Slut shaming, bullying, abuse, sexual assault. Typical teens.

[Tangerine]

Yes. This is where I must diverge. Is this a social construct? If we thought in the inverse, of women doing the "enveloping" so to speak, would it change things?

[BYE]

Huh? That makes not sense. You could also say that she shouldn't be taking off her pants, or spreading her legs before she makes sure she isn't committing a crime. She is after all the one wrapping her vagina around his penis. She has to 'let' him in.

 

Neither of those makes NO sense to me.

 

 

 

Sorry, I vote for Equal responsibility.

She had to let him in?! Ummmm.....no she doesn't. That's why this is an issue to begin with?

[Tap]

She had to let him in?! Ummmm.....no she doesn't. That's why this is an issue to begin with?

That is what I am saying.  It doesn't make sense to blame one or the other, just because one penetrated the other.  A guy can be raped, by having something put around his penis.    Since, he was the one 'penetrating' he should be more liable?

[BYE]

Yes. This is where I must diverge. Is this a social construct? If we thought in the inverse, of women doing the "enveloping" so to speak, would it change things?

If woman were the more common natural aggressors then we would be talking about protecting men. This is laughable. "vaginas enveloping penis'".

[BYE]

That is what I am saying. It doesn't make sense to blame one or the other, just because one penetrated the other. A guy can be raped, by having something put around his penis. Since, he was the one 'penetrating' he should be more liable?

My original statement was penetrator. And I was careful to say it that way because I know that men can be victims too. That's why I said the penetrator has the burden to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

[Tangerine]

I'm not sure why it is laughable. I asked if you were speaking from a purely physical standpoint, or a social one to better understand your position and further the discussion. Way to shut that down.

[Murphy101]

Well I do. I think it's been about long enough that we've had to teach our daughters to protect themselves. And it's about time we told our sons to keep their penis in their pants if alcohols involved. There should be a greater burden on men for a change.

Okie dokie. Well I flat out discard that idea. Going from one wrong idea to a wrong idea in the opposing direction is not change at all. It's just inflicting the same wrong to someone else.

[Murphy101]

Not to mention that as Joanne noted not all sex act are penetrating.

[BYE]

I'm not sure why it is laughable. I asked if you were speaking from a purely physical standpoint, a social one to better understand your position and further the discussion. Way to shut that down.

That's not what I meant to do. I was confused by the previous posters comments. I don't pretend to know the answer to every situation. But the most common situation is that a man violates a woman. And I don't believe that mutual drunkenness should even be considered. In those situation I believe the burden should fall to the penetrator.

[Free]

Ok, since I find myself unable to let this go, here is another article I found about shame.
http://psychcentral.com/lib/shame-the-quintessential-emotion/000730?all=1
 
From the article:

Shame is not productive, Kipnis says. “Shame tends to direct individuals into destructive behaviors. When we focus on what we did wrong, we can correct it; but when we’re convinced that we are wrong as a result of shame, our whole sense of self is eroded.â€

Typically, females have dealt with shame through introversion and self-hate while males have been more likely to exhibit extreme anger and violence.

[Tap]

My original statement was penetrator. And I was careful to say it that way because I know that men can be victims too. That's why I said the penetrator has the burden to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

Maybe we define penetrator differently.  To me it means something that  goes into something else.  Men can be raped by men or women, not anally, but physically with hands, mouths and vaginas.  The woman doesn't have to penetrate to rape.

[Murphy101]

And I don't believe that mutual drunkenness should even be considered. In those situation I believe the burden should fall to the penetrator.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

[BYE]

Maybe we define penetrator differently. To me it means something that goes into something else. Men can be raped by men or women, not anally, but physically with hands, mouths and vaginas. The woman doesn't have to penetrate to rape.

Like I said to a previous poster, I don't pretend to know the answer to EVERY situation. However, the situation of a woman raping a man with her vagina is very rare. The most common is a penetration type situation, male or female. And more often than not, "boys will be boys" is the common answer. And even more common is "she shouldn't have dressed that way". Those attitudes are sending us backwards.

[Tangerine]

I think that is really interesting, because I just truly don't think of sex at all in those terms. I realize that we are talking about assault, and maybe that is where I lose the ability to connect. But when I think of consensual vaginal sex, I don't at all view it in terms of "one doing something TO someone else." I think of two people being equally participatory in a sex act, regardless of who is entering or being entered.

