Question about WTM Philosophy

[PachiSusan]

My title is really badly worded, but I could not think of a succinct way to sum up what I'm trying to ask.

 

Most people who know me here from the past few months know that I do a full curriculum from Seton Home Study School and am very pleased with it academically and religiously. That's not in question nor do I want to change this decision.

 

What I DO want to do is incorporate more WTM Philosophy into the books and lesson plans that I have. I read WTM over the past month and compared it to what we're being given, and truthfully it's pretty much in line with what Susan recommends. There is much less classical reading and the history rotation is similar but doesn't have the additions.

 

Seton is very much a classical approach to schooling, and traditional as well.

 

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to supplement with materials that promote the goals of WTM without using her suggested books?

 

And yes, I realize it might not be able to be done, and I might be explaining myself badly. I can only hope you can read between the lines to this Mama's heart and brain!

 

I have a rising 5th grader.

[WTMCassandra]

From what you listed there, I would begin by adding some classical titles to supplement the time periods being studied in the Seton history/literature texts.

 

Otherwise, I guess I would have to say, "What do you think is MISSING?"

 

Good to know that much of what Seton does lines up well with WTM.

[PachiSusan]

It seems that things are introduced much earlier - like Ancient Rome/Greek and the god pantheon - greek mythology, etc...

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry, Susan, but Seton is not classical in its approach at all. It is very traditional, but it is not classical. This really is an issue of understanding what classical philosophy is. Seton is a thorough approach to education with high educational standards as to what they want students to learn, but that is not to be confused with classical education philosophy.

 

The 4 main Catholic providers that say they embrace classical education are Kolbe, Angelicum Academy, Mother of Divine Grace, and St. Thomas Aquinas Academy. (I am not including CLAA bc I have serious reservations about the program. Others may love it, so if you want information about it, you need to discuss it with them. It is not a discussion I am willing to get involved in on this forum.)

 

Classical education is about a way of thinking incorporated into the "what" you are studying and the what is going to focused around Latin, ancient literature, philosophy, logic, etc.

 

If you compare just booklists at the high school level, you should be able to discern the difference:

http://www.setonhome.org/high-school-book-list/

(with Seton pay attention not only to the literature, but history)

http://www.kolbe.org/Literature-Curriculum/

http://www.kolbe.org/History-Curriculum/

http://angelicum.net/great-books-program/great-books-readings/

 

And from my perspective, booklists are really only the tip of the iceberg. What are students doing? How are they interacting with the materials that they are reading? Are they writing book reports? filling out worksheets? writing content related short answers? Or are they evaluating/comparing/contrasting/defending POV? For example, Angelicum Academy's oral exams are based on classical ideology.

 

If you are happy with Seton, be happy with Seton. There is no reason to not to be. Seton simply does not meet the criteria of classical philosophy toward education. Even with the Catholic providers that label themselves as classical there is wide variance as to just how much they embrace the fundamental principles of classical ideology.

 

HTH

[Avila]

I have to agree with 8FilltheHeart. Seton is traditional school, not classical. Some elements line up nicely (the math and grammar, for example). For the rest, ypu need to decide specifically what appeals to you about classical and where you want to incorporate that. Doing classical is not as simple as just choosing the same resources as WTM. It is all about how you use them.

 

Probably the easiest thing to start with is history. You can use the Seton history book as a spine and add in history a la WTM. What really taught me the basics of how to do classical history was History Odyssey. It is just one way of translating the theory to practice, but it was concrete enough for me to start to see how to actually do it. You do start with book choices and adding in your historical fiction, nonfiction (like the history encyclopedia) and literature to match your time period. But you are also using the history as your vehicle to build critical thinking, logic and writing skills. If you are not doing thise things, it is not classical, no matter what resources you are using.

 

So for instance, with 5th grade Seton, you are studying the second half of American history. So you need to read the logic history section of WTM very closely to see what to do: narration, outlining, interacting with primary source documents. Look through the WTM 7th grade lists for American history suggestions (skip the world because you will actually be doing that with Seton in 7th). I would also look at the MODG 5th grade history list or the list from Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum (Emmanuel Books has the MODG list free online). That is the same basic time period, and Laura Berquist chooses great books. If you can, get a copy of DYOCC and see what Laura has to say about classical. It is a different spin on classical than WTM (Catholic and CM-influenced). It might help you better understand the differences between the traditional approach and classical methodology in general.

 

There is nothing wrong with choosing a traditional approach, and nothing wrong with choosing which elements of classical to incorporate.

[PachiSusan]

Ok thanks.

[Zoo Keeper]

Susan,

 

You might enjoy SWB's audio lectures--she explains nicely how classical education does not begin and end with WTM; she gives good guidelines for some neo-classical principles that can be used with many different types of books. I have found the Great Books: History as Literature one to be very, very helpful.

 

This thread also has links to SWB speaking at at classical ed. conference; all her talks from that conference were excellent.

 

Download, get a cup or two of coffee, and have a listen. :) Find what parts can help you, your daughter, your family.

