Another school shooting in Colorado

[poppy]

He got his gun at a store in a state with universal background checks. I thought the argument was "tougher gun control laws and expanded background checks work." Colorado already has them.

 

Nope, that stuff is needed, but it's not good enough. Obviously guns for recreation = dead kids.   (194 additional kids dead since Newtown as well: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/children-killed-guns-newtown-anniversary). 

[ThisIsTheDay]

The shooter appeared to be attempting murder-suicide.  Aside from the one person he shot, he appeared to just fire random shots down hallways.  Then he very ineffectively set off Molotov cocktails. Then he shot himself.  The armed guard doesn't appear to be a factor at all.

The problem isn't that there weren't more armed people to stop him, the problem is that HE was armed.

 

 

You are incorrect in your assumption.  The armed sheriff's deputy does indeed appear to be a factor, according to Sheriff Grayson Robinson.  He specifically said in yesterday's news conference that forensic psychology bears out the fact that shooters will shoot until they are confronted by police (he may have used the word "authority"). 

 

Without giving specifics, I will say that I worked closely (administrative position in another agency) with that sheriff's department for several years, have very close ties to not only that area but specifically the immediate blocks surrounding the school, and have known several families with children who are currently students.

 

Thank GOD for the lessons learned at Columbine.  That sheriff's office bumbled their way through that in horrifying ways that caused people to lose lives (not going in to stop the shooters, preventing teacher Dave Sanders from receiving medical attention which would have saved his life, for starters).  The shooting at Arapahoe had that same potential--the gunman was armed with his shotgun, wore a bandolier with more ammo, had three molotov cocktails and carried a machete.  Note that the incendiary devices and machete could have inflicted much damage--gun laws or not. 

 

Based on Sheriff Robinson's account yesterday after viewing the school video, the armed school resource officer is THE reason more were not killed.

[Word Nerd]

I was wondering if anyone local new more about the status of the teenage girl?  Is there anything we can do for her family to provide some support?

 

The family released a statement this afternoon. She is stable but in a coma.

[Dandelion]

You know I mean people without a criminal record, because presumably that would make it harder to purchase a gun.

OK

The argument is "well criminals will get guns no matter what", right?

Adam Lanza got a gun from his mother who bought it for pleasure shooting.

This killer got his gun at a store.

Firearms were very easily accessible to someone looking to do massive damage very fast in both cases. 

These were preventable crimes.  No "no matter what" about it.

 

Each criminal's record starts somewhere.

 

And yes, anyone with *criminal intent* (whether they have a criminal record or not) can acquire a gun.  Some will do so legally (like the shooter in this case), but if they can't buy one legally there's really nothing to stop them from buying a gun illegally.  

 

Stricter gun laws will do absolutely nothing to curb illegal gun sales, nor will they stop someone intent on buying a gun from acquiring one.  Just as strict drug laws (the "war on drugs") have done absolutely nothing to curb illegal drug sales.  

 

The only thing stricter gun laws will accomplish is to make it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to acquire guns.  Taking guns out of the hands of people who would use them to defend themselves and their families just makes them more of a target for criminals. There are numerous studies, including this Harvard study, that show that areas with the highest rates of citizen gun ownership have the lowest murder rates (data from both inside and outside of the U.S. support this finding). Why?  Because armed citizens are a deterrent for would-be criminals.  

 

I've never understood the logic of implementing laws to limit access to things that can be used responsibly and legally by the vast majority of citizens (even though they may be abused by some).  The answer is not to penalize the law-abiding on the front end by banning or making it difficult to acquire guns. The answer is to penalize those that abuse that right (the criminals) on the backend, by implementing stiffer sentences for gun-related crimes.

 

[ThisIsTheDay]

The family released a statement this afternoon. She is stable but in a coma.

 

Thank you so much for posting.  I'd looked earlier and not been able to find an update.  Continuing to pray for Claire, her family, and the students/families and others involved or otherwise affected by this.  Life will never go back to "normal" for these people--it will be a part of their new normal.  :crying: :crying:  

 

[poppy]

 

 

Each criminal's record starts somewhere.

