misty.warden Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 It sounds like my college boyfriend's frat rituals. He was so secretive about them, and with good reason. The chapter would lose its charter if authorities found out the nature of the hazing (and at one point after I graduated, it did). I get the point of hazing and initiation rituals, it's to make membership in an organization seem worthwhile. But that was college, and I was more tolerant of silliness then. Now that I'm an adult with real responsibilities I'd be a little more concerned that the adult I'm married to still felt the need to be in an organization like that. But if it just seemed like a fun outlet for him and he didn't neglect his family and work responsibilities, I think it'd be fine. The bolded is why "secret societies" of any kind rub me the wrong way. Doing illegal things to new members to "make it worthwhile" to belong?? I feel like an alien from another planet because I cannot see how that makes any sense, ever. Though she probably would, to be fair to her, there are people that go around to various Christian groups, claiming to have been 32nd degree and up Masons and they tell stories of Satan worship, human sacrifice, demons, etc. I'm not making an opinion one way or another. I have reservations about the Masons regardless, so it's neither here nor there ;) For all the different groups that have been alleged to include Satan worship and human sacrifice over the years, I think being human and wanting attention is the common denominator, not anything about the actual groups. Every time I hear "X group invokes demons!!" my Spock eyebrow just about shoots off in disgust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) EDITED Edited February 21, 2013 by Moderator Personal attack. Knock it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) EDITED Edited February 21, 2013 by ChocolateReignRemix Bickering. Behave yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 My husband isn't a mason or anything, but he keeps lots of secrets from me because he's in a huge secret society... The US Navy. I couldn't care less that he has to keep secrets from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Do Masons wear kilts? Edit: Wait. Don't answer that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Do Masons wear kilts? From the history channel specials I've seen, Why yes, they do! :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 You missed my edit. ;P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Does it bother you at all that he is required to keep the information secret but is violating that rule by telling you everything? That would bother me. It seems like a matter of integrity that if the groups rules are that you not tell you spouse, he would do it anyway. I would tell my DH that if he doesn't want to follow the group's rules, he shouldn't join. I'm not saying you DH lacks integrity - he probably hasn't thought about it this way, and probably thinks that telling his wife things shows trust and a different type of integrity - which I think is true. But unfortunately, the group doesn't operate that way, so maybe he doesn't really fit the group. No, not at all....if the oath of secrecy from your wife and about what you are doing there is wrong. And it is, scripturally, in my view. Let your yes be yes and your no be no; anything more than this comes from evil, says Jesus. Also "we must obey God rather than man." If the man feels he is violating his faith, he is right to tell his wife, as they are "one", about it. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I don't think hazing is a good idea. I think it's stupid and unnecessary. When I was younger, I remember hearing about some humiliating stuff happening under the guise of "hazing," and I'm not so sure that it's all in fun, or to make membership in the organization seem worthwhile. Often, it seems more like a group of people getting off on having control over others and being able to make them do whatever they tell them to do. There are plenty of ways to make membership in an organization seem desirable that don't involve stupid secret oaths or hazing rituals. (It's different when it's silly, harmless stuff, and everyone is just joking around and having fun with it -- including the pledges -- but that's not always the case.) Absolutely. Hazing is stupid, dangerous, and usually a violation of the law and sometimes the charter of the frat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm sure you'd probably say the same thing if you read about or watched a Wiccan/Pagan ritual. We use pentacles. Candles. Chanting. Knives, even! (And sometimes there are naked people... sssh.) Still not practicing the "black arts," though. What then? The dark gray arts? Kidding. A little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Isn't it odd that the "generational curse" she was told about didn't appear until her? I mean, if it is generational, shouldn't this have been happening before? Oh, did say she was the only one in her entire family line? I missed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 OMG! Look! Ryan Gosling wearing a kilt and eating a cupcake!