[swimmermom3]

That is what I am saying.  It doesn't make sense to blame one or the other, just because one penetrated the other.  A guy can be raped, by having something put around his penis.    Since, he was the one 'penetrating' he should be more liable?

 

I am utterly lost. How often are guys more drunk than the girl and there is a problem? The part in bold????

 

Oh. On second thought, wasn't there an incident recently with rapper Chris Brown on stage with a fan? I remember one of the female rappers calling the situation 'sexual assault." Hmmm, but no alcohol involved there.

 

Again, why would blame be assigned anywhere if no criminal action took place?

 

Is the underlying current that as mothers, we are equally afraid of sons being wrongly accused of assault as we are of daughters being assaulted?

[Murphy101]

Like I said to a previous poster, I don't pretend to know the answer to EVERY situation. However, the situation of a woman raping a man with her vagina is very rare. The most common is a penetration type situation, male or female. And more often than not, "boys will be boys" is the common answer. And even more common is "she shouldn't have dressed that way". Those attitudes are sending us backwards.

Actually I have no idea how rare it is. I would bet money that most men would feel they couldn't report it without being made the laughing stock of the town. (Which I think is wrong too.)

 

What do we call it when a woman "takes advantage" of a man? Many would say he just got lucky. I wouldn't. But many would I bet.

 

Sigh. Because society sucks rotten eggs. :(

[Joanne]

Yes I am suggesting that. In fact, I'm stating it. One person is being penetrated and another is doing the penetrating. The penetrator has a responsibility to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

 

Sexual assault is about MUCH more than "penetration".

[Murphy101]

I am utterly lost. How often are guys more drunk than the girl and there is a problem?

 

Again, why would blame be assigned anywhere if no criminal action took place?

 

Is the underlying current that as mothers, we are equally afraid of sons being wrongly accused of assault as we are of daughters being assaulted?

If drunk means they can't consent, then wouldn't a woman knowing she is having sex with a drunk man be rape? What do you mean "and there is a problem?" To my mind, a woman having sex with a man she knows is drunk and may not be using his best judgement or any judgement is not one bit different than if a man did that with a drunk woman.

 

Blame would be assigned in this hypothetical because a crime, though almost never reported, was committed. It's just not at all acceptable in our society for a man to go to police and charge that he was taken advantage of while drunk.

[swimmermom3]

Maybe we define penetrator differently.  To me it means something that  goes into something else.  Men can be raped by men or women, not anally, but physically with hands, mouths and vaginas.  The woman doesn't have to penetrate to rape.

 

But the numbers are that 99% of the rapists in the United States are men.  One in four female college students have been raped. So all of the questions about equal responsibility in mutually drunken situations are about an incredibly tiny amount of the reported cases of rape, no?

 

[Tap]

Maybe this would be an easier analogy to think of .  A man is drunk and semi conscious.  Without his lucid consent, man or woman puts his/her mouth on his flaccid member trying to arouse him.  How is that not rape? And yes, it does happen.  And for a myriad of reasons it is often not reported.   Maybe he didn't feel victimized.  Maybe he is mortified and can't bring himself to press charges.  Again, the same reasons women don't report.

[jewellsmommy]

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

 

I can understand where you're coming from with this line of thinking, but I think it may be a knee-jerk reaction. KWIM?

 

I think we should teach and impress upon our children that both parties that are about to participate in a sexual interaction need to be respectful and conscientious of their partner. They need to be sure 1.that they are sure that they want to participate in the event, 2. their partner wants to, 3. that both are sound enough to make that decision, and 4. are they prepared for the outcome of that event.

[swimmermom3]

If drunk means they can't consent, then wouldn't a woman knowing she is having sex with a drunk man be rape? What do you mean "and there is a problem?" To my mind, a woman having sex with a man she knows is drunk and may not be using his best judgement or any judgement is not one bit different than if a man did that with a drunk woman.

 

Blame would be assigned in this hypothetical because a crime, though almost never reported, was committed. It's just not at all acceptable in our society for a man to go to police and charge that he was taken advantage of while drunk.

 

Ah. So he is operational, but not "thoughtful," correct? Then "yes" to the part in bold. Now I get what you are saying.