[PachiSusan]

I guess what I was trying to say is that I want to apply the classical mindset to the material presented. I know that Seton is not in and of itself classical - just that the material can be modified to apply the classical thought process. For instance, using the history spine and instead of simply reading and studying it - do more reading of real books outside of the text.(We need to find more of these books) Write outlines. Narrate what she's learning (which we already do).

 

I realize the Seton School curriculum is a demanding traditional method. I just want to teach it in the classical way. That's what I was asking.

[PachiSusan]

Susan,

 

You might enjoy SWB's audio lectures--she explains nicely how classical education does not begin and end with WTM; she give good guidelines for some neo-classical principles that can be used with many different types of books. I have found the Great Books: History as Literature one to be very, very helpful.

 

This thread also has links to SWB speaking at at classical ed. conference; all her talks from that conference were excellent.

 

Download, get a cup or two of coffee, and have a listen. :) Find what parts can help you, your daughter, your family.

 

Thank you, I will check those out! :)

[8filltheheart]

I guess what I was trying to say is that I want to apply the classical mindset to the material presented. I know that Seton is not in and of itself classical - just that the material can be modified to apply the classical thought process. For instance, using the history spine and instead of simply reading and studying it - do more reading of real books outside of the text.(We need to find more of these books) Write outlines. Narrate what she's learning (which we already do).

 

I realize the Seton School curriculum is a demanding traditional method. I just want to teach it in the classical way. That's what I was asking.

 

 

Honestly, it would take so much work to alter Seton to classical methodologies, not to mention the materials that would have to be added, that it wouldn't even resemble Seton by the time you finished. It really would not be worth the $$ to start with an investment in Seton.

 

While it really takes me no effort to generate my own classical plans or build on other plans, it is only after immersing myself in "what is classical education" that I was able to make that leap. The best way for transitioning from traditional methodology to classical w/o pre-packaged curriculum is by researching classical methods (and there is a distinction between classical and neo-classical (WTM is neo.) If I had to give a "in a nutshell" list, it would include knowing:

 

how to implement Socratic questioning effectively

how to build critical thinking skills,

how to integrate across subjects,

knowledge that "grammar, logic, and rhetoric" are subjects, not just "stages"

and what core subjects/materials are taught.

 

HTH

[PachiSusan]

Honestly, it would take so much work to alter Seton to classical methodologies, not to mention the materials that would have to be added, that it wouldn't even resemble Seton by the time you finished. It really would not be worth the $$ to start with an investment in Seton.

 

While it really takes me no effort to generate my own classical plans or build on other plans, it is only after immersing myself in "what is classical education" that I was able to make that leap. The best way for transitioning from traditional methodology to classical w/o pre-packaged curriculum is by researching classical methods (and there is a distinction between classical and neo-classical (WTM is neo.) If I had to give a "in a nutshell" list, it would include knowing:

 

how to implement Socratic questioning effectively

how to build critical thinking skills,

how to integrate across subjects,

knowledge that "grammar, logic, and rhetoric" are subjects, not just "stages"

and what core subjects/materials are taught.

 

HTH

 

It helps, but honestly - it deflates me as well. I guess I see it wrong. I see Classical as a methodology - the WAY you learn information, rather than the information itself.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

It helps, but honestly - it deflates me as well.

 

I wouldn't let it deflate you. Really. It would just be easier to start with a completely different base than Seton. If you like to start with a simple Catholic source, I would recommend Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Own-Classical-Curriculum/dp/0898706602

 

DYOCC is basically a Catholic neo-classical approach with a "nod" to "traditional classical."

 

 

[PachiSusan]

I wouldn't let it deflate you. Really. It would just be easier to start with a completely different base than Seton. If you like to start with a simple Catholic source, I would recommend Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0898706602

 

DYOCC is basically a Catholic neo-classical approach with a "nod" to "traditional classical."

 

I have no plans to ditch Seton to make it easier. I find it a SUPERB program. I guess that means I need to point my classical thoughts in a different manner and find a way for them to work in our homeschool.

 

ETA I very much appreciate your time and your thoughts on the matter. Don't read my post as dismissive, because it's not. :)

[RootAnn]

Susan -

 

I love analogies, but it is hard to find ones that are perfect fits. So, don't take this too literally.

 

If you are baking, you can start with a boxed cake mix and add some things to it to make it seem more made-from-scratch. But, ultimately, it is still a boxed cake mix. Or, you can find a good made-from-scratch cake recipe and do that instead. The more scratch cakes you bake, the more things you learn about how temperature of the eggs matter and how sifting the flour (or using cake flour) really *does* make a difference to your final product and which things you & your family like best.

 

The WAY you do it matters. The MATERIALS matter, too. In the end, you get a cake. Some people are perfectly happy with boxed cake. Others can & do make theirs from scratch. Neither one claims they are the other.

[PachiSusan]

Susan -

 

I love analogies, but it is hard to find ones that are perfect fits. So, don't take this too literally.

