OneStepAtATime Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Well, DS started VT today. He was a real trouper and I just felt I had to share how proud I was of him. It was obvious when he was working with his left eye that it is definitely where the problem lies, and he was struggling at times, and got a headache, but he wanted to keep going until he finished the work he had been assigned for the day by the Optometrist. He even went to karate afterwards, headachy and exhausted and all, with a smile on his face and determination in his heart. Yeah! Hope everyone is doing well. Best wishes! Edited to add, for anyone who has gone through VT with a child, any suggestions for helping with the headaches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Awe! What a good guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Good for him!!!!!! This sounds very promising!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 They suggested to dd that she take pain reliever ahead of time, so it was already in her system. She had reading glasses at the time, so she'd put those on to relax her eyes afterward. Also, do things that are far vision rather than near, so play wii, go on a field trip, nap, whatever. Glad it's going well and that he's buying in! That will help! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 My daughter is in VT and still gets headaches and is exhausted with near work. When she is getting like this I often let her watch a movie. I stay away from ipad/computer/near play when her head hurts since it just tends to make it worse. She is improving but has a long way to go. I also have two boys that recently started VT - they don't get headaches, but you can tell it wears out their bodies. I have vision issues can it wears me out to just patch and do eye stretches, etc. and I've been going to bed hours earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Having now seen some of what they are doing with DS, I wonder if VT would help me? I see 2 distinct images and two ghost images slightly up and to one side from the primary images. Normal eye doctors don't seem to have a clue but glasses do help SOME with moving the images back together. Once I get tired, though, really tough to see if the print is small or it involved lines that are close together because there are too many, too close together, for me to determine what the original image is. Usually, though I can tell, it just gets annoying. I guess I will ask DS's Optometrist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 You wouldn't be the first, lol. Just go ahead and do the homework with them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I got new glasses along with my kids. When I got home, I was very surprised to find out that I could read better with my teenagers microprism glasses compared to my bifocals. I talked to the doc again and he ended up reexamining my eyes and adding microprisms to my glasses (at his charge). I've been patching and doing the kids homework. I've talked to the therapists and they say that while some parents will start formal VT, it sounds like I can make a lot of progress following along with my kids. I'd talk to your doctor - if you can understand what is going on, you are going to be able to better address it either on your own alongside your kids or more formally with therapy. My main problem is that I'm suppressing an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 You wouldn't be the first, lol. Just go ahead and do the homework with them. :) I got new glasses along with my kids. When I got home, I was very surprised to find out that I could read better with my teenagers microprism glasses compared to my bifocals. I talked to the doc again and he ended up reexamining my eyes and adding microprisms to my glasses (at his charge). I've been patching and doing the kids homework. I've talked to the therapists and they say that while some parents will start formal VT, it sounds like I can make a lot of progress following along with my kids. I'd talk to your doctor - if you can understand what is going on, you are going to be able to better address it either on your own alongside your kids or more formally with therapy. My main problem is that I'm suppressing an eye. Thanks for the feedback ladies. Honestly, it is annoying but usually I function pretty well. I don't even think about it, I just compensate. However, I got a couple of problems wrong in the Key to Fractions workbook because I couldn't tell that there were two different types of stripey lines to indicate various fractions. The lines were too close together for me to tell them apart. Irritated me. :) And driving down the alley the other day when my eyes were tired and I thought there were dozens and dozens of birds flying at my car...turned out it was 3. UGH! :) Hope everyone is well today. Happy Thursday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Well, DS ended up in tears yesterday, even with pain killers. He did everything anyway, bless his heart, but by the end he was miserable. Today, he got to work but he had to put on his VT glasses and the minute they were on, he screamed. It scared me. He said as soon as they hit his face he had terrible pain in his eye and head. I told him it was probably psychosomatic; his eye doesn't want to work today because it is HARD and his brain remembers the discomfort from previous days so the pain he is feeling is really triggered by memories. Honestly, though, I was really just guessing. I had no idea. Am I telling stories? Or is that a real possibility? Anyway, after I told him that, he soldiered through and kept muttering to his eye "You WILL work today. You can't be lazy today." But in the end his eyes were burning and he was exhausted. And a couple of the exercises he usually does o.k. on he didn't do well on at all. I know we are to expect that. It was just really discouraging for him. He even asked if wearing prism glasses for the rest of his life would be a better option. I feel so bad for him. Anyone else have extreme pain issues as they are STARTING VT for the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Honestly I would call the doctor. Maybe he wants him to keep on. Maybe he can cut back and go a little slower? I don't know. But I would call! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thanks, Lecka. I have no idea if this is normal but everyone keeps talking about how hard it is and how kids get so tired and need pain killers, and I know my eye sight issues can be draining and painful at times, too, so I thought maybe this IS normal and I just missed the memo somehow. I didn't want the doc to think we weren't committed or weren't taking this seriously or that he was a wimp or something, because he isn't. He's trying so hard. But I think I will definitely call. