Irritated to death at non-refundable co-op fees and local Spanish class less than advertised

[Harriet Vane]

We are living in a new town and know almost no-one here. I am trying to connect with local homeschoolers and trying to find just a few classes and resources for my kids, especially my 16yo.

 

Issue #1--Non-refundable co-op fees

 

Tomorrow I will go plunk down a lot of money at a co-op. Most of that will be for enrichment classes. They are individually not expensive, though it adds up. What stresses me, though, is knowing that the more-expensive Physics class for dd is not as cheap. All of these fees are refundable only BEFORE class starts--they are non-refundable after the first class. So if we find that the instructor is a flake, we either live with it or just lose the money. I absolutely *hate* the idea of having to purchase a class sight unseen. We have to live with this class and this instructor all year and we have no idea what this group is truly like. The only way to see if the group is a good fit for our family is to sign up and go for a couple weeks, and there is no way to re-coup even part of the cost if it's not a good fit.

 

I understand that the co-op teachers have to protect their investment--I have taught heavy-duty writing, literature, and history classes for years. I still hate the idea of having to purchase the product sight unseen.

 

Issue #2--Spanish class less than we were told

 

Also frustrated because I signed up 16yo for Spanish 4 with a local private school. We have bought the uniform (pricey and poorly made), paid the application fee, and paid an installment on the class. We met the instructor and loved her. BUT dd had her first class today, and it was a rude awakening.

 

We were told there would be three students, but there is only one besides dd, and that one student can hardly speak Spanish at all. We have no idea how she made it to Spanish 4. We are afraid the instructor will tailor the class to the struggling student, which means dd won't learn anything new and will get precious little real (challenging) practice.

 

And the instructor allows tests to be open notes with two class periods for testing--how on earth is anyone going to actually learn Spanish if all tests are open notes??? What incentive is there to actually memorize anything??? We knew that dd would be ahead in this class, but agreed with the instructor that dd needs more formal grammar practice. We are terribly afraid that this will not happen.

 

Even if I yank dd this week, I will have lost hundreds of dollars on this class. We are thinking of giving it a couple weeks and seeing if things improve. If they do not, we might try to negotiate for more homework for dd and for labeling it on the transcript as Honors Spanish 5 or something like that.

 

Insecure and unhappy tonight, wishing we were back in Chicago . . .

 

 

[school17777]

Is there any way the co-op class would let you sign-up after the first class and let you visit during the first class? 

 

[happi duck]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

Is there any way the co-op class would let you sign-up after the first class and let you visit during the first class? 

 

I really don't know. I have never met any of these people before. I am new to the area and know almost nothing about the group.

 

I also fear that if we postpone signing up, all the slots may fill up. I have no way of knowing if this will happen or not; it's just my fear.

 

I will just have to go to the sign-up tomorrow praying God gives me discernment.

[Catwoman]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I hope everything works out.

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I hope everything works out.

 

Thanks.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I too don't like the nonrefundable part of co-ops.  If the co-op is that awesome they need to offer the class fees as refundable.  I get the registration thing if it's cheap enough....there is one co-op nearby it's $150 for first kid.....I forget how much for each kid more.  Classes are paid monthly and very expensive.  But to just try a class I would be out a LOT of money....and if they don't like it, oh well.  

 

This is why we haven't done Classical Conversations.  We all think we would like it....but it's too much money to put down and discover the first week we hate it.  I think more people would join CC or co-ops if they have a 1 week try.  Or last week of the previous year....something!

 

Hope you get the Spanish to work out for you....

 

 

[G5052]

We've been bit a few times too.  In the years when we gave up a vacation in order to pay for homeschooling, it really hurt to put down the $ and then be bitterly disappointed.

 

Hopefully as you settle in the area, you'll be able to get more of a feel for the local scene.  I finally gave up on local classes other than with one person who runs a by-invitation-only program.

 

Open book tests for a foreign language are a crime, but that's the norm here too.  I paid for two Latin classes a year for a time because the classes in the all-day program didn't expect them to memorize the declensions and conjugations.  We would have never gotten to AP Latin otherwise.

 

 

[matrips]

I too don't like the nonrefundable part of co-ops. If the co-op is that awesome they need to offer the class fees as refundable. I get the registration thing if it's cheap enough....there is one co-op nearby it's $150 for first kid.....I forget how much for each kid more. Classes are paid monthly and very expensive. But to just try a class I would be out a LOT of money....and if they don't like it, oh well.