 

If you are baking, you can start with a boxed cake mix and add some things to it to make it seem more made-from-scratch. But, ultimately, it is still a boxed cake mix. Or, you can find a good made-from-scratch cake recipe and do that instead. The more scratch cakes you bake, the more things you learn about how temperature of the eggs matter and how sifting the flour (or using cake flour) really *does* make a difference to your final product and which things you & your family like best.

 

The WAY you do it matters. The MATERIALS matter, too. In the end, you get a cake. Some people are perfectly happy with boxed cake. Others can & do make theirs from scratch. Neither one claims they are the other.

 

No, I understand what you're saying. I guess I just don't see that Seton's material is a "less desirable product" and would make my "cake" less appealing/appetizing if I used it as a spine as opposed to what SWB recommends.

 

I think it's the same issue I got into at an AP board that I finally was asked to leave because I just truly don't think the same way. I certainly hope it doesn't end up this way here too - LMAO!!

 

I believe that AP has more to do with the attitude the parent has: doing what works best for the child and the child's well being. Slinging, non VAXING, Breastfeeding, etc...are all TOOLS that help you accomplish that goal.

 

I see classical in the same way. It's a thought process and philosophy that you have that causes you to look at the material differently, and teach it differently. I think even SWB would say that her list is not the be all end all of books and material to use.

 

Asking this question here got me to really think about my philosophy about this - and in asking it, I feel more strong in what I really want to accomplish: a well rounded child. Finding and utilizing the materials that will help that is how I get there and what I'm charged to do. :)

[RootAnn]

I guess I just don't see that Seton's material is a "less desirable product" and would make my "cake" less appealing/appetizing if I used it as a spine as opposed to what SWB recommends.

 

See, in my analogy, you asked about making a boxed cake (Seton) more hand-madeish (WTM). What I'm trying to say is that they are different cakes. You can add to it to make it seem more like hand-made (WTM), but you are starting with something completely different (Seton). And, I'm not saying hand-made (WTM) is "better" than boxed (Seton). Only that you asked how to make one more like the other. 8FillTheHeart is trying to say that you might as well make it from scratch or use a different base (cake flour +++) because it isn't going to resemble the boxed mix when you are done, so why buy it in the first place?

 

And, we aren't going to ask you to leave. :-) Not many people on here, despite that it is the WTM board, use an all-classical approach.

[Hunter]

Susan, do you have the 1st edition of TWTM? You CAN do what you want, with that edition.

 

Different people here have different definitions for "classical".

[PachiSusan]

No, I get that.

 

I hate words sometimes because from my brain, to the fingers, to the keyboard, I can't seem to get my words out right.

 

Let's try this: I think that I am saying "What is wrong with having a Seton Cake with Classical Icing?"

 

It seems that the sentiment is to throw away Seton Cake Mix and get a different base, or throw away Classical and keep Seton. I don't understand why Seton as a base is not "desirable".

 

Am I making it any clearer what I'm asking?? LOL

 

Also, I'm heading to the shower and then Mass so I won't be home for quite a while to get any responses so don't worry if the give and take goes away for a while on my end.

 

 

 

See, in my analogy, you asked about making a boxed cake (Seton) more hand-madeish (WTM). What I'm trying to say is that they are different cakes. You can add to it to make it seem more like hand-made (WTM), but you are starting with something completely different (Seton). And, I'm not saying hand-made (WTM) is "better" than boxed (Seton). Only that you asked how to make one more like the other. 8FillTheHeart is trying to say that you might as well make it from scratch or use a different base (cake flour +++) because it isn't going to resemble the boxed mix when you are done, so why buy it in the first place?

 

And, we aren't going to ask you to leave. :-) Not many people on here, despite that it is the WTM board, use an all-classical approach.

 

I have to go eat, but I'll try to come back later & comment on the following string of quotes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PachiSusan]

Susan, do you have the 1st edition of TWTM? You CAN do what you want, with that edition.

 

Different people here have different definitions for "classical".

 

I don't "have" any editions. I borrowed and renewed it 3x from the library. I have to give it back. LOL

 

I'm reading the third edition.

[8filltheheart]

I guess I see it wrong. I see Classical as a methodology - the WAY you learn information, rather than the information itself.

 

Ok, you added this part after I read your other post. It is both. Classical is not just methodology.

 

Here are some links you might like to read:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01760a.htm

http://www.kolbe.org/Ignatian/

 

One of the key components of classical education is instilling orderly thinking and rhetoric (discerning from all propaganda). Those skills are developed through subjects and methodology. (Latin, for example, definitely trains the mind.) I am an "embracer" of the Ignatian philosophy of education. St. Ignatius based his methodology (found in the Ratio Studiorum) on the Spiritual Exercises, educating the whole individual, interior mental freedom (which is gained through education), and serving others. At one pt I thought that "what" was used was not key to authentic classical education. I was wrong. It matters. A lot.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hunter]

YOU need the 1st edition :lol:

[La Texican]

Quote:

I think it's the same issue I got into at an AP board that I finally was asked to leave because I just truly don't think the same way. I certainly hope it doesn't end up this way here too - LMAO!!