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 So they have him wearing prism glasses while he does his VT? We didn't do prism glasses, so no experience there, but I could imagine dd having that emphatic (ahem) a response, given her sensory state. She usually feels pain VERY keenly. Maybe your ds is similar? The OT described her as low stim, and she's very, very sensitive to things. A light whack from the brother is assault and battery, that kind of thing. And yes, it made her astonishingly hard to work with. Bribery with lego sets didn't help. I fed her marshmallows and chocolate. Yes, you read that right. The mom who eats all organic fed bite after bite of marshmallows and chocolate to get her to do the work. It was awful. Maybe your doc has some ideas. In our case, I think it was sensory underlying the extremity of the reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 No not prism glasses, actually. Sorry. I didn't explain this very well. With some exercises, he does them on a computer where he wears glasses and the glasses don't have a prism, they have a blue lens and a red lens and he looks at the screen and has to see a 3d object among a bunch of red and blue dots and select it with the mouse. It changes location with each page and he has to locate it and select it with the mouse. Results are sent to the Optometrist through the computer and he has several exercises he does like this each day, along with other stuff. The doctor warned me that his eye will NOT want to stay down and focused on the objects and without both eyes working in tandem, the object isn't visible. It will take time to build up the muscle stamina to see the objects consistently to be able to select them without strain. It is interesting to watch him selecting with lightening speed at times, then at other times, he literally cannot see the object right in front of him. It really just disappears off the screen for him. Apparently, that is when the left eye gets tired and tracks up, out of alignment. The prism glasses are just an option if VT doesn't work. The doctor and I would rather not do prism glasses since he does not need vision correction (20/15+ vision in both eyes) so he would only be wearing them for the issue with heterophoria he has in the left eye. If VT can get the left eye functioning with the right eye, at least most of the time, that would be a far better option than wearing the prism glasses for just the upward tracking in the left eye. Does that make sense? Not sure how clear I am. Still on pain killers from the extensive unexpected dental work I had done today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yup, that's going to be rough going. Our therapist explained it that the brain was complaining because it was a new method of seeing. Something about the methods fighting. The headaches were AWFUL for a while. Take a nap afterward or watch a movie or do something else far vision to relax his eyes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yup, that's going to be rough going. Our therapist explained it that the brain was complaining because it was a new method of seeing. Something about the methods fighting. The headaches were AWFUL for a while. Take a nap afterward or watch a movie or do something else far vision to relax his eyes... Great explanation! That makes sense, OhE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'd talk to your doctor, but it is probably headaches from HARD work. I've had to keep in mind that VT is one our primary goals this spring and not to worry about the things we don't get to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'd talk to your doctor, but it is probably headaches from HARD work. I've had to keep in mind that VT is one our primary goals this spring and not to worry about the things we don't get to. Seems so strange to think of looking at a screen and pointing and clicking as hard work, since millions of people do it every day. But it really IS. We are cutting back on a lot, but I guess we could reduce everything even further. DS just gets bored if he doesn't have lots to do. DS has requested that we not do Scratch right now, though, since additional screen time drains him. And we have stopped doing anything with Barton except play games and do minor review on the dry erase or with a practice page once in a while so he won't lose what he already learned. We cut back on math, too, just a little here and there, along with Dynamo Math because he wants to continue with that. I am just reading to him right now for History and somehow we haven't even made it to Science lessons this week Hopefully, we can make up for that when VT is over... During the opening ceremonies for the Olympics we had a globe out to look up the countries, but my eye sight is too fragmented to read the tiny print on our globe with any speed at all, so I just had to make an educated guess as to location on some. DS suggested I start on VT, too. :) ...and I am certainly thinking about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You might as well. It would at least make you very sympathetic. I can guarantee you you won't have any MORE time later than you do now. Things only get more complicated with each year. So if you think you ought to, just take the plunge and do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 It's probably not so much the fact that looking at a screen is hard, but making his eyes work together is hard. If people are looking at something up close, but not using both eyes together then they will either see it blurry (or double) or simply suppress the image from one of the eyes. The brain is amazing in that it can just ignore the confusing input from the second eye. With time suppression is very bad in that the sight in the suppressed eye tends to get worse and worse. With the exercises your son is doing, it sounds like it is forcing him to use his eyes together. Exhausting, hard work when you are not used to doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 It's probably not so much the fact that looking at a screen is hard, but making his eyes work together is hard. If people are looking at something up close, but not using both eyes together then they will either see it blurry (or double) or simply suppress the image from one of the eyes. The brain is amazing in that it can just ignore the confusing input from the second eye. With time suppression is very bad in that the sight in the suppressed eye tends to get worse and worse. With the exercises your son is doing, it sounds like it is forcing him to use his eyes together. Exhausting, hard work when you are not used to doing so. I think that is probably exactly what is happening. I guess his brain just kept working the good eye for data and the left eye had to do less and less. Now, at nearly 10, trying to retroactively get the eyes working together must be a whole lot harder than if we had started this when he was little. We actually took him to this same doctor when he was two because of extreme light sensitivity. He also had coordination issues but we didn't link that to vision. Because he was so young, they did not do any developmental screenings. His eyesight was better than 20/15 even then, which is unusual for a toddler, and the doctor said he saw nothing to indicate the light sensitivity was a sign of a serious underlying issue. He told us to get him sunglasses and he would be fine. Honestly, it made sense at the time. I don't blame the doctor at all. But if I had known about the possibility of heterophoria and other