 

And yes, anyone with *criminal intent* (whether they have a criminal record or not) can acquire a gun.  Some will do so legally (like the shooter in this case), but if they can't buy one legally there's really nothing to stop them from buying a gun illegally.  

 

Stricter gun laws will do absolutely nothing to curb illegal gun sales, nor will they stop someone intent on buying a gun from acquiring one.  Just as strict drug laws (the "war on drugs") have done absolutely nothing to curb illegal drug sales.  

 

The only thing stricter gun laws will accomplish is to make it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to acquire guns.  Taking guns out of the hands of people who would use them to defend themselves and their families just makes them more of a target for criminals. There are numerous studies, including this Harvard study, that show that areas with the highest rates of citizen gun ownership have the lowest murder rates (data from both inside and outside of the U.S. support this finding). Why?  Because armed citizens are a deterrent for would-be criminals.  

 

I've never understood the logic of implementing laws to limit access to things that can be used responsibly and legally by the vast majority of citizens (even though they may be abused by some).  The answer is not to penalize the law-abiding on the front end by banning or making it difficult to acquire guns. The answer is to penalize those that abuse that right (the criminals) on the backend, by implementing stiffer sentences for gun-related crimes.

 

 

Do you really think that if everyone who felt like buying a gun would have to go through illegal channels to buy one, there would be the same number of crime? I don't. I think Adam Lanza wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.  I think this Colorado shooter wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.   It took minutes, literally,  and no hassle at all for each to get a weapon that could cause massive loss of life very quickly. 

 

You can say "there's nothing that could stop them" but that's just fantasy. Even if guns were accessible through the black market, it would add considerable risk, expense and delay.  All things that might deter a rampage killer. 

 

Plus nothing you said addresses the 194 children killed accidentally by guns in the past year.  That is 3 or 4 kids per week. Every week.   More will die. No question about it.  I'm very uncomfortable with that statistic. Aren't you? 

 

Most people use firearms responsibly, but enough do not that it is a public health threat.  If there was a crib that killed 3 or 4 kids per week, and it stayed on the market for years without incident,that  would be an outrage.   Obviously, car accidents are the greatest risk to kids.  My husband works in auto manufacturing and I can tell you the amount of regulation associated with every little facet of the car making process is immense.  And safety issues are very highly regulated.  With guns, there are laws against irresponsible use that almost never get enforced.    And more children die.

 

[poppy]

You are incorrect in your assumption.  The armed sheriff's deputy does indeed appear to be a factor, according to Sheriff Grayson Robinson.  He specifically said in yesterday's news conference that forensic psychology bears out the fact that shooters will shoot until they are confronted by police (he may have used the word "authority"). 

 

Without giving specifics, I will say that I worked closely (administrative position in another agency) with that sheriff's department for several years, have very close ties to not only that area but specifically the immediate blocks surrounding the school, and have known several families with children who are currently students.

 

Thank GOD for the lessons learned at Columbine.  That sheriff's office bumbled their way through that in horrifying ways that caused people to lose lives (not going in to stop the shooters, preventing teacher Dave Sanders from receiving medical attention which would have saved his life, for starters).  The shooting at Arapahoe had that same potential--the gunman was armed with his shotgun, wore a bandolier with more ammo, had three molotov cocktails and carried a machete.  Note that the incendiary devices and machete could have inflicted much damage--gun laws or not. 

 

Based on Sheriff Robinson's account yesterday after viewing the school video, the armed school resource officer is THE reason more were not killed.

 

Yes, I saw that update. I am very glad that the killer was deterred.   Good for the school for having an effective plan in place.  8 miles from Columbine, I guess it's not surprising that they do.

