What's an AP "perfect score?" (not just a 5)

[daijobu]

This article was published in our local paper, and it has me a little confused.  

 

"Seniors Ashutosh Jindal, Douglas Chen and Prajit Ramachandran recently learned they earned perfect scores on their AP computer science exams. They are three of only 19 students in the world to earn every point on the test."

 

 

I guess one does not need a perfect exam to score a 5, but I didn't realize that raw scores were also released.  Does the AP let students know how they did on individual problems, other than their 1-5 score?  

[Caroline]

This article was published in our local paper, and it has me a little confused.

 

"Seniors Ashutosh Jindal, Douglas Chen and Prajit Ramachandran recently learned they earned perfect scores on their AP computer science exams. They are three of only 19 students in the world to earn every point on the test."

 

 

I guess one does not need a perfect exam to score a 5, but I didn't realize that raw scores were also released. Does the AP let students know how they did on individual problems, other than their 1-5 score?

The score report the teacher gets shows how each student did on each question.

[Laura in CA]

Wow! (My son -- also a senior -- knows some of those boys from math competitions ...)

[daijobu]

The score report the teacher gets shows how each student did on each question.

 

Do homeschoolers have access to these score reports?  

[daijobu]

Wow! (My son -- also a senior -- knows some of those boys from math competitions ...)

 

"It doesn't really surprise me," said Scott DeRuiter, a Monta Vista math and computer science teacher. "They came into my class knowing more about computer science than I did."

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the MVHS computer science department.  

[Teachin'Mine]

LOL about the endorsement!  

[bettyandbob]

"It doesn't really surprise me," said Scott DeRuiter, a Monta Vista math and computer science teacher. "They came into my class knowing more about computer science than I did."

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the MVHS computer science department.  

 

I wouldn't think that. I have had the chance to work with a few profoundly gifted students. By high school they are really beyond any curriculum. The best teachers are coaches who know what direction to guide these students as they delve further into an area of their focus. 

 

Students like this not like most kids who take an AP class. They aren't like most kids who placed into a school district's gifted program in elementary school (most school districts have an IQ cut off between 125 and 135). Depending on the for of IQ test profoundly gifted students score above 160 or 180. 

 

I suspect these students are at least exceptionally gifted, if not profoundly gifted. There is nothing wrong with a teacher who recognizes a student's talent and strength in a subject reaches beyond the teacher. In fact it is the sign of a good teacher. 

[Laura in CA]

Agreeing with Betty ... and adding a few points (quickly, & on my iPad!) ...

MV is a very good school.* Our (humble) local high school didn't even *offer* AP CS last year ... Here is where homeschoolers have such a huge advantage!

Also, the boys in the article truly are exceptional. Not sure specifically about these kids (but I could easily check!), but there are some boys more locally who are internationally ranked in the USACO (computing olympiad) -- literally among the top few under-age-20 coders in the world (gold level, or whatever is the highest ... my son is still in bronze, and he's not shabby!). So for the teacher to say these kids were beyond him is, if anything, understatement. Says nothing about the school, in other words. Again, we homeschoolers aren't bound by whatever the local school offers (& neither are, apparently, these kids -- probably due to the Internet or various CS camps). Yay!

The important thing is, yes - how do WE get a copy of the test results?! :)


ETA: Here is a photo of one of the boys in the article (either at far left or 3rd from left; my son would know, but he's not home now) meeting President Obama after the CA team won the national MATHCOUNTS competition in 2010:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mathcounts2010.jpg

My son was thrilled just to be breathing the same air as these kids at the CA MATHCOUNTS state competition ...

 

E(again!)TA:  FWIW, the boy second from the left in the photo left high school after 11th grade and is now a freshman at MIT.

 

* ETA: Also from Wikipedia : "Monta Vista is regarded as one of the top high schools in California, located in one of the most affluent cities in the country with recorded average income of more than $100,000 per household." Also, the student body is 79% Asian ... Anyway, having 3 perfect scorers in the same class ... again, wow! (& it's a public school)

[Teachin'Mine]

Betty, I agree!   I still think it's funny though.  :p

 

Laura, if I could put a caption to their photo with Pres. Obama, he'd be thinking " ... I should have hired them to set up the healthcare website ... "  

[Laura in CA]

Betty, I agree! I still think it's funny though. :p

 

Laura, if I could put a caption to their photo with Pres. Obama, he'd be thinking " ... I should have hired them to set up the healthcare website ... "

LOL!!! I bet they could have! :D

[Sunshine State Sue]

Laura, if I could put a caption to their photo with Pres. Obama, he'd be thinking " ... I should have hired them to set up the healthcare website ... "  

 

:smilielol5:

 

[AFwife Claire]

Do homeschoolers have access to these score reports?  

