Social etiquette and the socially "delayed" child.

[AimeeM]

This is kind of a spin off of the birthday party thread.

 

DS4 is what I classify as "socially delayed"; he has no cognitive issues, but was isolated for several years due to serious medical problems. At first, coming from relative isolation, he was scared of everyone.... now we have the opposite problem. I think we may have went too far in trying to help him see that people are good, people are nice, etc. Now he believes that everyone is his friend, he loves everyone, and that everyone loves HIM :p

 

First world problems, I know.

 

.... but, this HAS led to problems. If he were to see, say, a birthday party at a park, he would sincerely not understand why he couldn't participate. This isn't manipulation on his part, because I see it daily in the way he interacts with others. He is very much a "a stranger is just a friend I haven't met yet" kind of guy. He hugs random people at the grocery store, he wants to play with everyone at the park, etc. When I try to explain "social etiquette" to him, I can see it going straight over his head. If I were to say "that is another child's party with his own friends", I know his response already, because I've heard it - "but I *am* his friend - see watch!", and off he would go to "make friends". Part of this is desperation to be involved. While he is 4.5 years old, cognitively above average in the academic arena, etc, he is the size of the average 2 year old. This has led to some problems in social settings - children his age see him as a "baby" and do not allow him to participate, and Nico doesn't understand why (because he recognizes children about his age, even though they are "bigger" than him - he has no conceptual understanding of his own size). The other children will alternately make fun of him, or insist that he's "too young" to play with them - the result is that he goes overboard to try and involve himself; he can be a pushover, to put it mildly.

 

It can be heartbreaking to watch, and we've had issues outside of just playing with other children (like toddler rides at the fair; he SEES kids his age riding, but HE doesn't meet the height requirement, and doesn't understand that he is "smaller" than the other children his age). I admire the way he deals with these things - when this happened at the train ride at a local fair, he sobbed quietly in my shoulder, but didn't throw a tantrum.

 

But it's hard. For all of us.

 

I think, maybe, I'm using the wrong words to explain these things to him. He's a very concrete thinker, in general. He is very literal. If you ask him, while he has on his pirate outfit, if he is a pirate, he will say (with some negative inflection), "no! I'm just Nico!". If I tell him he's handsome, or smart, or strong, he responds the same way.

 

I need to approach explaining social etiquette in a way conducive to *how* he thinks, and I haven't figured it out yet.

 

Are there books? Shows? He loves Daniel Tiger and frequently goes into musical mode when he wants something (if someone is sad, he sings to them the "I like you" song from the show, for example; sometimes our day is very much like a musical, lol). He does seem to respond better to learning things from books or shows, than he does from "just being told".

 

I don't want him labeled as a brat. He isn't. He's a great kid.

[redsquirrel]

If he tends towards the literal, and many 4 year olds do, then keep the explanations to the factual.

 

We can't attend that party because we haven't been invited. It is rude to just join in. That's how parties work.  And then you have to stop him gently.

 

We don't hug people we don't know well. We certainly don't hug people we meet in stores. It is rude. People generally don't like those they don't know very well touching them. And then you have to calmly stop him.

 

He is having a difficult time with boundaries and so you have to set them, with love, until he can do it himself. He shouldn't be shamed or made to feel badly, just have it explained. Heck, some grown ups don't get it, so it is really hard for a little one. But he does need consistent explanation and help with 'rules'.

 

It is difficult when a child is smaller than his peers. My boys are petite, especially my oldest. When he was four and five he was certainly mistaken for a two and three year old with good reason. I was lucky enough in that because he was my oldest I didn't go to places like fairs with rides where height might be an issue. So, I don't know what to say.

 

But, I have seen lots of parents talking kids through social situations/cues/boundaries and not thought twice about it. Maybe his small size might even give you a bit of time in making those sorts of explainations.

 

I know lots of kids his age who might answer with a 'no I'm whatever' when asked if he were a pirate. Some are more literal and some (I think) just have an excellent sense of humor. I can't really tell the difference at that age.  It does sound a little immature. I think of two and a half year olds saying stuff like that, but I can't say if he is out of the typical range of such a thing. It doesn't surprise me, that he is doing it as his age.

[AimeeM]

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If he tends towards the literal, and many 4 year olds do, then keep the explanations to the factual.

 

We can't attend that party because we haven't been invited. It is rude to just join in. That's how parties work.  And then you have to stop him gently. That's exactly what we do. Then I have to explain what "invited" means, lol.

 

We don't hug people we don't know well. We certainly don't hug people we meet in stores. It is rude. People generally don't like those they don't know very well touching them. And then you have to calmly stop him. That might be part of the problem. I'm not sure if it's a geographic thing or what, but people love it when he hugs them. When we went to the hospital billing department, to discuss being over billed on his surgery, he ran to the billing lady assigned to us, hugged her, said "hi", and she turned to mush, hitched him on her hip, and started cooing. It's difficult to explain to him *why* we can't hug people, when everyone who has been on the receiving end seems to enjoy it (although I agree with you i a big way).