 

Please do not tell me a machete is as dangerous as  a gun.  The Newtown killed terrorized and massacred 25 people in something like 10 minutes.  He took an almost leisurely pace, going from room to room.  This is not the movies --- a knife style weapon will never be able to do what a gun can.  And as for the bomb, yes, that is a terrible weapon, and easy to make at home. Gun laws can't do much about molotov cocktails.  But most rampage killers chose guns. Because it's more efficient at killing targets, and also and less risk to the person wielding it.  People have always been able to make incendiary devices.  Hello Guy Fawkes.  School killings happen because of easy access to firearms.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Please do not tell me a machete is as dangerous as  a gun. 

 

I did not tell you that. You are stretching what others are saying in an effort to further your point.

 

 

 

  The Newtown killed terrorized and massacred 25 people in something like 10 minutes.  He took an almost leisurely pace, going from room to room.

 

I am not familiar enough with the Newtown shootings to know if this is accurate. 

 

 

 

 School killings happen because of easy access to firearms.

 

 

I agree we'll have to disagree on this.  People have had "easy access to firearms" for several hundred years in this country, yet school shootings of this magnitude are quite recent.

 

[Berta]

You are incorrect in your assumption.  The armed sheriff's deputy does indeed appear to be a factor, according to Sheriff Grayson Robinson.  He specifically said in yesterday's news conference that forensic psychology bears out the fact that shooters will shoot until they are confronted by police (he may have used the word "authority"). 

 

Without giving specifics, I will say that I worked closely (administrative position in another agency) with that sheriff's department for several years, have very close ties to not only that area but specifically the immediate blocks surrounding the school, and have known several families with children who are currently students.

 

Thank GOD for the lessons learned at Columbine.  That sheriff's office bumbled their way through that in horrifying ways that caused people to lose lives (not going in to stop the shooters, preventing teacher Dave Sanders from receiving medical attention which would have saved his life, for starters).  The shooting at Arapahoe had that same potential--the gunman was armed with his shotgun, wore a bandolier with more ammo, had three molotov cocktails and carried a machete.  Note that the incendiary devices and machete could have inflicted much damage--gun laws or not. 

 

Based on Sheriff Robinson's account yesterday after viewing the school video, the armed school resource officer is THE reason more were not killed.

 

This! Because the shooter ran up against armed resistance the entire incident ended in less than 2 mins. If you want to see an end to school shootings then have armed guards, administrators and faculty in EVERY school. Criminals look for a target rich environment where there will be no resistance. Gun Free Zones are the problem.

 

[Berta]

Do you really think that if everyone who felt like buying a gun would have to go through illegal channels to buy one, there would be the same number of crime? I don't. I think Adam Lanza wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.  I think this Colorado shooter wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.   It took minutes, literally,  and no hassle at all for each to get a weapon that could cause massive loss of life very quickly. 

 

You can say "there's nothing that could stop them" but that's just fantasy. Even if guns were accessible through the black market, it would add considerable risk, expense and delay.  All things that might deter a rampage killer. 

 

Plus nothing you said addresses the 194 children killed accidentally by guns in the past year.  That is 3 or 4 kids per week. Every week.   More will die. No question about it.  I'm very uncomfortable with that statistic. Aren't you? 

 

Most people use firearms responsibly, but enough do not that it is a public health threat.  If there was a crib that killed 3 or 4 kids per week, and it stayed on the market for years without incident,that  would be an outrage.   Obviously, car accidents are the greatest risk to kids.  My husband works in auto manufacturing and I can tell you the amount of regulation associated with every little facet of the car making process is immense.  And safety issues are very highly regulated.  With guns, there are laws against irresponsible use that almost never get enforced.    And more children die.

 

 

LOL. The highlighted text made me laugh out loud. I could leave my house right now and be back in less than an hour with an illegally bought gun. Black market means cash in hand=illegal gun in hand. No waiting period, no background checks. A lot of times they can be had for a lot LESS then what it would cost to buy one legally. I don't know what makes you think it is riskier, more expensive or time consuming.

