Afraid of making mistake in choosing math curriculum...

[DoraBora]

I have a son who is in 6^th grade.  He loves math and wants to be an engineer (right now, anyway…).  He is just about to finish Singapore Primary (6B) and MUS Pre-Algebra.  MUS is very easy for him, and he has also flown through Singapore.  I want to challenge him, but he may not be as advanced as I think, and I don’t want to overwhelm him.

 

I feel shaky about making this choice because I think I made a mistake with his sister, who used the same curriculums when she was younger.  Following MUS Pre-Algebra and Singapore 6B, I placed her in Foerster’s Algebra using the Math Without Borders companion DVD.  It didn’t go well.  In fact, it was a beating.  I am not terribly strong in math, but my husband is an Electrical Engineer, so I had a little help when he was not traveling on business.  We had to work through almost every exercise several times and she was still making B’s and C’s, so I switched to Videotext.  It has worked well for her, but I feel badly about the whole thing because I think I messed her up.

 

Anyway, I don’t want to make a similar mistake with my son by placing him in a curriculum that’s too hard for him, but I want him to be well prepared for engineering school if that’s what he still wants.  If he could still love math when it's all said and done, that would be a bonus.

 

I have been looking at Art of Problem Solving.  Does anyone know how long most of the courses in AoPS take for reasonably strong math students?  Do each of them take one year?  If so, how do most users plug in the Number Theory and Counting and Probability curriculums?   Are those “extras†(nice, but not really necessary for high school)?  Do students work on those while also completing another course (Geometry or Pre-Calculus)?  How do you know what to work on and what to leave out?  Is there any way to know in advance if I am on the wrong track?

 

Thank you for any insight you are willing to share…

[Julie of KY]

I'm not sure if AoPS is the right choice for your son, but if you choose it, I thought I'd pass on some comments.

 

I'd probably start with the prealgebra book. It's a good introduction to AoPS. It's not impossible to jump into the algebra book. My oldest went from Singapore 5 to the AoPS Algebra book, but there was not a prealgebra book at the time. He also lives and breathes math. My second son is doing the prealgebra book and it has been challenging for him.

 

If you take an online course with AoPS, the pace is rapid and takes a lot of time, but you do go through the books faster. At my home, anything we can do with the books, we will without the online course.

 

Intro to Algebra is usually considered algebra 1 and most/all of algebra 2. Many people do this book over more than one year. The geometry book is often considered the hardest of the intro books, but my oldest didn't find it so. The geometry book is a long, hard book.

 

Intro to Number Theory and Intro to Counting are both fun extras. They can be done in about 1/2 a year for a strong math student. They are not necessary for the average high school student.

 

My son tends to work on two or three of the books at the same time. He easily does more than one credit of math per year. For a strong, math-loving student, that is how many fit in all the books. AoPS is a real blessing to those students who are craving to be taught more math at a deep level.

 

AoPS is a fabulous preparation for engineering, but certainly not the only route to a strong math background.

[Candid]

I would probably not, given your concerns, enroll him in an online AoPS course since those move very rapidly and don't go a full school year. Instead you can use the materials on your own. They are designed to be self teaching.

 

BUT as some one who did Singapore and continued on to their NEM series, I want to strongly encourage you to consider their upper level programs. NEM is out of print all the way through so I think you will want to consider the DM series. 

[Mom22ns]

I would not consider MUS Pre-Algebra to be sufficient preparation for a challenging Algebra curriculum like Foerester's or AoPS. Instead, consider it as the final course in the Elementary series. I would either move on to MUS Algebra and use it as a Pre-Algebra course or choose another more challenging Pre-Algebra, before switching to Foerester's Algebra. Or if you think AoPS would be a good fit, start AoPS at pre-algebra as Julie suggested.

 

Just for perspective, older ds used MUS through Geometry and switched to Lial's at Algebra 2 (no problem with the switch). Younger dd used MUS half way through Algebra and switched to Lial's with no problem, but did get bogged down at the end of Lial's because she struggled to put all the concepts together and wasn't used to the level of word problems. Our experience leads me to think switching from MUS works just fine if going to a standard level math, but probably needs to go a level down for a very advanced math curriculum.

[klmama]

He's very young, so there's really not a rush to get into tough high school level courses yet.  You want him to have a solid foundation.  Maybe she'll chime in herself later, but I remember 8filltheheart saying her kids use MUS algebra and geometry as a pre-algebra course before moving on to Foerster's Algebra.  If he did that over 6th and 7th, he'd still be ready for Foerster's by 8th, and he could still get through calculus before graduating high school. 