 

This is why we haven't done Classical Conversations. We all think we would like it....but it's too much money to put down and discover the first week we hate it. I think more people would join CC or co-ops if they have a 1 week try. Or last week of the previous year....something!

 

Hope you get the Spanish to work out for you....

I have been in several classical conversations (due to moves), and they all have allowed families to visit and try it out. Sometimes there are formal open houses and sometimes a family will just call and ask. Some have come for part of the day, and some stayed for all. It's usually around Feb or March which is when registration is starting up for the next year.

[catz]

Since there are only 2 kids in Spanish, I would not be shy asking for special treatment from the teacher. My kids old Spanish teacher was able to do a good job with kids at several levels in one class.

 

I totally get the no refund coop thing is annoying and risky. But if its like our coop, it's run by volunteers and just doesn't have the budget to offer trial runs. So from their perspective, I'm sympathetic tool. If you we're really cautious, I'd send emails and say you'd like to come the first week and make sure it will be a fit if you really don't know anything at all about it. Or I might at least grill the organisers about the teacher, the class format, and the other kids in the class.

 

Our coop also does have an open house in the spring where families can come check it out.

[chiguirre]

I agree with Wooly. The Spanish class should be fine since there are only 2 students. The teacher should be able to individualize their instruction and toggle back and forth between them while they do exercises by themselves. By Spanish 4, I was writing short essays on exams so I wouldn't worry about being able to use the book and dictionary. If you have access to Word set to Spanish, it's a wonderful help. The grammar check catches all the agreement issues that are the bane of English speakers.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I have been in several classical conversations (due to moves), and they all have allowed families to visit and try it out. Sometimes there are formal open houses and sometimes a family will just call and ask. Some have come for part of the day, and some stayed for all. It's usually around Feb or March which is when registration is starting up for the next year.

But that's the problem, come fall its a new group and how many girls or boys changes! I want to come a week or two in fall and see if we like it. Then commit. For any co-op! I want to experience the teacher for the time we are considering participating. Not the spring and just a sample class of whoever is there at that time.

 

My ideal: two weeks to try the class. If we like, we then pay registration fee and class fee including the try out days. It would bring the best out of the teachers ;-)

[catz]

But that's the problem, come fall its a new group and how many girls or boys changes! I want to come a week or two in fall and see if we like it. Then commit. For any co-op! I want to experience the teacher for the time we are considering participating. Not the spring and just a sample class of whoever is there at that time.

 

My ideal: two weeks to try the class. If we like, we then pay registration fee and class fee including the try out days. It would bring the best out of the teachers ;-)

That would be awesome. I can see why maybe a well funded school can do this but not a small volunteer run homeschooling co-op. Our co-op would likely allow a family brand new to the area come and try classes that have already achieved critical mass to run for a week before committing. If you had 6 families come try for 2 weeks, a class might need to drop and the organizers could be out rent, and the teacher might not even get paid for any of their time. It's just a difficult situation for very small co-ops. If you think of it another way, these classes are sometimes risky for people involved in organizing too if they don't know the teacher well before the class starts. Our co-op is trying a new science teacher this fall and everyone is a little tense about it.

[QueenCat]

I'm thinking it would be a budgeting nightmare for a tutorial to not have firm registrations before classes start. The tutorial I teach at determines it's budget based on registrations from the prior spring. If a class doesn't have a minimum # of students by a certain point, it is canceled. Supply budgets, salaries, etc make it impossible to allow people to wait to decide after classes have started.

 

Parents can come tour in the spring prior. Most of the teachers will be the same as who they see during a tour but sometimes there are new class offerings or teachers. Granted, we have very few openings for new families as most families stay & have priority registration.

[QueenCat]

My ideal: two weeks to try the class. If we like, we then pay registration fee and class fee including the try out days. It would bring the best out of the teachers ;-)

 

And who pays the teachers and for supplies while you are not? Or are your kids just observing and not participating?

[QueenCat]

  Or at least I'd like to meet the instructor or have a run down of the instructor's plans.

 

 

I would have no problem discussing the syllabus with a parent, so long as the parent understood that it is a "working syllabus" and will change should the needs/interests of the class as a whole change. For example, in history, if the students ask more questions than I expect, or are into a specific topic more than a previous class, we may do more on that topic, and less on something else later. Since it's elementary school level history, I'm not worried about covering it all, my focus is on getting students interested in history.