 

Please explain the illegal channels it takes to buy an illegal gun? Lets see.. to get a LEGAL gun I had to be finger printed, have a background check (with EACH AND EVERY gun), pay a fee for the pleasure of the PD doing the search and then WAIT. How is that easier then obtaining an illegal gun, which takes less than an hour and a few bucks.. .no questions asked?

 

I used to live next to a detective that worked in Camden NJ. If you have never heard of it, look it up. It's consistently ranked in the top five dangerous cities in America. He could tell you stories that would blow your theory (risky, expensive and time consuming) right out of the water.

[Berta]

Yes, I saw that update. I am very glad that the killer was deterred.   Good for the school for having an effective plan in place.  8 miles from Columbine, I guess it's not surprising that they do.

 

Please do not tell me a machete is as dangerous as  a gun.  The Newtown killed terrorized and massacred 25 people in something like 10 minutes.  He took an almost leisurely pace, going from room to room.  This is not the movies --- a knife style weapon will never be able to do what a gun can.  And as for the bomb, yes, that is a terrible weapon, and easy to make at home. Gun laws can't do much about molotov cocktails.  But most rampage killers chose guns. Because it's more efficient at killing targets, and also and less risk to the person wielding it.  People have always been able to make incendiary devices.  Hello Guy Fawkes.  School killings happen because of easy access to firearms.

 

School killings happen because some sick dude decided to he wanted to kill. I have yet to see any of my firearms decide to get up, load up and kill on their own. And I have owned them for a LONG time.

 

 

[poppy]

This! Because the shooter ran up against armed resistance the entire incident ended in less than 2 mins. If you want to see an end to school shootings then have armed guards, administrators and faculty in EVERY school. Criminals look for a target rich environment where there will be no resistance. Gun Free Zones are the problem.

 

If your theory was correct, this shooting never would have happened.

[Berta]

You know I mean people without a criminal record, because presumably that would make it harder to purchase a gun.

OK

The argument is "well criminals will get guns no matter what", right?

Adam Lanza got a gun from his mother who bought it for pleasure shooting.

This killer got his gun at a store.

Firearms were very easily accessible to someone looking to do massive damage very fast in both cases. 

These were preventable crimes.  No "no matter what" about it.

 

This killer got his gun at a gun store after going through expanded background checks in a state with newly enacted stricter gun control laws.

 

No one can prevent a deranged person from wanting to kill innocent people. But good people, armed, can stop them in their tracks as the resource officer did in this school shooting. It is very sad that one child was shot, but THANK GOD it was only one child. If that resource officer had not been there, with a firearm, it could very well had been several children shot.

[Berta]

If your theory was correct, this shooting never would have happened.

 

Do you think this shooter would have walked into that school if he knew someone was armed? I don't. If that was the case he would have engaged the armed resource officer in a shoot-out. Instead, he turned the gun on himself. That is what cowards do when met with resistance. He went into that school because statistically, schools are Gun Free Zones.

[poppy]

LOL. The highlighted text made me laugh out loud. I could leave my house right now and be back in less than an hour with an illegally bought gun. Black market means cash in hand=illegal gun in hand. No waiting period, no background checks. A lot of times they can be had for a lot LESS then what it would cost to buy one legally. I don't know what makes you think it is riskier, more expensive or time consuming.

 

Please explain the illegal channels it takes to buy an illegal gun? Lets see.. to get a LEGAL gun I had to be finger printed, have a background check (with EACH AND EVERY gun), pay a fee for the pleasure of the PD doing the search and then WAIT. How is that easier then obtaining an illegal gun, which takes less than an hour and a few bucks.. .no questions asked?

 

I used to live next to a detective that worked in Camden NJ. If you have never heard of it, look it up. It's consistently ranked in the top five dangerous cities in America. He could tell you stories that would blow your theory (risky, expensive and time consuming) right out of the water.

That just proves that you are familiar with the black market, not that any random potential rampage killer would be. It also goes to show our current laws and enforcement against illegal firearms are inadequate and should be much stronger.