[PeterPan]

I would not consider MUS Pre-Algebra to be sufficient preparation for a challenging Algebra curriculum 

I'll ditto this and say you probably just needed more time doing pre-algebra.  Dolciani has a good one.  BJU has an AWESOME new edition Pre-Algebra.  You're going from one publisher's sequence to another, so there are going to be some differences.  Most kids do a math 7, which is 1/2 a year of reviewing basic math with more complex problems and another 1/2 year doing pre-algebra.  It seems like the prominent flavor on of advice on the boards has been that pre-algebra is skippable, math 7 is unnecessary, blah blah, but it's really an important stage for a lot of kids.  This is an age where some go foggy or are growing fast.  Some of the newer algebra books out there jump in with both feet, and a student who hasn't had a solid pre-algebra isn't going to do well.  I know David C. says you don't need it for Foerster, but there you see how it turned out.  ;)  

 

Here's a link where you can see an entire chapter of the BJU pre-algebra new edition.  It's really good stuff and will definitely be a step up from anything you've done.  Notice their C level problems and Dominion Math sections.  If you need help teaching, the new videos for it are supposed to be terrific.  

http://www.bjupresshomeschool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Pre-Algebra-Student-Text--2nd-ed.____2242822

[JanetC]

I have been looking at Art of Problem Solving. Does anyone know how long most of the courses in AoPS take for reasonably strong math students? Do each of them take one year? If so, how do most users plug in the Number Theory and Counting and Probability curriculums?

 

Do not believe that just because you pick this vendor for your curriculum that you need to do every single book they offer! The books take different amounts of time -- Intro to Algebra usually takes about two years, and includes both Algebra I and Algebra II. I believe the first Number Theory book is only about a semester. Evaluate what book to do next based on your son's own interests and needs. Richard Rusczyk (company owner) answers emails and can advise you. Some kids are using this as a solid college-prep math program, others are prepping for elite math competitions and have different needs. Under the articles section, read about "The Calculus Trap" -- some of these special topics books are written specifically for students who are 13 and done with standard school math but not ready for calculus. They're really not for everyone.

Is there any way to know in advance if I am on the wrong track?

 

Create a free account on Alcumus, and have him do that for a week or two. Does he think it's horrid, OK, or great? My AOPS DD's reaction was, "Where has this math been all my life???" It was completely obvious that this was the approach for her!

[regentrude]

 

 

I have been looking at Art of Problem Solving.  Does anyone know how long most of the courses in AoPS take for reasonably strong math students?  Do each of them take one year?  If so, how do most users plug in the Number Theory and Counting and Probability curriculums?   Are those “extras†(nice, but not really necessary for high school)?  Do students work on those while also completing another course (Geometry or Pre-Calculus)?  How do you know what to work on and what to leave out?  Is there any way to know in advance if I am on the wrong track?

 

AoPS Intro to Algebra is doable in one year only fro an exceptionally strong, motivated, and ambitious student. I had oneof those. The other was more typical and spent two years, which is perfectly fine: the content of a traditional algebra 1 course is covered in chapters 1-13, and doable in one year.

Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, precalc and Calc were all doable in one year.

 

Intro to C&P and Number theory are one semester each; they are material not typically taught in high school, are not a prerequisite for any of the subsequent math courses, and can be done for students who enjoy math, have extra time, want to do more math off the beaten path - but you can also choose not to do them at all (my DD did none, DS did C&P). So, yes, they are nice extras.

 

 

[Miss Marple]

My youngest 2 boys have used AoPS as well as Singapore DM.  The two oldest sons (used Singapore NEM) are engineers and do very well with maths.  My suggestion would be to continue with Singapore using the DM series.  We used AoPS as additional material to give a break from doing the same thing every day.  Really, only 2 of my boys would have done well using AoPS exclusively.

 

Remember that your son, if he chooses engineering, will be in class with many, many other students who used math texts that might not have met their learning style.  And they do fine.  I think we are too worried that we will harm our students future if we use the wrong material thereby placing an enormous burden on ourselves to choose "just the right program".  If your son is good with math, he'll be fine in college.  That said, my sons felt they were better at math than their college counterparts.  Was it the program?  Was it natural talent?  Probably both.

 

As to time for AoPS?  We never enrolled in any classes but opted to do it at home alone. That was a program that I did not schedule according to lessons.  Instead I had ds do at least 1 hour or 1 lesson, whichever was first.  If he wanted to continue after an hour to finish a lesson, he did.  If I had used it exclusively for our math, I would have considered using the online classes.

