Math: spiral vs. mastery

[Aspasia]

Which one would you say is better for a child who isn't exactly a memory wizard?

 

We've been using MM 1 after finishing Singapore EM K a few months ago. We're taking MM slow, but nothing seems to be sticking. Would a spiral program be better for her?

[KellyMama]

I'm using spiral for my oldest (Saxon) and it's been the best thing for her up to this point. I think she actually needs a combo of mastery and spiral now that she's hitting algebra, so we might not stay with Saxon forever. It's been a solid experience for her because she would very likely forget previously learned concepts if she didn't have to circle back to them every day!

[boscopup]

Are you using manipulatives with MM? Is this still a K aged child? It could be just developmental and have nothing to do with mastery vs spiral. In MM1A, you shouldn't have much to "review", as that whole book works on addition and subtraction facts. Maria Miller writes in her instructions that facts should be memorized by the end of 2nd grade. So I would recommend making manipulatives available as long as the child needs them. I personally use C-rods, but anything will do.

[Ellie]

I'm using spiral for my oldest (Saxon) and it's been the best thing for her up to this point. I think she actually needs a combo of mastery and spiral now that she's hitting algebra, so we might not stay with Saxon forever. It's been a solid experience for her because she would very likely forget previously learned concepts if she didn't have to circle back to them every day!

 

Technically, Saxon isn't spiral; it's incremental. :-)

[Ellie]

I'm not convinced that spiral vs mastery is all that important. I think either one could be helpful for any child, depending on how the specific publisher presents the concepts.

 

I think for young children, choosing between process math (one which uses manipulatives, such as MUS or Miquon) and traditional math (such as Rod and Staff) might be something to ponder.

[Aspasia]

Are you using manipulatives with MM? Is this still a K aged child? It could be just developmental and have nothing to do with mastery vs spiral. In MM1A, you shouldn't have much to "review", as that whole book works on addition and subtraction facts. Maria Miller writes in her instructions that facts should be memorized by the end of 2nd grade. So I would recommend making manipulatives available as long as the child needs them. I personally use C-rods, but anything will do.

 

She uses manipulatives every day, for every part of the lesson. She mainly likes C-rods and the abacus.

 

Yeah, we're still hanging out with subtraction. It's not the math facts that are a problem (I haven't really focused on having her memorize them yet). It's more that she isn't retaining how to solve the various kinds of problems. For example, she can do missing addend problems if that's what the whole page is about, and only after I remind her how. But after weeks of doing that, if she does even one other type of problem (say, straight addition, even), when she sees another missing addend, it's like she's never seen it before. Does that make sense? And it's with EVERY type of problem.

 

I have thought about it being developmental. I wonder if I just shelve it for a few months if we might be in a better place. That certainly happened with reading. And yes, she's still kindergarten age, so I've slowed down considerably. She finished the SM K book super quickly and easily. That's why I moved forward. I just don't really know where to go with math if we shelve MM.

[RootAnn]

Elle, I think you are great, but I have to disagree. If you have a kid who forgets how to tie their shoes if they don't do it every day for a week & then once a day every third day & eventually get to once per week, spiral is definitely necessary.

 

My kids would have to relearn each concept repeatedly if we used a full mastery curriculum. While a tight spiral might not be necessary for all of them, it is much better for *my* kids because they don't remember things well if they aren't exposed to them on a regular basis. (I'm the same way, BTW. My dh is completely different. Once he knows something, he *knows* it. I 'forgot' how to do long-hand multi-digit multiplication somewhere between high school and teaching my own kids -- and I'm an engineer! I had the concept down, so I just had to reteach myself from the idea.)

 

To the OP -- Miquon-type math (see The First Grade Diary for ideas) would be an idea. Or just read her cool books about math. See Living Math -- reader lists. And keep playing with the c-rods & abacus. And skip counting. And work on place value.

[amyrobynne]

I'm not convinced that spiral vs mastery is all that important.

 

What exactly is the difference?

[Aspasia]

Elle, I think you are great, but I have to disagree. If you have a kid who forgets how to tie their shoes if they don't do it every day for a week & then once a day every third day & eventually get to once per week, spiral is definitely necessary.

 

My kids would have to relearn each concept repeatedly if we used a full mastery curriculum. While a tight spiral might not be necessary for all of them, it is much better for *my* kids because they don't remember things well if they aren't exposed to them on a regular basis. (I'm the same way, BTW. My dh is completely different. Once he knows something, he *knows* it. I 'forgot' how to do long-hand multi-digit multiplication somewhere between high school and teaching my own kids -- and I'm an engineer! I had the concept down, so I just had to reteach myself from the idea.)

