How necessary is it to get our students through Calculus in high school?

[HappyGrace]

I realize that it differs depending on career choice-that STEM kids will likely need it. Do colleges insist on this if they will take Calc in college (someone was telling me that unless it is AP Calc, many colleges like students to take THEIR Calc classes because they are much more in depth than a high school course.) I even have an engineering friend who is not advising that his ds (senior this fall) get thru Calc in high school for this very reason.

 

I'm wondering all this with a dd in 7th grade who might want somewhat of a sci career like nursing or physical therapy. She doesn't love math and doesn't think mathematically, but she wants to make sure she has all the math she will need so we do have her in Pre-Alg this yr and it's going fine.

 

How necessary is it in general to get thru Calc in high school? Other than an obvious STEM leaning, what are your reasons for doing so?

 

I am fairly new on the HS board (after 11 yrs on K-8), so please feel free to direct me to other threads if this has been discussed before. Thanks!

[regentrude]

Short answer: it is NOT necessary to get through calculus in high school.

 

Longer answer:

While it is certainly beneficial for STEM students to have had an introduction to calculus in high school, it is not necessary. I teach calculus based physics at a STEM university, and the students who struggle with math do so because they have weak pre-algebra and algebra skills, NOT because they are lacking calculus!

It is much more important to take whatever time is needed to give the student a rock solid grounding in pre-algebra and algebra than to rush through math just so they can take calculus in high school.

 

For a student who did take calculus in high school, in most cases it is still beneficial to repeat calculus at the university. Repeated exposure to abstract concepts is helpful, and the student will have already some understanding and have his head free to pay attention to concepts rather than being mired in a sea of details.

[elegantlion]

We're not there yet, but this is the advice I'm using: Even if they are required to take calc in college, completing a class their senior year can be a good idea. This has certain benefits, including not trying to master calc while navigating the freshman year and all else that entails. Instead the class can be a refresher or used to solidify skills.

 

We set our plan to include Calc the senior year. Ds had some algebra glitches and we are finishing algebra in 9th (this year). Next year he wants to double up on math so he can still do Calc his senior year, as he may be interested in programming. There are plenty of other options if you decide not to do the class in high school, but I would still set it up to do so with a child bent in that direction. Plan as if, then be flexible.

[HappyGrace]

So it sounds like even for nursing or physical therapy, this would be beneficial, but not necessary. Does it make a difference to the colleges as far as their admission desirability (obviously depends on many factors, but do they prefer to see Calc in high school--will they take a student who has had Calc in high school over one who has not)?

 

We are absolutely spending time to get her solid in Pre-Alg and Alg-I have read the good advice many times on these boards that they are the foundation for the higher maths.

[Jane in NC]

Some nursing and physical therapy programs are highly competitive which means that you will want your student to have challenging coursework on her transcript for admission purposes. This might mean Calculus or Statistics if this is part of the natural math progression your student has seen in high school.

 

We took the less admirable route regarding Calculus. My son is a decent math student but does not like the subject. I knew that I could walk him through AP Calculus AB which in turn might fulfill a math requirement for him in college. I'll admit that I kept hoping that something in the subject might hook him so that he would carry on in math but no luck. Oh well. A girl can dream...

[FaithManor]

Some students will need it, others won't. I think it's beneficial if they've been good math students and they completed tri/pre-calc in 11th grade. Colleges to like to see challenging courses taken the senior year, not a light year.

 

But, I am.no.fan.of.rushing.to.it. Algebra, algebra, algebra...those skills must be solid because all future higher maths are tough if your algebra skills are poor. I like to see a dry run at algebra in 8th grade and if it doesn't go well, do it again in 9th.

 

There is a fine line between pushing too hard and not challenging enough. It can be different for each child in the same family. I'll have three that make it through calc 1 and one may also complete calc 2, but one will only complete pre-calc. He'll have to take calc 1 in college and that will the only math class required for his major. He'll make it, but we'll be encouraging the use of the learning lab and tutoring. Math doesn't come naturally to him the way it does for the others. Thankfully, he's still a pretty solid math guy...just needs a slow and steady approach and coaching. DH will also tutor him using skype. So, I think he'll get a B or better.

 

Faith

[AngieW in Texas]

Don't rush math. Take it at the pace your student can handle.