[kohlby]

My oldest started in MUS Alpha and went through until half-way through Alg I.  In MUS Alg I, he was making too many careless errors due to boredom.  Neither of us liked it though MUS had worked so well to get the basics down.  Plus, he's an advanced student and MUS makes it easy to go fast or slow, which worked great in the earlier books.  He switched over to AoPS Intro to Alg.  It was a struggle at first - but in a good way.  He needed to be reprogrammed that being smart in math isn't about it being easy and knowing all the answers, but it's about the struggle and working through it.  I had to sit by his side initially, but he was doing it mostly without me within a few months.  Since he's a younger student, we did not do Alg II right after.  Instead, he did Intro to Number Theory.  He loved it and it was easier than Alg I.  As for timing, we figure that out as we go.  It took him about 3/4 of a year for Alg I, then 1/2 a year for Intro to Number Theory and I expect 3/4 of a year for Alg II.  We took the break between Alg I and Alg II to give him some more time for math maturity.  We chose Number Theory because he was more interested in that course than the Probability one, though we have that one waiting for when/if he's interested in that. 

 

If you go the AoPS route, I'd suggest being careful of picking Pre-Algebra or Alg I.  Have him take the pre-tests.  Though my child did well starting Alg I, it seems like many redo Pre-Alg in AoPS if they switch at that point.  My oldest did have a small gap between MUS and AoPS, but he's a quick learner, so he easily caught up.  The biggest issue was getting him used to a different type of challenge.  Some kids will be ready for that.  Some will not.  Some may never be ready for that.  I strongly agree with trying out Alcumus.  My oldest enjoys the wonderful challenge while my middle child would likely be a stressed out teary mess if she ever tried it, even though she's a strong math student.  She wants to be shown how and replicate and be perfect.  My oldest sees math more of puzzles to figure out, which the perfect attitude for AoPS.

 

As for our final path, we do not know.  We're not doing the online courses since I want him to take his time.  The online courses are only one semester each for Alg I and Alg II and my child needed more.  Since your child is a 6th grader, I'd strongly suggest even more to take your time.  There's no reason that it needs to be rushed.  Next year, my child wants to take Geometry, but I'm not convinced that he's ready for AoPS, so we may be going into a different curriculum.  (I have a few I'm considering).  Then we'll figure out if he should redo Geometry using AoPS or move on to something else, whether intro to Probability, Pre-Calc, Trig, or something else. 

 

My oldest also wants to be an engineer.  His father is also an electrical engineer and I am a former middle/high school math teacher.  That's another reason we moved out of MUS.  Even with the honors pages, I could tell that MUS Alg I was below a college prep level Alg I.  It is important to me that he does honor level courses as a minimum, since he can handle it.  AoPS is above honors level - which is where I wonder about Geometry due to being a younger student.  When I taught, I found that the younger advanced students struggled more with proofs than the older average students.  They just didn't have the math maturity yet.  It's impossible to know how my child's math maturity will progress, so we're not looking ahead anymore than a year - and even that is up in the air.  My son does not work on more than one book at a time.  He's 10 years old and it's important to him that he has plenty of time for Minecraft and reading.  There are kids who want more and more and more.  Mine just wants to be challenged in what he does and have plenty of time for play.

[daijobu]

Intro to Algebra is usually considered algebra 1 and most/all of algebra 2. Many people do this book over more than one year. The geometry book is often considered the hardest of the intro books, but my oldest didn't find it so. The geometry book is a long, hard book.

 

 

 

Do you  happen to know, if Intro to Algebra covers Algebra 1 and 2, what school courses are covered in the AOPS Intermediate Algebra text?

[Julie of KY]

AoPS calls the Int. Algebra class Algebra 3 in their school classes. The Int. Algebra book covers many algebra 2 topics to a greater depth and goes further into algebra. On my transcript, I will call it Algebra 3 and give the course description as listed on the AoPS website.

[Julie in MN]

I feel shaky about making this choice because I think I made a mistake with his sister, who used the same curriculums when she was younger. 

...

 

How do you know what to work on and what to leave out?  Is there any way to know in advance if I am on the wrong track?

 

I don't think you made a mistake changing something up for your dd that wasn't working.  Maybe you waited it out longer than you should, but it's a great luxury to change things up as needed in homeschool.  Actually, even my public-schooled son had a ps teacher who realized he needed to change things up for him.

 

How do you know you're on the wrong track?  Well, you observe.  Too easy, taking less than an hour?  Too time-consuming?  Does your student understand your 3-minute explanations better than the chapter in the textbook?  Print something out online and see if the student can do the same problem in a different format.  Etc. etc.

 

My youngest sounds a bit like your ds (and his big brother is an engineer).  Youngest did Singapore and he used MUS as an extra in younger years.  Here's what's worked for him. 