developmental issues, the signs were all there from early on. We just didn't link everything together. If I had done more research, we could have been more aware of this possibility and more proactive in seeking additional information long before nearly 10. At least, thanks to the wonderful people here on the LC board, we did FINALLY get an assessment for his eye issues. VT is painful, but if it can help, it will be so worth it, IMHO. Better late than never, ... Thanks LC posters! :) You all rock! :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That's crap. Our dev. optom. BEGS people to bring in little ones. They'll do infant screenings for free under a year. They checked my ds' developmental vision at newly 3 when he was more or less non-verbal and uncooperative. I know they've done VT on toddlers. Sorry, I must be in a bad mood. Maybe the heterophoria is really hard to catch early, dunno. I'm just saying for developmental vision in general (convergence, etc. etc.) absolutely a good doc could have checked that at 2. Ours screens as part of the regular appt and wouldn't have charged any extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 That's crap. Our dev. optom. BEGS people to bring in little ones. They'll do infant screenings for free under a year. They checked my ds' developmental vision at newly 3 when he was more or less non-verbal and uncooperative. I know they've done VT on toddlers. Sorry, I must be in a bad mood. Maybe the heterophoria is really hard to catch early, dunno. I'm just saying for developmental vision in general (convergence, etc. etc.) absolutely a good doc could have checked that at 2. Well, you are probably right about that. But down here, the quality of the medical care is questionable at best. There are a few gems (like the infectious disease doctor that saved my life after a botched cancer surgery), but mostly the quality is...not the best. In the doctor's defense, DS was actually wowing him at every turn with the 2 year old visit. He was incredibly verbal, very cooperative, had fantastic eye sight and we did not indicate there were any other issues besides the light sensitivity. Although he was not as coordinated as his sister, his sister has AMAZING coordination, so at age 2 we thought he was just a normal kid, and his sister was just way above average in terms of gross and fine motor skills. As the years progressed, it became more apparent that he did have issues, but we just didn't link anything together and neither did our pediatrician. The eye doctor didn't see DS again until just a few weeks ago so he had no reason to follow up his initial assessment at the age of 2 with additional screenings. Although the VT doc we are going to probably isn't the best, he is the only one around that I have found that actually DOES do some sort of developmental screening and therapy. And when we went in this year, he did tell me that he starts this particular VT for heterophoria with kids as young as 4. I guess he doesn't do it with youngers, though. Like you said, maybe heterophoria is trickier to diagnose in younger children. Or maybe this type of VT is harder to do with youngers so he was indicating he does something different with younger children. I don't really know. Interesting thought. Anyway, I am hoping what we are doing is enough for now. The 4 hour + commute to another city on a regular basis to get in with someone else seems daunting to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hmm, so he had a gap in exams? I know I went a long time with dd too. Well that's not totally true. She was checked at 5 and the doc saw issues but blew them off. I had her rechecked at 10 and that doc saw stuff and blew it off. Then we went to the developmental optometrist and found it. So yeah, the gap is rough. Nothing to do about it, but it's at least cautionary to other people about the value of cover your butt eye checks. It seems like people just kinda thing we're shooting the wind or hyper-whatever or something for saying to get kids eyes checked, but it just seems reasonable to me, having the hind site now that docs CAN find stuff and that you don't go simply because you realize you need glasses. I'm really glad you're able to get the level of care you are now! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hmm, so he had a gap in exams? I know I went a long time with dd too. Well that's not totally true. She was checked at 5 and the doc saw issues but blew them off. I had her rechecked at 10 and that doc saw stuff and blew it off. Then we went to the developmental optometrist and found it. So yeah, the gap is rough. Nothing to do about it, but it's at least cautionary to other people about the value of cover your butt eye checks. It seems like people just kinda thing we're shooting the wind or hyper-whatever or something for saying to get kids eyes checked, but it just seems reasonable to me, having the hind site now that docs CAN find stuff and that you don't go simply because you realize you need glasses. I'm really glad you're able to get the level of care you are now! :) Well, he had normal vision screenings with his pediatrician every year, but his vision exams showed he had excellent vision (20/20 or better) so the pediatrician didn't recommend further evaluations. They didn't do anything to check for developmental eye issues, but we didn't know to ask and DS was doing great at school. We didn't realize how much he was having to compensate since he is such a good self-advocate and usually proactive in finding ways to adapt his learning. Evaluations of any kind really just aren't done much around here unless something is severe, so evaluations are generally never discussed. In fact, until I got on this board, I had never heard of developmental eye issues or VT. Edited to say I did know that there was some sort of physical therapy that could possibly be used for vision improvement because my brother had a lot of weird vision issues that have affected him all his life. When he was a child a doctor attempted to help him (unsuccessfully) with what would now probably be called VT, but those issues were attributed to a drug Mom was given for extreme nausea while she was pregnant with him. There was neurological damage. It is not the same issues or therapy that we are talking about here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hmm, it didn't occur to me someone who think the ped eye screening was worth much. Ours did one last time I took ds in, or actually they wanted to and I told them don't bother because he gets a full check every year. I was sort of flabbergasted, because that would be worth about as much as our school checks were growing up. (And we all know we had dev. vision issues that went undetected, astigmatism uncaught, etc.) Don't know, hadn't thought through the ped thing and how people would view that. I didn't take dd much, just once when she was a baby and then a few years ago. I've scheduled her for another check, just because I like this ped I take ds to and thought getting them under one roof would be nice. He's a decent fellow, easy to talk to, not rushing or dismissive, very respectful. The check our optometrist does