"what Drives Success?" - NYT

[SarahW]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?rref=opinion&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Opinion&action=keypress&region=FixedRight&pgtype=article

 

Another factor, which I gleaned from my relationships with 2nd-generation Americans my age, is that immigrants tend to believe the "American Dream" (or myth) more. They were told from childhood, "You are American, so you can be a doctor. Or a lawyer. Or a nurse (if female). You will be rich, because you are American, and Americans are rich."

 

The pressure to choose a high-paying career is very high. And the parents are very involved in making that career happen.

 

I'm weary of the word "grit." But I found the article interesting, overall.

[Catherine]

Agree. I know many do not like the Tiger Mother or her earlier book, and I don't agree with everything she says. Honestly, though, I think she makes many valid points. And it seems the point of this new book is "culture matters a lot in nurturing the values that lead to success." I agree with this. One reason I home school is that I don't think the culture of "school" is generally positive or intellectual. At some times, and in some places, it is. But IMO, not consistently, particularly for the younger grades.

[hepatica]

Interesting article. I see it got lots of comments, although I did not yet read them. 

 

I have two initial concerns with their argument. First, it seems they are measuring success by income and/or SAT scores. I am not sure that would be my primary measure of success. Perhaps there is more to it in their book??

 

Second, they claim that anyone can cultivate these traits, but it seems quite daunting for an individual family to take on the task of cultivating a sense of cultural superiority, or economic insecurity. These things are pervasive across cultural groups because they are deeply ingrained. I do think you can teach impulse control but apparently that alone won't do the trick.

 

The article reminds me a bit of Hilary Levy Friedman's book Playing to Win, where she talks about parents cultivating "competitive kid capital." Forget about what kind of human beings we really want to be. Just focus on the traits we need to be a part of the economic elite. These sorts of arguments always rub me the wrong way.

[Catherine]

Sorry these thoughts are random. I don't want a doctor or a lawyer who is in their profession due to its status and high pay. I want a doctor who is fascinated by the human body and loves to care for patients. I want a lawyer who is passionate about law. I realise those things are not mutually exclusive.

I want to address this sentiment. I think it's an oversimplification to say that a person is either "doing it for the high status and high pay" or "doing it for passionate interest". I'm a doctor and I can affirm that the process of getting where I am right now is not simple and certainly not attributable to one character trait. And I would be lying, as would most physicians, if I said that financial security was not one of the motivators that helped me along the way. Growing up without any financial security motivated me and I don't think for one minute that this means I'm a less competent or caring doctor.

 

Passion and interest are good, but those alone, IMO, will not lead to success. I also did not develop my full love of my work until I had been doing it for awhile, because it's simply not realistic for a college undergrad or high school student to (realistically) have a "fascination by the human body" (not in the professional sense at least LOL!)

 

I knew people in medical school who were, frankly, immature and not what would seem to be doctor material, personality wise. But in most cases they have grown into wonderful, caring and compassionate physicians. All of us grow up for many years and mature into careers as we learn on our feet.

Getting to the position of being accorded *the choice* of whether to go to medical school or become a social worker is the real substance of the problem that Amy Chua addresses. And again, I don't agree with everything she says, I'm not a total Tiger Mother (but please don't consult my kids about this!), but a student who enters high school without drive, self-discipline, very good work ethic, is pretty unlikely to find him or herself in the position of having the choice of medical school. It does happen, but rarely. I don't honestly think that being rich is what Amy Chua is talking about. It's having choices. If you graduate in the middle of your high school class, you have already eliminated many, many choices for yourself. If you choose to devote your young adulthood to pleasures instead of work, you will have eliminated many choices for yourself. Many of us home school to avoid the cultural influences that glorify pleasure, superficiality, and appearance. I think we share much with people like Amy Chua, even if we are not inclined to take it to the extremes that she does.

[MBM]

I think Chua has to consider the cohesiveness of the cultural groups, too. (Maybe she does, I haven't read her book.) Groups that live, work and function together, that tend to have similar goals and agendas can do well because they receive a lot of support -- and pressure -- from one another. This at least partly makes Chua's cultural groups strong. I live in a neighborhood that is predominantly Jewish and Chinese. The Jews tend to socialize with and help one another as do the Chinese.  I am Sioux, Norwegian and German. My husband is German and Italian. Neither my husband nor I belong to similar groups. We are also Catholic and our church does not have goals or agendas for parishioners that I know of or offer classes or even many get-togethers. Our church functions mostly as a means to attend Mass, help parishioners to an extent and to serve the general public.

 

As for improving groups, we might begin to see a change for the better in some groups as child-parent psychotherapy gains a foothold. Developed by Alicia Lieberman, it helps to create secure attachment even in toddlers who display disorganized attachment, the worst kind that is highly correlated with a future life of crime. (Attachment status at age one is highly predictive of a wide range of outcomes later in life.) The therapy helps mothers attach securely to their children. Sounds easy but it isn't for those who grew up without secure attachment themselves; they rarely form secure attachments with their children without some form of intervention. It's been fairly successful. After one year of therapy, about 60% of children who initially exhibited disorganized attachment were able to form secure attachments with their mothers. The children whose families received community services for abuse and neglect, also for a year, showed only showed a 2% improvement. Lieberman's therapy has been repeated with similar results. To sum it up, secure attachment is necessary for learning.

 

Trauma also needs to be considered. I don't know if Chua mentions the ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) Study but it shows that children who experience a lot of trauma cannot learn easily and ultimately die younger. Thankfully, intervention can help undo the damage. The following is a good article explaining the ACE Study and below that is a quote from the website.

 

http://acestoohigh.com/2012/10/03/the-adverse-childhood-experiences-study-the-largest-most-important-public-health-study-you-never-heard-of-began-in-an-obesity-clinic/

 

 

If a bear threatens a child every single day, his emergency response system is activated over and over and over again. He’s always ready to fight or flee from the bear, but the part of his brain – the prefrontal cortex – that’s called upon to diagram a sentence or do math becomes stunted, because, in our brains, emergencies – such as fleeing bears – take precedence over doing math.

 

For Harris’ patients who had four or more categories of adverse childhood experiences “their odds of having learning or behavior problems in school were 32 times as high as kids who had no adverse childhood experiences,†she told Glass.

 

Together, the two discoveries – the ACE epidemiology and the brain research — reveal a story too compelling to ignore:

 

Children with toxic stress live much of their lives in fight, flight or fright (freeze) mode. They respond to the world as a place of constant danger. With their brains overloaded with stress hormones and unable to function appropriately, they can’t focus on learning. They fall behind in school or fail to develop healthy relationships with peers or create problems with teachers and principals because they are unable to trust adults. Some kids do all three. With despair, guilt and frustration pecking away at their psyches, they often find solace in food, alcohol, tobacco, methamphetamines, inappropriate sex, high-risk sports, and/or work and over-achievement. They don’t regard these coping methods as problems. Consciously or unconsciously, they use them as solutions to escape from depression, anxiety, anger, fear and shame.