 

7th: Singapore 6A/B and a ton of math facts through fractions (and I very briefly introduced negative numbers, although they didn't stick until he was using them in Algebra).

8th: Math Relief Algebra 1

9th: Geometry (Jacobs at first, then switched to Teaching Textbooks)

10th: Math Relief Algebra 2, then some AOPS (glad we tried it, found it's not for my particular son)

11th: College Alg. 3 & Precalc through dual enrollment

12th: Calculus through dual enrollment

 

Just one more experience,

Julie

 

[mumto2]

A pp suggested trying Alcumus which is a wonderful free program from AOPS on their website. My dc's both enjoy it. I would definately try that first. My dc's have for lack of a better desciption played with AOPS. The NEM / DM sequence has worked far better for us. We have used a whole assortment. ;)

[regentrude]

Do you  happen to know, if Intro to Algebra covers Algebra 1 and 2, what school courses are covered in the AOPS Intermediate Algebra text?

 

AoPS Intermediate Algebra covers topics that would be covered in Algebra 2 and in Precalculus.

AoPS Precalculus covers a lot of material that would not be covered in a typical precalculus class in school at all. Matrices and vectors in 3 d are covered extensively, and trigonometry goes into more depth.

 

I have, on my transcript, given credit for Algebra 1 for AoPS Intro to Algebra, Algebra 2 for Intermediate, and Precalculus for AoPS Precalc. I addressed the differences in content, compared to traditional school classes, in the course descriptions.

 

[daijobu]

AoPS Intermediate Algebra covers topics that would be covered in Algebra 2 and in Precalculus.

AoPS Precalculus covers a lot of material that would not be covered in a typical precalculus class in school at all. Matrices and vectors in 3 d are covered extensively, and trigonometry goes into more depth.

 

I have, on my transcript, given credit for Algebra 1 for AoPS Intro to Algebra, Algebra 2 for Intermediate, and Precalculus for AoPS Precalc. I addressed the differences in content, compared to traditional school classes, in the course descriptions.

 

 

This is interesting.  My high school didn't offer a class called "precalculus" so I'm not even sure what that means.  I had 2 algebra classes in school:  algebra (LOL) and a year long course titled "Advanced Algebra and Trigonometry."  I wonder if my AAT class would be considered what is now called Algebra 2 (or Algebra 3?) and precalculus?  

 

The typical 4 year math sequence at my  high school was:

 

geometry

functions + analytic geometry

advanced algebra and trig

calculus

[regentrude]

This is interesting.  My high school didn't offer a class called "precalculus" so I'm not even sure what that means.  I had 2 algebra classes in school:  algebra (LOL) and a year long course titled "Advanced Algebra and Trigonometry."  I wonder if my AAT class would be considered what is now called Algebra 2 (or Algebra 3?) and precalculus?  

 

The typical 4 year math sequence at my  high school was:

 

geometry

functions + analytic geometry

advanced algebra and trig

calculus

 

Algebra 1 usually covers linear equations, systems thereof, and quadratics. (In some schools, they don't even make it to quadratics.)

Algebra 2 would cover exponentials and logarithms and polynomials.

Precalculus contains one semester of trigonometry and one semester of topics like vectors and matrices and an introduction to series and sequences which is a prerequisite for calculus. Maybe your advanced algebra+trig was the same thing.

I am puzzled how you can have had geometry before algebra, since a high school level geometry course would require algebra.

 

[daijobu]

Algebra 1 usually covers linear equations, systems thereof, and quadratics. (In some schools, they don't even make it to quadratics.)

Algebra 2 would cover exponentials and logarithms and polynomials.

Precalculus contains one semester of trigonometry and one semester of topics like vectors and matrices and an introduction to series and sequences which is a prerequisite for calculus. Maybe your advanced algebra+trig was the same thing.

I am puzzled how you can have had geometry before algebra, since a high school level geometry course would require algebra.

 

Sorry, we took algebra in 8th grade.

[regentrude]

Sorry, we took algebra in 8th grade.

 

well, then your "functions and analytic geometry" would be algebra 2, and "advanced alg+trig" would correspond to precalculus.

[Elisabet1]

I have heard great about Thinkwell. I am considering trying that one next. But for algebra, I already have Jacob's, which I used with my older children. And I am considering Horizon's algebra. I have not yet decided.  I really wanted to use NEM, but it is out of print. I didn't use it the first time around, because I was set on following a very traditional American math type program. But I do wish I had just done NEM. I doubt I will try DM because I do not like anything that fusses that it follows common core.