is a full hour though, so there's just no way in the world what the ped is doing compares to that. They do it in a separate pediatric office where they really slow down and take time with the kids. Their main office is more rushed, with coffee dispensers and urban speed of life, so I appreciate how they slow down in the pediatric office and really take the time to find out what quirks are going on with the kids and dig in and make sure they aren't missing anything. So I wouldn't fault yourself or anything, since it's sort of like the ped implies his screening is catching stuff, which of course it is meant to do. I guess after you get burnt with one kid and know the genes are there, you get more aggressive about checking it with the rest, lol. And you know, if I had been taking my kid to the ped all those years maybe he would have caught something earlier? Dunno. This guy is pretty new, so we had already done our evals by the time we found him. That's just to say we all sorta have those "Dang, if I had done this or that maybe it would have been caught!" sort of realizations or wonderings. I just move on, because they still might not have. The weird stuff is less common and easy to miss. Sometimes they only catch it because we complain, and we don't complain until it's really bad and the kid can't compensate anymore. They're bright, so they compensate a long time, meaning it takes longer to catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hmm, it didn't occur to me someone who think the ped eye screening was worth much. Ours did one last time I took ds in, or actually they wanted to and I told them don't bother because he gets a full check every year. I was sort of flabbergasted, because that would be worth about as much as our school checks were growing up. (And we all know we had dev. vision issues that went undetected, astigmatism uncaught, etc.) Don't know, hadn't thought through the ped thing and how people would view that. I didn't take dd much, just once when she was a baby and then a few years ago. I've scheduled her for another check, just because I like this ped I take ds to and thought getting them under one roof would be nice. He's a decent fellow, easy to talk to, not rushing or dismissive, very respectful. The check our optometrist does is a full hour though, so there's just no way in the world what the ped is doing compares to that. They do it in a separate pediatric office where they really slow down and take time with the kids. Their main office is more rushed, with coffee dispensers and urban speed of life, so I appreciate how they slow down in the pediatric office and really take the time to find out what quirks are going on with the kids and dig in and make sure they aren't missing anything. So I wouldn't fault yourself or anything, since it's sort of like the ped implies his screening is catching stuff, which of course it is meant to do. I guess after you get burnt with one kid and know the genes are there, you get more aggressive about checking it with the rest, lol. And you know, if I had been taking my kid to the ped all those years maybe he would have caught something earlier? Dunno. This guy is pretty new, so we had already done our evals by the time we found him. That's just to say we all sorta have those "Dang, if I had done this or that maybe it would have been caught!" sort of realizations or wonderings. I just move on, because they still might not have. The weird stuff is less common and easy to miss. Sometimes they only catch it because we complain, and we don't complain until it's really bad and the kid can't compensate anymore. They're bright, so they compensate a long time, meaning it takes longer to catch. Wow, that's really interesting. Down here, you have to get a physical from your pediatrician every year to attend school so the kids went every year to the pediatrician and had blood work, physical including eye exam and hearing test, etc. That is considered the norm. If there are issues, the pediatrician sends you to a specialist. I don't know of anyone who takes their kids for yearly eye exams through an optometrist or ophthalmologist unless there are issues or a history of problems with vision within the family. The pediatrician never recommended going to an optometrist (she didn't seem to think much of them), but when DD started having trouble reading she sent her to an ophthalmologist who also said eyes are fine, no such thing as dyslexia, no such thing as unusual vision issues. Vision is vision, etc. Honestly, the doctors AND other parents were making me feel like I was overprotective and a hovering paranoid parent. Even DH kind of felt like I was just paranoid. His take, at first, was that DD just needed to work harder (DS was still little hand't yet shown any real struggles with school so our focus for quite a while was on DD). So we didn't pursue anything in more detail for quite a while for either child. DD was the one having the most outwardly apparent struggles, but when DS hit a wall in 2nd, we were scrambling. It took months to get evaluations outside the school for just the dyslexia through a CALT specialist. We didn't even know to seek evals of a more comprehensive variety, like through a np or audiologist or Developmental Optometrist. The first time I heard anyone mention those things was on this board just this past year. I was so ignorant for years...and so were all the people advising me, including the people in the medical profession. Ugh! Once I really started questioning things, it was hard to find anyone around here that would support me. Honestly, if it weren't for this board, I am uncertain where we would be right now. I have learned so much in the past year just poking around here. It has given me new avenues to pursue and better questions to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 You wrote that when he was two, the doctor identified extreme light sensitivity. Which is termed as scotopic sensitivity. Where it is important to understand how this effects vision? If you stop and look at a word on this page, your eyes don't actually stay still? They actually make of pattern of movements around the word, with 5 movements a second. Going left, right, middle, up,down. Taking a snapshot with each movement, which are combined to form a whole image of a word on the back of the eye. It takes about a tenth of a second to make each movement. But a crucial factor, is that during this tenth of a second movement? The last image needs to removed/ disappeared, so that the next snapshot can be taken. Though the problem with extreme light sensitivity, is that it takes longer than a tenth of a second for last image to disappear? So that a trace of the last image, or images remain, as the new one is formed. (To appreciate this 'trace image'? Perhaps you could very briefly look at a light globe and look away? Where you will see a trace of the light globe, for perhaps perhaps up to a second.) But I was particularly interested where you wrote you: ' see 2 distinct images and two ghost images slightly up and to one side from the primary images.' Where if you look at this in terms of a slow disappearance of previous images? With