 

 

I don't know if Chua mentions the roles of attachment and trauma but they are definitely influential. Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed does a good job explaining the effects of both.

[rzberrymom]

Getting to the position of being accorded *the choice* of whether to go to medical school or become a social worker is the real substance of the problem that Amy Chua addresses. And again, I don't agree with everything she says, I'm not a total Tiger Mother (but please don't consult my kids about this!), but a student who enters high school without drive, self-discipline, very good work ethic, is pretty unlikely to find him or herself in the position of having the choice of medical school. It does happen, but rarely. I don't honestly think that being rich is what Amy Chua is talking about. It's having choices. If you graduate in the middle of your high school class, you have already eliminated many, many choices for yourself. If you choose to devote your young adulthood to pleasures instead of work, you will have eliminated many choices for yourself.

I've only read her first book, but this is what I took away from her work.

 

I saw an interview with her where she talked about how people often find her idea of pushing very very hard from age 8 to age 12 or 13 to be offensive, but what she finds offensive/abusive is the current American mainstream way of continuing to coddle/baby kids all the way through high school and into the college application process. She claimed that she was quite hands-off once her kids got to high school, that her work had mostly been done, that a child's work ethic and drive needs to be in place by age 13 or there isn't a whole lot we can do. It really made me think about these precious young years.

[Indian summer]

Some random thoughts that come to mind.

 

Do most white Americans have a sense of pride in their heritage, their ancestry? Do you? I don't mean believing in white supremacy, but just "I come from strong, hard working, industrious people".

 

Are we supposed to instill a sense of inferiority in our kids? (I mean themselves, not their culture) or is this a byproduct of expecting excellence and mastery?

[8filltheheart]

I've only read her first book, but this is what I took away from her work.

 

I saw an interview with her where she talked about how people often find her idea of pushing very very hard from age 8 to age 12 or 13 to be offensive, but what she finds offensive/abusive is the current American mainstream way of continuing to coddle/baby kids all the way through high school and into the college application process. She claimed that she was quite hands-off once her kids got to high school, that her work had mostly been done, that a child's work ethic and drive needs to be in place by age 13 or there isn't a whole lot we can do. It really made me think about these precious young years.

 

I have never read her book and only skimmed multiple articles that have been linked, but honestly, to suggest that only pushing very, very hard from 8-12/13 is the only way to produce self-motivated, self-regulating, high work ethic teens is simply her reality and not a universal one.

 

It sort of reminds me of the running joke I have with my family and friends.   If I had one child, my Aspie, I would believe I was the world's worst parent.   If I only had 2 kids, my 9th and 12th graders, I would think I was the world's best parent and should be hired to write parenting books.   :001_rolleyes:

 

I am the anti-thesis of a Tiger Mom.   I am a nurturing mom that allows my kids to drive themselves and encourages them to achieve their highest level of personal success.  Are my kids pretty much on auto-pilot by middle school?   Yes.   They are completely self-motivated.   No Tiger Mom push required.

 

FWIW, I want my kids to pursue careers and lifestyles that allow them to live life vs. live a career.    So my world view is probably off key of hers.  

[rzberrymom]

I have never read her book and only skimmed multiple articles that have been linked, but honestly, to suggest that only pushing very, very hard from 8-12/13 is the only way to produce self-motivated, self-regulating, high work ethic teens is simply her reality and not a universal one.

She was arguing that this is a Chinese parenting approach, which obviously differs *tremendously* from the mainstream American approach.

[creekland]

I have never read her book and only skimmed multiple articles that have been linked, but honestly, to suggest that only pushing very, very hard from 8-12/13 is the only way to produce self-motivated, self-regulating, high work ethic teens is simply her reality and not a universal one.

 

It sort of reminds me of the running joke I have with my family and friends.   If I had one child, my Aspie, I would believe I was the world's worst parent.   If I only had 2 kids, my 9th and 12th graders, I would think I was the world's best parent and should be hired to write parenting books.   :001_rolleyes:

 

I am the anti-thesis of a Tiger Mom.   I am a nurturing mom that allows my kids to drive themselves and encourages them to achieve their highest level of personal success.  Are my kids pretty much on auto-pilot by middle school?   Yes.   They are completely self-motivated.   No Tiger Mom push required.

 

FWIW, I want my kids to pursue careers and lifestyles that allow them to live life vs. live a career.    So my world view is probably off key of hers.  

 

I've only ever been mildly interested in reading about her books as I'm really can't stand the thought of Tiger Moms.

 

We've always cultivated getting an education out of pure curiosity and desire to know about our world rather than "work for some financial or prestige goal."

 

We've allowed ours to choose ECs that fit them - and our nature loving traveling lifestyle.

 

We've always told our boys to choose something in life they love doing rather than worrying about how much money it makes.

 

I have absolutely no regrets along those lines.  My world is also off key of hers...

 

We had a Chinese exchange student at our school not long ago.  Since he was a senior I asked him what his post graduation plans were (I do this with all seniors at some point).  His answer, "my parents want me to be an engineer, so I'm going to _____ to study engineering."  I then asked him if that's what he liked doing and he looked at me quite bewildered - a totally foreign question to him.  I changed the subject... but I'll admit to feeling really sorry for him.  We got along VERY well - I really liked him.  If he had wanted to become an engineer I wouldn't have felt sorry for him at all, but the poor lad never had a chance to figure out who HE was.

 

There's no way in the world I'd wish that on any person.

 

[momma2three]

She was arguing that this is a Chinese parenting approach, which obviously differs *tremendously* from the mainstream American approach.

 

Her final takeaway from her experiences she wrote about in the Tiger Mom book was "when Chinese parenting works, it's the best.  When it doesn't, it's a fiasco."

 

I actually liked it a lot more than I thought I would.  The book itself was very different from what the press was.  I'm a bit interested to read the new book, too.

[Catherine]

You know I realize as I'm reading everyone's responses that I'm influenced by the fact that I know so many people who have really floundered in adolescence and young adulthood. I have this idea that their struggles have been caused by poor guidance and mentoring by their parents, so I want to avoid that situation with my own kids by making sure they have a good work ethic, sensible and achievable long term plans, and practical ideas about life and their future. Hence my reluctance to give my kids a total free rein when they are setting their early work habits, and other stuff (like quitting things abruptly when they are frustrated, etc.)

 

So my question to you all, very sincerely asked, is this: Have you faced a situation where your child's interest-led progress stalled, where they resisted working, or where they wanted to pursue something you really thought was ill-advised? And if so, how did you handle it?

[creekland]

Hence my reluctance to give my kids a total free rein when they are setting their early work habits, and other stuff (like quitting things abruptly when they are frustrated, etc.)