End Quote.

 

I haven't been here that long, but I'm sure you won't be kicked out for being an eclectic or any other kind of homeschooler. I'm pretty sure you'll be argued with if you assert anything. This board seems (to me) to be very open to diversity in homeschoolers (the board itself, not necessarily individual posters). Just dot your t's and cross your i's because this lot is a diverse, persnickity, and opinionated bunch. And you can guess what SWB would say, but sometimes she'll show up and tell you. I think there's videos floating around too of her homeschooling in action.

There was a quote on a recent thread... I forget which curriculum they were discussing. Someone complained about some curriculum, which offended someone who liked the curriculum, someone complained that it seemed like no one was allowed to criticize that brand curriculum (something like Charlotte Mason based, I just can't remember. I'd know it if I saw it.) A moderator stepped in and said, you most certainly are welcome to criticize any and every curriculum here, even criticizing SWB's books is allowed, and that's who hosts this forum.

 

To me, that speaks volumes about the genuine intent of this forum. (helping homeschoolers and even including afterschoolers). Kudos.

 

edited because I left a word out.

[Avila]

At one pt I thought that "what" was used was not key to authentic classical education. I was wrong. It matters. A lot.

 

I need a few paragraphs explaining this. Pretty please. :)

[*Michelle*]

Susan, have you considered enrolling your daughter in Angelicum's online discussion course? You don't have to use Angelicum's program to do so. They have a group for 3rd-8th grade, then the Socratic course for high school also.

[Avila]

The first year I homeschooled, I tried to do WTM. I bought all the books, but I did them the way I understood school. It was not a bad education. But it was not a *classical* education either.

 

I took a break, I read, and I came back to classical (honestly, still mostly neo-classical) with a much better understanding of what I was doing and why. And it made all the difference. So when I say you can use all the right resources and still not be educating classically, I say it because I did just that.

 

But FWIW, I am not 100% classical anyhow. I use what works for each child, and that changes, depending on our strengths, weaknesses and goals. I do have an educational philosophy that overarches whatever I am doing. And like my signature says, curriculum is my tool and not my master. I use it as I see fit to accomplish my goals.

 

As far as Seton goes, I personally think you can use Seton and incorporate elements of classical into it. It won't look the same as a WTM purist. Or a "true, historical" classical education. And so what? Most people, at some level, mix and match. And that works, if -- in your head -- you know what your methodology really is.

 

But I don't know if you can really do Seton classically, without adding and changing some things. So I still think the best thing to do is to really ask yourself what your goals are, what of classical really appeals to you, and how you can incorporate that into your homeschool.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I need a few paragraphs explaining this. Pretty please. :)

 

Ok, I dug through and found an old post that I wrote that embarrasses me a lot now. So, swallowing my pride, here is a link:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/133886-do-you-feel-that-classical-ed-curricula-has-too-much-humanities-focus-balance/#entry1267052

 

This link explains partly why I used to believe that:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361005-who-does-not-do-classical-ed/page__st__50#entry3740268

 

But, after switching to classical content and classical methodologies, I see a HUGE difference in my children and their mental development **and** their discernment. I was wrong. I have spent more time researching and reading unbiasedly, and now see the full picture and how it all works together. W/o it all, you can still end up well-educated, but it isn't classical education.

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

No, I get that.

 

I hate words sometimes because from my brain, to the fingers, to the keyboard, I can't seem to get my words out right.

 

Let's try this: I think that I am saying "What is wrong with having a Seton Cake with Classical Icing?"

 

It seems that the sentiment is to throw away Seton Cake Mix and get a different base, or throw away Classical and keep Seton. I don't understand why Seton as a base is not "desirable".

 

Am I making it any clearer what I'm asking?? LOL

 

Also, I'm heading to the shower and then Mass so I won't be home for quite a while to get any responses so don't worry if the give and take goes away for a while on my end.

 

 

I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't think what you really want is to make Seton classical. I think what you want is to move Seton from a mostly knowledge-based approach to one which embraces higher levels of critical thinking. That is completely doable. That is via methodology vs. drastically changing content.

 

The distinction boils down to what is classical education. It is a stretch by even the most broad neo-classical definitions to reduce it to strictly methodology.

 

ETA: Also, no one is suggesting that Seton is inferior. It is simply different. I know many amazing young adults that were completely educated through high school using only Seton. They have gone on to be successful in college, their careers, and their own new families. Simply saying that Seton is not classical and cannot really be made classical is not denigrating what Seton is.

[Avila]

 

 

But, after switching to classical content and classical methodologies, I see a HUGE difference in my children and their mental development **and** their discernment. I was wrong. I have spent more time researching and reading unbiasedly, and now see the full picture and how it all works together. W/o it all, you can still end up well-educated, but it isn't classical education.

 

 

Ok. But on a practical level, what did you switch TO that reflects classical content and methodologies, and what made you change your mind?

 

Keep in mind, I still hate Simmons. But I am a lot less history-focused and more Great Books-oriented than I was two years ago.