 

Yes, I know. It's about time. :tongue_smilie: I swear chemistry and AP Euro facts have replaced some of the more useful parts of my brain today.

 

[swimmermom3]

 

When “Drunk Sex†Clearly IS Rape, and More Thoughts on Alcohol and Consent

 

Posted on

July 13, 2010by Sarah M

 

Because we focus on college campuses, the issue of alcohol and sexual assault comes up constantly, and often by guys who are on the defensive. It’s actually a really complicated piece of the discourse around sexual assault that we don’t talk about nearly enough, this anger over whether or not “drunk sex†is rape—at its worst, the defensive argument is the idea that women who get drunk and have sex often “cry rape†afterward because they regret what happened. On the other side of the spectrum is what I think is a genuine confusion about how drunk is too drunk, that makes some guys really scared, and ultimately that fear can lead to really hostile defensiveness. Somewhere in the middle is a mixture of carelessness, entitlement, and lack of communication (based in a lot of fucked up history and the fact that we don’t talk about consent and sex openly with young people) that enables rape because one person never even really stopped to think about what their partner even wants, not to mention how intoxicated they actually are.

 

The bad news is, there isn’t one test to tell when someone is too intoxicated to consent to sex. (Well, maybe there is—one could make an argument about blood alcohol content perhaps, but college students don’t carry breathalyzers last time I checked so let’s move along). And so when we talk about alcohol and consent, it’s a conversation about open communication with your partner if they’ve been drinking—checking in with them, making sure they are enthusiastically, affirmatively consenting to whatever you’re doing together. Clearly people are sometimes going to get drunk and have sex. And the presence of alcohol in someone’s bloodstream does not automatically make it rape. But there’s a spectrum of intoxication. If someone is physically impaired by their drinking (or drug use), you can tell. They are getting sick, their body is limp, they’re not able to communicate clearly with you. It’s a common sense situation. If it’s less obvious, you know they have been drinking but you’re not sure how much and they seem OK, that’s where communication is key, and honestly—if it’s unclear how drunk your partner is and you feel conflicted, then maybe just play it safe and don’t do it. Instincts are there for a reason. You’ll have another chance to have sex, but sexual assault is permanent. [As a side note, I love this piece at Scarleteen about how men know if someone is giving consent or not, and I highly recommend it.]

 

 

 

The article goes on. Thoughts anyone?

 

[Free]

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

 

I do not think such a view will hold up in court. I would think that to establish rape has occurred, it would have to be shown that one party took advantage of the other's inebriated state.

 

When “Drunk Sex†Clearly IS Rape, and More Thoughts on Alcohol and Consent

 

I really do like this article swimmermom, thanks for posting this. I especially like this part:

Two drunk people having sex should be aware enough of the other person to have a sense of what is or isn’t consent because they’ve been raised to respect other people, and it’s second nature to them to check and make sure their partner is involved.

[marbel]

But the numbers are that 99% of the rapists in the United States are men.  One in four female college students have been raped. So all of the questions about equal responsibility in mutually drunken situations are about an incredibly tiny amount of the reported cases of rape, no?

 

 

How many of those rapes were date rape, in which (here we go again) both parties were drunk and unable to give and/or withhold and/or discern consent? 

 

I think that is really important.  If two kids get it on at or after a party while both are drunk, and the girl gets up in the morning and realizes she didn't mean to do that, or regrets it, she can charge the boy with rape. 

 

It really does put the burden on the male to be aware and alert at all times. 

 

Parents need to teach their boys that they are held to a higher standard of behavior when it comes to sex. 

 

(This is a separate issue from predator males who take advantage of girls, brag about it, share photos of the event, etc. I am not talking about that at all.  I'm also not saying boys will be boys or all girls who have sex are sluts.  I'm talking about two drunk, stupid kids operating on alcohol and hormones.) 

 

ETA: I'm teaching my kids that they both need to be aware and alert at all times.  I've been drunk enough to be unable to manage myself; that's one mistake I hope to spare my kids. 