the last one still distinct, and the previous 2 still ghosting away? This describes an extreme light sensitivity. Though this extreme sensitivity, effects the 'cones' at the back of the eyes, where their are different ones for red, blue and green. Where each of them have their own level of sensitivity. So that with extreme sensitivity, they aren't equally effected. But rather their is an imbalance, where the blue cones are the more common ones effected. But white light as reflected from white paper is a major problem. Basically because white light is formed by a combination of red, green, blue light. Where correcting this, involves identifying the problematic color/s and using tinted glasses that filter out the problematic color/s. Yet a simple test of this, is opening a page of text in Word. Then changing the background to the text, through the spectrum of different color tints? Where if sensitivity is a problem? Then with certain background color tints, the ghosting will disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 You wrote that when he was two, the doctor identified extreme light sensitivity. Which is termed as scotopic sensitivity. Where it is important to understand how this effects vision? If you stop and look at a word on this page, your eyes don't actually stay still? They actually make of pattern of movements around the word, with 5 movements a second. Going left, right, middle, up,down. Taking a snapshot with each movement, which are combined to form a whole image of a word on the back of the eye. It takes about a tenth of a second to make each movement. But a crucial factor, is that during this tenth of a second movement? The last image needs to removed/ disappeared, so that the next snapshot can be taken. Though the problem with extreme light sensitivity, is that it takes longer than a tenth of a second for last image to disappear? So that a trace of the last image, or images remain, as the new one is formed. (To appreciate this 'trace image'? Perhaps you could very briefly look at a light globe and look away? Where you will see a trace of the light globe, for perhaps perhaps up to a second.) But I was particularly interested where you wrote you: ' see 2 distinct images and two ghost images slightly up and to one side from the primary images.' Where if you look at this in terms of a slow disappearance of previous images? With the last one still distinct, and the previous 2 still ghosting away? This describes an extreme light sensitivity. Though this extreme sensitivity, effects the 'cones' at the back of the eyes, where their are different ones for red, blue and green. Where each of them have their own level of sensitivity. So that with extreme sensitivity, they aren't equally effected. But rather their is an imbalance, where the blue cones are the more common ones effected. But white light as reflected from white paper is a major problem. Basically because white light is formed by a combination of red, green, blue light. Where correcting this, involves identifying the problematic color/s and using tinted glasses that filter out the problematic color/s. Yet a simple test of this, is opening a page of text in Word. Then changing the background to the text, through the spectrum of different color tints? Where if sensitivity is a problem? Then with certain background color tints, the ghosting will disappear. Hmmm...going to have to reread this tomorrow morning, when my eyes aren't so tired. Lots of interesting stuff here. So you think the ghosting I see is similar to DS having light sensitivity? Maybe I am misunderstanding. I do know I have less eyestrain if it is white print on a black background, or I use the e-paper available with some Kindles Instead of backlit text but I don't know if that eliminates the ghosting. I honestly am not conscious of the ghosting and double images much of the time. My brain just kind of compensates. I do get headaches and my eyes feel tired a lot, though. But when I am tired, the bigger issue is the double images with off set ghosting becomes more pronounced and makes it harder for me to distinguish the original image. In fact, I think more fragmentation is beginning to occur. It seems there may be another image beginning to form. For the longest I just thought everything I saw was blurry. Once the fragmenting completely separated the two distinct images it became clear that the images themselves are not that out of focus. There are just too many. In fact, if the ghosting would go away, I think the double images, since they are separate now, wouldn't be as much of an issue. Anyway, let me think about this and I will respond more tomorrow. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Having now seen some of what they are doing with DS, I wonder if VT would help me? I see 2 distinct images and two ghost images slightly up and to one side from the primary images. Normal eye doctors don't seem to have a clue but glasses do help SOME with moving the images back together. Once I get tired, though, really tough to see if the print is small or it involved lines that are close together because there are too many, too close together, for me to determine what the original image is. Usually, though I can tell, it just gets annoying. I guess I will ask DS's Optometrist. I haven't been catching up with this thread. This just brought to mind a vision issue that my dh had following brain surgery, which sounded a little similar to this - some double vision up and to one side. (He had a rare type of benign tumor in the CP angle and apparently there was some small impact on the optic nerve when it was removed.) He did a little bit of VT which helped a bit. It got much better over time though there is still a smitch of a lingering issue. Not that this helps. It just reminded me. I was amazed about all the cranial nerve stuff. Your ghost images are different though? Not the same images as the main ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 I haven't been catching up with this thread. This just brought to mind a vision issue that my dh had following brain surgery, which sounded a little similar to this - some double vision up and to one side. (He had a rare type of benign tumor in the CP angle and apparently there was some small impact on the optic nerve when it was removed.) He did a little bit of VT which helped a bit. It got much better over time though there is still a smitch of a lingering issue. Not that this helps. It just reminded me. I was amazed about all the cranial nerve stuff. Your ghost images are different though? Not the same images as the main ones? Interesting about your DH. So he had a main image and another clear image but slightly up and to one side? Well, for me, there are two primary images (the same image, just twice) side by side along the same horizontal plane, not completely separated, but mostly separated. Plus that same image again, but not as clear, like a ghost image, and not very separated from the main image but slightly above and to the right of the main images (almost like a drop shadow but above instead of below). In other words, if I was looking at the letter k, I would actually see the letter k