 

:)

 

[mo2]

Ok. But on a practical level, what did you switch TO that reflects classical content and methodologies, and what made you change your mind?

 

Keep in mind, I still hate Simmons. But I am a lot less history-focused and more Great Books-oriented than I was two years ago.

 

:)

 

I just started a new thread asking her basically the same question. I didn't want to derail this one too much... :)

[8filltheheart]

 

 

Ok. But on a practical level, what did you switch TO that reflects classical content and methodologies, and what made you change your mind?

 

Keep in mind, I still hate Simmons. But I am a lot less history-focused and more Great Books-oriented than I was two years ago.

 

:)

 

 

Latin is a core subject in our homeschool....equal to math, LA, history, science. My younger kids are reading more classical lit in full than my older kids did. (my oldest ds's reading lists looked more comparable to Seton's than say Angelicum Academy's.)

 

We are not a "humanities focused" family, but incorporating the fundamental "content" of classical into our classical "methodology" was a shift. What made me change my mind? Arguing with myself, lots of reading and reflecting, and ultimately my children. My children believed that Latin was a vital subject for classically educating. They are the proof by what I see in the "without" and the "with." :)

[Avila]

Latin is a core subject in our homeschool....equal to math, LA, history, science. My younger kids are reading more classical lit in full than my older kids did. (my oldest ds's reading lists looked more comparable to Seton's than say Angelicum Academy's.)

 

We are not a "humanities focused" family, but incorporating the fundamental "content" of classical into our classical "methodology" was a shift. What made me change my mind? Arguing with myself, lots of reading and reflecting, and ultimately my children. My children believed that Latin was a vital subject for classically educating. They are the proof by what I see in the "without" and the "with." :)

 

 

Someday, we will convince you to write a book.

 

I am doing a lot of this. We will all be doing Latin in the fall even. :)

[justamouse]

At one pt I thought that "what" was used was not key to authentic classical education. I was wrong. It matters. A lot.

 

 

 

So true and I'm trying to think as to how to unpack that sentence, because I was going to say the same and I can't even begin to.

 

What I can say, is that every year I continue in this, the more I see how much what is used matters.

 

It's one of these abstract things, like going to premarital counseling and trying to explain to this newly minted couple portions of the journey they are about to embark upon, and what matters and why it matters. But they are still in the rose colored glasses stage, and you can see them trying to understand, but they have no life experience of marriage to truly understand what you are trying to say. So it's so abstract. Then, they get a few years under their belt and they start remembering and ..a-ha...

 

 

Homeschooling is the same.

 

In January, Urpedonmommy had this great post about the doing of the thing..I actually printed it out and it is on my fridge.

 

" [snip] Don't play scales all day and think the scales are the point, don't drill math facts all day and think that they are the goal, don't do Latin vocab flashcards and think they are Latin (Which is not to say don't do scales, drills to lash cards, just don't think they are the end. ) "

 

Classical is all about remembering that the doing of the thing is not the end, so what you use really matters.

[RootAnn]

Let's try this: I think that I am saying "What is wrong with having a Seton Cake with Classical Icing?"

It seems that the sentiment is to throw away Seton Cake Mix and get a different base, or throw away Classical and keep Seton. I don't understand why Seton as a base is not "desirable".

Am I making it any clearer what I'm asking?? LOL

 

I think you are taking what people are saying, including me, as trying to convince you that Seton is Bad or Seton Isn't Good Enough. That's not what we're saying. We're just pointing out that the two things aren't the same. What 8 is trying to say is that it would be very difficult to have Seton as a base & end up with a (neo-) Classical education. I think 8 re-interprets what you are trying to ask instead of your original questions ... Perhaps that's the way to get your icing!

 

It seems that things are introduced much earlier - like Ancient Rome/Greek and the god pantheon - greek mythology, etc...

 

*material*

Doing classical is not as simple as just choosing the same resources as WTM. It is all about how you use them.

*method*

I guess what I was trying to say is that I want to apply the classical mindset to the material presented.

[combining two posts]

I see Classical as a methodology - the WAY you learn information, rather than the information itself.

 

*method*

how to implement Socratic questioning effectively

how to build critical thinking skills,

how to integrate across subjects,

knowledge that "grammar, logic, and rhetoric" are subjects, not just "stages"

and what core subjects/materials are taught.

*method&material*

 

When asked what you thought was missing, you replied with something in terms of *material*. Seton (at least of what I know of the younger years) is mostly a work & text-book based approach. You could build in different resources (primary sources at the age your daughter will be next year, more fiction & non-fiction books) and change some of the assignments to add in more critical thinking, more structure, and encourage her to make connections between sources. How you talk through the material will be different. Don't discount 8's links on Socratic dialogue... And I remember you are adding Latin.