[Scarlett]

 

Ok, since I find myself unable to let this go, here is another article I found about shame.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/shame-the-quintessential-emotion/000730?all=1

 

From the article:

 

 

 

<<<Ok, since I find myself unable to let this go, here is another article I found about shame.

http://psychcentral....on/000730?all=1

 

From the article:

Quote

Shame is not productive, Kipnis says. “Shame tends to direct individuals into destructive behaviors. When we focus on what we did wrong, we can correct it; but when we’re convinced that we are wrong as a result of shame, our whole sense of self is eroded.â€

 

Quote

Typically, females have dealt with shame through introversion and self-hate while males have been more likely to exhibit extreme anger and violence.>>>>>

 

I couldn't get the quote feature to capture the above comment so I pasted it in....

 

I am not understanding his definition of shame. He first says it is not productive and then says a person should focus on what they did wrong so as to correct it. That seems contradictory to me.

[BYE]

<<<Ok, since I find myself unable to let this go, here is another article I found about shame.

http://psychcentral....on/000730?all=1

 

From the article:

Quote

Shame is not productive, Kipnis says. “Shame tends to direct individuals into destructive behaviors. When we focus on what we did wrong, we can correct it; but when we’re convinced that we are wrong as a result of shame, our whole sense of self is eroded.â€

 

Quote

Typically, females have dealt with shame through introversion and self-hate while males have been more likely to exhibit extreme anger and violence.>>>>>

 

I couldn't get the quote feature to capture the above comment so I pasted it in....

 

I am not understanding his definition of shame. He first says it is not productive and then says a person should focus on what they did wrong so as to correct it. That seems contradictory to me.

I was thinking that the difference was something along these lines...shame is a feeling about the worth of the person which is different than feeling guilty about a particular action. But I could be wrong.

[Scarlett]

I was thinking that the difference was something along these lines...shame is a feeling about the worth of the person which is different than feeling guilty about a particular action. But I could be wrong.

Well this is how Merriam Webster on line dictionary defines shame

 

 

>>>1shame noun \ˈshÄm\

: a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong

 

: ability to feel guilt, regret, or embarrassment

 

: dishonor or disgrace>>>>>

 

The above is the definition of shame I had in mind when discussing her behavior earlier in the evening. The poor decisions she made (mainly drinking to extreme) put her in a very dangerous position and she was indeed harmed greatly. However, and this is an important point.....she should have felt the same amount of shame even if she was not raped.

 

The above comment of mine doesn't mean I I think she should have killed herself. It doesn't mean I think she should have felt her value as a human was diminished. It doesn't justify in ANY way the actions of the sick twisted boys who raped her or any of the people who failed to protect her that night.

[Reflections]

IMO, a woman, a girl, should be able to walk naked down Mainstreet during a keger and not have to fear being raped.

 

 

Here's my other thought if the above wasn't shocking enough... if we in the U.S. of A blame a little girl (14 is still very young) for being partially responsible for her rape and our "ideas" of clothing are a lot looser than some other countries... whose to blame in a country where showing an ankle is enticing? It's not our idea of enticing...well....over a 100 years ago it was.... so does the woman in that country share responsibility for the man's actions then?  What about when that man from that particular country lives here or in Europe and sees women in bikinis - should he only have partial blame for his actions because he couldn't help himself because of cultural differences?  What about the woman who was raised to believe it's okay to wear a bikini and is now being told  she is responsible for enticing the man?

[marbel]

IMO, a woman, a girl, should be able to walk naked down Mainstreet during a keger and not have to fear being raped.

 

 

Here's my other thought if the above wasn't shocking enough...<snip>

 

Why do you think that is shocking?   I can't imagine anyone disagree with that statement.

 

That doesn't mean I would tell my daughter (or anyone else's) that it would be OK to walk naked down Main Street.   I would still expect anyone walking naked down main street (male or female) to be cited for indecent exposure and given something to wear.  

[Serenade]

 

 

It really does put the burden on the male to be aware and alert at all times. 

 

Parents need to teach their boys that they are held to a higher standard of behavior when it comes to sex. 

 

 

 

Yes.

[Scarlett]

IMO, a woman, a girl, should be able to walk naked down Mainstreet during a keger and not have to fear being raped.

 

 

Here's my other thought if the above wasn't shocking enough... if we in the U.S. of A blame a little girl (14 is still very young) for being partially responsible for her rape and our "ideas" of clothing are a lot looser than some other countries... whose to blame in a country where showing an ankle is enticing? It's not our idea of enticing...well....over a 100 years ago it was.... so does the woman in that country share responsibility for the man's actions then? What about when that man from that particular country lives here or in Europe and sees women in bikinis - should he only have partial blame for his actions because he couldn't help himself because of cultural differences? What about the woman who was raised to believe it's okay to wear a bikini and is now being told she is responsible for enticing the man?