 

To the OP -- Miquon-type math (see The First Grade Diary for ideas) would be an idea. Or just read her cool books about math. See Living Math -- reader lists. And keep playing with the c-rods & abacus. And skip counting. And work on place value.

 

 

The bolded is what makes me think spiral might work better for my dd. That describes her perfectly.

 

See, I'm the opposite. Sounds like I'm more like your dh, RootAnn. It makes it really hard for me to understand what is going on with dd--I just can't figure out how she could possibly forget! And it's not just with math, or even school. Her gifts just lie in places other than memory. ;)

[Mommy22alyns]

First, I would shelve it for a while. She's still 5.

 

Second, your description makes me think that spiral would work best. It's been fantastic for Rebecca.

[Ellie]

Elle, I think you are great, but I have to disagree. If you have a kid who forgets how to tie their shoes if they don't do it every day for a week & then once a day every third day & eventually get to once per week, spiral is definitely necessary.

 

Well, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. :-)

 

But a good "mastery" program doesn't drop concepts; it continues to use them and build on them.

[mamamindy]

I am curious about this "mastery" vs. "spiral" thing, too....

 

We are using Singapore Math (mastery?) but my DD also needs to revisit things. So we use their supplemental books for review so things aren't forgotten. Is this like spiral? I am sorry to interrupt your thread, I am curious...

[Chrysalis Academy]

I totally agree that programs I see called "mastery" programs, like MM, don't drop concepts, but review and build on them.

 

But, I also see a huge difference between a program like MM and a program like TT or the Houghton-Mifflin math my kids used in ps - both highly spiral programs. To me, the key difference is, does a program give the students enough time/practice with a concept to feel confident with it before moving on? Or does it teach a new concept, do 5 problems, then spend the rest of the lesson on a hodge-podge of material from the previous 5 or 10 lessons? This kind of spiral approach doesn't work for my kids for learning new material. It just creates a big, confused jumble in their minds. So for us, whether a program is spiral or mastery makes a huge difference.

 

I actually like mastery approaches for learning new concepts, and think spiral is fine for review. So we like to put together something like MM, which is an incremental/mastery program, with something like LOF, which is actually really spiral, in that you get a small amount of practice with a new concept, and constant review of previously taught concepts. LOF Fractions wasn't enough to teach my dd fractions, but it and the Decimals/Percents book are keeping the ideas fresh, and teaching her how to extend the concepts and apply them to new situations. It's a nice combo for us.

[acsnmama]

Well, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. :-)

 

But a good "mastery" program doesn't drop concepts; it continues to use them and build on them.

 

I agree.

[Mommy22alyns]

Well, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. :-)

 

But a good "mastery" program doesn't drop concepts; it continues to use them and build on them.

 

You?!?!? Never! :svengo: ;)

[RootAnn]

LOL! My kids could forget what color "blue" is when they are younger (say less than 7). I will say that their long-term memory improves as they get older -- for things they see often enough. I think that's why spelling is finally clicking with my oldest. She's finally able to remember how to spell "said" or "when" after six thousand times seeing & writing it. (Dd#2 can still forget both of these perhaps because she's only seen/written them four thousand times or because she's only nine. I'm hopeful that they'll eventually "stick.")

 

A "mastery" program (like MM or Singapore) wouldn't work for (most of) my kids. There just isn't enough constant review of the same concepts. It doesn't matter if you do multiplication and subtraction as part of division. If they don't see multiple digit multiplication frequently, it is like they never learned it. Same with certain types of subtraction. If you don't have a kid like this, you may not realize what I'm talking about & how important this is. :hat:

[Ellie]

 

You?!?!? Never! :svengo: ;)

 

I know, right? Blows my mind, too!

 

:lol:

[cassafraz]

So, how do you know which to try? Is it just a shot in the dark? We will be starting k in the fall, or maybe this summer, and I am trying to figure out which to use... Everyone seems to be so pro singapore, MM, etc. that it is easy to assume that mastery is the end all cure all for the math woes of the world. :blink: Which it obviously is not. (Sorry to interrupt the thread)

[Mommy22alyns]

So, how do you know which to try? Is it just a shot in the dark? We will be starting k in the fall, or maybe this summer, and I am trying to figure out which to use... Everyone seems to be so pro singapore, MM, etc. that it is easy to assume that mastery is the end all cure all for the math woes of the world. :blink: Which it obviously is not. (Sorry to interrupt the thread)

 

 

 

I had to do a lot of trial and error. There's no shame in finding a solid program that works for you and your child, even if it is dry and not flashy and not Singapore. When you find that thing that works, stop reading math threads here!

