I find this horrific

[Kathryn]

Ugh...worst thing was K was put on some special formula (reflux, colic, etc). It cost $10 a day. We spent more on feeding our baby than ourselves.

When the idiot gastroenterologist told me that my first was allergic to "all intact proteins" and I had to stop breastfeeding and put him on prescription formula without giving any thought or attention to my theory of what was going on (which turned out to be right), he neglected to mention the $40 a day price tag. I was FREAKING OUT for the few days it took us to realize that his solution was making things worse.

[mommymilkies]

I have a real problem with restricting the promotion of formula, and I have an even bigger problem with the idea of mandatory breastfeeding classes.

Contrary to what many people here seem to believe, bottle-feeding a baby is not a crime. No one should ever feel pressured to breastfeed their child, just as no one should feel pressured to bottle-feed.

The judgmentalism on this issue is always way over the top on this forum. (I'm not picking on the people I quoted -- I'm speaking generally, not specifically to them, because both of their posts were actually very moderate compared with comments I've read on other similar threads in the past.)

 

I actually see free classes maybe as not required, but certainly pushed to parents as good. I have a cousin who almost killed her son by diluting the formula powder wrong. Yes, he was in the hospital and it was serious. I know several other parents IRL that this happened to. Counseling or classes for whatever method of feeding should really be made widely free and available, if not required.

Uh yeah how many people decided to bottle feed because of a formula commercial they saw or a coupon they got in the mail? That sure the hell didn't factor into my decision.

 

It is very heavily pushed here. I had a mw assisted homebirth with my youngest. Never signed up for babycenter or anything and I still got formula samples in the mail nearly every week. At every doctor appt, they push them on you and tell you "it won't hurt." I was a nipple confusion baby-yes, it can hurt the breastfeeding relationship and the info given in the brochures and samples is wrong, if not offensive.

I don't see how there is any correlation between giving a new mom some formula and "undermining her confidence" in breastfeeding.

I think women deserve a little more credit than that.

If a woman is so incredibly influenced by a few cans of free formula that she decides to stop breastfeeding, I would guess she wasn't too serious about it to begin with.

I have both breastfeed and formula fed my five children. Yes, there are numerous studies and reports on how bad formula advertising is. Look at the WHO's stance, for instance. Being constantly undermined about the importance of bf and being told you are starving your baby since you can't measure input/being a martyr to breastfeeding because you don't own bottles, etc is ridiculous and has influenced women. And I'm not just talking their push to ff over bf. but information on which formula to choose, signs to watch for, and things like the dangers of soy formula for some children.

 

With #1, my circumstances that made me stop bf were necessary. With #2, I was given truly terrible medical advice my a shoddy LC and doctor. This has made me very angry over time, but not at formula feeders, just at the lack of real information out there for women (and thank goodness for the Internet nowadays). We don't even have a LC here. I offered at WIC to volunteer as a peer counselor. I told them I would do it FREE as much as I could because the bf rates here are dismal and I've talked to women expressing a desire for support or advice. They told me no. Everyone told me no. They had no desire to hire a certified LC or allow a volunteer or bf support group. They said that there was no need for one here since nobody almost ever chooses to.

 

I have never once been judged for having switched to formula with my oldest two. But I know people have and I just want to say that it's not because of breastfeeding advocates, but because of jerks. Just like the jerks in my life who told me that breastfeeding was sexual abuse or tried to sneak my kids formula because breastmilk "isn't right." Let's not judge either side because of wackos. Spoiled apples and all.

[Scarlett]

I agree. Let's make it easier to breastfeed and, you know, actually support women.

 

 

 

And there's this, too. I don't think we have to worry about anyone trying to legislate breastfeeding in the U.S.

 

I'm pretty crunchy...extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapers...you know, the usual. However, after two kids, I've had to accept the fact that I will never have the breastmilk supply to keep up with demand. My second has been supplemented with formula. It's only a bottle or two per day, but it devastated me to the point that I'm downright ashamed of it. This is actually my first "confession" of this fact; I've told no one, with the exception of my husband, of course. There's really no reason for me to feel this way--there's no one in my life I would tell that wouldn't be understanding and supportive--but I feel that way all the same. My point in explaining all this is that there is no good reason to push breastfeeding in ways that would just tear women down. There are a lot of great ways to support breastfeeding while empowering women. Taking away choice is never going to be one of those ways.

 

(((Hugs)))

[Slartibartfast]

I actually see free classes maybe as not required, but certainly pushed to parents as good. I have a cousin who almost killed her son by diluting the formula powder wrong. Yes, he was in the hospital and it was serious. I know several other parents IRL that this happened to. Counseling or classes for whatever method of feeding should really be made widely free and available, if not required.