 

He is having a difficult time with boundaries and so you have to set them, with love, until he can do it himself. He shouldn't be shamed or made to feel badly, just have it explained. Heck, some grown ups don't get it, so it is really hard for a little one. But he does need consistent explanation and help with 'rules'. He does listen well to rules; maybe I need to stop explaining, for the time being, and just leave it at "no, we don't".

 

It is difficult when a child is smaller than his peers. My boys are petite, especially my oldest. When he was four and five he was certainly mistaken for a two and three year old with good reason. I was lucky enough in that because he was my oldest I didn't go to places like fairs with rides where height might be an issue. So, I don't know what to say.

 

But, I have seen lots of parents talking kids through social situations/cues/boundaries and not thought twice about it. Maybe his small size might even give you a bit of time in making those sorts of explainations.

 

I know lots of kids his age who might answer with a 'no I'm whatever' when asked if he were a pirate. Some are more literal and some (I think) just have an excellent sense of humor. I can't really tell the difference at that age.  It does sound a little immature. I think of two and a half year olds saying stuff like that, but I can't say if he is out of the typical range of such a thing. It doesn't surprise me, that he is doing it as his age. It only seems abnormal to me based on the age peers I've seen; all are fairly heavily involved in "acting" play. He does "act" like he is something/something else, but when you mention it, or call him something other than his name, he gets irritated (except a dog. I'm not sure why, but he enjoys pretending to be a puppy and has no problem being called a puppy when he's doing so... go figure); this leads to frustration from adults and other children when they DO try to involve him - there were many tense moments this holiday season over exactly that; a grandfather he rarely sees who dared call him handsome, or ask him if he wanted to be big and strong, etc. Poor grandpa.

 

 

[Alessandra]

Another thing to try at your ds's age is physical. Leave the park with the party, even though it means changing your plans. When I read what you said, I thought of myself being near a bag of potato chips. I need to physically separate myself from the bag; a logical explanation of why I should not eat them is no help, lol.

 

It may just be too hard for your ds to understand at this point, and that could be frustrating for him.

 

For hugging, I had a friend whose dc had that problem. My friend told people to turn themselves sideways when dc approached, so you could smile and be friendly, but have a shoulder forward. Hope that is clear. It worked much better than trying to push someone away. This was for a pre-teen, but you might want to think ahead.

[Guest submarines]

I can relate what it means to have a smaller than average child. Even without any medical issues it affects our perceptions, even if we are aware of this being a possibility.  Just from my personal experience, I have to be very careful not to be overprotective. I don't think I am, on an average day, but when he's sick, for example, I tend to go out of my way to "spoil" him so that he feels better. It is almost an instinct, I think. He's more of a baby to me, especially when he's sick or hurt, than his sisters, even the younger sister.

 

On the other hand, we tend to have higher expectations when children are cognitively advanced. So you are sort of in between the two competing drives, so to speak. :D

 

:grouphug: I think what you describe is pretty average"4".  A lot of it is his age, a lot of it is his personality.

 

DS9 was "shy" until about 4. At 4 he started talking to everyone he met. :lol: He became more selective at about 7.

 

DD 5.75, would still be surprised / negative if I ask her if she's a princess, when she's "in costume." She'll stare at me and state that she's just ....(her name.) She is a very typical and easy going 5 yo. Her sister was much more intense about that kind of stuff up until about 6yo, but she's a more intense kid anyway.

 

Keep doing what you are doing. He is not socially delayed--he's 4. Other children who are rude to him are also 4. They are all learning. I have a feeling that it will be hard for both of you, but he'll find his groove, and his true friends. :grouphug:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

This is kind of a spin off of the birthday party thread.

 

DS4 is what I classify as "socially delayed"; he has no cognitive issues, but was isolated for several years due to serious medical problems. At first, coming from relative isolation, he was scared of everyone.... now we have the opposite problem. I think we may have went too far in trying to help him see that people are good, people are nice, etc. Now he believes that everyone is his friend, he loves everyone, and that everyone loves HIM :p

 

First world problems, I know.

 

.... but, this HAS led to problems. If he were to see, say, a birthday party at a park, he would sincerely not understand why he couldn't participate. This isn't manipulation on his part, because I see it daily in the way he interacts with others. He is very much a "a stranger is just a friend I haven't met yet" kind of guy. He hugs random people at the grocery store, he wants to play with everyone at the park, etc. When I try to explain "social etiquette" to him, I can see it going straight over his head. If I were to say "that is another child's party with his own friends", I know his response already, because I've heard it - "but I *am* his friend - see watch!", and off he would go to "make friends". Part of this is desperation to be involved. While he is 4.5 years old, cognitively above average in the academic arena, etc, he is the size of the average 2 year old. This has led to some problems in social settings - children his age see him as a "baby" and do not allow him to participate, and Nico doesn't understand why (because he recognizes children about his age, even though they are "bigger" than him - he has no conceptual understanding of his own size). The other children will alternately make fun of him, or insist that he's "too young" to play with them - the result is that he goes overboard to try and involve himself; he can be a pushover, to put it mildly.

