this somehow not a class you have to pay for? I guess I don't understand what a home-study charter school is -- is it actually a free class paid for by a school?   Other than a co-op (where it seems like it would be expected for parents to help/be involved) most other kinds of classes part of what you are paying for is the instructor being in charge of your kids for that amount of time -- I don't expect my kids gymnastics or tae kwon do instructors/coaches to need my help -- I expect I am paying the club/studio to have enough staffing to cover whatever the needs are in the class I am paying tuition for, and to tell my kids (or me if necessary) what rules should be followed.

[momacacia]

I've been thinking about teaching and discipline lately, in just such a classroom situation as this. I think it would be optimal to consider a teacher and a disciplining/structure parent assistant. Rules and expectations would be clearly laid out at the beginning of the whole session and children briefly reminded of them (especially at this age) before each class. The teacher (as the main authority in the classroom) would at the beginning of the session explain to parents and students that Parent Ms. Schnikel has been assigned the role of Classroom Structure Coordinator (or some such important-sounding title other than "disciplinarian" ;-). Ms. Teacher will focus on teaching the class, undistracted by bad behavior, while Ms. Schnikel will dispense structure, rules, guidelines, expectations, and snack-bag-putting-away. Each week, on an assigned rotation, Parent will assist Teacher (not Ms. Schnikel) with hands-on projects, supplies, etc. Parent will not interfere with Teacher or Ms. Schnikel.

 

Don't get me wrong. I do not want Ms. Schnikel's job. But if she is for hire, I'd love for her to stop by my place. ;)

[fdrinca]

Our charter school used to be much more parent-led - co-op with external funding. The program is transitioning to a more formal teacher-led model, although it's not entirely clear what that will look like, since we're constantly reminded that "parents are partners in teaching, in the classroom and at home." 

 

We have a few other classes that are fabulous, run by experienced teachers who classroom manage with grace and enforce rules. I'm realizing as I think through the situation that it's really poor skills on the teacher's part. I'm just cranky (thus the "vent" post title) because I'd love to sit with my dog and drink coffee, too, but my little guy is really intent on being with his older siblings and "doing class."

 

(Oh, and the dogs - we live in a part of CA where dogs are everywhere. I've never seen so many pet dogs in restaurants, supermarkets, Target...it's insane, probably not at all legal.)

 

For many of the students, this is the first classroom experience AND the first experience away from parents, so for the first semester the parents would remain in the classroom. That's where the confusion over teacher's role in discipline first entered.

 

Thanks for your feedback. It's really helped me clear my thinking on this issue.

 

[duckens]

 

Sparkly Unicorn says:

 

My point being that people need to spell these things out.  I don't know what to do if someone does not tell me what they want me to do.

 

It's probably too late for this class, but the next round of class(es), the parents/children may need to sign a contract.

 

Last year (when dd was 6), she needed to sign a contract to be able to attend Engineering Camp.  (The contract came in all of the standard release papers that parents sign for the activity).  If any piece of paperwork was missing at the beginning of class the first day, she would not be allowed to participate.

 

The contract included things like not interrupting, not being disruptive of others, not running off, and helping to clean up.  Being specific is key here: no food, respect for others, helping to clean up AT LEAST one's own mess.

 

If there is a sign-up sheet for parents to help, that needs to be available to catch parents the first day of class.  Have parents sign their name and phone number, so if someone needs to switch days later, they can reach people to trade.  Make copies of the sign-up sheet for everyone to have a copy by the beginning of the second class.

[elegantlion]

When we did classes, I would be the parent standing in the hall. 1. If I'm paying a teacher, I respect her authority and stay out of her way unless asked. 2. I have one child, part of the reason for classes is for him to be under someone else's authority and get me out of the picture, 3. honestly, I have one child for many reasons, large groups of small children are too much for me (the running joke at my last church was I would help out anywhere but children's ministry) - not everyone has the patience or ability to work with a group of younger children. 4. Unless specifically asked, when ds is in a class I'm doing my socializing. 

 

I do really well with clear expectations set up front. I do well with correcting behavior I know about even if I'm not present when it happens. I don't do well with "management" changes mid-stream especially if it's something that only happens periodically - like a class. I don't read hints about teacher frustration well, I assume everyone is busy and frustrated.  :lol:

 

sounds like there should be some definition as the transition happens. Flyers are good, something I can read at my leisure and provide a contact in case I have questions. 

[freesia]

If the teacher is being paid and no one has told the parents that they need to stay,then they are doing nothing wrong to leave. My ds attended a once a week program for homeschooled kids at a ps and I never stayed.

 

I taught grades 1 and 2 for a decade and all the kids brought Beanie Babies to school most of those years.

 

I find it very distracting to have parents stay in the class when I teach. One parent is a help. More than 1 tend to get bored and start talking. In fact, while our co-op has a 2 deep teaching policy that I agree with in principal, I dislike in practice.

[kiwik]

Sorry, I'm hung up on the fact that the dogs are in the building :laugh

We had someone bring a puppy to church today. It was very cute but a bit distracting.