 

 

It is very heavily pushed here. I had a mw assisted homebirth with my youngest. Never signed up for babycenter or anything and I still got formula samples in the mail nearly every week. At every doctor appt, they push them on you and tell you "it won't hurt." I was a nipple confusion baby-yes, it can hurt the breastfeeding relationship and the info given in the brochures and samples is wrong, if not offensive. I have both breastfeed and formula fed my five children. Yes, there are numerous studies and reports on how bad formula advertising is. Look at the WHO's stance, for instance. Being constantly undermined about the importance of bf and being told you are starving your baby since you can't measure input/being a martyr to breastfeeding because you don't own bottles, etc is ridiculous and has influenced women. And I'm not just talking their push to ff over bf. but information on which formula to choose, signs to watch for, and things like the dangers of soy formula for some children.

 

With #1, my circumstances that made me stop bf were necessary. With #2, I was given truly terrible medical advice my a shoddy LC and doctor. This has made me very angry over time, but not at formula feeders, just at the lack of real information out there for women (and thank goodness for the Internet nowadays). We don't even have a LC here. I offered at WIC to volunteer as a peer counselor. I told them I would do it FREE as much as I could because the bf rates here are dismal and I've talked to women expressing a desire for support or advice. They told me no. Everyone told me no. They had no desire to hire a certified LC or allow a volunteer or bf support group. They said that there was no need for one here since nobody almost ever chooses to.

 

I have never once been judged for having switched to formula with my oldest two. But I know people have and I just want to say that it's not because of breastfeeding advocates, but because of jerks. Just like the jerks in my life who told me that breastfeeding was sexual abuse or tried to sneak my kids formula because breastmilk "isn't right." Let's not judge either side because of wackos. Spoiled apples and all.

 

 Every issue has it's zealots. When one ONLY cares about the issue without considering the human behind that issue they will nearly always get it wrong. They usually cause more harm than good. 

 

:(

 

I am sorry people were jerks.

[Slartibartfast]

And for those women on medications that make breastfeeding unsafe, will the classes serve as an opportunity for public shaming, or just a monumental waste of time?

 

You are right, this is one of the many reasons legislating mandatory anything for the moms would be a bad thing. 

[redsquirrel]

I don't see how there is any correlation between giving a new mom some formula and "undermining her confidence" in breastfeeding.

 

I think women deserve a little more credit than that.

 

If a woman is so incredibly influenced by a few cans of free formula that she decides to stop breastfeeding, I would guess she wasn't too serious about it to begin with.

 

Exactly. There are a LOT of women who start breastfeeding because they know it is best, but they aren't fanatics. They think it is kind of weird but hey, everyone says it is better so they had better give it a shot.

 

And then they have a hard night, or they want to sleep and their husband reminds them they have that can of formula from the hospital and what if he gives the baby a bottle and she can sleep.  So she skips a nighttime feeding and that means she makes less milk and hey, the baby seems fine. Or she sits with some older mothers who talk about how they could never breastfeed because they were convinced the baby was going to starve to death. After all, you can't measure it, you can't see it, how do you really know? And, is that baby needing to nurse again? My, my he does eat a lot. How do you know he is getting enough?

 

I know so many women who quit breastfeeding after only nursing for two or three days under just those circumstances.

 

Now, yes, they weren't 'too serious' to begin with, but those are exactly the women who need extra support, not a case of formula that they got for free from the maternity store. Maybe if that formula weren't there she wouldn't have been quite that quick to wean. Maybe she would have breastfeed for a week more or 10 days more or even 6 weeks. Those are valuable days and weeks for her baby.

 

Just because she isn't 'too serious' doesn't mean she should be undermined or sabotaged by companies who only see her baby as profit and know exactly how to prey on her fears. That mother and that baby deserve just as much support for their breastfeeding relationship as a mother and baby who are both totally committed to breastfeeding for the long haul.

 

 

But, no one should be forced to breastfeed against her will. That is just ridiculous. 

[Impish]

If horrific is too strong a term, how about 'appalling'? 

 

There's something about legally forcing a woman to nurse for 2 yrs, or face potential legal issues that churns my stomach.

 

I will say I've never been given samples via any health care provider, nor was formula ever offered to me at the hospital.

 

In fact, I did hear something about women having to meet w/a lactation consultant before the hospital would provide formula, if there wasn't a medical reason for not bfing. I don't know, first hand, since it was a medical issue for me.

[redsquirrel]

If horrific is too strong a term, how about 'appalling'? 

 

There's something about legally forcing a woman to nurse for 2 yrs, or face potential legal issues that churns my stomach.

 

I will say I've never been given samples via any health care provider, nor was formula ever offered to me at the hospital.

 

In fact, I did hear something about women having to meet w/a lactation consultant before the hospital would provide formula, if there wasn't a medical reason for not bfing. I don't know, first hand, since it was a medical issue for me.

 

Perhaps you have only given birth in a 'baby friendly hospital or one that follows the UNICEF guidelines.  Or, aren't you Canadian? It might be more restricted there. There are hospitals in the US (and maybe Canada, I don't know) where it is very common to hand out formula.