 

So my question to you all, very sincerely asked, is this: Have you faced a situation where your child's interest-led progress stalled, where they resisted working, or where they wanted to pursue something you really thought was ill-advised? And if so, how did you handle it?

 

 

Ok, even my fairly free range parents wouldn't let me quit anything abruptly - period - and yes, independent young me tried when I didn't want to sing in the third grade chorus anymore. I even told the teacher I was quitting - and had to humbly go back up to her and apologize when my parents (not yet divorced) wouldn't back me up.  Their lesson?  Choose whatever you want to do, but once you choose something, you MUST stick with it until it (or the year/season, whatever) is over.  You will NEVER let other people down by signing up for something, then deciding you don't want to do it.  Good lesson BTW.  I finished chorus that year and never signed up for it again - with their blessing.  I never tried such a thing like that again either.  If I choose to do something - I do it.

 

My guys have been raised the same way, but I've given them fair warning BEFORE signing up for something that they are committing for the whole season.

 

If it's interest-led progress, it all depends upon what it is.  When youngest opted to change from one intense topic to another (aspie-ish), it's no big deal.  He's switched from dinosaurs to bats to Russian to French, etc (all topics he chose, but the sequence is not  even close to 100% complete).  These are all things he was going in depth on totally on his own - hurting no one to switch.  They were never "credit" stuff for school.

 

Resisted working?  At home or with school?  At home... not happening.  They might grumble (usually don't) but they know expectations and deal with it.  If they were to truly say no, my inclination would be that they no longer get to participate in "home" goods and services... Want dinner?  Go buy it yourself - oh - and that car is ours, so enjoy the walk.  We're in a common sense area, so I'd have had no fear from CPS.  Any police officer around here would listen to why and what, then tell the kid to quit his whining and grow up - and wish us well.  ;)

 

At school (homeschool or otherwise)?  I never had to deal with it with oldest two.  Youngest has the trait of putting far more effort into things he likes.  They were raised alike.  My guess is it has to deal with his genetics and is not a parenting factor.  We do try to nag encourage him to keep up on everything, but with his personality, pushing too far leads to the opposite response.  He'll do things, but far worse than capable (on purpose).  I have recollections of doing the exact same thing in first grade... with boring busywork...so much that I almost failed the grade (literally), so yeah, I blame genetics and try to handle it with kid gloves rather than Tiger momishness.

 

Pursuing something ill-advised?  This happened with youngest right after he was diagnosed with epilepsy.  All of a sudden he told us he was planning on going into the ministry rather than something flora/fauna related.  We were stunned.  We're Christian. Ministry is NOT a bad path/option!  But we also never saw it as "him."   I believe it came out of a "bargain with God" type of thing, but that's a guess.  I've seen kids who have chosen to go full time ministry (not just two year LDS, but full time career).  They are truly in to it just as many are with their paths.  But youngest is our rebel.  If we had said no, that would make him more determined.  So, instead, we suggested doing both.  Pick something flora/fauna and ADD ministry stuff - sort of like how Paul was a tentmaker.  Win-win.  When it comes time for him to pick his occupation, he should know what appeals.  It could be ministry OR he might opt to do something flora/fauna and simply be more involved in his church, etc.  We'll support him either way.  As long as he's not a pimp, illegal drug dealer, or terrorist... just as we've told all three of them all along... we'll be proud of them on their paths.

 

We do discuss the pros/cons of each path - and discuss what reality is likely to look like.  (Salary ranges, years of schooling, opportunities, etc.)  That's part of being a guidance counselor IMO.  We never push to a path.  Oldest was really undecided up until senior year of homeschooling.  We finally told him just to pick something he thought he would like - and he could always change later if he wanted to.  It worked.  Middle and youngest have been more focused earlier.  That is definitely easier, but both ways work.

[hepatica]

It just seems such a rat race childhood of drive and deprivation all to squeeze through the shrinking bottleneck of admissions to a few elite universities, make the right connections to secure the right positions that will allow you to maintain your status and income in a tiny little elite that is getting more and more exclusive and further and further away from the masses of the population. When did the idea of "middle class" become anathema? How can it be ruinous to finish in the middle of your high school class? We can't all be above average. There has to be room for the idea of a good life, well lived that is not defined by being at the top of the heap. IMO, a modest life lived with passion is so much more desirable than a desperate drive for status and economic success. I suppose I would not be homeschooling if I did not feel this way, choosing to live on just one income.

 

I think it is inevitable that our children will choose paths different from what we expect. My oldest wants to be a dancer. It's crazy. It's an almost impossible goal, and even if she make it she will never be financially 'successful." She has given up almost everything else in pursuit of this goal. She claims she does not want to go to college. I can not live her life for her. I feel it is my job to give her an education that will give her options, but she knows that every choice involves sacrifices. I love her, and I will guide her, but as she gets older more and more of those choices will be hers. I may not agree with them, but she is passionate about her life and I think that has value over and above Chua's narrow definitions of "success."

[creekland]

IMO, a modest life lived with passion is so much more desirable than a desperate drive for status and economic success.

 

...

 

more and more of those choices will be hers. I may not agree with them, but she is passionate about her life and I think that has value over and above Chua's narrow definitions of "success."

 

I am so in agreement with you...

 

There's nothing wrong with STEM, status, and economic success, but they are only the right path for those who truly desire them - the kids - not the parents.  The kids who desire these paths need guidance to get there, but not tiger mom pushing IME. They want it on their own and often can get there or somewhere close even without great parenting as they'll hunt down those paths and take them.  (NOT all can make it, but many do IF it's their desire and they are academically talented enough.)

 

Others can get there with tiger mom pushing, but do they end up satisfied and fulfilled in a path that never was truly theirs?  Or do they end up with other issues?  Would we do the same forcing someone to be a dancer?  I'm sure many could dance if forced to...

 

Hubby is definitely E of STEM, but we still opt for a modest life lived with passion over other options that would provide more "economic" success.

 

To each our own - and may we support our kids in THEIR path.

 

[Library Momma]

I'm not quite sure why people keep bringing up social work as an unsuccessful career.  It is my understanding that you need a masters degree in social work to be a social worker.

[8filltheheart]

I'm not quite sure why people keep bringing up social work as an unsuccessful career.  It is my understanding that you need a masters degree in social work to be a social worker.

 

They are not saying that it is an unsuccessful career by their definition.   They are saying it in terms of "wealth and prestige" which is what Chau is using to define success (I am assuming that b/c i haven't read her book, but that is the way I read the posts.)

[Catherine]

I'm not quite sure why people keep bringing up social work as an unsuccessful career.  It is my understanding that you need a masters degree in social work to be a social worker.