 

It can be heartbreaking to watch, and we've had issues outside of just playing with other children (like toddler rides at the fair; he SEES kids his age riding, but HE doesn't meet the height requirement, and doesn't understand that he is "smaller" than the other children his age). I admire the way he deals with these things - when this happened at the train ride at a local fair, he sobbed quietly in my shoulder, but didn't throw a tantrum.

 

But it's hard. For all of us.

 

I think, maybe, I'm using the wrong words to explain these things to him. He's a very concrete thinker, in general. He is very literal. If you ask him, while he has on his pirate outfit, if he is a pirate, he will say (with some negative inflection), "no! I'm just Nico!". If I tell him he's handsome, or smart, or strong, he responds the same way.

 

I need to approach explaining social etiquette in a way conducive to *how* he thinks, and I haven't figured it out yet.

 

Are there books? Shows? He loves Daniel Tiger and frequently goes into musical mode when he wants something (if someone is sad, he sings to them the "I like you" song from the show, for example; sometimes our day is very much like a musical, lol). He does seem to respond better to learning things from books or shows, than he does from "just being told".

 

I don't want him labeled as a brat. He isn't. He's a great kid.

I think you're over-analyzing this.

 

Your son not "socially delayed." He's four years old.

 

I'm not sure what kind of behavior you'd expect from him. He sounds like a sweet, completely normal little kid to me.

 

Is his behavior perfect? Of course not. It's not supposed to be perfect. There are plenty of adults who have trouble in social situations, so please don't worry about your 4yo son. He's just fine. :)

[Whereneverever]

If you have big concerns, have you tried calling the Child Life Specialist at your children's hospital? Ours has AWESOME tips and advice for navigating these things.

[Ravin]

Your son's social development sounds normal for 4. I agree with what others have said about imposing matter of fact boundaries.

 

The size/age thing is frustrating. DD ran into that a lot at that age. "I'm 4, ask my mom if you don't believe me." will work with brighter peers. I would arrange play days where he won't be left out since playing with random kids on the playground is where the exclusion is likely to be most acute.

[Tammyla]

He sounds like a sweet 4y/old to me too.

 

On the friends and hugging issue, it can be confusing to little ones.  Distinguish between new and old friends for him and discuss the differences.  Friendship, family and acquaintances would also be a place to label and model how to interact. 

[AimeeM]

Really? That's comforting! He just seems immature compared to the other 4 year olds I run into (and that we are around on a regular basis).

Your son's social development sounds normal for 4. I agree with what others have said about imposing matter of fact boundaries.

The size/age thing is frustrating. DD ran into that a lot at that age. "I'm 4, ask my mom if you don't believe me." will work with brighter peers. I would arrange play days where he won't be left out since playing with random kids on the playground is where the exclusion is likely to be most acute.

 

[Farrar]

I'm with Catwoman.  While many 4 yos are more adept at social etiquette, just as many are as at sea with it in various ways as your ds, Aimee.  I can see that his size is probably an added issue that may exacerbate things going forward though.

 

I would focus on finding him a friend or two to be his "good" friends.  And just keep explaining and looking for the magic words or developmental moment that makes it just click.  I think you present this stuff as the rules of behavior and just keep modeling it.  Many 4 yos are slow to catch onto the nuances.

[redsquirrel]

my son has two friends who at 4 years old did NOT get pretending. One was able to start and claims my son taught him  how (he has a very sweet story about it) and the other, well, he can sort of fake it because it is what all his peers do, but I can tell he's not really into it. But now at 7 he tries, sort of.

 

 

[Guest submarines]

my son has two friends who at 4 years old did NOT get pretending. One was able to start and claims my son taught him  how (he has a very sweet story about it) and the other, well, he can sort of fake it because it is what all his peers do, but I can tell he's not really into it. But now at 7 he tries, sort of.

 

FWIW, DD5 who would call *me* out on calling her a "princess" or a pirate, or a dragon, when she is pretending is awesome at pretending and imaginative play. She pretends to be something or someone, alone all with DS, all.the. time. I think she wants *me* to be her reality check, so to speak. 

[kbutton]

 

 

 

Are there books? Shows? He loves Daniel Tiger and frequently goes into musical mode when he wants something (if someone is sad, he sings to them the "I like you" song from the show, for example; sometimes our day is very much like a musical, lol). He does seem to respond better to learning things from books or shows, than he does from "just being told".