 

Only one of my kids was born in a hospital and that was because he was a preemie. Let me tell you, the battle to breastfeed a preemie is no small feat. It involved a lot of luck and my special brand of extreme stubbornness to the point of foolishness.

 

Anyway, as we are leaving the hospital I had a nurse shove a can of formula in my hands three times! I kept telling her that I didn't want it, didn't need it, wouldn't take it, no thank you etc. And she kept shoving it at me, telling me that breastfeeding is nice and all, but most moms just don't know how hard it can be etc etc. In the end I took it and then threw it into the trashcan next to the elevator on the way out. I was so emotionally fragile by that point I couldn't even deal with it.

 

My local hospital (not the one where I had my son because he needed specialized care) does not give formula and they have lactation consultants on staff to meet with all new mothers. They are not designated as 'baby friendly' but they are following the guidelines.

 

I did get a case of formula on my doorstep TWICE because I bought some maternity pants and they sold my name. I had to call several times to make them stop sending me stuff. I got the cases, I got coupons, I got bottles and samples etc. It was really disturbing.

 

 

and I don't think horrific is too strong a word. The idea of forcing a woman to breastfeed should turn your stomach. The idea of anyone forcing a woman to do anything with or not with her own body, against her free will is horrific.

[staceyobu]

My understanding is that the Koran states that babies are entitled to two years of breastmilk.  So, this law would be to get residents to adhere to the Koran.  Not at all about improving breastfeeding rates.

[Slartibartfast]

My understanding is that the Koran states that babies are entitled to two years of breastmilk.  So, this law would be to get residents to adhere to the Koran.  Not at all about improving breastfeeding rates.

 

The World Health Organization recommends two years. It is in the Quran but that also happens to be the recommended minimum.

 

It is not mandatory according to the Quran.

 

 

 

Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]. Upon the father is the mothers' provision and their clothing according to what is acceptable. No person is charged with more than his capacity. No mother should be harmed through her child, and no father through his child. And upon the [father's] heir is [a duty] like that [of the father]. And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation, there is no blame upon either of them. And if you wish to have your children nursed by a substitute, there is no blame upon you as long as you give payment according to what is acceptable.

 Quran 2:233

[Camelfeet]

My understanding is that the Koran states that babies are entitled to two years of breastmilk.  So, this law would be to get residents to adhere to the Koran.  Not at all about improving breastfeeding rates.

 

No, I think your understanding is flawed.  These laws are not about imposing islam/the koran on residents.  Though Islamic, the UAE is tolerant of other religions. They sell liquor here, they sell pork, they allow churches and temples of other religions, christmas is just as big a deal here as in north america, and women don't have to cover.  Only 10% of residents are citizens, the rest are expatriates.  If they wanted to start imposing Islamic values, there are easier ways to go about doing it than targeting the small demographic of nursing mothers.   If it were being mandated only to get Muslims to adhere to the Koran, then the law would only apply to muslims (such as the laws around liquor), but they are being very specific that this is meant for all people regardless of nationality or religion.  

 

As mentioned previously, this article is just a small part of a larger Child's Rights draft law containing 77 articles.  Some of those articles are: right to both physical and emotional safety, to healthcare, and to education.  It prohibits sexual and economic exploitation, and gets specific on what that means.  It strengthens the punishments for those that violate rights of a child, it defines what is considered violence against children (vs discipline), it calls for mandatory reporting of suspected abuse, and it establishes a judicial organization that can investigate cases of suspected child abuse.  So, IMO, they are doing this to improve breastfeeding rates because they honestly believe that its better for the child.  Its just unfortunate that with this issue they are going about it completely the wrong way. 

[redsquirrel]

Anything in those 77 articles that give girls any protection from child marriage? Or is that not an issue in the UAE

[umsami]

Anything in those 77 articles that give girls any protection from child marriage? Or is that not an issue in the UAE

 

More of an issue in Yemen. UNICEF does not list as a concern in the UAE--and the UAE has made changes that have really helped the issue.  Minimum age for marriage for both boys and girls is 18, and a judge (not parents) must approve any exceptions. The percentage of young women married between 15 and 19 years of age dropped from 57 percent in 1975 to an astonishing eight percent in 1995.

 

But thanks for assuming that because it's a Muslim country, they must have a child marriage issue.  It's not a uniquely Muslim problem--but common in many rural developing countries, affecting 1/3 of the world's girls.  Here are the top 20 countries from http://www.icrw.org/child-marriage-facts-and-figures:

 

 

Rank Country Name % girls married before 18

1 Niger 75

2 Chad 68

3 Central African Republic 68

4 Bangladesh  66

5 Guinea 63

6 Mozambique  56

7 Mali 55

8 Burkina Faso 52

9 South Sudan 52

10 Malawi  50

11 Madagascar 48

12 Eritrea 47

13 India 47

14 Somalia 45

15 Sierra Leone 44

16 Zambia 42

17 Dominican Republic 41

18 Ethiopia  41

19 Nepal  41

20 Nicaragua 41

[La Condessa]

But thanks for assuming that because it's a Muslim country, they must have a child marriage issue. It's not a uniquely Muslim problem--but common in many rural developing countries, affecting 1/3 of the world's girls.