 

I mentioned social work, but not as an unsuccessful career.  I hope my words were not misinterpreted-the social workers I know are doing a very difficult, often thankless job and deserve far more recognition than they get!  Speaking for myself, an unsuccessful career is one that the person hasn't chosen actively, but is forced into by circumstances and is not happy with.  

 

I am blessed with three kids who are not very internally driven.  Maybe I have caused this?  They've all had periods of motivation and periods, sometimes rather long and worrying ones, of really lacking motivation-for anything.  One of the three stands out as clearly more internally driven though and I honestly wonder if there is some factor beyond our control in the other two.  

 

More later.

[creekland]

I'm not quite sure why people keep bringing up social work as an unsuccessful career.  It is my understanding that you need a masters degree in social work to be a social worker.

 

Because humans who are inclined to rank things tend to use income and prestige.  A social worker has neither in their eyes.  It's also tough to get a decent ROI with the lower income.

 

NOTE:  I am NOT one of those who ranks that way and tend to not look fondly upon those who do (like, say, Tiger mom).  I have, however, heard many who do feel that way.

 

My personal ranking says those who are doing a "job" that they love to do so much that it isn't really a "job" (most of the time anyway) and in some way or fashion are self-sufficient, are at the top of the ladder.  Kudos to them!

 

Those who are stuck in jobs they really don't like are those at the bottom.  (I encourage these to see what they can do to change their situation - at any age.)

 

In either case, it doesn't matter if one is a garbage collector or a doctor (or anywhere in between). 

 

We are encouraging both our potential Marine Biologist (also a poor ROI deal) AND our potential doctor because both are following the path they desire for their lives.  Should either deviate based upon their desires changing, we'll also support them.

 

Will they reach the top of the ladder?  I don't know, but I sure hope so.

 

[8filltheheart]

You know I realize as I'm reading everyone's responses that I'm influenced by the fact that I know so many people who have really floundered in adolescence and young adulthood. I have this idea that their struggles have been caused by poor guidance and mentoring by their parents, so I want to avoid that situation with my own kids by making sure they have a good work ethic, sensible and achievable long term plans, and practical ideas about life and their future. Hence my reluctance to give my kids a total free rein when they are setting their early work habits, and other stuff (like quitting things abruptly when they are frustrated, etc.)

 

So my question to you all, very sincerely asked, is this: Have you faced a situation where your child's interest-led progress stalled, where they resisted working, or where they wanted to pursue something you really thought was ill-advised? And if so, how did you handle it?

 

Other than with my Aspie, no.   But, my Aspie is definitely disabled by his disability.

 

But, that does not mean that my kids have never made bad decisions.   Of course they have.   Don't we all?   We don't bail our kids out of the choices they make with their eyes wide open and understanding the ramifications of those choices bc we are completely of the opinion that it is their life.

 

Maybe I should back up, though.   We do have expectations that we expect our kids to achieve.    They aren't false, forced, or arbitrary.   They are realistic educational and character goals that are defined by their abilities/personalities and our core beliefs/values.    Education in our house isn't rigid.   It is fluid.   It moves, shifts, grows, and expands with the individual child.   When they are younger and they don't want to meet expectations, they are required to.   (Big difference, though, in that my kids' daily workloads are most definitely age appropriate and not burdensome.)    By the time they reach high school, they are discovering their own paths and we are researching what it takes to meet their personal goals.     Their career objectives/educational objectives are their own.   Not mine.  Not their dads. 

 

In high school our oldest ds had friends that only did school 4 days a week for a couple of hrs per day.   Their parents were telling him that we didn't know what we were talking about in what we were requiring him to do.   He wanted to be a chemical engineer.   We sat him down, showed him the amt of work it was going to take, and told him if it was what he wanted this is what it was going to take.  If he wanted to pursue something different, he still had to meet minimum objectives to graduate.  Yet even within that we were flexible.   He really should have taken physics in high school, but he wanted to take anatomy and physiology b/c his then girlfriend/now wife was and she was a weak student and he wanted to help her.  Wise decision?  No.  Life determining?  No.  It simply meant when he walked into his cal-based physics as his very first exposure to physics he had to work his tail off.  Natural consequences for the choices he had made.   (I am a huge believer in natural consequences being the best teacher.)

 

But we also teach our kids their entire lives that life is a path of daily decisions.   Every choice they make leads them on different paths.   They are the ones in control of where their feet take them b/c their life is theirs and their conscience controls where their feet take them.   They cannot blame others for their personal decisions b/c the responsibility belongs to them.  

[alef]

I think homeschoolers are actually good candidates to demonstrate the traits discussed--a sense of superiority, combined with insecurity and self discipline. But I think there is a great deal of variation in how different families define success.

[creekland]

 

It sort of reminds me of the running joke I have with my family and friends.   If I had one child, my Aspie, I would believe I was the world's worst parent.   If I only had 2 kids, my 9th and 12th graders, I would think I was the world's best parent and should be hired to write parenting books.   :001_rolleyes:

 

 

If I had only had my oldest and/or middle I'd be incredibly smug and wonder what was wrong with everyone else...  God knew this and gave me youngest, who, incidentally, is the one who has inherited the most of my genetics (the viewable part anyway) personality-wise.  It's been a great lesson at understanding more about myself and offering more in apologies to my parents for my youth. 

 

It's also helped me understand the vast variety of personalities out there who I come across in ps.  It's very rare that I don't get along with a student and understand how to get them to want to work for me (at least for the short term), but it's not "one" way.  It varies based upon the student and the situation.  When I'm not successful there are often drug issues involved (sad, but true).

 

I'll still admit I'm frustrated that the part youngest didn't inherit was the drive to do better academically whether he likes a subject or not... but I really do think it's genetics more than upbringing.

 

 

 

I am blessed with three kids who are not very internally driven.  Maybe I have caused this?  They've all had periods of motivation and periods, sometimes rather long and worrying ones, of really lacking motivation-for anything.  One of the three stands out as clearly more internally driven though and I honestly wonder if there is some factor beyond our control in the other two.  

 

I'm going with 8's answer...

 

I've seen motivated students from some very bad home situations.  I've seen some very lazy (or worse) students from some very good home situations.

 

Peers have a factor too, but it's not "the" factor.

[regentrude]

I am blessed with three kids who are not very internally driven.  Maybe I have caused this?  They've all had periods of motivation and periods, sometimes rather long and worrying ones, of really lacking motivation-for anything.  One of the three stands out as clearly more internally driven though and I honestly wonder if there is some factor beyond our control in the other two.  

 

I have one who is extremely driven and ambitious, and another who is a laid back minimalist.

The differences have been noticeable since toddlerhood, so I am fairly certain it's not my parenting that caused them.

It is, however, possible to work with the less driven students and to motivate them  so that they are not doomed to remain underachievers; that's where parental influence and schooling choices will play a role.