[QueenCat]

I find it interesting that people are paying large sums for co-ops. Do some places use the word co-op interchangeably with tutorial? Around here, co-ops are run by parents, who all participate in some way, and the costs are lower. Teachers are not paid, except for supply reimbursement, as all parents do something (teach, assist, work the nursery, clean, do admin). Around here, tutorials are different than co-ops. They have paid teachers, some of whom have children at the tutorial but there are also teachers who do not have children attending. Parents are not required to pitch in, although there are some opportunities if one desires. Fees are higher as teachers and admin are paid.

[catz]

I find it interesting that people are paying large sums for co-ops. Do some places use the word co-op interchangeably with tutorial? Around here, co-ops are run by parents, who all participate in some way, and the costs are lower. Teachers are not paid, except for supply reimbursement, as all parents do something (teach, assist, work the nursery, clean, do admin). Around here, tutorials are different than co-ops. They have paid teachers, some of whom have children at the tutorial but there are also teachers who do not have children attending. Parents are not required to pitch in, although there are some opportunities if one desires. Fees are higher as teachers and admin are paid.

Well, our co-op is parent run and requires parent participation in the form of being lunch/hall monitors. Some parents teach, but only if they have a strong background/degree in the subject area. They also hire professional teachers for classes too. It's a jr. high/high school age co-op. At that age, I want a professional doing the teaching or it's likely I can do better at home. Space is not cheap around here either (and they're renting from a church). So it does get steep to do it. ETA - and it's still cheaper than just hiring a tutor to work one on one with your child locally as well.

[QueenCat]

Well, our co-op is parent run and requires parent participation in the form of being lunch/hall monitors. Some parents teach, but only if they have a strong background/degree in the subject area. They also hire professional teachers for classes too. It's a jr. high/high school age co-op. At that age, I want a professional doing the teaching or it's likely I can do better at home. Space is not cheap around here either (and they're renting from a church). So it does get steep to do it.

 

That sounds almost like a combo between the two. Space here is about the same price, whether running a co-op or tutorial. Co-ops here are cheaper because parents are teaching the classes. I do know one that hired out one teacher for a foreign language so that class cost more. A family with two kids, around here, could easily do a co-op cheaply, for $250-300/year. A tutorial would cost much more, depending on how many classes and what grades your children are. Elementary classes run around $125 plus supplies, high school classes are close to $200/year per class for one day  a week, and over $300/year if it's a two day a week class. Supply fees are additional. Registration fees pay the rent, class fees pay the teachers and basic supplies (glue, scissors, construction paper type things), supply fees pay the more class specific supply needs.

[Laurie4b]

Like others, I would just state your goals with the Spanish teacher. I don't object to an open-book test. If you have to look up too much, you won't get it done. It's not like all the answers will be magically in front of you, but for a lot of students, it allows them to relax. I'm sure if you want your student to have closed book tests that the instructor would accommodate you though.

 

I think a co-op that asks for the money up front is running like a lot of other things. They can't offer a class if there aren't enough students. And I've seen in classes in which kids dropped out because they just didn't want to do the work,  not because the teacher wasn't good.

 

We first paid $$ for baseball, then found a ds had a coach interested in his kid, not in developing other kids. Ds sat on the bench though he was a good player. Waste of time, money, and my kid missed a whole season of development. You pay for college courses up front and some profs pretty much stink. Sometimes there isn't enough time to drop the class and pick up a new one, or you don't realize the extent to which it stinks until drop/add is over, or that is the only time slot you have open for a necessary course. It's just life.

 

So in your first year, you kind of hope for the best. By next year, you'll have a better idea of who is good and who is not. However, I've found my kids learn from teachers who aren't good. They might not learn as much of the content as they would have with a good teacher, but they learn other important lessons like how to cope with someone in authority who is slack or unfair etc. Happens lots of times in life.

 

 

[AHASRADA]

We participate in a small co-op with 4 families, Jr. high and high school level. We all teach, and it is held at one of our members' home. The only cost is reimbursing each other for photocopies and purchasing any required texts.

 

Our goal isn't to have our kids taught by professionals, but for them to benefit from class discussions and collaborations that aren't possible at home.