twice, side by side, sort of overlapping but mainly separated. Then each of those k's have a faint ghost image matching the original image, but located slightly higher up and to the right. With glasses, the images are closer together, and I do really well, but as my eyes fatigue, they tend to separate more even with the glasses. While typing this, because my eyes are tired, there are a lot of images. It isn't a problem for larger images, usually. When it gets tricky is when I am looking at small print or lines that are close together. I have a hard time separating out what the original image was. Does that make sense? Without glasses, even thought the images are not very blurry, because I see so many, I cannot read anything past the 3rd line on the eye chart with my right eye (although even that is a bit of a strain). I do a bit better with my left. The ghost images I know aren't real and my brain tends to just ignore them. In fact, I frequently am not conscious they are there. I filter them out. If they weren't there at all, though, I think my headaches and feeling of eye fatigue wouldn't be so bad. I think my brain has to work pretty hard to filter. The second clear image can become a bigger problem if my eyes are fatigued. Sometimes, when my eyes tire out, and there are multiple images of the same thing, I cannot always determine how many real objects there are and how many are just image copies. Like when I was driving down the alley, as I mentioned up thread I think, and my eyes were tired. I had to take my glasses off for a minute and when I looked up, I thought a huge flock of birds was flying down the alley. It was only 3, but the fragmenting was pretty bad in that moment. And I really couldn't tell how many there were. I never drive at night because even with glasses, the lights make it virtually impossible for me to tell how many cars there are in front of or behind me. During the day, with glasses on, I am fine. But I do worry that there may come a time when I will no longer legally be allowed to drive since this issue seems to get worse over time. My dad apparently had the same vision issues as I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 OneStep, I would think you're dealing with a mixture of convergence and the ghosting geodob was describing. You really ought to take a visit to a GOOD, super good, far away if necessary, dev. optom. and see what they can do for you. They might have some tricks you aren't aware of, like something to put into a scrip (lenses). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 OneStep, I would think you're dealing with a mixture of convergence and the ghosting geodob was describing. You really ought to take a visit to a GOOD, super good, far away if necessary, dev. optom. and see what they can do for you. They might have some tricks you aren't aware of, like something to put into a scrip (lenses). Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly! So tired of bad eyesight. I am hoping to tackle that this summer when we may be staying in one of the bigger cities in our state for a few weeks. I was trying to read the medicine label on the cat's medicine bottle last night and just couldn't, even with a magnifying glass. Too many images and my eyes were tired. I like typing because I can enlarge the font for typing then shrink it for sending. I also like typing because I have been typing so long that I know what I am typing even when I can't read it that well. And I can type pretty fast. But if I have to fill in little boxes by hand I sometimes have trouble lining up the letters in the correct box. Really annoying. Interesting about the various things that may be going on at the same time. I appreciate the input since it gives me better questions to ask. No eye doctor has ever explored any of that with me except my last one (the one my DS is now doing VT with). At my last appointment for glasses he looked really puzzled and told me what I was saying was taking him in two different directions (flipping lenses to see which one makes the image clearer). When I described what I was seeing in more detail, he did a much more thorough eval with equipment I had not seen before, and the prescription IS better, but he admitted he couldn't guarantee the glasses would fix all of my issues. He did not mention any of the things I usually see mentioned here on the LC board and he did not recommend any VT. I do need to see a better doctor. DS probably does too. Hopefully, this summer... In the meantime, at least he didn't look at me like I was stupid or crazy or annoying and has taken everything I have said about my vision and DSs seriously...I am really grateful for that. It will be really interesting to see how his VT with DS works out in the long run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Not to be dumb, but wasn't geodob hinting that one of the things you need is to use colored filter/lenses? I'm really not up on it, but that seemed to be where the logic was going. That would be an easy thing to change if it's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 Not certain about the easy fix reference, but I appreciate you trying to help me interperet everything that geodob said. I have not had much time to study anything. Really crazy week. Specifically, if you are referring to the colored filters they recommend children use for reading that may have Irlen Syndrome (Scotopic Sensitivity) so far I have not been diagnosed with that. I know that sometimes teachers here will hand children diagnosed with dyslexia those colored filters to read through. Those filters don't help me at all. In fact, they create eye strain. Whether that is what a really good eye doctor would suggest using or if a really good eye doctor would even diagnosed me with this issue, I don't know. I don't think I have ever been to a really good eye doctor.... when Dad was still active military I got sent to whomever was on duty. Out in the civilian world it was just whoever was close. Eye glasses usually worked fine. It wasn't until the past 3-4 years that things have gotten a lot worse (and I finally realized that the blurriness was actually a second image separating from the first). If you were suggesting maybe putting colored lenses in my glasses or over my prescription glasses, I would not know what color would work best since the colored filter sheets don't help me. And with colored lenses in the glasses, I'm not certain how much I want to walk around with a bright blue and bright red lense in my really expensive prescription glasses if the colors I need are the ones DS is using for some of his VT (expensive already because the lens was so hard to create for my funky eyesight). Although if that were truly going to help, I'd do it :) . Thanks for weighing in, by the way. Your support, as always, is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 Oh, and DS did better on Friday. He made it through everything in one sitting, no breaks, his choice. Still painful and frustrating, but he did it. :hurray: And no scream of sudden unexpected pain when he put on the glasses. I do think it was probably a sensitivity issue to sensory input. He is getting used