 

My oldest finished precal at home with Larson's in 11th grade and was going to take calculus in 12th at the cc, but she placed into trig instead, so she took trig and statistics. She only needed statistics and one math class for her major and anything from college algebra on up would count, so she didn't need to take any math at college.

 

My middle dd finished precal at home with Lial's in 11th grade and was going to take calculus in 12th at the cc, but missed the cutoff on the placement test by 2 points, so she is taking calculus at home this year using Thinkwell. She will need to take calculus at the college, but calc I and statistics are the only math classes she is going to need. Calc is not going as easily for her as she is used to for math. Thinkwell isn't a great fit for her. She is going to repeat calc at college and then take statistics.

 

My youngest is not going to do calculus. We are taking about 15 months to go through each level of MUS. She is in 9th grade this year. While she is working in Geometry now, she was still finishing up Algebra I at the beginning of the year and Algebra I is what I'm putting on her transcript because we are doing some pretty significant algebra review as well. She really struggled with Algebra I. She enjoys Geometry though. She will probably finish up Geometry in February next year and then we'll move on to MUS Algebra II. I will have her complete MUS Precalculus as well. I am hoping that with all of that, she'll be able to place into College Algebra and do well in it. I don't really expect her to go beyond that level. Math is a big struggle. She does pretty well with MUS, but MUS is a very light program with easier than normal problems.

[MIch elle]

Most nursing and physical therapy programs do NOT require calculus at all. Stats - YES; calc -no. Look at all the college websites you think have good nursing & DPT programs and see for yourself.

[Jane in NC]

Most nursing and physical therapy programs do NOT require calculus at all. Stats - YES; calc -no. Look at all the college websites you think have good nursing & DPT programs and see for yourself.

Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping that you would weigh in here since I know it is a topic you researched.

[momofkhm]

There is a fine line between pushing too hard and not challenging enough. It can be different for each child in the same family. I'll have three that make it through calc 1 and one may also complete calc 2, but one will only complete pre-calc. He'll have to take calc 1 in college and that will the only math class required for his major. He'll make it, but we'll be encouraging the use of the learning lab and tutoring. Math doesn't come naturally to him the way it does for the others.

 

 

This sounds like us too. Oldest is doing Calc 1 now in CC. Middle will not make it that high, prob through a 2 semester precalc at the CC. Youngest, who knows. Right now it looks like he will progres at least through calc 1, maybe calc 2.

 

To OP, look at the colleges your dd may go to. All the public colleges in NC have the same requirements for math. This is what NC State has on their website:

 

Mathematics: 4 years, in any of the following combinations:

--algebra I and II, geometry, and one unit beyond algebra II,

--algebra I and II, and two units beyond algebra II, or

--integrated math I, II, and III, and one unit beyond integrated math III.

--Students should have advanced math courses for serious consideration.

 

NC State is public uni that is the STEM school. They don't require calc. I'm sure that someone applying there with calc will be more favorably looked on than someone without though.

[Candid]

Before making any big decisions think carefully about where your dd will go and look at those places to see what they require. It's all well and good to move forward thinking I don't need to do XX based on what we say, it is much better to know that the colleges you will likely apply to don't require XX. You don't want to get to the senior or junior year and find out that the dream school requires something that you cannot get in (or will have to do back flips to fulfill).

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, everyone. I guess the last couple responses are why I feel we should prbly continue at this rate, if possible, to try to get thru Calc----because she is only 7th grade and we have NO idea what college she'll want, etc. Or indeed if she'll even stick w/ the nursing/physical therapy interest or go on to something totally different. Maybe something needing more math, maybe something needing less, but if we're not on track from now to get through Calc, I don't want it to possibly handicap her later.

 

I had no idea planning high school would require this much thinking ahead-lol! Thanks for the help to everyone who responded.

[Musicmom]

Thanks, everyone. I guess the last couple responses are why I feel we should prbly continue at this rate, if possible, to try to get thru Calc----because she is only 7th grade and we have NO idea what college she'll want, etc. Or indeed if she'll even stick w/ the nursing/physical therapy interest or go on to something totally different. Maybe something needing more math, maybe something needing less, but if we're not on track from now to get through Calc, I don't want it to possibly handicap her later.

I agree--7th grade is young to know where she'll be headed and what she'll need. I think putting her on a track to complete PreCalculus by the end of 11th grade would keep her options the most open. Then for 12th grade, she could do either Calculus or Statistics depending on her goals (you'll have a much better idea of where she's headed at that point.)

