HS math track for an average student wanting to be an artist

[Maureen]

I have one daughter entering 9th grade this fall. She is a very average student and has already been passed up mathwise by her two younger sisters. She is currently doing MUS Algebra I. She forgets previous concepts and does terribly on the tests (I think she would do better without the multiple choice possibilities). She is a fabulous artist and will definitely NOT be a STEM student.

 

I have talked to her about doing math for 4 years in HS and think we need to do Algebra I over again. She doesn't really have it mastered yet, and I definitely don't want to touch Calculus with her later. In 7th grade she did TT Pre-Algebra and didn't do well either. She didn't really like the format and never wanted to watch the videos. Once she learns how to plug-and-chug a particular type of problem, she's fine until it is written a different way or she hasn't seen it in a couple of weeks. She is also not strong on quick recall of math facts.

 

I have all of the Fred books, but worry that she will only get into the story and not really learn the math.

 

I have Lial's Intro Algebra book, but the page is awfully cluttered for her. (She is easily distracted.) That is why I liked the MUS book because the pages are so clean.

 

I have AoPS for her younger sister who is already doing Geometry, but I don't think it is a good fit for her.

 

What other programs should I look at? She really needs to get the basics down. She is also SLOW!!! She lives in her own creative dream world most of the time, so this concrete math thing of writing out steps and having to do it the same way every time is a struggle.

 

Should I do some sort of consumer math with her next year and come back to Algebra later?

 

Thanks in advance.

[regentrude]

I am concerned that you say she did do poorly in pre-algebra. In my experience, most problems students have with algebra can be traced back to a lack of prealgebra skills, particularly fractions. I would not have advanced a student to any algebra 1 program in 8th grade who did not have a thorough mastery of prealgebra, which does not seem to be the case for your DD. Why do you have her study algebra on an advanced schedule if she struggles with math?

I would stop algebra now and go back to a review of pre-algebra for the remainder of the school year. Only after this has been mastered, I would begin algebra 1 in 9th grade again.

[Mom22ns]

Did you say she did poorly in pre-algebra? I'm not seeing that. Having used both MUS Algebra and Lial's, I would strongly recommend you have her do Lial's next. It covers the exact same topics. The problems are more challenging. The only thing she won't have covered is the last chapter of Lial's. The rest will all be review- redo, but hopefully won't feel like treading water with the change in layout and some more challenging problems.

 

I do understand about the Lial's layout being distracting. I would teach her the lessons rather than her trying to read and understand them. If you've watched and understood the MUS Algebra, you can do this (ask me how I know :)) When she is doing problems, you might have her keep a half sheet of black paper to block half the page at a time to make it less visually overwhelming.

 

The similarity in topics, order of topics and method of teaching (mastery based) is so similar between these texts, it is really an easy move. Dd moved from MUS to Lial's half way through the year and was able to just pick up at the next chapter as if she'd been doing it all along.

[regentrude]

Did you say she did poorly in pre-algebra? I'm not seeing that.

 

The OP wrote:

"In 7th grade she did TT Pre-Algebra and didn't do well either. She didn't really like the format and never wanted to watch the videos. Once she learns how to plug-and-chug a particular type of problem, she's fine until it is written a different way or she hasn't seen it in a couple of weeks. She is also not strong on quick recall of math facts."

[Julie of KY]

I'd keep plugging away on algebra or go back and master topics that are giving her trouble. I might also start consumer math (if she's ready) and just take the algebra slow and steady. IF she were to complete comsumer math in one year and take two years to do algebra she still will have completed two years of math in two years.

 

My artist does multiple math programs slow and steady - it's really paid off on her math skills.

[EKS]

I have one daughter entering 9th grade this fall. She is a very average student and has already been passed up mathwise by her two younger sisters. She is currently doing MUS Algebra I. She forgets previous concepts and does terribly on the tests (I think she would do better without the multiple choice possibilities). She is a fabulous artist and will definitely NOT be a STEM student.

 

 

 

Whenever I see someone saying something like the bolded, I always feel compelled to tell my story.

 

I failed prealgebra and had to take it again in summer school. Then I failed Algebra I and had to take it again in summer school. Then I failed geometry and had to take it again the next year. Then I got a D in Algebra II and didn't take any more math in high school.