May I ask why you keep trying to make this about religion? You seem to assume that everyone's responses are based on a bias against Islamic countries, even though they have said nothing to indicate that might be the case. Is it so unreasonable that, having heard things in the news about child marriage in that general region of the world, a person might ask whether or not it is an issue in the specific country under discussion?

[stripe]

That is in the UAE, there are many laws there that are objectionable.

I'm just curious, not really knowing much about the UAE myself, what UAE laws do you have in mind? The only ones I have really heard of are expats who have been fined for indecent behavior, but I know people who've lived there who say prostitution and open sex on the beaches by expats is very common.

 

I think actually this could have an unintended consequence that I haven't seen mentioned here. It's not that husbands would be vindictively forcing their wives to breastfeed, I don't think. I really don't think there are that many men there or anywhere who are so pumped about breastfeeding or would find it beneficial to themselves to have their wives breastfeeding. UAE citizens already get quite a lot of perks from the government, so I don't think people there are financially strapped either. Rather I think it would encourage or even force mothers' access to their young children after a divorce or during marital problems where some men might want to take the children away from their mothers.

 

Re child marriage: The age of legal marriage is 18 years -- of course, not everyone follows the laws, but the average age of marriage for UAE women (not counting expats) is 25.8 years.  More boys drop out of school than girls. It's a very wealthy country. Their under 5 mortality rate is lower than that of the US per UNICEF statistics.  

[Caclcoca]

Having not been able to breast feed, I would've been upset if someone else (ie wet nurse)had exclusively fed my children. I did let my mom and my husband feed them some, but I enjoyed snuggling with my babies while they drank their bottle. In hindsight I wouldn't trade those times (even late at night) for anything despite.

[Camelfeet]

I'm just curious, not really knowing much about the UAE myself, what UAE laws do you have in mind? The only ones I have really heard of are expats who have been fined for indecent behavior, but I know people who've lived there who say prostitution and open sex on the beaches by expats is very common.

 

 

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to answer anyway.  Prostitution is "common", and though I've never seen them some of my bar hopping friends have. Not as common as other places in asia.  They certainly aren't soliciting in malls or on the streets.  There are a large number of unmarried expat males, and a large number of women who make a pittance... so its bound to happen with some frequency.

 

People CANNOT have sex on the beach.  Nononono.  If anyone told you that was common they were mistaken.  That sort of thing is what gets British expats thrown in jail.    

[umsami]

May I ask why you keep trying to make this about religion? You seem to assume that everyone's responses are based on a bias against Islamic countries, even though they have said nothing to indicate that might be the case. Is it so unreasonable that, having heard things in the news about child marriage in that general region of the world, a person might ask whether or not it is an issue in the specific country under discussion?

 

Because redsquirrel's comments brought up child marriage in an article about breastfeeding.  The two have nothing to do with each other. 

 

Because Islamophobia is ripe in America…and I encounter assumptions and stereotypes every.single.day.  I get "creeping Sharia' comments at least weekly.  It gets tiring.

 

Because you yourself are lumping all of those countries together…when they are really quite different. 

[redsquirrel]

More of an issue in Yemen. UNICEF does not list as a concern in the UAE--and the UAE has made changes that have really helped the issue.  Minimum age for marriage for both boys and girls is 18, and a judge (not parents) must approve any exceptions. The percentage of young women married between 15 and 19 years of age dropped from 57 percent in 1975 to an astonishing eight percent in 1995.

 

But thanks for assuming that because it's a Muslim country, they must have a child marriage issue.  It's not a uniquely Muslim problem--but common in many rural developing countries, affecting 1/3 of the world's girls.  Here are the top 20 countries from http://www.icrw.org/child-marriage-facts-and-figures:

 

 

Rank Country Name % girls married before 18

1 Niger 75

2 Chad 68

3 Central African Republic 68

4 Bangladesh  66

5 Guinea 63

6 Mozambique  56

7 Mali 55

8 Burkina Faso 52

9 South Sudan 52

10 Malawi  50

11 Madagascar 48

12 Eritrea 47

13 India 47

14 Somalia 45

15 Sierra Leone 44

16 Zambia 42

17 Dominican Republic 41

18 Ethiopia  41

19 Nepal  41

20 Nicaragua 41

 

I did not assume that child marriage is common because the UAE is a Muslim country. I asked about child marriage because the UAE is a theocracy. It could be any flavour of theocracy and I would have concerns about the status and equal opportunity for women as well as their access to equal protection and equal status in the eyes of the law.