I keep saying this over and over....."I" am not suggesting any of what is in your above post. Maybe someone on this thread has said that, but it is not what I am saying....nor is it the sense I get from those on this thread.

 

All I am saying is we need to teach our kids, boys and girls, to stay out of dangerous situations. And drinking to passing out is one of those dangerous situations. The boys who raped her are still 100% responsible for their actions. And saying she should feel shame for her actions that night ( specifically drinking to passing out) is not saying she should have felt she should kill herself. I feel horrible for that girl that apparently so many people who should have protected her failed her.

[BYE]

I keep saying this over and over....."I" am not suggesting any of what is in your above post. Maybe someone on this thread has said that, but is not what I am saying....nor is it the sense I get from those on this thread.

 

All I am saying is we need to teach our kids, boys and girls, to stay out of dangerous situations. And drinking to passing out is one of those dangerous situations. The boys who raped her are still 100% responsible for their actions. And saying she should feel shame for her actions that night ( specifically drinking to passing out) is not saying she should have felt she should kill herself. I feel horrible for that girl that apparently so many people who should have protected her failed her.

I think the reason people get this opinion that "someone is blaming the victim" is because the idea of shame was brought up at all. The idea of her being ashamed was brought up. Which meanswe still live in a society that believes she was to blame.

[sparrow]

A friend posted about this site on FB this morning. It is heartbreakingly appropriate to share in this conversation.

 

Project Unbreakable

 

 

The mission of Project Unbreakable is to increase awareness of the issues surrounding sexual assault and encourage the act of healing through art. Since the project's conception in October 2011 by then nineteen year old Grace Brown, it has featured over two thousand images of sexual assault survivors holding posters with quotes from their attackers. Project Unbreakable has been featured media outlets such as Glamour, TIME, The Huffington Post, and The Guardian.

 

[Scarlett]

I think the reason people get this opinion that "someone is blaming the victim" is because the idea of shame was brought up at all. The idea of her being ashamed was brought up. Which meanswe still live in a society that believes she was to blame.

Again, I believe she was to blame for her actions. She was not to blame for the actions of those who raped her.

 

The conversations now aren't meant to cause further pain to her or her parents. It is meant to be a warning example to all of us to help our kids see the dangers of certain activities and behaviors and associates.

[marbel]

I think the reason people get this opinion that "someone is blaming the victim" is because the idea of shame was brought up at all. The idea of her being ashamed was brought up. Which meanswe still live in a society that believes she was to blame.

If I recall correctly, shame was brought up as in "she should be ashamed" for lying to her parents, drinking illegally, etc - all actions she took on her own.   I don't recall anyone saying she should be ashamed about what was done to her.

 

I imagine it would be hard for a young woman in that situation to separate her own actions from what was done to her, particularly since she seemed to have no one to turn to.    There was failure on many levels in that situation. 

 

People keep saying over and over that the girl was not to blame for all the awful things that were done to her.  

 

Being ashamed of behavior and being ashamed of oneself as a person are different things.   But I think as some comments upthread indicate, there are a few different definitions and views of "shame" which makes it hard to talk about.

[swimmermom3]

We've missed the boat.

 

We've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how shameful Audrie Pott's behavior was the night she was assaulted and how that kind of shame is good for the soul - or not; we've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how in a mutually drunk situation, a girl was equally responsible with the guy for preventing her rape and making sure the boy isn't unfairly taken advantage of - I think.

 

What we failed to discuss the way in which those around Audrie behaved. In most of the recent cases that are similar to Audrie's, guys flocked in numbers to continue to prey on the victim, girls sided with the rapists or perpetrators, students of both sexes verbally destroyed the victim and often issued death threats, coaches and parents covered up the boys actions, and school and law enforcement officials were extremely slow to respond.

 

How do we change this culture? Carol in CA had some eloquent thoughts on the matter. Can we expound on those. We have GOT to change this culture. We may not be able to change the scenario of teens and drinking and sex, but I do believe we can change how we respond to it.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Again, I believe she was to blame for her actions. She was not to blame for the actions of those who raped her.