Not that I could figure out last year.  I wish!!

[Arcadia]

"It doesn't really surprise me," said Scott DeRuiter, a Monta Vista math and computer science teacher. "They came into my class knowing more about computer science than I did."

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the MVHS computer science department.

MVHS is in Cupertino near Apple's headquarters and other tech companies. Have some pity on the teachers who have to deal with us Silicon Valley parents who thinks AP CompSci is easier than work :). The teacher is just being honest.

 

ETA:

Saw this in OP's link article so my guess was correct :lol:

"Some do side projects of their own, and each has at least one parent working in high tech, either as an IT employee or in management."

[daijobu]

Sorry to get us OT about this, but to return to original post:  It does strike me as unfair that regular teachers get score reports for their students, but homeschooling parents do not.  

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree.  The full score report should be available to homeschooling parents.  

[Caroline]

I agree.  The full score report should be available to homeschooling parents.  

 

The report is available to the teacher of record who has submitted a syllabus for the course. If you have done that, you should be able to get the report. It isn't handed to the teacher. It is part of his/her professional College Board account. If you have an account and have submitted a syllabus and your student fills out his answer sheet correctly, the report is available to you online.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The report is available to the teacher of record who has submitted a syllabus for the course. If you have done that, you should be able to get the report. It isn't handed to the teacher. It is part of his/her professional College Board account. If you have an account and have submitted a syllabus and your student fills out his answer sheet correctly, the report is available to you online.

Ah, one more reason to get hot with finishing my syllabus.

[Teachin'Mine]

Caroline, that makes sense.  But it would still be frustrating not to be able to get the report if you didn't go the official route.

[daijobu]

The report is available to the teacher of record who has submitted a syllabus for the course. If you have done that, you should be able to get the report. It isn't handed to the teacher. It is part of his/her professional College Board account. If you have an account and have submitted a syllabus and your student fills out his answer sheet correctly, the report is available to you online.

 

Thank you.  This is good to know.

[Azalea]

The report is available to the teacher of record who has submitted a syllabus for the course. If you have done that, you should be able to get the report. It isn't handed to the teacher. It is part of his/her professional College Board account. If you have an account and have submitted a syllabus and your student fills out his answer sheet correctly, the report is available to you online.

 

Okay then, has anyone ever gotten reports from Pennsylvania Homeschoolers? Why don't they offer us the reports!?! Any thoughts?

[bettyandbob]

I believe College Board made a move to make the term "AP" proprietary. Maybe that's not exactly correct. But I think they have some kind of rule about calling a course an AP course. That's where the syllabus comes in, but I also believe teachers have to jump through a few more hoops to have a course called AP. 

 

A course can be structured to cover what's on the AP exam and a student taking such a course could take the AP exam an earn a high score on the exam. That does not mean the student took an "AP" course. 

 

College Board did this several years ago. It happened shortly after schools were required to have open enrollment in AP courses. There was a period where school districts were adding courses labeled AP in everything, but the instruction was definitely not complete. So, College Board wanted to limited what could be called AP. 

 

Has anyone on this board gotten a course approved by the College Board? It would be interesting to know a first hand account of jumping through hoops. Maybe it's not as bad as I think. 

 

In the end, it doesn't matter whether a course is called AP, what matters is the score on the exam. 

[daijobu]

The report is available to the teacher of record who has submitted a syllabus for the course. If you have done that, you should be able to get the report. It isn't handed to the teacher. It is part of his/her professional College Board account. If you have an account and have submitted a syllabus and your student fills out his answer sheet correctly, the report is available to you online.

 

What information is included in the report?  

[Luckymama]

Has anyone on this board gotten a course approved by the College Board? It would be interesting to know a first hand account of jumping through hoops. Maybe it's not as bad as I think.

 

I did. It was quite simple, really (after I spent two weeks during the summer researching and writing the syllabus!). I created a college board account as an AP teacher (you need to put down your affiliation, like school's CEEB code---I chose homeschooling teacher or whatever the wording is). I had to tick a few boxes, I think, and then uploaded the syllabus. A day or two later it was approved, giving me access to all kinds of resources :)

[regentrude]

Maybe the answer is obvious and I am just dense, but what benefit would there be in receiving the full score?