 

[Korrale]

Her final takeaway from her experiences she wrote about in the Tiger Mom book was "when Chinese parenting works, it's the best. When it doesn't, it's a fiasco."

 

I actually liked it a lot more than I thought I would. The book itself was very different from what the press was. I'm a bit interested to read the new book, too.

I really liked her book too. It wasn't at all what I expected from the articles I had read prior to it. Especially how the birthday was misrepresented. I later read articles from her children that explained that their monster wasn't cold. She was quite affectionate. She just pushed them to try their best. And Lulu admitted that the card was junk. She just scribbled a smiley face on the card prior to going out to dinner. There was no thought or caring put into it at all.

[8filltheheart]

I really liked her book too. It wasn't at all what I expected from the articles I had read prior to it. Especially how the birthday was misrepresented. I later read articles from her children that explained that their monster wasn't cold. She was quite affectionate. She just pushed them to try their best. And Lulu admitted that the card was junk. She just scribbled a smiley face on the card prior to going out to dinner. There was no thought or caring put into it at all.

That was really, really not nice. ;). I was drinking coffee when I read that. Considering the context of this discussion that is the funniest autocorrect I have ever seen.

[swellmomma]

My parents were much like Chua in expectations and felt that me choosing to work in childcare was beneath my status and downright unsuccessful.  My siblings both went into higher paying professions which allowed for the toys and accumulation of prestige.  My folks started to realize when I was 35 and had been in the same field for 24 years that I was successful despite the lower pay cheque.  They still need reminding from time to time but are improving.  I would say I have grit, drive, determination etc but I channel it in areas other than those that lead to higher paying jobs because I love the field I am in.

[momma2three]

I think homeschoolers are actually good candidates to demonstrate the traits discussed--a sense of superiority, combined with insecurity and self discipline. But I think there is a great deal of variation in how different families define success.

 

That was actually my first thought when I read the OP!  "Sounds like homeschoolers!"  LOL

 

I had a bunch to say in my previous post, but then got called away so I just hit submit.  And now I've forgotten most of it.  Oh well.

[Korrale]

That was really, really not nice. ;). I was drinking coffee when I read that. Considering the context of this discussion that is the funniest autocorrect I have ever seen.

Oopsy daisy.

[MBM]

You know I realize as I'm reading everyone's responses that I'm influenced by the fact that I know so many people who have really floundered in adolescence and young adulthood. I have this idea that their struggles have been caused by poor guidance and mentoring by their parents, so I want to avoid that situation with my own kids by making sure they have a good work ethic, sensible and achievable long term plans, and practical ideas about life and their future. Hence my reluctance to give my kids a total free rein when they are setting their early work habits, and other stuff (like quitting things abruptly when they are frustrated, etc.)

 

So my question to you all, very sincerely asked, is this: Have you faced a situation where your child's interest-led progress stalled, where they resisted working, or where they wanted to pursue something you really thought was ill-advised? And if so, how did you handle it?

 

We established flexible schedules for our kids from a young age. I used separate index cards for the 3-5 things they had to do in the morning, after school and before bedtime and posted them on the refrigerator. Then they would check their cards to be sure they did everything. (I have no energy for henpecking.) As long as they felt it was fair and doable, and as long as it entailed only a few things, it worked out well and became an ingrained habit. Even to this day, they all tend to follow this schedule. Humans are naturally creatures of habit, for better or for worse.

 

Regarding your question, yes!, my childrens' interests have all stalled at times. Some interests seem gone forever. As they've matured, they've come back to some and even tried a few new ones. They're figuring out what they truly do like which is not always a linear process. It can be quite messy at times.

 

IMO, adolescence and young adulthood are still periods of exploration -- keeping some interests while discarding others. At different ages my kids all began to show genuine glimmers of interest in certain subjects and activities that suited them. I looked for their flow experiences, when they got lost in activities and lost track of time (excluding video games). Once they found those interests, I then looked for ways to expand them or develop them more fully.

 

Adolescents and young adults also experience a period of tremendous change in their brains, change that functions to help them grow up, move prudently into unfamiliar territory and that helps them separate and connect. Too often adults fail to question what they themselves believe to be true about this stage. They could be more influential if they understood better their child's development. The adult response to the teen's behavior is paramount. Dan Siegel has written about this stage of development in his book Brainstorm. I don't entirely like the way he writes or agree 100% with everything he says but he does offer an explanation that makes sense.

 

As for ill-advised pursuits, are you talking about video games? And boys?

[SarahW]

Well, wow, I posted the article not intending anything re: the Tiger Mom.

 

I just thought it was an interesting explanation to answer the "OMG! The Asians are so much better at math than us!!! whhhyyyyy!!!!?" exclamations that seem to pop up in the media.

 

 And maybe I should unpack why immigrants want their kids to have well-paying jobs. Foreigners, especially non-western ones, think all Americans live in Desperate Housewives suburbia. Upon coming to America they realize that isn't true, but they still have the idea that "true" Americans will live in McMansions with a couple new cars. They want their kids to be true Americans, so they want them to have careers that will make them true Americans. It's not just about the money, it's about achieving a dream.

 

There are downsides, for sure, to the situation the article talks about. But to be surrounded by a society that expects high achievement would, I think, go a long ways towards helping that happen.

[8filltheheart]

Well, wow, I posted the article not intending anything re: the Tiger Mom.

 

I just thought it was an interesting explanation to answer the "OMG! The Asians are so much better at math than us!!! whhhyyyyy!!!!?" exclamations that seem to pop up in the media.

 

 And maybe I should unpack why immigrants want their kids to have well-paying jobs. Foreigners, especially non-western ones, think all Americans live in Desperate Housewives suburbia. Upon coming to America they realize that isn't true, but they still have the idea that "true" Americans will live in McMansions with a couple new cars. They want their kids to be true Americans, so they want them to have careers that will make them true Americans. It's not just about the money, it's about achieving a dream.

 

There are downsides, for sure, to the situation the article talks about. But to be surrounded by a society that expects high achievement would, I think, go a long ways towards helping that happen.

 

But, are they?  (re: the bolded)   Maybe society at large but that is a ridiculous comparison.   There are huge sections of our society that have no concept of educational opportunities or self-responsibility or non-government dependence.

 

Amg those that value education and self-reliance, is there a more equivalent correlation?   Not ALL Asians are math gurus any more than all students of other cultures are inferior to Asians.

 

ETA:  The other situation is that many Americans don't want uniform levels of high expectations as evidenced by the recent discussions surrounding alg 2.

[Catherine]

I think high expectations are exactly what Amy Chua has for her children, and writes about in her first book. It's one reason I identified with some of what she said in that book-I have high expectations as well, but I think I've tempered them with some compassion for my real children's real challenges. There is a difference between having high expectations for effort, and high expectations for performance. I don't expect them to perform perfectly, but since reading the book I've become more aware of my own tendency to want to praise them when they really haven't done anything praiseworthy (like just finishing a chore, for example). I have to be careful to talk to my kids in a way that is honest but compassionate at the same time.