to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yesterday DS got so upset during VT he shouted a curseword at the computer screen. He has never said a curseword in his life that I am aware of. He then screamed at me that he didn't care if he ever learned to read, or that his eyes ever got fixed or that he ever did anything useful in his life. He then screamed that he was never doing VT ever again, and curled up in a ball at the far end of our couch, and kept kicking at the couch, bitter and frustrated and angry. I had no idea what to do. He normally doesn't shout like that or react physically. I felt so sad and alarmed for him, and really worried. He did pretty poorly on two of the exercises and only completed one successfully. I was shocked that he would ramp up to cursing and screaming so quickly (less than 15 minutes into it) but I did understand how hard and painful this is. Instead of yelling, or even attempting to comfort him or cheer him up, I sat at the other end of the couch and said nothing. After a few minutes he asked "Isn't this where you are supposed to try talking me into finishing the VT for today and give me a pep talk on how great this is?" .........."Or at least yell at me for saying a bad word?" I told him no, that I was just as sad and frustrated with the whole thing as he was, but at least I wasn't having headaches like he had to go through. He tried not to smile but finally crawled into my lap and we just sat holding each other for a while. Eventually, he got up, apologized for his behavior and told me he was ready to try again. I was in tears. I was proud of him for wanting to keep going but felt like maybe I was making a huge mistake by keeping at this when he is so miserable.... Today, while I was at a meeting, he started analyzing his environment for where and when he does VT, his attitude and viewpoint, etc. then made some changes, apparently not just physically to the environment (quieter, more isolated, fewer distracting light sources) but also in his own thought processes, trying to pep himself up again like he had felt at the beginning. When I came home he tackled VT with more solid effort. He did well or at least passably at every exercise, for the very first time since we started, and he was muttering under his breath the whole time "I can do this, I can do this." I told him I thought it was a combination of his effort to improve his environment, his effort to change his attitude, and also that there very well may be improvement in how his eyes work together now. We are celebrating with pizza and a movie at his request. I know we will still have hard days, but maybe not as hard as yesterday. One can hope, anyway. Just had to share since I know many of you can relate to roller coastering emotions and doubt (kids and parent). Best wishes to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 That is awesome, kudos to you and him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 That is awesome, kudos to you and him! Thanks soror. I was honestly so worried after yesterday I woke up at 2am and never went back to sleep. (He is having some wheezing issues in karate, too, so it has been a more challenging week). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 My ds super hated the computer work and had daily meltdowns over it. It was very hard for us both but he and I would both agree that it has been the most helpful thing we've done. He still has occasional meltdowns when his eyes don't cooperate. We are saving for more VT. (It was so expensive we couldnt remediate everything before $$$$ ran out.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 My ds super hated the computer work and had daily meltdowns over it. It was very hard for us both but he and I would both agree that it has been the most helpful thing we've done. He still has occasional meltdowns when his eyes don't cooperate. We are saving for more VT. (It was so expensive we couldnt remediate everything before $$$$ ran out.) Hugs on that. Ugh, everything is so expensive... I am really glad to hear that it has helped! Yeah! And at least it is nice to know that others that have done this aren't thinking I am a horrible mother for making him go through this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hoping it just keeps getting better every time. Kudos to you for your great, supportive response to him when he got so upset! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I must express a concern with the VT program? The whole basis of vision therapy, uses an incremental approach. Which pushes one just slightly past their current limit, and then consolidates it. Then extends slightly further. Where some strain is involved, but not excessive. But your sons experience, suggests that it isn't using an incremental approach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 I must express a concern with the VT program? The whole basis of vision therapy, uses an incremental approach. Which pushes one just slightly past their current limit, and then consolidates it. Then extends slightly further. Where some strain is involved, but not excessive. But your sons experience, suggests that it isn't using an incremental approach? Well, I don't really know how to judge how incremental it is. I have never done VT and I had never heard of heterophoria until a few weeks ago. Honestly, I have been second guessing this all along, but so many have said this can be painful and frustrating....I don't know. The doctor warned me that since he was older, this would be harder. His brain just isn't used to trying to make both eyes work together and his eye just isn't used to working this hard to stay in alignment. It is the computer work that gets to DS. He does 4 exercises a day. One is 3 minutes long, two are 7 minutes long and one is 5 minutes long. Each time he does them, there is a bar graph to show accuracy with each eye, as well as the speed of response for the ones where speed is also a factor. He can see his results af the end of each exercise and compare them to the previous day's work. When he completes a particular exercise within the specified parameters, he earns a star. After a certain number of stars are earned, that particular exercise is removed from his list of daily assignments. He completed one (earned enough stars) for it to be removed, but with some he hadn't yet been able to earn even one star, although I could see that the graph showed some improvement over time. On the day that he got so angry, some of the bars had gone down (doc had said that was to be expected at times) and he hadn't earned any stars at all, so I think he felt like a failure. As for scheduling this, he had us move this to mid-morning since that is usually his best time of day. Sometimes he does two then takes a break and does the other two. That seems to work best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 OneStep, our VT was VERY hard for dd, and nothing you're describing seems unreasonable. I think your ds is being particularly unreasonable to assume he'd get such fast progress. This is a process that takes MONTHS and there are skills that are going to be particularly hard and take a long time