 

 

 

Because redsquirrel's comments brought up child marriage in an article about breastfeeding.  The two have nothing to do with each other. 

 

Because Islamophobia is ripe in America…and I encounter assumptions and stereotypes every.single.day.  I get "creeping Sharia' comments at least weekly.  It gets tiring.

 

Because you yourself are lumping all of those countries together…when they are really quite different. 

 

I brought it up because I read the following post by Camel foot and she mentioned the breastfeeding issue is only one of 77 articles and how they are coming from a desire to make life better for children. That made me wonder just how serious that desire is. Seeing as Camel foot is posting to this thread and seems to have some first hand knowledge of what is happening I thought it might be a good place to get more information.

 

 

No, I think your understanding is flawed.  These laws are not about imposing islam/the koran on residents.  Though Islamic, the UAE is tolerant of other religions. They sell liquor here, they sell pork, they allow churches and temples of other religions, christmas is just as big a deal here as in north america, and women don't have to cover.  Only 10% of residents are citizens, the rest are expatriates.  If they wanted to start imposing Islamic values, there are easier ways to go about doing it than targeting the small demographic of nursing mothers.   If it were being mandated only to get Muslims to adhere to the Koran, then the law would only apply to muslims (such as the laws around liquor), but they are being very specific that this is meant for all people regardless of nationality or religion.  

 

As mentioned previously, this article is just a small part of a larger Child's Rights draft law containing 77 articles.  Some of those articles are: right to both physical and emotional safety, to healthcare, and to education.  It prohibits sexual and economic exploitation, and gets specific on what that means.  It strengthens the punishments for those that violate rights of a child, it defines what is considered violence against children (vs discipline), it calls for mandatory reporting of suspected abuse, and it establishes a judicial organization that can investigate cases of suspected child abuse.  So, IMO, they are doing this to improve breastfeeding rates because they honestly believe that its better for the child.  Its just unfortunate that with this issue they are going about it completely the wrong way. 

 

I was wondering about any number of issues that could fall under the heading "child's rights" but only had the time to ask about child marriage.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm just curious, not really knowing much about the UAE myself, what UAE laws do you have in mind? The only ones I have really heard of are expats who have been fined for indecent behavior, but I know people who've lived there who say prostitution and open sex on the beaches by expats is very common.

 

I think actually this could have an unintended consequence that I haven't seen mentioned here. It's not that husbands would be vindictively forcing their wives to breastfeed, I don't think. I really don't think there are that many men there or anywhere who are so pumped about breastfeeding or would find it beneficial to themselves to have their wives breastfeeding. UAE citizens already get quite a lot of perks from the government, so I don't think people there are financially strapped either. Rather I think it would encourage or even force mothers' access to their young children after a divorce or during marital problems where some men might want to take the children away from their mothers.

 

Re child marriage: The age of legal marriage is 18 years -- of course, not everyone follows the laws, but the average age of marriage for UAE women (not counting expats) is 25.8 years.  More boys drop out of school than girls. It's a very wealthy country. Their under 5 mortality rate is lower than that of the US per UNICEF statistics.  

There are many articles of consulates and governments warning their citizens of issues that may arise when traveling. I have to assume if governments are getting involved in warning their citizens that it is something that has been an issue.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/15/us/shezanne-cassim-parody-video/

 

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/local-laws-and-customs

 

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/general/filipinos-expatriates-need-more-awareness-of-uae-laws-1.1286534

 

Sex on the beach may be common but people can go to jail over it

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/24/dubai-expats-convicted-indecent-behaviour

[AimeeM]

I nursed my middle boy for 3 years and I'm currently nursing my 19 month old son.

I hate breastfeeding. It would be incredibly easy for a woman who feels the same as I do, and doesn't have the familial support that I am blessed to have, to become resentful or depressed about breastfeeding, if she were forced to. When I say I hate it, I do sincerely mean that I loathe it. I do it because I can, because I do feel it's best, and because I have support in doing so. With my first son it was medically best because of some problems he had; with this currently nursing kiddo, the extra calories and immunities serve him well.

So, yes, even as a pro-breastfeeder, this type of law horrifies me (and I do not think that's too strong a word, Imp).

[Slartibartfast]

These breastfeeding threads always get heated, and since you actually took the time to do online research and post links, this is clearly a hot-button issue for you.

I just knew where to look. I am a black belt in google-fu

 

*makes impossible to spell noises while performing poorly executed karate poses*

[Catwoman]

I just knew where to look. I am a black belt in google-fu

 

*makes impossible to spell noises while performing poorly executed karate poses*

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Clearly, you are to be feared. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

 

So, yes, even as a pro-breastfeeder, this type of law horrifies me (and I do not think that's too strong a word, Imp).

