Teaching Textbooks and Low Test Scores

[5kidsforME]

I decided to switch my kids to Teaching Textbooks because I love that they can do it on their own!  I saw that one reviewer commented that although she liked it, her child scored low on her SAT's or ACT's. Then I started looking and a lot of people say the same thing.  In fairness a lot of people disagree.  Thoughts??

[teachingmy3]

We only used it for 1 year and that was for 3rd and 4th grades. I will just say this, no curriculum is going to be worth anything if you don't use it correctly. Of course, there are ways to tweak any curriculum to fit your needs. I know from our experience, it was too easy to think math was done just because the kids sat in front of the computer and did a 10 minute lesson. I am pretty sure that had we continued on that road, my kids would be one of those scoring poorly on the SATs. 
For the record, my kids hated TT. I haven't pinpointed the exact reason, but they strongly requested something else this year.

 

 

[5kidsforME]

We only used it for 1 year and that was for 3rd and 4th grades. I will just say this, no curriculum is going to be worth anything if you don't use it correctly. Of course, there are ways to tweak any curriculum to fit your needs. I know from our experience, it was too easy to think math was done just because the kids sat in front of the computer and did a 10 minute lesson. I am pretty sure that had we continued on that road, my kids would be one of those scoring poorly on the SATs. 

For the record, my kids hated TT. I haven't pinpointed the exact reason, but they strongly requested something else this year.

 

Thanks! I actually found very few (maybe1?) reviews where they say their child hated TT or disliked it.  The majority of moms and kids liked it but the complaint was low test score.  I'm thinking about supplementing with LOF. 

 

Of course I would be checking the kids work too. I like that the majority of TT is the child working on their own.  With 5 kids that frees up some of my hands on time. 

[Pat in MI]

We use and like TT for math.  We have used Math 5 and 6 and honestly I believe all of the topics are there for 5th and 6th grades.  There is harder math out there, but I'm looking for understanding not how hard it can be.  The one thing that always bothers me is when people say I bought this so my child can do it on there own.  I'm not sure if this is the way TT intended it to be used, but I never just leave my dd to do it on her own.  I always sit near her when she is doing her math.  When she makes a mistake I make her re-do the problem before she can click on the explanation or I go over the problem and tell her where her mistake is so she can see it on paper step by step. I then always make her sit through the explanation.    I wonder if the low test scores come from not checking work or not making the child re-do missed problems because I honestly believe you have to make them go back and re-do the problem step by step so they don't repeat the mistakes in other problems.  It helps to see if they are just making simple errors or they don't understand the procedure.    I have heard of other families whose children did very well on SAT or ACT after having used TT math in high school.  One thing that matters greatly is having the math facts down very well.  We use other products for practicing the facts.  We  also use LOF, but only because my dd loves these books.  I would be fine with just TT.  

Blessings,

Pat

[ktgrok]

I decided to switch my kids to Teaching Textbooks because I love that they can do it on their own!  I saw that one reviewer commented that although she liked it, her child scored low on her SAT's or ACT's. Then I started looking and a lot of people say the same thing.  In fairness a lot of people disagree.  Thoughts??

I can't speak to the ACT/SAT issue, but I can say after a year of TT my son's math test scores went up dramatically on his standardized testing.

[AmyinMD]

We have used TT for awhile and I think it can work well for the right child.  My second oldest did not do well with it at all.  She only did TT4 and did not seem to learn much that year.  She has a very hard time with math in general though and I found that having her work alone on the computer simply didn't work.  She would skip over the explanations if she missed a problem among other things.  For the last half of the program I sat with her during the lessons which took more time for me than if I'd kept her in MUS.  At the end of the year we wound up putting her back in MUS anyway.  We had to put her into Delta level because TT4 has very little long division in it.  

 

My oldest has done TT5, TT6, attended school for 7th grade, and TT Pre-Algebra, then switched back to MUS for high school because she disliked TT.  Her test scores are right at grade level.  I thought TT Pre-Algebra prepared her well for high school Algebra.    

 

  

[8filltheheart]

Just to give you something else to think about.......I would not evaluate a math program solely based on standardized test scores.    Standardized tests evaluate only a narrow scope of math problems.    The problems are meant to be able to be solved on avg in about 1 minute.   They are not meant to test ability to solve complex problems that  require more time to set up and solve than time crunched problems.      I would also want to know how a math program allows a student to use math to solve real world problems and use those skills in other fields like science.  

 

 

[Zebra]

People say all kinds of things about all kinds of curriculums.   It never ceases to amaze me the wide range of opinions out there!  Teaching Textbooks has been a lifesaver for us.   My daughter was overwhelmed by a couple of other math programs, and it was tears and fighting every single day.   Something clicked with her and Teaching Textbooks.  She "gets" it, and she likes doing it("Like" is maybe a strong word.... :laugh: ).  We're on our 3rd year and I love that she is actually understanding math now.