 

I agree with Hunter that the 1st edition has a completely different feel to it than the 3rd edition. I like both of them, though. I like the more eclectic resources & 'how to' in the 1st. In the 3rd, the Logic stage, especially, reflects SWB's experience with her own kids and shows more realism. However, I also think SWB's philosophy on writing & literary analysis has morphed some over the years, even since the 3rd edition -- because WWS & her Writing talks have different expectations! 8's posts in this very thread show how your homeschool philosophy can change with experience. I'm a newbie as this is only my 7th year homeschooling. The longer I do this, the less I think I know. Good luck!

[PachiSusan]

Ok, you added this part after I read your other post. It is both. Classical is not just methodology.

 

Here are some links you might like to read:

http://www.newadvent...then/01760a.htm

http://www.kolbe.org/Ignatian/

 

One of the key components of classical education is instilling orderly thinking and rhetoric (discerning from all propaganda). Those skills are developed through subjects and methodology. (Latin, for example, definitely trains the mind.) I am an "embracer" of the Ignatian philosophy of education. St. Ignatius based his methodology (found in the Ratio Studiorum) on the Spiritual Exercises, educating the whole individual, interior mental freedom (which is gained through education), and serving others. At one pt I thought that "what" was used was not key to authentic classical education. I was wrong. It matters. A lot.

 

Does it count that I am adding Latin studies in starting in 5th grade? ;)

 

I am still not convinced that the what is as important as you think it is, but I honor that you have come to that conclusion through your own studies and that's the answer for you.

[PachiSusan]

YOU need the 1st edition :lol:

 

I'll look for it. Maybe someone has it as an eBook I can buy/borrow.

[PachiSusan]

I wasn't serious - thus the LMAO. I know I won't get kicked off for not following WTM. I asked that question very early on in my stay here. :)

 

 

 

Quote:

I think it's the same issue I got into at an AP board that I finally was asked to leave because I just truly don't think the same way. I certainly hope it doesn't end up this way here too - LMAO!!

End Quote.

 

I haven't been here that long, but I'm sure you won't be kicked out for being an eclectic or any other kind of homeschooler. I'm pretty sure you'll be argued with if you assert anything. This board seems (to me) to be very open to diversity in homeschoolers (the board itself, not necessarily individual posters). Just dot your t's and cross your i's because this lot is a diverse, persnickity, and opinionated bunch. And you can guess what SWB would say, but sometimes she'll show up and tell you. I think there's videos floating around too of her homeschooling in action.

There was a quote on a recent thread... I forget which curriculum they were discussing. Someone complained about some curriculum, which offended someone who liked the curriculum, someone complained that it seemed like no one was allowed to criticize that brand curriculum (something like Charlotte Mason based, I just can't remember. I'd know it if I saw it.) A moderator stepped in and said, you most certainly are welcome to criticize any and every curriculum here, even criticizing SWB's books is allowed, and that's who hosts this forum.

 

To me, that speaks volumes about the genuine intent of this forum. (helping homeschoolers and even including afterschoolers). Kudos.

 

edited because I left a word out.

[PachiSusan]

Susan, have you considered enrolling your daughter in Angelicum's online discussion course? You don't have to use Angelicum's program to do so. They have a group for 3rd-8th grade, then the Socratic course for high school also.

 

No, I haven't but I will most definitely take a look at it! :) For right now, we are financially not able to do it, but hopefully that will change soon.

[PachiSusan]

The first year I homeschooled, I tried to do WTM. I bought all the books, but I did them the way I understood school. It was not a bad education. But it was not a *classical* education either.

 

I took a break, I read, and I came back to classical (honestly, still mostly neo-classical) with a much better understanding of what I was doing and why. And it made all the difference. So when I say you can use all the right resources and still not be educating classically, I say it because I did just that.

 

But FWIW, I am not 100% classical anyhow. I use what works for each child, and that changes, depending on our strengths, weaknesses and goals. I do have an educational philosophy that overarches whatever I am doing. And like my signature says, curriculum is my tool and not my master. I use it as I see fit to accomplish my goals.

 

As far as Seton goes, I personally think you can use Seton and incorporate elements of classical into it. It won't look the same as a WTM purist. Or a "true, historical" classical education. And so what? Most people, at some level, mix and match. And that works, if -- in your head -- you know what your methodology really is.

 

But I don't know if you can really do Seton classically, without adding and changing some things. So I still think the best thing to do is to really ask yourself what your goals are, what of classical really appeals to you, and how you can incorporate that into your homeschool.

 

I think you understand me and my aims quite well from reading your post. :) Thank you for hearing my heart.

 

I realize that I'm not a WTM purist. I WANT to mix and match and do the combination of methods and materials that works for my daughter. I need to remember that I don't need to be attached to a "label" of what I'm doing. The only label should be "That which works for Melissa". :)

[PachiSusan]

Ok, I dug through and found an old post that I wrote that embarrasses me a lot now. So, swallowing my pride, here is a link:

http://forums.welltr...e/#entry1267052

 

This link explains partly why I used to believe that:

http://forums.welltr...50#entry3740268

 

But, after switching to classical content and classical methodologies, I see a HUGE difference in my children and their mental development **and** their discernment. I was wrong. I have spent more time researching and reading unbiasedly, and now see the full picture and how it all works together. W/o it all, you can still end up well-educated, but it isn't classical education.