 

But 8, I think it IS valid to compare the performance of one country, or one culture, to another-why wouldn't it be? There are so many Americans who are ready to attribute the Asian dominance on international tests, particularly math, to genetic factors!! That is absolutely ridiculous. I think we all benefit when there is a real conversation, here but especially in the culture at large, that is about educational outcomes as a whole for the country. Look at the American dominance in Nobel prizes, for example. That is despite our poor performance on international tests. What does that mean? Certainly, it first means that whatever those international tests measure, they are not giving a valid picture of overall academic or scientific understanding\knowledge\performance.

 

I agree with Korrale says about the first book. I started it planning to condemn her and hate it and didn't finish that way at all. I'm certainly different from her, but it was a thought-provoking read. I'd really encourage those of you who've condemned it, and her without reading it, to give it a chance. The news articles are really sensational and represent it poorly.

[8filltheheart]

I think high expectations are exactly what Amy Chua has for her children, and writes about in her first book. It's one reason I identified with some of what she said in that book-I have high expectations as well, but I think I've tempered them with some compassion for my real children's real challenges. There is a difference between having high expectations for effort, and high expectations for performance. I don't expect them to perform perfectly, but since reading the book I've become more aware of my own tendency to want to praise them when they really haven't done anything praiseworthy (like just finishing a chore, for example). I have to be careful to talk to my kids in a way that is honest but compassionate at the same time.

 

But 8, I think it IS valid to compare the performance of one country, or one culture, to another-why wouldn't it be? There are so many Americans who are ready to attribute the Asian dominance on international tests, particularly math, to genetic factors!! That is absolutely ridiculous. I think we all benefit when there is a real conversation, here but especially in the culture at large, that is about educational outcomes as a whole for the country. Look at the American dominance in Nobel prizes, for example. That is despite our poor performance on international tests. What does that mean? Certainly, it first means that whatever those international tests measure, they are not giving a valid picture of overall academic or scientific understanding\knowledge\performance.

 

I agree with Korrale says about the first book. I started it planning to condemn her and hate it and didn't finish that way at all. I'm certainly different from her, but it was a thought-provoking read. I'd really encourage those of you who've condemned it, and her without reading it, to give it a chance. The news articles are really sensational and represent it poorly.

I think I was unclear in my post. My reference point is within the US, not other countries. And then move forward more than 1 generation. Are those distinctions still there? I think the real distinctions don't exist b/c of Tiger Moms. I think long lasting real distinctions exist amg people who value education for education and seek high levels of education b/c learning is admirable.

 

Eta: my multitasking today is not going well! I meant to say that our culture at large is sick. What does it value? Where are the energies of the populace focused? This is not an educational issue. It isn't Chinese vs generic American values. It is between cultures that have specific values and those that don't embrace the same ones. It also isn't a matter of having specific values and following a prescripted path and landing in the same outcomes.

 

Why are there so many Nobel prize winners? Bc there are definite pockets of highly educated people. A better question for Americans is why are there only pockets.

[LibraryLover]

I have highly motivated & 'successful'  (dean's list, honor roll, full- ride scholarships etc) children who are all pursing interests that do not pay well.  Somewhere dh and I went horribly wrong. We said STEM and they said "Hell, no."   (I still hold out some hope for our youngest, but I am not holding my breath.)  ;)

[creekland]

 There are so many Americans who are ready to attribute the Asian dominance on international tests, particularly math, to genetic factors!! That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Uh, wait a minute.  I know for a fact I saw Stephen Colbert tell this as a truth on the Colbert Report and now you're telling me it's not true?  ;)

 

Why are there so many Nobel prize winners? Bc there are definite pockets of highly educated people. A better question for Americans is why are there only pockets.

 

My best guess is because most Americans have no desire to be that highly educated in anything academic.  They don't mind Hollywood knowledge, or sports knowledge, but the specifics of Chemistry?  Most yawn.  They want to have the toys from new innovations - or medical advances - or whatever, but they don't care to actually learn the info to produce it.

 

I'm also convinced that there IS a genetic component to understanding anything academic at that level (art/music included in "academic").  I just don't think it runs down racial lines.  I believe there are some who are truly gifted with the ability to comprehend many in depth things, and others who simply can't.  Most, of course, fall in the middle just like with any bell curve.

[creekland]

I have highly motivated & 'successful'  (dean's list, honor roll, full- ride scholarships etc) children who are all pursing interests that do not pay well.  Somewhere dh and I went horribly wrong. We said STEM and they said "Hell, no."   (I still hold out some hope for our youngest, but I am not holding my breath.)  ;)

 

Engineering x Physics here - and NOT into anything medical + a real dislike for snakes.

 

What did we produce?

 

Wannabes for:

 

Accountant

Doctor

Marine Biologist who wants a house (or tent) full of snakes.

 

I'm still scratching my head with how that works genetically.  NONE of them had any interest in engineering or physics...

 

[regentrude]

Engineering x Physics here - and NOT into anything medical + a real dislike for snakes.

 

What did we produce?

 

Wannabes for:

 

Accountant

Doctor

Marine Biologist who wants a house (or tent) full of snakes.

 

I'm still scratching my head with how that works genetically.  NONE of them had any interest in engineering or physics...

 

My opera singer and architect parents have produced a physicist and an anesthesiologist. Go figure.

Somehow I don't think genetics works quite this easily...

[8filltheheart]

Uh, wait a minute.  I know for a fact I saw Stephen Colbert tell this as a truth on the Colbert Report and now you're telling me it's not true?  ;)

 

 

My best guess is because most Americans have no desire to be that highly educated in anything academic.  They don't mind Hollywood knowledge, or sports knowledge, but the specifics of Chemistry?  Most yawn.  They want to have the toys from new innovations - or medical advances - or whatever, but they don't care to actually learn the info to produce it.

 

I'm also convinced that there IS a genetic component to understanding anything academic at that level (art/music included in "academic").  I just don't think it runs down racial lines.  I believe there are some who are truly gifted with the ability to comprehend many in depth things, and others who simply can't.  Most, of course, fall in the middle just like with any bell curve.

 

Exactly.   The main illness is that Americans are intellectually lazy and simply want to be entertained.

 

I don't know about the genetics part.      I do believe that there is a wide variance in individual ability that is inherent at birth.   But, how that plays out.....I don't think it is simple.

[creekland]

My opera singer and architect parents have produced a physicist and an anesthesiologist. Go figure.

Somehow I don't think genetics works quite this easily...

 

Both of my parents are music people/teachers (instrumental).  I ended up physics/math and my sister?  She still hasn't found her spot. 

 

It is a mystery as to why certain paths/niches appeal to individuals. 