 

I was an artist and musician and poet. In my junior and senior years of high school I spent at least five hours a day painting (pictures). I took AP Studio Art. I was the editor of the school's literary magazine for three years. And I played the guitar at home for hours at a time.

 

Fast forward two years. I ended up majoring in biochemistry and had to take quarter after quarter of math intensive courses (as well as three quarters of calculus). After college, I worked as a scientist for ten years.

 

People can surprise you.

 

All of that said, I would recommend backing up to Lial's Basic College Math. I would teach it to her so she doesn't need to see the book other than for the problem sets. Lial is set up so that they teach a concept, give an example, and then give a few practice problems just like the example. It is important to keep a kid who is struggling with math actively engaged. So I would teach the concept and present the example to her quickly then have her do the practice problems while you're sitting there. Repeat until you have done a day's worth of material and then assign the corresponding problems at the end of the section.

 

Lial is also great for finding gaps and filling them. You can present the example problem to her and if she can do it with no problem, then move on, if not, go ove the example with her and have her do the practice problems.

[Maureen]

Thanks for the background, Kai.

 

I haven't wanted to let up on math because I don't want to limit her options in the future. I do sit next to her doing math everyday now. I have been hoping that she would gradually become more independent but that is not to be yet. It is very difficult to keep her on task even with me at the table, and unfortunately that is for every subject. Her two younger sisters are becoming more independent though, and so I guess I have the time to sit with her. It is difficult for me to not get frustrated because math is easy for me and I get tired of re-explaining the concept for the 1000th time. :banghead:

 

I also feel sorry for her because she has very little time some days for pursuing her art since I insist she gets the basic subjects finished first and she works at a snail's pace.

[jibaker103]

Math is one of the areas that I wish I had followed my gut on earlier for my ds. When I pulled him out of 7th grade math test scores were at a 4th grade level! We tried TT and Khan Academy before settling on Lial's. My big mistake was rushing through Pre-Algebra the summer before 9th grade because the online school he was joining would not allow 9th graders take anything but Algebra 1. His fall semester of 9th grade was a complete and utter math disaster which cause many tears, self-doubt, and depression! That spring and summer I had him attempt pre-algebra again but every time my son got so far and hit a brick wall. I did not pickup on the fact that I needed to start further back until I discovered MUS in 10th grade. I had him start all the way back in Gamma (multiplication) and it has made a world of difference. Over the past 1.5 years I have seen my son get excited when a light bulb goes off and he says "so that's how it's done!" So, now here we are in the spring semester of 11th grade starting MUS Algebra 1 along with a book called Painless Algebra. So far so good but because I didn't start far enough back from the beginning I'm not sure if he will make it through Algebra 2 in enough time before graduating. The best advice I can give is if you see a problem stop and back track far enough to be successful and don't worry about rushing. Go at her pace so she thoroughly understands math and then she will take off and fly!

[at the beach]

There is a book called Basic Algebra by Brown, Smith and Dolciani that you might want to look at. http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Algebra-Richard-G-Brown/dp/0395564808 You can also get a teacher edition for it. For arithmetic review, have you considered the Key To books? Also, for basic math fact recall, with multiplication/division, skip counting can be helpful.

[Nscribe]

I would be asking some other questions.

 

How does she learn best? You have tried MUS and TT (noting the format/videos were and issue). You have ruled out Life of Fred because you are concerned she might get lost in the "story". When she encounters something she is not familiar with but wants to do/learn, how does she tackle it? Is she a read the manual type? Or does she fearlessly play with it until it works tossing the manual aside? Does she ask a friend to demonstrate? Does she go online to search a new art technique, or does she grab a book or prefer a live class? If she has tried a foreign language, what did she seem to pick up first in it words meanings or sounds? If the only way she could get something she wants is to learn something complicated what way would she self select to learn it (live class, videos she can replay, books, digital game...)?

 

I would also ask some others questions:

Does she like any part of math? Is she more compliant or does she prefer to forge her own path? Is she competitive? What medium of art (painting, sketching, sculpting, 3D construction...)? Aside from Art, what would be her favorite subject academically (the one she chooses to work on)? Which subject is she willing to persist in (shows resilence) whether it comes easily at first or not?