 

I don't want him labeled as a brat. He isn't. He's a great kid.

 

You might consider seeing if your library has any Social Stories books. If you do talk to a Child Life specialist from the hospital, the specialist may be able to recommend specific Social Stories books or therapeutic books. I don't have specific titles to recommend, but these books are meant to help teach kids who grasp social situations through stories, videos, etc. or who grasp them by observation, learning rules, etc.

 

Keep notes if you are worried about his development. It won't hurt, and if you continue to see areas of concern later, it'll be easier to piece things together at that point. I think that 4 year olds are hard to pin down socially. He could be socially naïve rather than delayed (kids who go to the sitter or preschool really do have a different frame of mind). Your mommy radar may be picking up on subtle stuff that isn't evident yet. I have at least one twice-exceptional child and one that is doing well but is a bit of a puzzle. Sometimes being a little quirky ends up being diagnosable later down the road; that is certainly what happened with our older son.

 

I don't think the park thing is terribly atypical for his age or the "strangers are friends I haven't met yet" thing either. Issues with pretend play and being literal can be red flags (or being four). Being a rule follower can be a red flag (or mean he's simply obedient or a people pleaser). As he ages, you might try to figure out if he really understands the reasons for the rules--he may or may not be developmentally able to grasp that now. If he's been out of the loop so to speak, he has had fewer opportunities to figure this stuff out. If he continues to struggle as he ages, that's different. My MIL is nearly 70 and just learned over the holidays that rolling your eyes is not appropriate and is disrespectful most of the time. She doesn't understand why or care to understand why. She just thinks it's a stupid rule, and she might follow it if she determines that breaking it brings on adverse reactions. She won't be able to see into the past to realize that she's ticked people off with her behavior. She probably also won't be able to figure out that it can be okay to roll your eyes in response to a joke or something like that (mostly because she won't try to understand the differences if someone explains it to her). That's the kind of thing you want to watch for, and it's probably not evident at four even if some of other kids are already there (or appear to be grasping this stuff).

[GSOchristie]

My four year old is small, no medical problems, but he is still wearing some 2T, mostly 3T clothes to give you an idea of his size.  We had a problem for a while with people his age (specifically two little boys that are family friends) calling him a baby, not to be ugly, just to them he looked like a baby.  We just taught him to say, "I'm not a baby, I'm three (or four)."  That was enough most of the time.  My boys have all been everyone's friend, especially my middle, who is a pleaser.  I don't think that's too socially atypical.  My almost three year old dd says the "No, I'm Piper Livvie" when asked if she's whatever costume she's wearing, but my boys didn't do that.  So again, I'm not sure that's not normal.  We also have the height issue with any rides, my oldest is gigantic and can ride most adult rides at 7.  My little two are like little elves, so they don't get to participate as much.  But at least they don't get to participate together since they're only a year and a half apart :).

[dbmamaz]

First children and girls are generally socially precocious compared to later children and boys.  He definitely sounds within the range of normal to me.  Also, sometimes we just struggle because our kids personalities are very different than ours.  I try to be aware if what my kid is doing is really 'wrong' or just not what I would do.  

[ElizabethB]

Your son's social development sounds normal for 4. I agree with what others have said about imposing matter of fact boundaries.

 

The size/age thing is frustrating. DD ran into that a lot at that age. "I'm 4, ask my mom if you don't believe me." will work with brighter peers. I would arrange play days where he won't be left out since playing with random kids on the playground is where the exclusion is likely to be most acute.

My daughter is short for her age. For a while at the park her standard spiel changed from, "Hi, I'm _____, do you want to play," to "Hi, I'm _____, I'm 4, do you want to play?" From age 4 - 6 or 7, I think, she added her age for kids she hadn't met that seemed about her age or a bit older.

[Paige]

It sounds pretty normal to me. Teaching social rules and that not everyone is a friend is important but it can also be very painful if you have a sensitive child. It's ok to let him experience pain and support him through it. I understand that you don't want to squish his joy and enthusiasm, but some hard lessons are necessary to have a more full life with less pain later on.

 

So, tell him that the other kids are not his friends and he cannot give them hugs or assume he can jump into their play. He may cry and not get it. I'd say to my own DS, that it's ok, it's their loss, and he doesn't have to understand why he just needs to understand what is. I wouldn't let my DD go hug every stranger, even if they like it, because it is not showing good personal boundaries and we don't want her getting the wrong kind of attention now or later. My DDs were quite small and they had to learn to use their voice and develop some assertiveness or accept that they would be excluded because people would naturally assume they were too little.

 

I don't think that he is behind or that you are explaining things inadequately, but sometimes it takes time for it to sink in. He may hear you, but not believe you or maybe he wants to learn the hard way. Or maybe he just needs more time.