 

The conversations now aren't meant to cause further pain to her or her parents. It is meant to be a warning example to all of us to help our kids see the dangers of certain activities and behaviors and associates.

 

Maybe not, but I am fairly sure that the tone and intent of some of yesterday's post ripped the scabs off of a few of our rape survivors wounds.

 

[Scarlett]

We've missed the boat.

 

We've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how shameful Audrie Pott's behavior was the night she was assaulted and how that kind of shame is good for the soul - or not; we've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how in a mutually drunk situation, a girl was equally responsible with the guy for preventing her rape and making sure the boy isn't unfairly taken advantage of - I think.

 

What we failed to discuss the way in which those around Audrie behaved. In most of the recent cases that are similar to Audrie's, guys flocked in numbers to continue to prey on the victim, girls sided with the rapists or perpetrators, students of both sexes verbally destroyed the victim and often issued death threats, coaches and parents covered up the boys actions, and school and law enforcement officials were extremely slow to respond.

 

How do we change this culture? Carol in CA had some eloquent thoughts on the matter. Can we expound on those. We have GOT to change this culture. We may not be able to change the scenario of teens and drinking and sex, but I do believe we can change how we respond to it.

I agree. We do tend to get side tracked. As I have said before no one in my world would react the way Audries community did. So I can't even relate to that mentality. All I can think of is my moms famous quote 'stay away from people who make you feel bad'. But then again I have a support system that would rally behind me in that situation.

 

I quoted Carols post below in case anyone missed it.

 

  

The following is a true story about someone I know personally, although we have fallen out of touch.  She is about 35 now.

 

She is the middle child of 3, loved by all, a brother on either side of her in age.

 

She grew up out in the country in a place that was pretty darn boring.  Her father lived about 150 miles away--parents were divorced.  Her mother worked fulltime plus a lot of overtime.

 

When she was around 12, her mother's live in boyfriend started to molest her.  She told her mother, who kicked him out and took her to a psychiatrist.  The psychiatrist concluded that she made this up, that she had seen one too many made for TV movies.  The boyfriend moved back in.  Stuff continued to happen, and she decided that she was worthless and powerless.

 

When she entered high school she was strikingly attractive and a lot of fun to talk with.  She got invited to parties a lot.  No one questioned whether she could go, ever.  When she was 14 she got drunk at a party, and passed out.  When she woke up she was naked in bed with a guy she knew slightly, a used condom in evidence.  She left.  Every time she saw him in the halls she felt extremely self-conscious, like everyone knew, utterly embarrassed.  She couldn't stand it. 

 

Then one day when she was in class she had a nervous breakdown and started screaming and crying about the stepfather abusing her.  Finally the police were told.  They investigated.  He was arrested and a trial was scheduled.  She stopped going to school until she started to recover.  Her psychiatrist told her that it is very common for kids who were molested to be promiscuous--that that is normal.  She found this utterly embarrassing also.

 

The case against the stepfather finally resolved in a plea bargain--no contest.  3 month sentence.  3 months.

 

Nothing happened to the boy at the party.  Only the people he bragged to heard about that.

 

She decided to school herself from home on an independent study basis.  She could not fulfil foreign language or science requirements that way, but she couldn't bring herself to face the kids at school.  She was embarrassed about the stepfather, embarrassed about the party, and embarrassed to be so far behind her age cohorts.  At age 18 she went to see her school advisor to see what she had to do to graduate that year.  He told her that that was impossible, that she had at least 2- 2 1/2 years to go.  So she dropped out of school and became a waitress.

 

She has been married twice already.  She works in a bar.  I think that she ended up getting a GED, a few years down the road.  No college, I don't believe. 

 

The things that were done to her completely derailed her life. 

 

Was she perfect?  No.  Should she have gotten drunk at a party at 14?  No. 

 

But I would argue that she should not have been at a party at 14 where that could happen.  She should not have been anywhere without a responsible adult in the picture.

 

She should have been protected differently than she was by quite a few adults in her life. 

 

And for me that is the main take away about all this stuff.  Adults need to be present, and they need to be the grownups and prevent literal harm to their and society's children.  They need to take courage and do what is right.  Our choices are not Gottherd or complete hands offness.  Damn it.