[poppy]

Do you think this shooter would have walked into that school if he knew someone was armed? I don't. If that was the case he would have engaged the armed resource officer in a shoot-out. Instead, he turned the gun on himself. That is what cowards do when met with resistance. He went into that school because statistically, schools are Gun Free Zones.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Obviously no one can know what he was thinking, but we do know that he was familiar with this particular location.

He was a student in that school, remember. He did not target it because 'statistically schools are Gun free zones.’

[Berta]

That just proves that you are familiar with the black market, not that any random potential rampage killer would be. It also goes to show our current laws and enforcement against illegal firearms are inadequate and should be much stronger.

 

See, we agree on something. The current laws and enforcement against ILLEGAL firearms is inadequate. Someone caught with an illegal firearm deserves serious jail time. The key word here is ILLEGAL. Current gun control laws target LEGAL, law abiding citizens and not ILLEGAL guns in the hands of criminals.

 

And no, I have never bought a gun illegally off the black market. Thanks to a criminal ex-inlaw I do know how easily they can be obtained. But trust me when I say it is a heck of a lot easier, faster and cheaper than buying one legally.

 

[Dandelion]

Do you really think that if everyone who felt like buying a gun would have to go through illegal channels to buy one, there would be the same number of crime? I don't. I think Adam Lanza wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.  I think this Colorado shooter wanted to do something horrible and had very easy access to a gun.   It took minutes, literally,  and no hassle at all for each to get a weapon that could cause massive loss of life very quickly. 

 

You can say "there's nothing that could stop them" but that's just fantasy. Even if guns were accessible through the black market, it would add considerable risk, expense and delay.  All things that might deter a rampage killer. 

 

 

I think if someone really wants a gun, they will find a way to get one.  "Illegal channels" aren't necessarily as risky as the term would make them appear.  They may not involve any more expense, delay, or hassle than legal gun purchases (in fact, they can be easier all around in some cases). 

 

According to this PBS Frontline report, guns are most often acquired illegally through the following channels:

#1 - "straw purchase" sales - when someone who can't buy a gun legally, or who wants to remain anonymous, has someone else buy the gun for them

#2 - legally licensed but corrupt home-based and commercial gun dealers

#3 - other sources - gun theft, illegal street dealers, etc. - these are the more risky channels, but they actually appear to account for fewer illegal gun acquisitions than the above two sources

 

The article ends with the following statement by an ATF agent: "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."

 

I'm in favor of laws governing the sale and use of guns.  I'm in favor of thorough background checks.  But there is a definite point of diminishing returns, where stricter gun control laws do nothing to enhance public safety and in fact become detrimental to public safety (not just my opinion - the data backs that up). 

 

 

Plus nothing you said addresses the 194 children killed accidentally by guns in the past year.  That is 3 or 4 kids per week. Every week.   More will die. No question about it.  I'm very uncomfortable with that statistic. Aren't you? 

 

 

Of course I'm uncomfortable with that statistic.  Any reasonable person would be.  The death of any child is tragic, regardless of the cause.

 

Every day, about 10 people die from unintentional drowning in the U.S.  Of these, two are children age 14 or younger. Drowning is one of the leading causes of death for children under the age of 5.  And yet, we're not placing increasingly stricter regulations on swimming or swimming pools.   We recognize that swimming is a potentially dangerous activity, swimming pools are potentially dangerous places, and that accidents are going to happen.  

 

You mentioned that car accidents are a leading cause of death for children, and how you see first hand the amount of regulation associated with car manufacturing (due to your DH's work).  The majority of car accidents happen due to actions taken by the driver(s) involved, rather than some manufacturing error or issue with the car's components.  No amount of regulation governing the car manufacturing process is going to prevent car accidents from happening.  The most conscientious people get into car accidents.  People who would never dream of hurting a child get into car accidents that injure or kill children.  