[Bear23]

No advice but totally understand your situation. We are in a new area too and it's not easy.  My younger ones are making friends but so far no one my teens age. I wanted a co-op but the fees are expensive. Though I may get lucky with two possible co-ops but still not for sure.  I hope the Spanish teacher works with you so you are not out so much $$

[sunflowerlady]

Our co-op is just volunteer homeschool moms.  We only charge a small registration fee and supply fees. Trust me, teachers are not making money.  As for whether or not a fee is refundable causing a teacher to be at her best, that would not work here.  We are moms offering a volunteer, unpaid service for our children and others' children.  If someone does not want to participate, we understand.

[Harriet Vane]

Our co-op is just volunteer homeschool moms.  We only charge a small registration fee and supply fees. Trust me, teachers are not making money.  As for whether or not a fee is refundable causing a teacher to be at her best, that would not work here.  We are moms offering a volunteer, unpaid service for our children and others' children.  If someone does not want to participate, we understand.

 

I am aware that the teachers are not making much money. I have taught co-op classes and directed enrichment clubs for years. In the real world, I can charge $60 per hour for the writing tutoring I offer (the quality of the service plus my qualifications professionally bring me into that range); at co-op, I charge $25 per month. What I charge at co-op is laughable--I do it because that is what the homeschool market can bear, and because I trade off my skills in the co-op for resources for my own kids.

 

There is a wide range of differences in co-ops. Case in point: I visited two co-ops in another state several years ago. Both co-ops billed themselves as "academically focused." Both offered a long complement of classes. I had similar conversations with the head administrators for both co-ops. In so many ways, on paper, the two co-ops appeared almost identical. When I visited, though, it was quickly apparent that one had much, much lower expectations academically than the other one. I had no way of knowing this without personally watching a few classes and spending some time there.

 

That's what bothers me about the non-refund idea. People are variable, and their goals are variable. Different people have different ideas about what "academically focused" or "college prep" means. I have no way of knowing if there is a match to our mindset unless I interact with the co-op, but I can only interact with the co-op by laying out cash.

 

I couldn't visit classes in the spring because I lived hundreds of miles away in another state. :(

[catz]

That's what bothers me about the non-refund idea. People are variable, and their goals are variable. Different people have different ideas about what "academically focused" or "college prep" means. I have no way of knowing if there is a match to our mindset unless I interact with the co-op, but I can only interact with the co-op by laying out cash.

 

I couldn't visit classes in the spring because I lived hundreds of miles away in another state. :(

I totally do get this. We've come and gone from co-op and co-op like situations. Some have been worthwhile, and some most definitely have not been. To this point, relying on a co-op or even a professionally taught class to take care of a core subject area has not been great for us. The only exception has been classes taught at our science museum (which they aren't doing this year!). At the same time, being the organizing parent of a co-op is a risky and stressful business. In your shoes, I'd probably sit on the whole thing for a year and not throw money at a co-op. Get to know the people in the area. Try to get to know the people at the co-op. Show up for the open house next year. Do you have an option to get in for spring possibly after observing a few fall classes? (that would be possible at our co-op). I've found for some more laid back co-op classes, to get full benefit, I had to drive further work at home. Which is also good to know ahead of time.

 

I was interested in this, so I went to look at our co-op/tutorial's official refund policy. You can drop out through week 2 IF the class has the required enrollment. Your refund will be pro-rated for the 1 or 2 weeks you attended. HOWEVER, if that would cause enrollment to drop to the point the class wouldn't run, there will be no refund. This seems pretty reasonable given that it is volunteer run. They also do run open house in the spring and allow access to teachers for questions ahead of time via e-mail.

[Sarah CB]

As someone on the leadership team of a co-op, I totally get the non-refundable co-op fees.  Our co-op is always full and we generally have a 15 person wait list.  Our teachers put a ton of time into prepping for their classes and often pre-purchase materials.  For example, the Mystery of History class teachers went out and bought binders for each student and printed off maps, timelines, and whatever else and set up the binders for all of their students.  

 

I can also understand where you're coming from.  We have offered to have prospective families come and spend some time at our co-op before committing, but that only works if you know about the co-op before summer break happens.  

 

Our co-op only charges a family registration fee ($65 per semester) and a materials fee per kid ($20) so the non-refundable aspect isn't a huge deal here.