[Scarlett]

Maybe not, but I am fairly sure that the tone and intent of some of yesterday's post ripped the scabs off of a few of our rape survivors wounds.

 

So how do we have a conversation about keeping ourselves out of dangerous situations without ripping off scabs? Yes tone can be softened....but if something is foolish it is foolish....do we not mention a foolish action when great pain has come to a person who behaved foolishly?

[Joanne]

 

People keep saying over and over that the girl was not to blame for all the awful things that were done to her.  

 

 

If that is truly the case, support for Audrie needs to say "Oh, my. I am so sad that her teen years were so full of pain and that it ended the way it did."

 

And not.one.word.about clothes, drinking, lying to parents.

[Free]

Again, I believe she was to blame for her actions. She was not to blame for the actions of those who raped her.

 

The conversations now aren't meant to cause further pain to her or her parents. It is meant to be a warning example to all of us to help our kids see the dangers of certain activities and behaviors and associates.

 

She is to blame for attracting the attention of the boys with her see through clothes and her drinking? You do realize there are women and girls who wear burka and never step out of their homes and are still raped by their fathers?

 

[swimmermom3]

I was thinking that the difference was something along these lines...shame is a feeling about the worth of the person which is different than feeling guilty about a particular action. But I could be wrong.

 

No, I think this would be the correct interpretation. The difference is "My decision to drink and drive was a poor choice," versus "I am a piece of crap because I drank and drove." 

 

Well this is how Merriam Webster on line dictionary defines shame

 

 

>>>1shame noun \ˈshÄm\

: a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong

 

: ability to feel guilt, regret, or embarrassment

 

: dishonor or disgrace>>>>>

 

The above is the definition of shame I had in mind when discussing her behavior earlier in the evening. The poor decisions she made (mainly drinking to extreme) put her in a very dangerous position and she was indeed harmed greatly. However, and this is an important point.....she should have felt the same amount of shame even if she was not raped.

 

The above comment of mine doesn't mean I I think she should have killed herself. It doesn't mean I think she should have felt her value as a human was diminished. It doesn't justify in ANY way the actions of the sick twisted boys who raped her or any of the people who failed to protect her that night.

 

The problem with the word "shame" is not in its denotation, but in its powerful connotations. For many women, "shame" connected to rape has exceptionally powerful and ugly, ugly meanings. It's partly why Bethany triggered some strong reactions yesterday.

[marbel]

So how do we have a conversation about keeping ourselves out of dangerous situations without ripping off scabs? Yes tone can be softened....but if something is foolish it is foolish....do we not mention a foolish action when great pain has come to a person who behaved foolishly?

 

It's just hard in this rather public venue not to hurt someone.  But it makes the conversation difficult if people aren't willing to believe that we're all acting in good faith when we express opinions.  I don't believe anyone on this board intends to hurt someone with their words.  But sometimes hard words are needed.

 

But our private conversations with our kids can be different.  I can tell my kids Audrie's story.  They need to hear these stories.  The only way our kids can learn about this is if we talk to them about it.   Not to shame anyone but to instruct those who are coming up.  We can give meaning to Audrie's sad, short life and death by telling her story to our own teens in the hope and faith that we can save others.  

 

My kids hate talking about this stuff.  But we do it anyway.   I don't claim to have a guarantee that by talking to my kids I'll prevent this sort of thing happening.  But there's a better chance of it if we do talk about it.  And part of telling the story is telling what mistakes Audrie made in the first place.  That is not blaming her for the assault!  But I think it would be a disservice to our children to deny that she made mistakes that night. 

 

I want my kids not to lie to me about where they are going. I want my kids to be discerning about the people they hang out with, and I want them to call me if they are in a bad situation and know they need to get out.  I expect my kids to obey the law and not drink till they are of legal age.  I hope they will learn how to drink responsibly so neither of them is ever out of control.  Or, determine that they just won't drink at all.  I want them to speak up for people who are being mistreated and not be part of the victimizer group.  I want them to be strong enough to say "stop" and to call in adults when things get out of hand, even at the risk of their popularity. 

 

Isn't that what everyone wants for their kids? 

 

Can't happen if we don't talk about it.

[Caroline]

 Both her and the boys did things they shouldn't have. 