 

If asked the following question what does she answer: Math is most like? (put each in order of most true) (a) a new language to learn (B) a jigsaw puzzle to solve © a how to guide? (d) fill in the blank

 

Understanding how Dd prefers to encounter material and what her sense of it is helped us find what worked for her. Ultimately, in math, we wound up with a program that is not what I would have thought initially she would like or thrive in at all. Now that we have done it for years it makes more and more sense to me why she does. Taking her to a store with a wide array of choices and letting her select was worth the time, drive and effort. She owns her math learning and that alone is worth loads in being able to progress.

 

Then, I had to recognize that what worked for her, did not work for me in the process of assuring I was staying ahead of her and refreshing myself.

[Nscribe]

 

People can surprise you.

 

 

 

EKS's story is huge. I know so many who either wrote off or were written off in relation to math who later found what worked for them. An aside: I increasing think the reason we have so few people enter engineering is we send the message you must have an A+ demonstrated aptitude in math before you turn age 20 to ever be an engineer. We throw away those who may be sufficiently competent in math and incredibly creative too early in the game.

[SailorMom]

Is it possible she is dyscalculic?

Her issues sound similar to my son's.

I, like EKS, think 14 is way to young to assume anything about what a kid might do after high school. I mean - you very well could be right - but what if her senior year she all of the sudden decides she LOVES physics, or something?

I'm not saying she has to do calculus - but I would say teach for mastery. If she is very strong in Algebra, Geometry, and Algebra 2 she could probably go into a college algebra class without difficulty.

My DS - the one with all the LD's - wants to be an engineer right now. He struggles with, well, everything - lol. But - we just bust our rears on it all.

I say go back, retrace your steps, clear up any confusion in pre-algebra and then go through algebra again until she gets it.

[Mom22ns]

The OP wrote:

"In 7th grade she did TT Pre-Algebra and didn't do well either. She didn't really like the format and never wanted to watch the videos. Once she learns how to plug-and-chug a particular type of problem, she's fine until it is written a different way or she hasn't seen it in a couple of weeks. She is also not strong on quick recall of math facts."

 

Thanks Regentrude. I read that 3 times and just couldn't make myself see the pre-.

 

That said, I agree with those who say backup. I'd go back to Lial's BCM and see if you can get her through that successfully, then move on to Lial's Algebra. If the format is just too overwhelming, I'd back up and do a pre-algebra program with a format she can live with, maybe MUS. You might even try doing some placement tests. It may be that her fraction or decimal skills are what is causing the problem and she needs to fix that BEFORE taking on pre-algebra. That is one reason to go with BCM, it will cover those basics before moving forward.

 

Once you are sure she is ready, then start over in Algebra. She won't succeed in math until you find where she got lost and help her gain understanding, not just the ability to plug and chug.

[retiredHSmom]

 

EKS's story is huge. I know so many who either wrote off or were written off in relation to math who later found what worked for them. An aside: I increasing think the reason we have so few people enter engineering is we send the message you must have an A+ demonstrated aptitude in math before you turn age 20 to ever be an engineer. We throw away those who may be sufficiently competent in math and incredibly creative too early in the game.

 

Agreed, my daughter, who is a freshman in college right now, was accepted to the top public art school in the nation. She entered the art program as a freshman this last fall with every intention of graduation with an art degree.

 

She hated the art program, she hated that she no longer loved to create art but that it was a chore, she hated that they didn't critique her art technique but rather the emotions behind it.

 

She dropped out of the art program and is now a mechanical engineering major. She chose the major after studying the schools departments and class lists. She loves it. She is happy again and has straight A's

 

People can surprise you.

[Maureen]

Thanks all for taking the time to chime in.

 

Nscribe - Thanks for the list of questions. I'll have to give those some thought. She loves to read, but definitely prefers fiction to non-fiction. She has persevered through 4 years of Latin even though it is hard for her and I have, in frustration, given her the opportunity to quit more than once. I think one of the hardest things is that I am teaching a pack. She is only 6 months older than her next sister (She is adopted) and her 11 year old sister is very bright. So all three are working at about the same level. All of their coursework is the same except for math. She knows they are ahead of her and I'm sure that bugs her since she is older. She is by far the best artist in the house, but because that isn't a graded class, I think she downplays her talents in comparison to theirs.

 

She is by far my hardest child to homeschool. We all took a Multiple Intelligences test last month for fun and surprise, surprise - her highest scores were my lowest and my highest were her lowest.