 

I don't think you can just hand this curriculum to your child and forget about it.   Every week we take time to go over every single problem she missed.  This is a good article that relates to that topic http://thepioneerwoman.com/homeschooling/2013/03/beware-of-turning-educational-tools-into-crutches/

 

Also, there was a post on here awhile back from one Mom about her child's test scores after using Teaching Textbooks http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/259625-teaching-textbooks-got-standardized-test-results-back/?hl=%2Bnancy+%2Bteaching+%2Btextbooks&do=findComment&comment=2579648

 

HTH!   

[Spryte]

We use and like TT for math.  We have used Math 5 and 6 and honestly I believe all of the topics are there for 5th and 6th grades.  There is harder math out there, but I'm looking for understanding not how hard it can be.  The one thing that always bothers me is when people say I bought this so my child can do it on there own.  I'm not sure if this is the way TT intended it to be used, but I never just leave my dd to do it on her own.  I always sit near her when she is doing her math.  When she makes a mistake I make her re-do the problem before she can click on the explanation or I go over the problem and tell her where her mistake is so she can see it on paper step by step. I then always make her sit through the explanation.    I wonder if the low test scores come from not checking work or not making the child re-do missed problems because I honestly believe you have to make them go back and re-do the problem step by step so they don't repeat the mistakes in other problems.  It helps to see if they are just making simple errors or they don't understand the procedure.    I have heard of other families whose children did very well on SAT or ACT after having used TT math in high school.  One thing that matters greatly is having the math facts down very well.  We use other products for practicing the facts.  We  also use LOF, but only because my dd loves these books.  I would be fine with just TT.  

Blessings,

Pat

 

This is how we use TT, too.  I have never left DS to do his TT on his own, I've always been with him while he's doing it.  We stop and discuss or re-do questions.  It would be easy for a child to click through without re-doing problems and fly through the program.  

 

We also use other products for facts.  We used Times Tales for multiplication facts (fun!), and we are big fans of LOF here.  LOF is just an extra though, we use it because DS loves it.  We play games to practice math facts, and discuss math in daily life, too. 

[ktgrok]

We used it with me in the room initially, and now he can do it on his own, but he knows he has to "try again" on any that allow a second try, go back over the ones he missed, watch the explanations, etc.

[BlsdMama]

You might find it more useful, imo, to ask this on the GenEd board or on the high school board with parents who have seen this come up through high school and succeed or not succeed.   However, realize that your results from this poll are automatically going to be skewed.  The reason?  You're on a board that expects rigor.  Teaching Textbooks is awesome, generally not accepted as "rigorous" but engaging and kids are definitely learning from it.

 

So a child, using TT, gets a low math score.  You then have the chicken or the egg question:   Did the child get a low(er) score because they used TT *OR* did they use TT because they weren't adept at math and that order of thinking?  You see?  It's all going to be dependent on Mom's take.

 

I will say this: Having used Saxon for most of my kids, Rod & Staff for a bit, and now having my second child in high school we have used Life of Fred, TT, Saxon, tried Lial's, and am currently using Foerester.   I don't believe TT is "rigorous."  I do believe it is sufficient.  In other words, I'm fine using it for a child that is literature and musically inclined but math is a challenge.  I'm *not* okay using it with my more science/math minded child.  Why?  Because he can push himself more.  Sometimes it isn't a matter of is this sufficient but is this the best fit for this child.  Sometimes TT will be the best fit, no matter how much one would like their child to be a Math Mind.  ;)  Sometimes AoPs isn't going to fit "that" kid and TT is going to be just fine. 

[zenjenn]

I am assuming you mean the SAT 10 and not the college entrance exam since you are posting on the K-8 forum?

 

I have used TT with two kids for several years now, and my kids' SAT 10 scores pretty much reflect their individual capacity and knack for math.

 

I have a gifted student using TT who is great at math and gets phenomenally high SAT 10 (94th percentile math), and one with dyslexia/dyscalculia using TT with scores I'd like to see higher for sure (58th percentile in problem-solving and 23rd on procedures.) The one with the lower scores I supplemented like crazy - and her real weakness is fact mastery and speed because of her learning disabilities, and I honestly do not think her low scores are a reflection of TT because I have been there every step of the way supplementing. If anything, TT has actually helped new math concepts remain accessible to her with the audio/visual component. I know some have the philosophy to not progress until math facts are mastered but when you have a child with dyscalculia I really believe doing so would just frustrate her and make her despise math. (My husband noticed this child scored extremely high on a few areas a lot of kids struggle with - like fractions. He has the same learning disabilities as her and he is now a physicist & engineer, and he believes her struggles would remain the same no matter WHAT curriculum we used, as he had the same struggles as a younger student.)