 

Under what circumstances does it "horrify" you? As has been stated, formula feeding is downright dangerous in some countries (not the UAE, but the UAE does see itself as a leader of sorts on some of these issues among Arab nations). Is it "horrific" to make it illegal in order to protect the lives of babies in those cases? Is it "horrific" to make babies ride in car seats because we are infringing on their parents' rights to make decisions? 

 

If you want to ignore the research and come at this *only* from a western perspective, then you can. I just don't think it is a very accurate portrayal of what is actually happening.

[umsami]

I did not assume that child marriage is common because the UAE is a Muslim country. I asked about child marriage because the UAE is a theocracy. It could be any flavour of theocracy and I would have concerns about the status and equal opportunity for women as well as their access to equal protection and equal status in the eyes of the law.

 

 

 

 

I brought it up because I read the following post by Camel foot and she mentioned the breastfeeding issue is only one of 77 articles and how they are coming from a desire to make life better for children. That made me wonder just how serious that desire is. Seeing as Camel foot is posting to this thread and seems to have some first hand knowledge of what is happening I thought it might be a good place to get more information.

 

 

 

I was wondering about any number of issues that could fall under the heading "child's rights" but only had the time to ask about child marriage.

 

But…and a giant but…and a giant point that makes me think that yes, you are assuming all Muslim countries are like Iran or insert Muslim country of choice…the UAE is NOT a theocracy.  Definition of a theocracy: "Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."  Iran is commonly viewed as a theocracy--and is one of the only countries that would qualify.  The Vatican is a theocracy.  The UAE is not.

It is a President Federal monarchy.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

And secondly, it is possible for formula feeding to be safe as long as safety precautions are followed. In contrast, babies are not safe unrestrained in a car.

 

Women who formula feed with clean water and in correct proportions are not putting their baby at risk of disability and death.

 

Not all women are able to follow the restrictions you place on your own statement. That's exactly what makes it problematic. 

[Slartibartfast]

No, of course not! But you help those women through education, support, clean water, restriction of formula advertising etc, not through compelling them to breastfeed. Women in developing nations where clean water is a problem deserve as much say over their own bodies as anyone else.

I don't think anyone here is endorsing such a law but it is easy to see why some countries are trying to push formula producers out. Unicef has been fighting with them for decades.

[umsami]

Since you were asking about theocracies…and assuming they are negative.  I'll add that as far as Iran goes…just because it's a theocracy does not mean it's been entirely crap to women.  They out-do every other Muslim country, and out do the US in regards to women in STEM.  If other Muslim countries didn't have the Sunni/Shi'a split, perhaps they could learn from Iran in terms of education, literacy, and birth control.  While I'm honestly not a fan of many of their policies, and I thought that their last president was certifiably crazy, since the British and US backed Shah was disposed of in the Revolution...

 

Literacy for young women (under 24) in 2008 was 98.52%.  When the shah left, it was 42.33% for that same demographic.  For young men, it's almost the same today, 98.79%…but back in the Shah's time, they had a much higher literacy rate of 70.90%.  For all women, literacy rates are 80.66% now, and they were 24.42% in 1976 (Shah's time.)

 

In the Shah's time, women had on average 6 children/women.  Today it's less than 2.

 

Women make up 70% of science and engineering students in Iran.  In the US, 24% of STEM grads are women.

 

It's university population has gone from 100,000 in 1979 to over 2 million.

 

Of course, it's not all rosy.  They actually beat the US in terms of executions…although they tend to execute for drug crimes more than murder like we do.  Child marriages are starting to creep up again, after having dropped.  With a lot of back and forth, the minimum age for marriage went from 9 to 13, which is a step in the right direction, but not the 15 or 18 that many were hoping for.  Blood money for a woman, does not equal a man.  A woman's testimony is not as valuable as a man's.  Etc.   

[Mrs Mungo]

No, of course not! But you help those women through education, support, clean water, restriction of formula advertising etc, not through compelling them to breastfeed. Women in developing nations where clean water is a problem deserve as much say over their own bodies as anyone else.

Would I pass such a law? No. But, that is easy for me to say because I love in a country with plenty of access to clean water, education, formula for women who choose it and so forth.

 

Not all of these countries even have stable governments. Some of them are too dangerous for NGOs. If these things were easy, then there wouldn't be an issue.

 

I wouldn't create such a law. I don't support such a law. But, I can see why they exist in some countries.

[stripe]

 

 concern for the child is put ahead of concern for the mother instead of co-existing with a mother's needs and rights.

But maybe the mother's needs and rights are more complex than insofar as her breasts are concerned. Maybe, as I suggested previously, this is a way to ensure women have custody of their infants, no matter how badly a father might want to try to keep her away from her kids.