 

The point is that accidents happen.  No amount of regulation is going to prevent accidents involving guns, swimming pools, cars, electric cords, window screens, household cleaners, or any of the many other items that have legitimate, safe uses and yet can cause tragic accidents.

 

 

Most people use firearms responsibly, but enough do not that it is a public health threat.  If there was a crib that killed 3 or 4 kids per week, and it stayed on the market for years without incident,that  would be an outrage.   Obviously, car accidents are the greatest risk to kids.  My husband works in auto manufacturing and I can tell you the amount of regulation associated with every little facet of the car making process is immense.  And safety issues are very highly regulated.  With guns, there are laws against irresponsible use that almost never get enforced.    And more children die.
 

 

If there was a crib that killed 3 or 4 kids per week, it would be due to a manufacturing issue.  Said crib would be recalled, they would address the safety issues in the next round of manufacturing, and it would be back on the market in a few months (perhaps under a different model name).  Safety recalls happen with guns too. It's no different.

 

But since you mentioned cribs as an example, you might be interested in the fact that an average of 113 children die each year in crib accidents.  

 

[Berta]

Now you're just making stuff up.

Obviously no one can know what he was thinking, but we do know that he was familiar with this particular location.

He was a student in that school, remember. He did. It did not target it because 'statistically schools are Gun free zones.’

 

Are most schools Gun Free zones? Look it up, I assure you most are GFZ's.

[poppy]

See, we agree on something. The current laws and enforcement against ILLEGAL firearms is inadequate. Someone caught with an illegal firearm deserves serious jail time. The key word here is ILLEGAL. Current gun control laws target LEGAL, law abiding citizens and not ILLEGAL guns in the hands of criminals.

 

And no, I have never bought a gun illegally off the black market. Thanks to a criminal ex-inlaw I do know how easily they can be obtained. But trust me when I say it is a heck of a lot easier, faster and cheaper than buying one legally.

 

Illegal guns are all bought legally at some point, correct? Current gun control laws target buyers of firearms to identify potential public health threats, but do they do enough to identify the people who will channel guns to the black market? The rights of recreational gun users do not trump public safety.

[poppy]

Are most schools Gun Free zones? Look it up, I assure you most are GFZ's.

Irrelevant. This school had an armed guard, and the shooter must have known. Or was this school resource officer hired between the last time this kid went to school and when he entered with the gun?

[Berta]

Illegal guns are all bought legally at some point, correct? Current gun control laws target buyers of firearms to identify potential public health threats, but do they do enough to identify the people who will channel guns to the black market? The rights of recreational gun users do not trump public safety.

 

Cars are bought legally but somehow they manage to get stolen. If someone hits and kills someone with a stolen car are you going to hold the legal car owner responsible for that death or the person who actually stole the car? We need to severely punish those who break the law, not those who abide by the law.

 

 

Irrelevant. This school had an armed guard, and the shooter must have known. Or was this school resource officer hired between the last time this kid went to school and when he entered with the gun?

 

I do not know the answer to that question.

[poppy]

Cars are bought legally but somehow they manage to get stolen. If someone hits and kills someone with a stolen car are you going to hold the legal car owner responsible for that death or the person who actually stole the car? We need to severely punish those who break the law, not those who abide by the law.

 

 

 

I do not know the answer to that question.

 

Right, if you gun is stolen by a criminal, that is not your fault.  I'm talking about the  people who buy guns legally and then SELL them on the black market. The report linked about suggested that 10%-15% of guns used in crimes are from stolen guns.  The vast majority come from legally bought guns sold to criminals, or by legal sellers who break the law to sell to unqualified buyers. In other words, the vast majority of illegal guns in criminals hands come through legal channels.  This is a obviously a huge problem for anyone concerned with public safety. 

[OneStepAtATime]

The family released a statement this afternoon. She is stable but in a coma.

Thanks.  I appreciate the update.

[Caroline]

Do you think this shooter would have walked into that school if he knew someone was armed? I don't. If that was the case he would have engaged the armed resource officer in a shoot-out. Instead, he turned the gun on himself. That is what cowards do when met with resistance. He went into that school because statistically, schools are Gun Free Zones.