 

I will look into Lial's BCM. I guess if I have to, I could type/write out just the problems I want her to do so that I can give her a clean page to look at when working.

 

I have dropped Algebra with her this week. She is currently reading from the Fred elementary series and I'm going to have her make Robinsunne's Multiplication clock.

 

She has never shown interest/aptitude for creative math problem solving. I'm wondering if there are any "gentle" intros to this type of math that she could do.

 

How hard would it be to combine Khan with AoPS Pre-Algebra or Lial's BCM?

[KarenNC]

I've recently had to drop back on Saxon algebra 1/2 a bit for my art-loving, humanities-focused daughter. Her standardized testing has always shown a large difference between math and verbal skils. We hit a wall about lesson 101, so I'm letting her work with Khan Academy online for the next couple of weeks (so she can work on the practice problems rather than just watch the videos). I've actually just given her free reign on it for a bit and she's going back over a lot of earlier concepts. She wants to fill in the web :) and get the badges. I find it amusing that my math-despising child doesn't want to get off the math website. She's also enjoying the games at Hooda Math and CoolMath. I figure that this will help patch over any weak spots that are potentially giving her issues as we approach algebra. Xtramath.org helped her tremendously with math fact recall.

 

I also thought LoF would be right up her alley, but she enjoyed the story and really didn't get any math from it. She needs the structure and repetition of Saxon. This was a hard-learned lesson because I tried for several years to make Singapore work because *I* liked it. I'm a math/science person and I *totally* get the frustration of trying to explain what to me is a very straightforward problem 5000 times!

[Nscribe]

Dd chose Saxon. The choice did not make sense to me. She is an artist, very verbal, very demonstrative, very musical and very creative. To look at a Saxon text.......well read what Regentrude says repeatedly (dull, lifeless...). After thinking about the questions, working with her for several years and trying to figure out Dd's attachment to Saxon...I think it is beginning to dawn on me. She may love to live in a world of wonder, think deviantly, contruct, create, talk and move, but she absolutely detests being toyed with or entertained when she sees something as serious business (she is not at all amused by the busy chatty nature of some texts). She loves math, it is serious business. This kid looks at Saxon and beings to generate music and poetry -- that is her greatest struggle (she keeps blank staff lined paper in her notebook) ... she jokes that if she needs inspiration she opens the book. I guess it is like looking at a lump of clay, some see what it can be, others see clay. Dd doesn't want it already polished, she wants it bare. She compares the spiraling to practing guitar or doing scales for voice. Yes, we have talked about this a lot. It really baffled me.

 

I also suspect the independence of it appeals greatly to her. Although I teach, tie together concepts and pull examples from elsewhere, she could do it on her own.

 

Dd does very well with math in a wide variety of contexts. At some point, I just accepted what worked.

 

This is why I say it may be worth a drive to some place where your Dd could really examine what the choices are.

[letsplaymath]

Whatever math program you end up using, I recommend you accompany it with Danica McKellar's books. Math Doesn't Suck covers upper-level arithmetic, and Kiss My Math is prealgebra. McKellar can be busy-chatty, but she has a way of explaining things that helps them stick, and her emphasis on being strong enough to take math head-on is wonderfully encouraging.

[AngieW in Texas]

I struggled with my youngest dd for two years trying to get all of those prealgebra skills down solidly. They would not stick. She did all of the Key to books and did the Math Mammoth fraction/decimal/percent worksheets and did lots of other worksheets specifically for fractions/decimals/percents as well. She completely understands these at the basic level, but not at the more advanced level.

 

In 7th grade, I moved hr into prealgebra with MUS. While it didn't work all that well, it was better than the other options I had tried.

In 8th grade, I moved her into MUS algebra I. While this was a struggle for her, it went much better than prealgebra had.

In 9th grade, she finished up MUS algebra I and started geometry. Geometry has been a great program for her. It makes sense to her in a way that algebra and prealgebra never did.

She probably won't finish geometry until December and then she'll start Algebra II which will probably take her through the end of 11th grade. Then she'll have 12th grade to get through precalculus (although we may end up switching to some kind of consumer math course if we need to).