 

Sex on the beach may be common but people can go to jail over it
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/24/dubai-expats-convicted-indecent-behaviour

The same can be said for smoking crack in the US, but I'm pretty sure that in plenty of areas, it's common. The same with American prostitutes. I am just saying, I know people who have actually lived in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and they report that there are plenty of seedy things that go on in plain view. There is no shortage of prostitutes, and it's not very secret, for example. So just because someone was roughed up or jailed or threatened for holding hands or whatever at a cafe, doesn't mean it doesn't have a very openly sleazy aspect to society.

 

And just because something is a law, doesn't mean anyone cares about it, anyway. 

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states

 

My favorite so far is from Alabama: Putting salt on a railroad track may be punishable by death.

[redsquirrel]

But…and a giant but…and a giant point that makes me think that yes, you are assuming all Muslim countries are like Iran or insert Muslim country of choice…the UAE is NOT a theocracy.  Definition of a theocracy: "Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."  Iran is commonly viewed as a theocracy--and is one of the only countries that would qualify.  The Vatican is a theocracy.  The UAE is not.

It is a President Federal monarchy.

 

I also asked if child marriage is even an issue in the UAE. I didn't assume it was, I asked. I asked because there is (was?) a person on the thread who appears to have first hand knowledge of the place, beyond what a google search will tell me.

 

I asked because she mentioned that there are 77 proposals that are being proposed in an effort to 'help children' although I am not sure how mandatory government enforced breastfeeding will help anyone. I am of the opinion that acceptance (legal or tacit) of child marriage is one way for me (only me) to determine how much actual power women may or may not have in a society or culture. Is the only one? Not at all.

 

There are lots of places where the official form of government is stated to be one thing but is in fact a functioning theocracy. Or there are regions within countries where the area is run more like a theocracy...some are close to home.

 

I gotta run....

[umsami]

I also asked if child marriage is even an issue in the UAE. I didn't assume it was, I asked. I asked because there is (was?) a person on the thread who appears to have first hand knowledge of the place, beyond what a google search will tell me.

 

I asked because she mentioned that there are 77 proposals that are being proposed in an effort to 'help children' although I am not sure how mandatory government enforced breastfeeding will help anyone. I am of the opinion that acceptance (legal or tacit) of child marriage is one way for me (only me) to determine how much actual power women may or may not have in a society or culture. Is the only one? Not at all.

 

There are lots of places where the official form of government is stated to be one thing but is in fact a functioning theocracy. Or there are regions within countries where the area is run more like a theocracy...some are close to home.

 

I gotta run....

 

OK..but the UAE is not one of those.  Not ideal, but it's pretty liberal compared to most Muslim counties.  Capitalism is the religion just as much as Islam.  And btw, my initial thought was that they were just a group of monarchies (seven emirates that are joined)…I didn't know the bit about the president federal monarchy.

 

It's also pretty religiously free… there are churches, Hindu temples, etc.  You can bring in Bibles or whatever without issue.  

 

"In 2013, the Norway-based Global Network for Rights and Development (GNRD) released its annual International Human Rights Indicator (IHRRI) report that ranks the United Arab Emirates first among Arab countries and 14th globally for respecting human rights. The next Arab country on the list, Tunisia, was ranked at 72. The UAE was also ranked six spots ahead of the United States which was placed 20th overall. To acquire its 14th position, the UAE fared well across 21 individual categories, performing best in the education category with a 94 per cent finish for ensuring top education for all children. Few expatriate workers have access to the UAE's education system.

The UAE earned a 93 per cent rating for providing right to health care followed by an 85 per cent rating for right to life. For its protection for residents the right not to be deprived of property arbitrarily, the UAE was scored at 80 per cent while the country was scored at 79 per cent for protecting the rights of foreigners. The UAE was marked at 76 per cent for the right of protection for honour and equally at 76 per cent for the right to marry. A rating of 75 per cent was given to the UAE for working to protect the right to an adequate standard of living and 75 per cent was also given for the country's protection of the rights of the accused. The UAE's right to liberty and security was ranked at 71 per cent while the right of assembly in the UAE earned 70 points. The UAE also earned a 70 per cent rating for providing rights to acceptable conditions at work. Freedom of expression was scored at 69 per cent by the human rights indicator. The right to liberty of movement within the UAE was also scored at 69 per cent. The right to be free of discrimination was ranked at 66 per cent in the country.^[75][76]"

[Kate in Arabia]

One of the pushes behind this law was a truly horrible case where an 8 yr old was tortured to death by her father and allegedly his girlfriend. Before this law there was no clear, official law for things like mandatory reporting, removing a child from a home if he/she is in imminent danger, etc. I don't know or understand why the breast feeding bit was included, I don't know how it would be enforced at all. Historically a lot of things here were kept in the dark because of "family honor", or the culture of minding your own business.