I don't think it's fair to say that the girl has NO responsibility for what happened to her in this situation. SHE chose to go to the party, knowing that she did not have parental permission to go. SHE chose to get drunk, knowing that she shouldn't even be drinking at all in the first place. I'm sure she knew that she'd lose control of her faculties once drunk. We all know that. And then those boys CHOSE to violate her. They ALL did things they shouldn't have. 

 

She should be ashamed. I did some very similar things when I was just a few years older than this girl. And yes, I am now very ashamed of them. Those boys should be ashamed. Regardless of how drunk a girl is, you shouldn't be taking naked pictures of her and showing them to your friends. I just don't get how it is that we're supposed to teach our boys that girls can be as slutty and falling down drunk as they want, but you'd better be completely responsible every single second. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. EVERYONE should be taking care to be responsible for themselves AND each other.

 

Scarlett, the bolded is what we are reacting to. She is not responsible for what the boys did to her. But this post clearly states that she is responsible for what happened to her.

 

My boys are responsible for their actions, no matter how "slutty and falling down drunk" a girl is. My sons are responsible for their own actions. Not any girl. 

 

This young girl was in no way responsible for what the boys did to her.

[Scarlett]

She is to blame for attracting the attention of the boys with her see through clothes and her drinking? You do realize there are women and girls who wear burka and never step out of their homes and are still raped by their fathers?

No. That is not what I said. I said she was to blame for drinking to excess, passing out...which In turn put her in a dangerous situation.

 

A woman in a country where she is not allowed to leave the house has no way of preventing being raped by a sick father. I am sure if she had the option of removing herself from that situation she would.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Moderator
Defend your POV but don't attack.

[BYE]

We've missed the boat.

 

We've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how shameful Audrie Pott's behavior was the night she was assaulted and how that kind of shame is good for the soul - or not; we've spent an inordinate amount of time discussing how in a mutually drunk situation, a girl was equally responsible with the guy for preventing her rape and making sure the boy isn't unfairly taken advantage of - I think.

 

What we failed to discuss the way in which those around Audrie behaved. In most of the recent cases that are similar to Audrie's, guys flocked in numbers to continue to prey on the victim, girls sided with the rapists or perpetrators, students of both sexes verbally destroyed the victim and often issued death threats, coaches and parents covered up the boys actions, and school and law enforcement officials were extremely slow to respond.

 

How do we change this culture? Carol in CA had some eloquent thoughts on the matter. Can we expound on those. We have GOT to change this culture. We may not be able to change the scenario of teens and drinking and sex, but I do believe we can change how we respond to it.

Parental guidance and a change in how society views this issue. But clearly that isn't going to happen anytime soon because some of the people in Audrie's community claimed that it was a"prank". This is tough and I'm equally scared for my dd and ds's future.

[Scarlett]

If that is truly the case, support for Audrie needs to say "Oh, my. I am so sad that her teen years were so full of pain and that it ended the way it did."

 

And not.one.word.about clothes, drinking, lying to parents.

That IS what I would say to her or her family. But THIS conversation, here, on THIS board is about the big picture and ways we can keep our kids safe.

[Joanne]

Bethany Niez, on 19 Sept 2013 - 5:49 PM, said:

I  I just don't get how it is that we're supposed to teach our boys that girls can be as slutty and falling down drunk as they want, but you'd better be completely responsible every single second. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. EVERYONE should be taking care to be responsible for themselves AND each other.

 

 

The words "slutty as they want" suggests that it is correlated with another person's choice to commit a crime and violate. It is not correlated. There is not a cause and effect. "Slutty" itself suggests and implies evaluation, judgment, and shaming.

 

Audrie dressed however she dressed. She drank whatever she drank. She told her parents whatever she told them.

 

None, not one bit of that, matters in terms of the boys violating her and then continuing to violate her in social media and cell phone communication.

 

A human should be able to dress in any manner and be safe from sexual assault. Period. That's as true for strippers as it is for Mennonite, Amish, or Muslim persons.

 

[Joanne]

Parental guidance and a change in how society views this issue. But clearly that isn't going to happen anytime soon because some of the people in Audrie's community claimed that it was a"prank". This is tough and I'm equally scared for my dd and ds's future.

 

One of the moms of one of the boys said "Audrie's been messed up." That is some twisted thinking.