 

Point taken and noted. :)

[PachiSusan]

I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't think what you really want is to make Seton classical. I think what you want is to move Seton from a mostly knowledge-based approach to one which embraces higher levels of critical thinking. That is completely doable. That is via methodology vs. drastically changing content.

 

The distinction boils down to what is classical education. It is a stretch by even the most broad neo-classical definitions to reduce it to strictly methodology.

 

ETA: Also, no one is suggesting that Seton is inferior. It is simply different. I know many amazing young adults that were completely educated through high school using only Seton. They have gone on to be successful in college, their careers, and their own new families. Simply saying that Seton is not classical and cannot really be made classical is not denigrating what Seton is.

 

In reading through this thread and being at Mass praying about this, you're right. I'm asking the wrong question, and probably asking it in the wrong place. LOL

 

I never intended upon changing my curriculum from Seton. So it was wrong of me to even ask how I could make it more classical in nature. That is a question/task/journey that is mine alone to take. Only Melissa, my husband and I know what our daughter is doing, is capable of, and what we ultimately want for her education.

 

I don't believe that anyone was saying Seton was BAD, per se, but at first it seemed like it was a comment like you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...that you can't get the outcome you want if you use Seton. I believe that I CAN get the outcome I want using the challenging content from Seton and using Classical Methodology - because I am creating the way in which it will be used to my daughter's benefit. :)

 

I do contend that they align many times with classical education both in timing and content more than people seem to think it does. Having used it since Kindergarten, I see the pattern of 5 years and the cycles.

 

I appreciate everyone's time and energy into answering my feeble attempt at a question. I have learned many things through this - and that's what my intent was in the first place to do! :)

[PachiSusan]

Latin is a core subject in our homeschool....equal to math, LA, history, science. My younger kids are reading more classical lit in full than my older kids did. (my oldest ds's reading lists looked more comparable to Seton's than say Angelicum Academy's.)

 

We are not a "humanities focused" family, but incorporating the fundamental "content" of classical into our classical "methodology" was a shift. What made me change my mind? Arguing with myself, lots of reading and reflecting, and ultimately my children. My children believed that Latin was a vital subject for classically educating. They are the proof by what I see in the "without" and the "with." :)

 

I agree with this - and we are researching which Latin program to use right now. We have narrowed it down from 6 to 3. I'm sure by next year we'll be able to make the final decision! LOL

[PachiSusan]

 

 

So true and I'm trying to think as to how to unpack that sentence, because I was going to say the same and I can't even begin to.

 

What I can say, is that every year I continue in this, the more I see how much what is used matters.

 

It's one of these abstract things, like going to premarital counseling and trying to explain to this newly minted couple portions of the journey they are about to embark upon, and what matters and why it matters. But they are still in the rose colored glasses stage, and you can see them trying to understand, but they have no life experience of marriage to truly understand what you are trying to say. So it's so abstract. Then, they get a few years under their belt and they start remembering and ..a-ha...

 

 

Homeschooling is the same.

 

In January, Urpedonmommy had this great post about the doing of the thing..I actually printed it out and it is on my fridge.

 

" [snip] Don't play scales all day and think the scales are the point, don't drill math facts all day and think that they are the goal, don't do Latin vocab flashcards and think they are Latin (Which is not to say don't do scales, drills to lash cards, just don't think they are the end. ) "

 

Classical is all about remembering that the doing of the thing is not the end, so what you use really matters.

 

I'm listening. I hear what you all are saying, there's just a degree that I can't go as far as to say content is equally as important as methodology. I might be back here in a few years saying "Now I get what you were saying..." and then again, I might not. :lol:

 

I don't really think I'm in the honeymoon stage - this is our 6th year of homeschooling, but your analogy totally works and I understand it. :)

[PachiSusan]

Well, hey at least I'm consistent!! :)

 

Most of my wanting to add to Seton is in the method of how it's taught. That is completely up to the parent/teacher. I was even told by the counselors that they don't care HOW you get the material learned - only that it is. The child has to be able to do well on the test that they give you. There have been times where I barely glanced at their books and taught different things and she did fine.

 

The ONLY thing I see that they don't do anything of is ancient studies. As of 4th grade, we still haven't done any but what I have added. I know they get there, but in the older grades.

 

The way to get my icing is to keep doing what I am doing and work in more books for reading and Latin. :) I will be happy with that.

 

As always, we alter to fit the child and the learning. :)

 

[/size]

 

I think you are taking what people are saying, including me, as trying to convince you that Seton is Bad or Seton Isn't Good Enough. That's not what we're saying. We're just pointing out that the two things aren't the same. What 8 is trying to say is that it would be very difficult to have Seton as a base & end up with a (neo-) Classical education. I think 8 re-interprets what you are trying to ask instead of your original questions ... Perhaps that's the way to get your icing!