I mean, it's not as if one would have the student re-study for, and retake, the exam a year later if they missed the 5 by a question... or would you?

[bettyandbob]

Maybe the answer is obvious and I am just dense, but what benefit would there be in receiving the full score?

I mean, it's not as if one would have the student re-study for, and retake, the exam a year later if they missed the 5 by a question... or would you?

 

I there is a benefit to the teacher, but the not the student. If the graded exams come back and the teacher can see that his/her students are regularly missing a certain type of question then the teacher can work to improve his/her instruction in the topic the next year. 

 

I do not see how this would help a homeschool parent who may never teach the class again and has a student sample of one so could not show a pattern of topics or questions missed. 

[8filltheheart]

I believe College Board made a move to make the term "AP" proprietary. Maybe that's not exactly correct. But I think they have some kind of rule about calling a course an AP course. That's where the syllabus comes in, but I also believe teachers have to jump through a few more hoops to have a course called AP.

 

A course can be structured to cover what's on the AP exam and a student taking such a course could take the AP exam an earn a high score on the exam. That does not mean the student took an "AP" course.

 

College Board did this several years ago. It happened shortly after schools were required to have open enrollment in AP courses. There was a period where school districts were adding courses labeled AP in everything, but the instruction was definitely not complete. So, College Board wanted to limited what could be called AP.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter whether a course is called AP, what matters is the score on the exam.

What I and other homeschoolers I know have done is to label courses XYZ with AP exam for self-designed AP courses without syllabus approval.

[daijobu]

I did. It was quite simple, really (after I spent two weeks during the summer researching and writing the syllabus!). I created a college board account as an AP teacher (you need to put down your affiliation, like school's CEEB code---I chose homeschooling teacher or whatever the wording is). I had to tick a few boxes, I think, and then uploaded the syllabus. A day or two later it was approved, giving me access to all kinds of resources :)

 

Is there anything wrong with using one of their sample syllabi?  I was just looking at a few, and they are so convenient; a great roadmap to getting through the material in one year.  Why re-invent the wheel, unless it would raise suspicions by the people at AP central?  (Suspicions of what?  That I prefer to do less work than more work?)

 

If you didn't use one of their sample syllabi, why not?  

 

Thanks for your help!  You've really inspired me to get moving on this.  

[Luckymama]

Is there anything wrong with using one of their sample syllabi? I was just looking at a few, and they are so convenient; a great roadmap to getting through the material in one year. Why re-invent the wheel, unless it would raise suspicions by the people at AP central? (Suspicions of what? That I prefer to do less work than more work?)

 

If you didn't use one of their sample syllabi, why not?

 

Thanks for your help! You've really inspired me to get moving on this.

Of course you can use a sample syllabus! That's offered as an option.

 

I created my own syllabus for Physics B for a few reasons: (1) I had to write many of my own labs because I don't have the equipment of a good physics lab; (2) I wanted to tailor the class to dd's knowledge (last year she self-studied a great portion of algebra-based electricity and magnetism, so I could go a bit faster through those chapters); and most importantly (3) by going through the process, selecting and working through problems, I reviewed physics :D

 

I knew which book I was going to use so I searched for resources and approved syllabi and found s wealth of information :)

[snowbeltmom]

What information is included in the report?  

I have purchased the released exams from the College Board to use as additional test prep for my oldest.  The booklet includes a breakdown of each question stating the percentage of students in each score band who got that particular question correct.

 

I wonder if this is the report people are referring to?  I would be surprised if the College Board actually provided a breakdown of scores for each individual teacher for her own class, but maybe it does.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Maybe the answer is obvious and I am just dense, but what benefit would there be in receiving the full score?

I mean, it's not as if one would have the student re-study for, and retake, the exam a year later if they missed the 5 by a question... or would you?

 

I took a look at the directions for score reports over on the CB Professionals side. The reports are pretty close hold. I think they are designed to give a district, school or teacher feedback about individuals and the group as a whole. But it's worth noting that a teacher isn't supposed to view the report even for other sections of the course within the same school (ex, if there were two AP English teachers). There are also a lot of privacy obligations regarding the results of individual students.

 

I think this is the sort of feedback that would be helpful if you were teaching the class multiple times (either to younger kids in the family or to subsequent students in your class). But I don't think it would be all that helpful for the one off circumstances.

 

This assumes that you are using the actual AP exam as an additional item, not as part of the course grade.  (FWIW, I know students with an A in class but 2 on exams and other students with a B in class and a 4 on the exam. Grade and test performance don't necessarily correspond.)