 

He knew someone was armed. He knew the resource officer was armed. That is a given in many high schools. It certainly was a given in this high school. So statistically, it was 100% certain there was an armed person where this person chose to commit his crime. Yes, this shooter walked into this school knowing someone in there was armed.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

What I found rather upsetting are the news scenes where they show the kids walking out of the school with their hands up like they are potential criminals.  I can imagine how scary and lonely that must have felt.  I suppose I "get" why they do that, but I can't help but feel it's rather horrid. 

 

DW's kids get upset with every lockdown drill.  It's the new duck-and-cover.

[goldberry]

 

For the record, too, Australia and the UK don't have the US Constitution which protects our rights, including the right to bear arms.  I am not saying they don't have any rights but they don't have that right enshrined in the founding Constitution.  We do and good luck trying to change the 2nd amendment.

 

The right to bear arms doesn't guarantee totally unrestricted access to any type of firearm, or that there should be no standards for who bear them or store them.

 

The argument of "they're trying to take away our guns" is nothing but fearmongering and hyperbole. No one has realistically even suggested that.

[goldberry]

With the power distribution in a parliamentary system vs. a representative repbublic, it's doubtful we'll ever muster the political will to achieve a UK/Aussie sort of ban. A national, idependent redistricting board would be a start so that eventually legislatures might come to actually reflect the shifting populace.

 

I recently read an article about the fact that gerrymandering is actually legal.  It boggles the mind.

[unsinkable]

Yes! This drives me batty.

 

Ya know what is nuts. If I have a baby pool in my back yard and I lock my fence, but my fence does not surround my baby pool, if some kid gets in my yard and drowns in my baby pool I'll have my ass dragged through the mud. It's ok, however, to leave a loaded gun on my kitchen table. If my kid's friend or my kid gets a hold of it, my ass won't get dragged through the mud. That'll be called an "unfortunately accident".

In some states there are "safe storage laws" that address this.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I recently read an article about the fact that gerrymandering is actually legal.  It boggles the mind.

 

Well, yeah.  It's the elected officials who benefit from it.  Roasting live puppies would be legal if it increased poll turnout of a particularly desirable demographic.

[goldberry]

I work at a fire station in a rural area.  About 3 weeks ago we had a 14 yo boy commit suicide with a handgun, in his bedroom, while the parents were in another room..  Responding to the call, my fire guys also saw a shotgun sitting propped up in a corner of the living room.

 

What an "unavoidable tragedy.."

[poppy]

In some states there are "safe storage laws" that address this.

 

That are almost never enforced.  This article says that of 72 children gun deaths this year where a child was the shooter, 4 resulted in adults being held criminally liable.  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/children-killed-guns-newtown-anniversary  (Those 72 represent less than half of the child gun deaths.....)

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Yes!  This drives me batty.

 

Ya know what is nuts.  If I have a baby pool in my back yard and I lock my fence, but my fence does not surround my baby pool, if some kid gets in my yard and drowns in my baby pool I'll have my ass dragged through the mud.  It's ok, however, to leave a loaded gun on my kitchen table.  If my kid's friend or my kid gets a hold of it, my ass won't get dragged through the mud.  That'll be called an "unfortunately accident".

 

'Murica.

 

I'm pretty anti-gun, but I think they can be kept safely, but I also think few would go to lengths to do that (e.g. gun safe and trigger locks and mom and dad each keep the only keys around their necks 24/7 - yes even int he shower, just like those guys in the missile silos in North Dakota).

 

That is curious.  Car seats?  Check.  Locks on the cabinets with the bleach?  Got it.  Fence around the pool?  Of course!  But my teenager has access to our guns because we know he respects them.  Wait....  Is this the kid you won't let drive across town in the snow at night for an unsupervised co-ed sleepover?  Yes, at 18, you can enlist and be given extensive weapons training, but the military won't issue you live ammo on day one of basic, yet a sporting goods store will?  It's the same teenage brain in both instances.  Something seems amiss.