 

 

*material*

 

*method*

 

*method*

 

*method&material*

 

When asked what you thought was missing, you replied with something in terms of *material*. Seton (at least of what I know of the younger years) is mostly a work & text-book based approach. You could build in different resources (primary sources at the age your daughter will be next year, more fiction & non-fiction books) and change some of the assignments to add in more critical thinking, more structure, and encourage her to make connections between sources. How you talk through the material will be different. Don't discount 8's links on Socratic dialogue... And I remember you are adding Latin.

 

I agree with Hunter that the 1st edition has a completely different feel to it than the 3rd edition. I like both of them, though. I like the more eclectic resources & 'how to' in the 1st. In the 3rd, the Logic stage, especially, reflects SWB's experience with her own kids and shows more realism. However, I also think SWB's philosophy on writing & literary analysis has morphed some over the years, even since the 3rd edition -- because WWS & her Writing talks have different expectations! 8's posts in this very thread show how your homeschool philosophy can change with experience. I'm a newbie as this is only my 7th year homeschooling. The longer I do this, the less I think I know. Good luck!

[PachiSusan]

La la la...talking to myself here!! :lol:

[justamouse]

I'm listening. I hear what you all are saying, there's just a degree that I can't go as far as to say content is equally as important as methodology. I might be back here in a few years saying "Now I get what you were saying..." and then again, I might not. :lol:

 

I don't really think I'm in the honeymoon stage - this is our 6th year of homeschooling, but your analogy totally works and I understand it. :)

 

I wasn't saying that you are in the honeymoon stage...I was saying that it's an abstract idea and hard to communicate. And I gave an analogy why this is so. And it's not about content vs methodology, it's about the whole philosophy of what is man and how do you educate him?

 

Tracey Lee Simmons, SWB, The CiRCE crowd, they are our lighthouses. Because not many of us have these educations, and we're trying to give our children what we do not have.

[PachiSusan]

I wasn't saying that you are in the honeymoon stage...I was saying that's it's an abstract idea and hard to communicate. And I gave an analogy why this is so. And it's not about content vs methodology, it's about the whole philosophy of what is man and how do you educate him?

 

Tracey Lee Simmons, SWB, The CiRCE crowd, they are our lighthouses. Because not many of us have these educations, and we're trying to give our children what we do not have.

 

 

I think maybe I should stop talking, because I'm not being a good communicator! LOL I didn't think you were accusing me of anything - I was simply musing about myself and how your analogy relates to me.

 

I am not in any way denigrating a fully classical education both in methodology and content. Not at ALL. I admire it. I think you ladies are doing an awesome job with it. I wouldnt' be here if I didn't believe in it to some degree. I just think that I am taking a different path than the purist, and I think that's okay for me to do so, just as it's okay for the fully immersed purist! It's all good!

 

I realize this was the wrong place to ask the question...and I'm not saying this in any type of mood or anything. It's just a fact - asking people who espouse the totality of a method are not the people to ask how to do part of it. :)

[Alte Veste Academy]

The longer I do this, the less I think I know.

 

:iagree: And that is about the only part of this thread I am qualified to agree with! :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

. I just think that I am taking a different path than the purist, and I think that's okay for me to do so, just as it's okay for the fully immersed purist! It's all good!

 

I realize this was the wrong place to ask the question...and I'm not saying this in any type of mood or anything. It's just a fact - asking people who espouse the totality of a method are not the people to ask how to do part of it. :)

 

Thing is that I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong place." Very few people on these forums are WTM purists. I personally do not use any WTM materials. :) (Obviously has never stopped me from posting and sharing on the forums!!! ;)) I would suspect that the majority of the posters on this forum are really not classically educating. I think the main attraction to these boards is that the moms here are serious about education and that is the theme that binds us all together here chatting and discussing.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I realize this was the wrong place to ask the question...and I'm not saying this in any type of mood or anything. It's just a fact - asking people who espouse the totality of a method are not the people to ask how to do part of it. :)

 

Oh, wait! Something else I can speak to! Most people here do not espouse the totality of the classical method. Even SWB, in one of her recent videos, said that each of her four kids has had a different education and that she could probably even sort them on a continuum from most classical to least classical. So there! :tongue_smilie:

 

All I've personally got for you is to take what you like and leave what you don't. That is what I do and, generally speaking, I am happy as a clam educating this way. I do think you can add classical elements to a traditional curriculum. Of course you can.

[PachiSusan]

Thing is that I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong place." Very few people on these forums are WTM purists. I personally do not use any WTM materials. :) (Obviously has never stopped me from posting and sharing on the forums!!! ;)) I would suspect that the majority of the posters on this forum are really not classically educating. I think the main attraction to these boards is that the moms here are serious about education and that is the theme that binds us all together here chatting and discussing.

 

Now THAT really is a surprise. It seems (my perception) is that any time in the last few months that I have posted anything remotely different from the purist perspective, there is a bite back.

 

I'm truly truly shocked and surprised - happily! I feel better knowing that there is a contingent of "gray" people here. I have constantly felt one down and odd man out because I used a boxed curriculum.

 

My perceptions are now challenged - in a good way! :)