[daijobu]

I created my own syllabus for Physics B for a few reasons: (1) I had to write many of my own labs because I don't have the equipment of a good physics lab; (2) I wanted to tailor the class to dd's knowledge (last year she self-studied a great portion of algebra-based electricity and magnetism, so I could go a bit faster through those chapters); and most importantly (3) by going through the process, selecting and working through problems, I reviewed physics :D

 

 

Thanks!  Having looked through a few syllabi more carefully, I see what you mean, and I see how I might also edit them for my student.  

 

ETA: Do you mention in your syllabus that this is a homeschool self-study course, say, in the "Course Overview" or "Teaching Strategies" section?  

[daijobu]

Maybe the answer is obvious and I am just dense, but what benefit would there be in receiving the full score?

I mean, it's not as if one would have the student re-study for, and retake, the exam a year later if they missed the 5 by a question... or would you?

 

I don't know, I'm just one of those people who enjoy analyzing things to death, and I'm just curious by nature.  If my student received a 4 instead of a 5, I wouldn't have them retake, but I would check to see if there were any gaps in knowledge that might need to be addressed.  Maybe a question was misunderstood or maybe my student ran out of time?  

 

I believe there is a lot of value in reviewing test questions after the exam.

 

I wouldn't mind so much, were it not for the fact that the teacher/administrator has more detailed information about my student's performance than I do.  

 

Of course, I've never actually seen one of these reports before, so I don't actually know what it contains.  

[AFwife Claire]

Maybe the answer is obvious and I am just dense, but what benefit would there be in receiving the full score?

I mean, it's not as if one would have the student re-study for, and retake, the exam a year later if they missed the 5 by a question... or would you?

I would have loved to see what questions my students missed, especially if there was a trend.  That would have helped me evaluate my teaching last year more constructively, I think, especially since it was a new test, and since I will be teaching it again. 

 

I got my AP biology syllabus approved last year, but not until the very end of the school year--right before the AP exam, in fact, so it was too late to call my course "AP".  But why I went ahead and got it approved then was because I desperately wanted access to the College Board-released practice exam for the brand spankin' new biology exam.  I got it, so my 4 students were able to use it to prepare, which was very helpful for them.

 

So I knew I would have no access to any breakdown of scores for sure last year.  But the next time I teach the class (next year), I still don't think I'll be able to have access.  Your child will put down the homeschool code on his AP exam, just like every other homeschooler in your state.  How on earth would his test ever be matched up to you as a teacher?  and that's why places like PA Homeschoolers don't get score reports either.  Their students are all just "homeschooled", not lumped together in one group with a special code.  I think, like Sebastian said, the school districts (most of whom have "AP coordinator" positions) receive the score reports and give them to the teachers. 

 

As far as putting together a syllabus, it took a bit of time, but it was not undoable, for sure.  I even went ahead and put one together for AP US Government this year, which my son is just self-studying!  Both times I got the syllabi approved in about an hour.  I was very careful to point out exactly how I was fulfilling each and every curriculum requirement in the guidelines. 

[daijobu]

 

 But the next time I teach the class (next year), I still don't think I'll be able to have access.  Your child will put down the homeschool code on his AP exam, just like every other homeschooler in your state.  How on earth would his test ever be matched up to you as a teacher?  and that's why places like PA Homeschoolers don't get score reports either.  Their students are all just "homeschooled", not lumped together in one group with a special code. 

 

That's a drag, and unfair, I think.  Is there an opportunity to enter a unique code that isn't the homeschooler code?  

 

For example, one way to legally homeschool in California is to set up your own private school.  If I did that, I wonder if I could request my own unique CEEB code?  

[snowbeltmom]

 

So I knew I would have no access to any breakdown of scores for sure last year.  But the next time I teach the class (next year), I still don't think I'll be able to have access.  Your child will put down the homeschool code on his AP exam, just like every other homeschooler in your state.  How on earth would his test ever be matched up to you as a teacher?  and that's why places like PA Homeschoolers don't get score reports either.  Their students are all just "homeschooled", not lumped together in one group with a special code. 

My son took a class through PA Homeschoolers last year.  He was given an AP code to use that was different than the homeschool code.  I am 99% sure that the teacher for the PA Homeschooler class received a score report for her students.  I don't have any idea if it went into any detail beyond the actual AP score though.

[Luckymama]

ETA: Do you mention in your syllabus that this is a homeschool self-study course, say, in the "Course Overview" or "Teaching Strategies" section?

Nope! It's not a self-study course as I am actively teaching dd.