 

[TKDmom]

I thought this article was totally fascinating. And I'll admit it I'm a Mormon, so I feel a little like preening my feathers when I see articles like this. ;) (how's that for a superiority complex?)

 

I can totally see how these factors work in LDS culture, and how you end up with the paradox of "superiority" and insecurity. I hesitate to call it superiority, because it's more of a recognition that we have great potential as God's children (all of us--not just those of our faith). And when you see how perfect you "could or "should" be, there's also a recognition of how far you are from that perfection--how much you fall short on a daily basis.

 

 

Some random thoughts that come to mind.

Do most white Americans have a sense of pride in their heritage, their ancestry? Do you? I don't mean believing in white supremacy, but just "I come from strong, hard working, industrious people".

Are we supposed to instill a sense of inferiority in our kids? (I mean themselves, not their culture) or is this a byproduct of expecting excellence and mastery?

 

I never even thought of having a sense of pride in my heritage. Maybe my family has too many crazy people and alcoholics to even think that way. ;) But since I read your question, I thought about how many people in our church talk about "our pioneer heritage". Personally, I don't have any pioneer heritage, but my religious community does, and there's a lot of value and emphasis placed on traits that the pioneers had--economy, thrift, perseverance, hard work, etc. Maybe it helps give us a sense of who we are how we should behave.

 

To answer your second question, I think it should be a byproduct of high expectations. I can't imagine setting out to give my kids an inferiority complex. As mom's we could do that waay too well, and end up just incapacitating our kids with a sense of inferiority.

 

I can see areas where my kids knew they could have done better, and they feel bad when they realized how much they messed up. I haven't gotten them there with academics, but there have definitely been life lessons they have learned when they fall way short of the expectations I have for them.

[LibraryLover]

Exactly.   The main illness is that Americans are intellectually lazy and simply want to be entertained.

 

 

 

Gosh, I hate to jump in on this. ;)  Seriously.

 

 

In my world, crazy hard-working Goodle-Pixar-Medical-Engineering achieving young people abound.  Slacker kids/adults are few and far between. Even the kids wanting jobs in education, psychology, other social sciences are working hard to make it happen.

[creekland]

 

 

In my world, crazy hard-working Goodle-Pixar-Medical-Engineering achieving young people abound.  Slacker kids/adults are few and far between. Even the kids wanting jobs in education, psychology, other social sciences are working hard to make it happen.

 

I am glad to know those circles exist (seriously).  It is definitely not the norm in the average public high school where I work.  It's super common there for peers to ask my son why he bothers to get As - does he not know that Cs also pass the class?  It's common for kids to totally stop working at the first hint of needing to think and remarking to each other, "why bother?  The teacher will go over it tomorrow."  It's common for kids - knowing homework is often graded on completion rather than correctness - to write down something not even related to the question because they didn't look at the question when "doing their homework."

 

There are achievers who try, but they certainly aren't the norm or even close to it.  In a class of 300+ there may be 10 or so (and I'm NOT talking about high stats, but rather, kids who truly give their best at trying).

 

 

So where one family might expect it to look pushy and confrontational - I'm thinking Tiger Mom here -. because that's how good parents do 'helping child learn', other families expect it to happen, on an individual timetable and with a sense of unfolding rather than pushing, because that's how you 'help child learn'. But maybe we're all doing the same thing in  the end.

...

 

Take any kid raised in a highly literate and numerate home, supported by parents to achieve a goal and minus health issues/mental health issues/tragedy - you probably get a kid who 'does well', no matter whether Mom pushed or applauded.

 

The differences between those kids and the ones who grow up without those initial and continuing family benefits is probably much larger, more significant and more deserving of attention.

 

I imagine social capital is pretty important when it comes to being the brightest star. So you'd expect to see socio economic differences. It's harder to build effective social capital for your children when you're poor.

 

So maybe all these books - for and against - are just one massive distraction from the actual issues of underperformance.

 

You do see differences - or at least - I do.  There are some parents who really don't care about education and teach their offspring to do the same.  They are often in lower paying jobs, but not always as we're rural and rural still has some opportunities without needing higher education.  Some kids/parents move right into the family business and only see high school as a required pain in the rear.  Others are content living off the system - and will freely tell you so.  In a class of 300+ there are probably 20 - 30 of these.

 

Sometimes though, it is those who are lower income who try to push their kids into doing better as they've seen the difference an education can make.

 

In the end, pushing only goes so far without causing mental issues.  True drive like true talent has to come from within.  The difference is drive can be changed (sometimes) when a student sees a goal.  IME, some pushing is good - kids do need to be guided in life - esp to do things they don't necessarily want to do (see my answer to the above quote - more pushing from somewhere would definitely help).  Tiger mom pushing goes too far if one doesn't have the "right" offspring for it.

[momma2three]

Gosh, I hate to jump in on this. ;)  Seriously.

 

I don't know what circles you move in, but I have to say that even my kid who wants to do Constitutional Law is seen as a slacker (poorly paid).

 

In my world, crazy hard-working Goodle-Pixar-Medical-Engineering achieving young people abound.  Slacker kids/adults are few and far between. Even the kids wanting jobs in education, psychology, other social sciences are working hard to make it happen.

 

Can I ask if your circle has high proportions of the cultural groups that the author is talking about?  Because I think the point of the book (which I haven't read) is that there are tiny subcultures within larger US society where this is true.  But for most people, it is not.

[8filltheheart]

Gosh, I hate to jump in on this. ;) Seriously.

 

I don't know what circles you move in, but I have to say that even my kid who wants to do Constitutional Law is seen as a slacker (poorly paid).

 

In my world, crazy hard-working Goodle-Pixar-Medical-Engineering achieving young people abound. Slacker kids/adults are few and far between. Even the kids wanting jobs in education, psychology, other social sciences are working hard to make it happen.

It doesn't even require "circles." Apparently you haven't read the statistics on the percentage of students that admit to cheating or the percentage of students placing into remedial courses. I believe the stat for cheating is upward of 75% and placing into remedial courses (even students that supposedly were taking honors courses) is something like 30% at 4 yr universities and well over 50% at CCs.

[Catherine]

I think most of us here, with the exception of Creekland, who works in a not-top-stat public high school, are fairly insulated from the very large group of students out there who are cheating and underperforming. I see it in my nephew, a young adult who is kind of "ours" now. He told me about taking a course for someone he knew. It was an online lit course she needed in order to finish her nursing degree and she paid him to do it. When I expressed some outrage about this, his response was, (read with a shocked tone), "But I really needed the money!". The idea of academic integrity, or ANY kind of integrity, is really quite foreign to some people.