 

There's also the issue of type -- meaning deer rifles don't seem to be used in many school shootings, although this kid had a shotgun, which he prob bought on the premise (real or not) of birding.  I have yet to see a sane argument for the need to hunt with an AR-15, or similar, but the counter-args usually come down the the slippery slope idea of outlawing one type and "they'll come for my other guns."  This, despite slippery slopes do not seem to be a common menace with other laws we've gotten worked up over in the past.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Poppy--Mother Jones is a liberal rag!!

 

 

LOL.  That's recycled, organic hemp rags, thank you very much.   I rather like MJ, but as I am a Progressive, that fits.  We are officially post-truth, never to return.  You bring sources; I'll bring sources.  Zero middle ground.

 

Didn't Dr. Seuss have something like this in the Butter Battle?

[Dandelion]

Right, if you gun is stolen by a criminal, that is not your fault.  I'm talking about the  people who buy guns legally and then SELL them on the black market. The report linked about suggested that 10%-15% of guns used in crimes are from stolen guns.  The vast majority come from legally bought guns sold to criminals, or by legal sellers who break the law to sell to unqualified buyers. In other words, the vast majority of illegal guns in criminals hands come through legal channels.  This is a obviously a huge problem for anyone concerned with public safety.

 

Yes, that's a problem.  And there are many steps that can be taken to address that problem, without making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to purchase firearms. 

 

Here's the complete report from the U.S. Department of Justice outlining the findings from the most recent review (conducted by the Office of the Inspector General) of the ATF's Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) Inspection Program.  Corrupt FFLs comprise the biggest *legal* channel of illegal gun sales.  The ATF estimates that about 8% of FFLs are responsible for selling the majority of illegal weapons used in crimes. 

 

The way to address this problem is to improve inspections and audits of FFLs, and increase penalties for FFLs participating in illegal sales.  These steps are outlined in the Department of Justice report linked above, and the ATF has been working towards that goal (here's their most recent FFL Compliance Inspection Report). 

 

Increasing restrictions on legal gun purchases will do nothing to address the problem of illegal gun sales through FFLs, and does not factor in to the Department of Justice's recommendations for addressing this issue. 

 

Another interesting data point:  the gun homicide rate in the U.S. is down 49% since its peak in 1993.  From this Pew Research report: 

"Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades."  

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

 Did anyone see Bill Moyers show last night with Richard Slotkin?   http://billmoyers.com/segment/richard-slotkin-on-guns-and-violence/

 

He has a series of books concerning this country's psyche about guns. Very interesting, especially from a historical standpoint.

 

He sounds a lot like the guy I heard on NPR.  I thought that interview was quite clam and balanced, which is why it won't make a difference. :banghead:

[goldberry]

Yeah if someone is hell bent on killing themselves, they don't need a gun, but it certainly will not be as easy.  Guns are just too easy.

 

Yeah, I think they make it too easy for people to make a really spur of the moment choice.  I know personally of two instances where there was no suicidal intention going on prior to the incident (at least not that anyone was aware of, I know you can never really know.).  Girlfriend troubles + alcohol + gun in the house.

 

In one of the cases that I know of in detail, there is no way on earth that kid would have gone out of the house to try to find some other way to kill himself.  He would have slept it off and been hungover the next day.  Instead, a life was ended and a family torn apart.

 

Too easy.

[nmoira]

I work at a fire station in a rural area.  About 3 weeks ago we had a 14 yo boy commit suicide with a handgun, in his bedroom, while the parents were in another room..  Responding to the call, my fire guys also saw a shotgun sitting propped up in a corner of the living room.

 

What an "unavoidable tragedy.."

 

IIRC, there is a strong correlation between gun ownership, particularly with readily available guns in the home (i.e. not locked up with ammo stored separately) and *successful* suicide attempts. It makes sense that this method would have greater efficacy than others.