 

Regarding child marriage, I teach English to local ladies in my emirate, which is smaller and more conservative. We had a discussion some months back on this issue, there was an editorial in the local paper written by a local woman on how much has changed in the traditions of marriage -- a big one being the average age of marriage for women, which as someone mentioned earlier is somewhere near 25 yrs now. I took a poll of how old the married ladies in my class were when they got married, virtually all were in their 20s, except for one woman about my age who said she was 14. She said that to this day she regrets it, she was actually in tears in the class (she is now divorced). Of course, for me growing up in KY, we had girls in my school who got married at 14-15 but that was due to pregnancy and not an arranged marriage.. The biggest change my students saw in marriage here, other than the later age, is that now they feel they can say no to an arranged marriage, whereas before women were under a lot of societal pressure to agree.

 

Fwiw, there are laws here that I disagree with -- for example abortion is illegal -- and practices that are allowed to go on even though it is officially in violation of the law -- like the work and housing conditions of laborers.

[Camelfeet]

I did not assume that child marriage is common because the UAE is a Muslim country. I asked about child marriage because the UAE is a theocracy. It could be any flavour of theocracy and I would have concerns about the status and equal opportunity for women as well as their access to equal protection and equal status in the eyes of the law.

 

The UAE is not a theocracy.  Women here have a much greater degree of freedom than you might have been led to believe. I get the feeling that people equate every country in the region with afghanistan and Saudi.  The UAE is not perfect of course, but they are doing better than anyone else in the region.     

 

I think appalled/horrified is an accurate description of how I feel whenever a government tries to mandate what a woman can or cannot do with her own body. Nobody is more pro-breastfeeding or children's rights than me, and yet ethical consistency means for me, this law is a bad law.

Whether it is a law made in non-Western country has nothing to do with my feelings of being appalled.

 

And the comparison with car safety is a poor one, IMO.

Firstly, strapping a child into a car seat doesn't impose on a woman's bodily integrity.

 

And secondly, it is possible for formula feeding to be safe as long as safety precautions are followed. In contrast, babies are not safe unrestrained in a car.

 

Women who formula feed with clean water and in correct proportions are not putting their baby at risk of disability and death.

 

You missed the point of the comparison.  My comparison of car seat laws and breastfeeding laws had nothing to do with bodily integrity.  I wasn't comparing the effects of either laws on the concerned parties either.  I was comparing how likely they are to be enforced.  I gave an example of car seats as a safety issue that is not currently being enforced at all, but that would be substantially easier to enforce should people have an interest in doing so.  This "horrific" breastfeeding law will be IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.  Authorities themselves have said that they have no idea how they would enforce it.  IMO, this won't impact the majority of women.  It will impact women with young children in the midst of divorce/seperation, and it will impact companies that will have to provide onsite nurseries for working mums.  That's it.  The booby police will not be wandering around checking moms of children under two for signs of lactation.  And on top of that, its not even law yet anyway.                 

[Kate in Arabia]

One wonders at the point of a law that can't be enforced.

 

From what little I've been able to find out about it, the lawmakers were intending it to be an "encouragement" towards breastfeeding.  :/    According to one quote I read it was also meant to encourage mother-child bonding and discourage new mothers from relying so much on nannies and maids.  :/  Again, this hasn't been signed into law, I have hope that the law will be amended.

 

There's a lot of soul-searching going on over here, in a country where the locals are a small minority of the population, and a rise in the number of people who are using (over-using?) maids or nannies.  I think there is a fear that they are gradually losing their heritage. 

[IsabelC]

Mandatory breastfeeding would just be another thing that puts the onus on women and does not make anybody else accountable.

 

How about instead of telling women what they can and can't do, start by strengthening and enforcing existing laws such as the ban on advertising of artificial baby milks, the rights of nursing mothers not to be discriminated against in the workplace or out and about? How about raising the financial security of women so that no mother is forced to return to work sooner than she wishes to after having a baby? How about adjusting family law so that single mothers don't have to leave their breastfed babies with the dad overnight, thus undermining breastfeeding on cue? Stamping out s3xual assault so that there aren't women so traumatized that they feel unable to use their breasts (yes, this happens!)? Ditching the culture of judging women on their 'f&*kability' that leads some women to value pert breasts more than optimal nutrition for babies? Women need more support and choices, not more rules and blaming. Once that happens, most women will happily breastfeed. Some mothers will always choose not to, and for them there is still donor breast milk or artificial baby milk, and everyone else can mind their own business.

 

I don't believe in the idea that women's rights and babies'/children's rights are in conflict. I think that if women's rights were fully upheld, the children's wellbeing would follow on automatically.

[umsami]

Thanks. That's interesting! What is an 85% rating for right to life ?

 

 

 

I searched their website and cannot find the definition that they use…but I'm assuming it's similar to this https://archive.is/niqKw

 

"For children, the right to life is the chance to be able to live and have the possibility to grow, to develop and become adults. This right comprises two essential aspects: the right to have one’s life protected from birth and the right to be able to survive and develop appropriately."