 

"Pushing" is what has developed to name the phenomenon of making kids work. I'm not sure I would call it that, exactly. It's instilling perseverance, work ethic, confidence. It happens when kids are fairly young, under 13, as I think we've agreed. But there are so many ways to make this happen. My kids all took music lessons, starting around age 5, with the suzuki method. Our program has a robust parent training component, which means, for those not familiar with suzuki, teaching the parents how to be home teachers to their students. Reading Shiniki Suzuki's book, Nurtured By Love, I was introduced to the idea that making kids work hard is an important goal, has benefits that carry over, and does not have to be ugly, unpleasant, or forced. Making work fun, when we first started, was really important, and we continue to be a kind of "whistle while you work" family.

 

People like Amy Chua have carried it beyond what most of us consider acceptable, though I maintain that if you actually read her first book, you'll agree that we all share some important similarities with her. It's all about instilling work ethic, perseverance, confidence, about not sugar-coating what we say to our kids, and having fun as a family, as opposed to "fun" being only something one does with peers.

[Matryoshka]

Can I ask if your circle has high proportions of the cultural groups that the author is talking about?  Because I think the point of the book (which I haven't read) is that there are tiny subcultures within larger US society where this is true.  But for most people, it is not.

 

Not LibraryLover, but I think we live in the same state, and I see the same thing she does.  I can only speak for my particular district, but yes, we do have a high proportion of those groups.  My dds are at the high school, and I think it's close to 20% Asian (both Chinese and Indian), and the honors classes are almost half.  My brother works at the school one town over, and it's the same thing.  These are very driven schools.  It's not "a C is good enough, why do you want A's?"  It's "omg, my life is over because I got a B!" Or the "I failed!" when they got a B-. My kids are in all honors classes, but they do get some Bs.   I'm not seeing a lot of grade inflation, honestly.  There is also a ton of afterschooling, especially in math.  Seems like a lot of the kids are actually working 1-2 years ahead at home (or at the local Russian math school)  to make easy As in math.

 

I was talking about this with some people from town, some of who have kids in the high school, others whose kids are now in college, and they said that some colleges add .3 to the GPA of the kids from our school because they know its reputation.  But I think the non-honors classes are like a whole different school - one of the kids who is in the high school now switched to honors English because "he wanted to be in a class with kids who cared." 

[leeannpal]

Both of my parents are music people/teachers (instrumental).  I ended up physics/math and my sister?  She still hasn't found her spot. 

 

It is a mystery as to why certain paths/niches appeal to individuals. 

 

 This is my experience as well. I have 2 sisters, and parents that did not push us at all. My youngest sister is a doctor. She has been entirely self-motivated all her life. Ironically, although she is very financially successful, she hates her job and now wishes she had not become a doctor. I became a teacher and have worked at private schools for many years primarily so that my daughter would not have to go to public school. Although she is homeschooled now, I enjoy teaching in private schools because I can actually teach-not teach to the test. However, I would be much more financially successful if I went the public school teaching route.

 

I think defining success is important. I love my job and feel fulfilled. My sister, who is much more successful than I am according the world, hates her job and often depressed.My family worries that she is going to die early of stress related illnesses. So who is actually successful? My hope for my daughter is that she find a career that affords her a decent lifestyle and one she has a passion for. That would be success to me.

[creekland]

I think most of us here, with the exception of Creekland, who works in a not-top-stat public high school, are fairly insulated from the very large group of students out there who are cheating and underperforming. I see it in my nephew, a young adult who is kind of "ours" now. He told me about taking a course for someone he knew. It was an online lit course she needed in order to finish her nursing degree and she paid him to do it. When I expressed some outrage about this, his response was, (read with a shocked tone), "But I really needed the money!". The idea of academic integrity, or ANY kind of integrity, is really quite foreign to some people.

 

 

I know it's quite easy for humans to assume the world they are in is the only world out there.  I did it myself assuming all public schools would be like the one I went to for high school. 

 

I'm glad pockets of higher interest/education exist because I, too, like reaping the rewards from the discoveries of others... There are oodles of inventions I use daily that I couldn't begin to reproduce on my own if I had to, but I love them.  I also enjoy musicals, nice artwork, medical advances, weather forecasting, and living in a country where there's abundant food and shelter.  All of those are around in abundance because of those who innovate to either make new things or make old things "better."

 

But it's not the majority who discover and innovate such major items/advances.

 

If we solely look at college confidential or the schools that produce the majority of posters on there one would wonder why the US has any issues at all academically.

 

But most folks get on there and go, "wow, am I overclassed!  Are these kids for real?"

 

There are some schools who have more than their share of Top 1% students, but many have less (when using national percentages).  At my school there should be 3-4 in every class of 300+.  It's far more common that we get 0 - 2.  I've never even seen 3-4 in my 15 years of being there.  I've seen plenty of years with 0 and only a couple with 2.

 

Cheating outside of the classroom itself is very common - and pretty much accepted as common - in the school where I work.  Very often one student will do homework and several others will copy off him/her before class.  Our kids tend to have really good copying skills.  Thinking skills?  Even an interest in developing thinking skills?  Not so much.

 

When I asked the English teachers why they devote weeks of classroom time to have kids research and write papers in class (rather than as homework) I was told it was because most kids won't actually research/write the papers themselves if not done in class.  They'll get someone else to do it for them from the internet or otherwise.

 

And... the kids simply do not care to do better.  I mentioned the rough numbers of high and very low.  The rest are in that "will graduate and get by" - with many even heading off to college or post high school education of some sort - but they don't really CARE about an education or learning anything.  They do what they need to in order to get a grade or degree, but with no real desire to learn much in the process.  (Memorize for a test, then forget afterward.)  Hollywood or sports, on the other hand, THAT'S interesting and worthy of brain cell usage.

[8filltheheart]

Creekland,

 

It felt weird to like your post b/c obviously the content is not "likeable" but it certainly is the truth.   We are isolated in the fact that my kids are expected to perform to our family's standards and integrity,  but our "bubble" is most definitely not the country at large.   My suburbia lifestyle is far removed from the slums.    It doesn't take "living there" to know that our lifestyle is not representative of society.

 

American excellence is not universally representative across the country.   Our world standing is falling.   Our individual level of independence is falling, etc, etc.  

 

Ask the avg American about gov't policies, elected officials, international issues, etc and the answers are more likely to be wrong than correct.   Ask about some TV show, sports, musician and the answer is more likely to be correct (except in abnormal American families like mine :001_rolleyes:  )  

[Wildiris]

Not wanting to delve into what is wrong with the current academic landscape, i did skim the article and what I found rang true.

 

What drives success: "The first is a superiority complex — a deep-seated belief in their exceptionality. The second appears to be the opposite — insecurity, a feeling that you or what you’ve done is not good enough. The third is impulse control."

 

From my personal experience, the above is a true statement. The above describe my husband and oldest daughter. These personality traits make them very driven people. The thought of success as others might describe what they achieve is more of an after thought. The mind set is such that they don't strive to be the best, they are the best getting better.