[wapiti]

She uses manipulatives every day, for every part of the lesson. She mainly likes C-rods and the abacus.

 

Yeah, we're still hanging out with subtraction. It's not the math facts that are a problem (I haven't really focused on having her memorize them yet). It's more that she isn't retaining how to solve the various kinds of problems. For example, she can do missing addend problems if that's what the whole page is about, and only after I remind her how. But after weeks of doing that, if she does even one other type of problem (say, straight addition, even), when she sees another missing addend, it's like she's never seen it before. Does that make sense? And it's with EVERY type of problem.

 

I have thought about it being developmental. I wonder if I just shelve it for a few months if we might be in a better place. That certainly happened with reading. And yes, she's still kindergarten age, so I've slowed down considerably. She finished the SM K book super quickly and easily. That's why I moved forward. I just don't really know where to go with math if we shelve MM.

 

 

What I would try in this case: put MM aside for a bit. I love MM but it might not be the right thing for this period of time. I'd play with C-rods, using Rosie's videos and/or Miquon, for a few months. Then I'd pick MM back up down the road - at that time you may find that you've already covered many topics in MM1 and can skip ahead.

 

Alternatively, take advantage of the flexibility of MM, and mix in a little daily review - instead of assigning all the problems on a page, leave some for another day; then go back and do a problem on five different pages or something or print review worksheets from the worksheet generator.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yeah, it is kind of trial and error to figure it out. My dd had been doing spiral at ps, and neither of us liked it, without really realizing why. When she came home in 4th grade, we tried TT and MM. We both agreed quickly that she was learning and retaining *way* more with MM, and that what we didn't like about TT (just a few problems on the lesson, then lots of problems on previous lessons) was exactly what we hadn't liked about ps math. So it became clear pretty quickly.

 

But I agree, unless you have a kid who leans strongly one way or the other, it probably doesn't matter to much (so, see, Ellie is right after all - except when she's wrong! ;) :D )

[ByGrace3]

We kind of like a touch of both mastery and spiral around here. For new topics we like the mastery of MM. Introduce a new topic and spend enough time on it to actually master it. Love that! My dd really needs a lot of review though. She will often see something in a cumulative review and she acts like she has never seen it before. I now know not to panic. ;) I remind her with one or two problems and see how she does. If after a brief reminder she "remembers" we move on. She will see it again on the test and I will then know if she can do it on her own. If she still struggles and struggles again on the test, we revisit the topic either by printing pages again or doing the cumulative review again. Some topics we keep on a review cycle. We use the Right Start games as review on the topics that we need more regular practice on.

[shell0830]

I have a dd who struggles to remember things. We switched to TT (spiral) and everything is finally clicking for her.

[k3bzr18]

Is Singapore considered a mastery program?

:confused1:

[Tracy]

I have read that most children do best with spiral. But kids on either end of the bell curve (i.e., either have signficant learning challenges or are highly gifted) do better with mastery. Those with learning challenges do better with mastery because it allows them to focus on one thing at a time. Gifted kids do better with mastery, because they learn quickly and do not need as much repetition.

 

Obviously, this is a huge generalization, so take it FWIW.

[Aspasia]

I have read that most children do best with spiral. But kids on either end of the bell curve (i.e., either have signficant learning challenges or are highly gifted) do better with mastery. Those with learning challenges do better with mastery because it allows them to focus on one thing at a time. Gifted kids do better with mastery, because they learn quickly and do not need as much repetition.

 

Obviously, this is a huge generalization, so take it FWIW.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

[ebunny]

Which one would you say is better for a child who isn't exactly a memory wizard?

 

We've been using MM 1 after finishing Singapore EM K a few months ago. We're taking MM slow, but nothing seems to be sticking. Would a spiral program be better for her?

 

 

Spiral for Arithmetic. Algorithms, "facts" and everything in between. By spiral, I mean that the kids are working on different strands of Arithmetic concurrently and you ramp up the difficulty every few months or so. Keep bringing back the old stuff in a new avatar. :-)

It takes a good year or 2 sometimes to get Arithmetic into the long term memory. Personally, mastery approach to Arithmetic would drive 'me' bonkers.

 

 

[Mom22ns]

Well, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. :-)

 

But a good "mastery" program doesn't drop concepts; it continues to use them and build on them.