[Melissa B]

My drama/music dd has decided to go with Saxon as well. We used it some when she was younger. She really, really dislikes math. This year we did Chalkdust Basic math so I could get a really good idea where she was struggling most. It wound up being primarily fractions and fraction conversions. We are working on those now with the Chalkdust DVDs, LOF fractions and Key to Fractions. It was her choice to move back to Saxon Algebra 1/2 this fall for 8th grade. She likes the consistent layout and the fact that there will only be 30 problems each day. She also likes the exams (of only 20 questions) each week to evaluate how she is doing and the solutions manual to get a better understanding of exactly how to solve the more difficult problems. She plans to use Saxon Algebra 1/2, 1, and 2 for 8th - 10th and then on to College Algebra and Statistics as a DE student in 11th and 12th.

[kiana]

I would definitely repeat the recommendation to go back and make sure pre-algebra is strong. I would especially check her mastery of fractions -- imo whether a student is strong in fractions or not is a huge check to see if they're ready for algebra.

[Catwoman]

My advice is a bit different from everyone else's, but still sort of similar. :rolleyes: If I were you, I would forget about using a specific curriculum for now, and drill her until she knows all of her basic (addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division) math facts. Then, review things like fractions and decimals. Once she has all that down pat, I think you should repeat pre-Algebra before moving on to Algebra 1. (Hopefully, she will move quickly through the facts and the review, but definitely work at her pace, not at a pace you think she should be able to work.)

 

It does no good to worry about how many math courses she will take in high school, if she's already not doing well. I have a feeling that she may very well surprise you with her math aptitude once she's confident that she knows the basics. Whatever the case, she's better off knowing fewer things very well, than not knowing very much at all about a lot of things. As an example, what good is it to say she is done with Algebra 2, if she did very poorly at it, and still doesn't understand it?

[swimmermom3]

I would second the opinions of backing her up to the appropriate level with a special emphasis on mastering percentages, fractions, and decimals. Let go of any preconceived notion of where she "needs" to be. If you work diligently to solidify her pre-algebra and algebra skills, you may be pleasantly surprised in her ability to gain back some ground in the later years. I am also glad to some support for Saxon as my highly artistic ds actually found the Saxon texts to be a relief. Saxon 7/6 and 8/7 are both strong volumes and I was pleased with the results.

 

Remember too, that you can do some problems orally and if the problems require a great deal of writing, you can do some of that for her with your dd dictating the steps for you. Also, if she struggles with math, I would try to do it year round so she doesn't loose ground over the summer.

[Heathermomster]

Whenever I see someone saying something like the bolded, I always feel compelled to tell my story.

 

I failed prealgebra and had to take it again in summer school. Then I failed Algebra I and had to take it again in summer school. Then I failed geometry and had to take it again the next year. Then I got a D in Algebra II and didn't take any more math in high school.

 

I was an artist and musician and poet. In my junior and senior years of high school I spent at least five hours a day painting (pictures). I took AP Studio Art. I was the editor of the school's literary magazine for three years. And I played the guitar at home for hours at a time.

 

Fast forward two years. I ended up majoring in biochemistry and had to take quarter after quarter of math intensive courses (as well as three quarters of calculus). After college, I worked as a scientist for ten years.

 

People can surprise you.

 

All of that said, I would recommend backing up to Lial's Basic College Math. I would teach it to her so she doesn't need to see the book other than for the problem sets. Lial is set up so that they teach a concept, give an example, and then give a few practice problems just like the example. It is important to keep a kid who is struggling with math actively engaged. So I would teach the concept and present the example to her quickly then have her do the practice problems while you're sitting there. Repeat until you have done a day's worth of material and then assign the corresponding problems at the end of the section.

 

Lial is also great for finding gaps and filling them. You can present the example problem to her and if she can do it with no problem, then move on, if not, go ove the example with her and have her do the practice problems.

 

Where does Lial's fit? Is it between pre-algebra and algebra? I'm confused by that.

 

In school, the highest math DH took was algebra. FIL told me DH was utterly hopeless and gave up on DH;s math ability in 8th grade. In junior college, DH first took trigonometry and algebra and did very well. I taught DH algebra and we still laugh about that. Basically, DH grew up and is an engineer. He's brilliant.

[EKS]

Where does Lial's fit? Is it between pre-algebra and algebra? I'm confused by that.

 

 

Lial's Basic College Math is a systematic review of arithmetic with some prealgebra at the end. It can serve as a prealgebra course and is good for kids whose arithmetic skills aren't completely solidified.