to come. It's just how it is. Use the midwife trick and tell him to plan on it taking (insert amount at the high end of the doc's estimate or even higher) and be pleasantly surprised when it takes less. This is a game of endurance, not fast changes. And yes, our doc told us what yours is saying, that sometimes the brain is fighting it because it already has its own way and that you're going to have to plow through headaches, brain complaints, etc. Long haul, stick it out. In this day of Nintendo they're used to fast results, and that's not how it's going to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 OneStep, our VT was VERY hard for dd, and nothing you're describing seems unreasonable. I think your ds is being particularly unreasonable to assume he'd get such fast progress. This is a process that takes MONTHS and there are skills that are going to be particularly hard and take a long time to come. It's just how it is. Use the midwife trick and tell him to plan on it taking (insert amount at the high end of the doc's estimate or even higher) and be pleasantly surprised when it takes less. This is a game of endurance, not fast changes. And yes, our doc told us what yours is saying, that sometimes the brain is fighting it because it already has its own way and that you're going to have to plow through headaches, brain complaints, etc. Long haul, stick it out. In this day of Nintendo they're used to fast results, and that's not how it's going to be. Well, he has always held himself to an incredibly high standard. And that was from the time he could talk full sentences. He just expects that if he puts in a lot of hard work he will see results. But after finally seeing a bit of success during the session yesterday, he is in a much better place mentally today and is accepting that this is for the long haul. We had a good talk today and VT went much better from an emotional standpoint. He just did it, no complaining, no anger. Much smoother today. Thank goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You wrote that he has Heterophoria, which had me curious? So I've been reading about it over a few days. Our eyes actually have a 'default position', which they take up at rest. Where this default position, results in a focal point of both eyes. At a point 1 meter in front of this. So that when we close our eyes, they move and focus at this point. Though it isn't precisely at that point, but generally just a degree or two off the point. Which is our eyes default point. When we open our eyes, this 'degree or two off the point', is corrected to a precise point. Using what is called the eyes 'Fusion Reserve', which can make this fine point adjustment. But what can occur, is that the default position of an eye, can be more than a degree or two off point. So that it could be up to 10 degrees off point? This point could be to one side or the other, and also above or below. Which fits with the description of your own vision 'of a ghost image slightly above and to the right of the main images.' While this 'fusion reserve' can make an adjustment of a degree or two. Anymore than this, is beyond its ability. Though to adjust more than two degrees, the eyes can also use what is called 'Fusional Vergence'. But exercises are needed to make effective use of Fusional Vergence, and extend what is termed as its 'Amplitude'? How many degrees of correction it make. So that what the exercises that he is doing are working on, is extending the Fusional Vergence of his left eye. So for example, if his left eye is 5 degrees of centre, then the ability to automatically make this 5 degree correction, needs to be incrementally developed. Degree by degree. Where their is a resistance to this from the eye, to return to its reflex default position. Though a further factor, is that this Fusional Vergence uses a 2 step process, termed as Slow and Fast. Where the Fast one provides an estimation of the correction needed, which helps the Slow one to be more precise. So that exercises are used to develop each of them. But I wonder if the Optometrist defined precisely where his left eye is defaulting to ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 You wrote that he has Heterophoria, which had me curious? So I've been reading about it over a few days. Our eyes actually have a 'default position', which they take up at rest. Where this default position, results in a focal point of both eyes. At a point 1 meter in front of this. So that when we close our eyes, they move and focus at this point. Though it isn't precisely at that point, but generally just a degree or two off the point. Which is our eyes default point. When we open our eyes, this 'degree or two off the point', is corrected to a precise point. Using what is called the eyes 'Fusion Reserve', which can make this fine point adjustment. But what can occur, is that the default position of an eye, can be more than a degree or two off point. So that it could be up to 10 degrees off point? This point could be to one side or the other, and also above or below. Which fits with the description of your own vision 'of a ghost image slightly above and to the right of the main images.' While this 'fusion reserve' can make an adjustment of a degree or two. Anymore than this, is beyond its ability. Though to adjust more than two degrees, the eyes can also use what is called 'Fusional Vergence'. But exercises are needed to make effective use of Fusional Vergence, and extend what is termed as its 'Amplitude'? How many degrees of correction it make. So that what the exercises that he is doing are working on, is extending the Fusional Vergence of his left eye. So for example, if his left eye is 5 degrees of centre, then the ability to automatically make this 5 degree correction, needs to be incrementally developed. Degree by degree. Where their is a resistance to this from the eye, to return to its reflex default position. Though a further factor, is that this Fusional Vergence uses a 2 step process, termed as Slow and Fast. Where the Fast one provides an estimation of the correction needed, which helps the Slow one to be more precise. So that exercises are used to develop each of them. But I wonder if the Optometrist defined precisely where his left eye is defaulting to ? His left eye defaults above where the right eye defaults to but I don't know the precise measurements. The eye doc said that some patients he sees that are as old as DS have an eye that stays in the default position and will no longer really come down into the correct position, which makes it a lot harder to have success with this type of VT. He had a lot of hope that the VT he is trying with DS would help him since he is able to bring both eyes into alignment. It just isn't easy to maintain that position. The exercises do seem to be incremental in nature and he cannot move on to the next set until he has performed at a certain level of success with the current exercises. But I have no way of judging if the steps are incremental enough...things have smoothed out a lot more since our really bad day, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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