[Gwen in VA]

Most schools dont' require calculus, but do investigate what percentage of the entering freshmen have HAD calculus. If 95% of entering freshman have had calculus, it is (unofficially) a requirement. Not having calculus will be an obstacle in gaining admission to such a school.

 

In our college searches, we have looked at more than one highly-ranked (but admissions ~25% so not super-prestigious) that doesn't require calculus but pointedly says that most successful applicants have taken it.

[creekland]

Definitely don't rush math - I'm in agreement with the others about that. My two older boys took our local cc placement test and tested easily into Calc before doing it at home. Both did well (oldest using Chalkdust, middle using Thinkwell), but even then, I didn't have either take the AP test for credit. Both could have - I just thought they'd do better in college if they'd seen calc, but repeated it. In hindsight, oldest wishes he had gotten AP credit as he wouldn't have needeed any more math. Middle is content repeating it. Both have easy As, but oldest had an easier course since he's a Business major - middle is Brain and Cognitive Science.

 

Youngest is in our local public school and will not do Calc at all prior to college. Our school is not good with it and youngest is not particularly math talented (decent, but not good enough nor willing to teach himself). He will be taking Stats as a dual credit course, but even that course isn't a terribly good Stats course compared to the AP level middle son did at home (and got a 5 on that test). He's not looking at top colleges, so I suspect he'll be ok. If he needs Calc in college he probably won't be an A student, but hopefully, he'll pass. He is doing Pre-Calc now as a junior, so we left it until this year to decide for sure what he'd do next year. If he were heading to a top college or a technical (Calc-needing) major, not having Calc would hurt him and we'd have opted for doing it at high school, then repeating it at college so he could get a good foundation. When he goes to college I'm assuming they'll have a math placement test and will place him in a math class accordingly. He may not even test into Calc coming from his school. (That is common.)

[Home_s_Cool]

From our experience with dd18, who is now in college pursuing nursing, this is the path we followed:

 

At home she went through Pre-Cal.

 

To acclimate her to college (before sending her 1500+ miles away) she started taking cc classes at age 16 (technically her junior year of hs) and began with one class that fall semester: Pre-Cal. Our reasoning for repeating what we did at home - the material was familiar, so the major adjustment would be the classroom experience. The next semester she took Calculus and that was it for math.

 

This worked wonderfully - she gained major confidence and had to learn to advocate for herself - all while still at home.

 

As far as the requirements for the nursing program she is now in (bachelor degree) - she went way beyond the math requirement. But my dh (mechanical engineer) believes in a strong math background, especially since this was an area of her strength.

[flyingiguana]

One of the colleges my daughter applied to had its own calc placement test. A student could have placed out of the first semester of calc even if they hadn't taken the AP test. I don't know how common that is. (This was also true of the college I went to, but that was, well, a few years back.)

 

I'd go ahead and do calc in high school if the student was ready. If nothing else, it will solidify algebra skills. Most of calc is algebra, when you get right down to it. There are some new concepts, but if the student can't apply the algebra the calc part is kind of useless. So for a student who won't ever need calc in their future, it might still be worth doing, if only to really get those algebra skills down.

 

But there's no way to predict where a current 7th grader will be in a few years. Some kids do speed through the earlier math, and then need to slow down later, so it's really no use worrying about it too many years in advance. Also, she/you may decide that some other math would be more appropriate in the senior year.

 

The best advice is to just keep plugging away at challenging, but do-able, math, and just see where she ends up.

 

But it isn't *needed* in high school. Even a lot of our physics majors where I work come in without any calc. It's not a real impediment.

[J-rap]

Well, we didn't, but then again my children aren't going into careers that will require higher math. They did get into colleges of their choice and got good scholarships. My original plan was to cover calculus, but I soon realized it was more important for us to take our time and have algebra down solid rather than rushing it. We spent 2-1/2 to 3 years on Algebra I and II, and 1 year on Geometry. We did attempt a semester of Trig, but it was rather laughable.

[lamolina]

Also, most physical therapy programs are doctoral programs and are applied to separately from undergrad, so at that point your high school classes won't really matter. They will be looking at your college grades, particularly prerequisites. This may not be the case at all schools, so make sure to check the specific schools where she plans to apply!