 

Consider that whatever whatever math curriculum kids are using in public schools, their test scores still run the gamut. I don't see any reason for TT to be any different, other than TT is light on fact mastery and most kids will need outside practice. (speaking up through TT6 here - I've never used anything beyond.)

[Hunter]

Curriculum is a tool. It matters how you use it and what you use it for. Curriculum cannot produce low or high scores. It's just a tool.

[DarlaS]

I can't speak to the ACT/SAT issue, but I can say after a year of TT my son's math test scores went up dramatically on his standardized testing.

:iagree:

 

The only thing we can say for sure about test scores is TT will not wreck a kid who is good at and enjoys math--as long as they're on board with it. On the other hand, if your child does like math and *hates* TT, move on.

 

My oldest is my only student that used it through three of the high school levels. He did fine. And by "fine" I mean he had a NMSQ semi-finalist qualifying score (212) on the PSAT and also did very very well on the ACT. I dropped the ball on the SAT so he didn't get beyond semi-finalist status. I thought he could take in in the fall, but no schools within 3 hrs of here offered it or had seats available. (Also, there were other complications with him going in as a freshman etc. and in any case, it's all water under the bridge now.).

 

He just completed his A.S. in Mathematics and is working toward his B.S. He's majoring in math. He LIKES math (clearly! lol!). He didn't "love" TT, but he used it because he was 12 when starting algebra 1 and we were brand new homeschoolers.

 

That said, I have switched my younger kids to Lial's because they are not independent learners like my oldest. If *I* have to teach from a book, it's going to be mastery based and more concise.

[Tidbits of Learning]

We have used TT in the past when we were schooling independently.  It has pros and cons to it as do all curricula.  I really like the blog post linked above b/c I do think that is where TT becomes a crutch.  In the rush to take math instruction off our hands and to free up time (with 4 kiddos-math takes a long time), we often skip over reading the whole intro and just pop in the disc.  It is very easy to not delve deeper and just look at the gradebook page which can be deceiving b/c of all the 2nd chance options with TT.  If I take the time to watch over the kids and double check it all, what am I gaining by using this program?  

You also have to look at how long TT has been around and assume that some of the students with better SAT/ACT scores completed their lower level maths with another program.  Thus they may have had a better math foundation before starting TT.  I saw one mom expanding on her dd's ACT scores with TT but when asked how long she had used TT....it turned out that her dd only used it for 2 years which means the majority of her math instruction was from other math curricula.  In order for TT to have been productive (stand-alone) for our family, I would have needed to take the same amount of time with it as with our much cheaper math options so I would not have gained time and only gained an expensive math program.

It is very easy to fudge your way through TT with high scores as the blog post reveals.

 

[airforcefamily]

We've used tt3 and I do think it's behind other programs which has resulted in us having to play catch up in order to get ready for standardized testing. Not sure if it is an issue in higher grade levels but it is enough of a difference that I'm going to have to be careful they don't get behind again. FWIW, we have another child niw starting tt3 - an average in math second grader who can comfortably use tt3.

[CatholicMom]

We use TT and like it. I personally think a lot of people who bash it haven't even used it and are just repeating rumors they've heard, or use the program inappropriately. Of course, some people will hate it in virtue of sheer preference and that's totally fine. I think one key to using TT effectively is to make sure your child is doing well on each lesson. Obviously if you just let them blow through the lessons every day and don't check and make sure they are doing well and understanding, they could just get worse and worse. There's no point in using the program like that. You should check the teacher's grade book every day and if the child got less than, say, 90% (my cut off), you need to talk about the problems if necessary and/or just have them re-do those problems until they get a 90% or above. I can't see how they can possibly bomb math and not have gained a lot of skills by the end of the year IF you are diligent in checking their work. Also, I think it's wise to make sure the child knows they need to *write down* certain problems and show their work to you. I think this is common sense stuff but just thought I'd point out that how you use the program will greatly affect results.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

We have only used TT for the upper levels, Algebra 2 and now Geometry. My son HATED math and now he says it is one of his best subjects. He also says he finally gets it (Algebra that is). I have found even if a curriculum might be on the light side (not saying TT is for us but for some it might be), sometimes the lack of complication makes the concepts easier to grasp. For me it is the concept I want my son to learn, not how to solve massive equations with lots of twists and tricks (these types are not on your average test anyway).

[5kidsforME]

Wow, thanks for all of your responses!  I appreciate it. :001_smile:   Sometimes I forget that people aren't mind readers :cool: Of course I don't think they will do it completely on their own.  It will take some of the teaching away from me, something I usually do.  We all work in the same room so I will be there the whole time and will check their work, just like I have always checked their work in the past.  Thanks so much for all of your thoughts on this.