 

I don't think you are wrong. My ds has multiple LDs and was known for literally forgetting he was going to the bathroom when he was running there in an emergency. He could never keep concepts day to day and week to week. MUS was the best math we ever tried for him by FAR! Spirals left him lost.

 

I think the really common misconception is that mastery programs don't review and that just isn't true. MUS has as much review as it does new material in every lesson. In upper levels, it has more review than new material each lesson.

 

There is more than mastery vs spiral in picking which curriculum works for a child.

[ChristusG]

Spiral....definitely spiral for DD8. We began with Math U See...we got through the first book when I realized that this just wasn't working for us. So we switched to Abeka. Both DD and I love Abeka! I know that Abeka is "notorious" for just being a textbook but it definitely works for DD. When she learns a new concept, they throw it in a bunch of times in the book and even in the book for the next year as well. DD is very good at math (she's in third grade, but working on the 4th grade Abeka book....even then, Abeka is usually more advance so some of this could even be 5th grade work) but she needs that spiral curriculum to bring it back around and refresh it in her mind.

[cassafraz]

Thanks a lot guys. I have considered doing MM or Singapore because of the different way that they approach math and maybe adding in extra practice?Or just lots of trial and error... I guess we will find out soon!

[jer2911mom]

You could try a light unit of CLE (Christian Light Education), which has constant review, or do some of RightStart A while you wait to go back to MM.

 

HTH,

Kathy

[Ellie]

 

There is more than mastery vs spiral in picking which curriculum works for a child.

 

 

Yes, there most certainly is. :-)

[dereksurfs]

Which one would you say is better for a child who isn't exactly a memory wizard?

 

We've been using MM 1 after finishing Singapore EM K a few months ago. We're taking MM slow, but nothing seems to be sticking. Would a spiral program be better for her?

 

 

I definately noticed a big difference between them which I think totally depends upon the child's natural abilities and learning bent.

 

We started all three dc with a mastery program (MUS). It worked great for ds11 who is naturally gifted at math. He sailed right through it, retaining all material. By contrast both dds who are more average math students had significant issues with it. They disliked the monotonous approach focusing on 'one' concept for so long. Then they were not retaining things after moving to the next section, similar to your dd. It was then that we found CLE after researching various spiral programs. Things went so much better once we switched and it just seemed like a more tailor made fit. Mastery was like trying to put a square peg into a round hole with them. Sure, we could have forced them through it. But why when they could learn better, more naturally via another method?

 

I highly recommend trying this for yourself as it can really vary a lot child to child, family to family. We involved them even at an early age in the demo'ing and selection process which helped them to 'own' their math program. That is the beauty of homeschooling. You can tailor the program to the child vs. a one size fits all which doesn't.

[UrbanSue]

Is Singapore considered a mastery program?

:confused1:

 

 

Singapore is mastery.

 

But in the first couple of years the concepts are so fundamental that it all seems kind of spiral to me. I haven't actually used a spiral program so maybe I don't know . . . but you just can't do any math at all without continually working with the concepts of adding and subtracting. I don't think it's the biggest question in the early grades.

[Ellie]

I definately noticed a big difference between them which I think totally depends upon the child's natural abilities and learning bent.

 

We started all three dc with a mastery program (MUS). It worked great for ds11 who is naturally gifted at math. He sailed right through it, retaining all material. By contrast both dds who are more average math students had significant issues with it. They disliked the monotonous approach focusing on 'one' concept for so long. Then they were not retaining things after moving to the next section, similar to your dd. It was then that we found CLE after researching various spiral programs. Things went so much better once we switched and it just seemed like a more tailor made fit. Mastery was like trying to put a square peg into a round hole with them. Sure, we could have forced them through it. But why when they could learn better, more naturally via another method?

 

I highly recommend trying this for yourself as it can really vary a lot child to child, family to family. We involved them even at an early age in the demo'ing and selection process which helped them to 'own' their math program. That is the beauty of homeschooling. You can tailor the program to the child vs. a one size fits all which doesn't.

 

See, for *my* dc, it would be the manipulatives that they hated, even before they became tired of staying on one topic too long. It is why choosing between process math and traditional math is as important as choosing between "spiral" and "mastery." In fact, process math vs traditional math would be my first consideration.

[Love Home]

R&S Math is mastery but has constant review for those dc who forget things after awhile. We are working on Mult/Div in Grade 3 but it constantly reviews add. and sub. It's a great program.