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm sure you'd probably say the same thing if you read about or watched a Wiccan/Pagan ritual. We use pentacles. Candles. Chanting. Knives, even! (And sometimes there are naked people... sssh.) Still not practicing the "black arts," though. Mergath, can you explain to me how a Wiccan/Pagan ritual like you described is different from black arts? I don't get it. I'm sincerely trying to understand the difference. I will openly admit I know next to nothing about anything Wiccan or Pagan. Ok, before I hit 'post', I looked up "black arts" in wikipedia. It takes me to "black magic", which it defines as: Black magic has traditionally referred to the use of supernatural powers for evil and selfish purposes. I guess my ignorance lies in not knowing anything about Wiccan/Pagan rituals; what they're for, why you do them, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Okay let me see if I have this straight. men want to join an adult clubhouse with secret rituals and such that they mustn't tell anyone about? THis has now gotten everyone up in arms over who is right in which religion and whether they are cursed, or black arts, or white arts, or rainbow arts I have no clue. But honestly it sounds like a rather foolish arguement to have happen. Because I guarantee the men don't care, they are haivng their coffee, or beer or whatever, yapping away and planning some sort of service project. As usual it is the women in a tizzy about something that doesn't concern us. Whether or not a man joins or doesn't, or maintains the secrets from his wife or not is between that man and his wife. Whether or not someone believes they were cursed due to the actions of someone else in their family is their belief, who cares. Whether or not someone thinks that belief is valid is up to them, again who cares. As for who's religion supports fraternal organizations and which don't again that is between you and your beliefs. My father is a member of a fraternal organization, in fact he is rather well ranked in it, my brother and bil were in it previously before 1 moved away and 1 got busy with a new career. There is no concern over their meetings, they have coffee, talk about work and families and do a ton of community service. 1 event in particular my father is key organizer for and for that one my mom is a huge help, it is a huge fundraising success every year and if they want to have a silly handshake or ritual I say go for it. THey are supporting the community and giving back far more than most people who want to point fingers. Now I am going to go practice my lime green arts, and develop a new secret handshake for my club and post a no men allowed sign on the door. Oh one last thing, If my husband wanted to keep secrets from me, as long as they were not due to immoral, or illegal activity I don't care. My curiosity would be killing me, but in the end it's not my business. And I would certainly hope for some secrets in a marriage, because honestly there is some details to a person's past or current life that you don't need to know even as a wife, some mystery is a good thing in a marriage. It is why bathroom doors are meant to be shut by the user etc. lol Edited February 21, 2013 by Moderator Removed reference to deleted kerfluffle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Mergath, can you explain to me how a Wiccan/Pagan ritual like you described is different from black arts? I don't get it. I'm sincerely trying to understand the difference. I will openly admit I know next to nothing about anything Wiccan or Pagan. Ok, before I hit 'post', I looked up "black arts" in wikipedia. It takes me to "black magic", which it defines as: Black magic has traditionally referred to the use of supernatural powers for evil and selfish purposes. I guess my ignorance lies in not knowing anything about Wiccan/Pagan rituals; what they're for, why you do them, etc. That's a whole other thread in itself. I'll start an "ask the pagans" thread for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 That's a whole other thread in itself. I'll start an "ask the pagans" thread for you. Thank you, Rosie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Mergath, can you explain to me how a Wiccan/Pagan ritual like you described is different from black arts? I don't get it. I'm sincerely trying to understand the difference. I will openly admit I know next to nothing about anything Wiccan or Pagan. Ok, before I hit 'post', I looked up "black arts" in wikipedia. It takes me to "black magic", which it defines as: Black magic has traditionally referred to the use of supernatural powers for evil and selfish purposes. I guess my ignorance lies in not knowing anything about Wiccan/Pagan rituals; what they're for, why you do them, etc. I'm not Mergath. ;) But I'd like to throw out one answer; there are other ones that would also be accurate. The symbols - to a Pagan - don't MEAN the same things as they do to most Christians (or some other religions). A pentacle is used as a symbol, often of protection or of the elements (air, water, fire, earth). They have a rich history of use, and are not used in "black arts" but more accurately incorporated into the spirituality of a Pagan in a custom, personal way. Candles are used typically to focus energy, to symbolize bringing light to the sacred, as a ritual enhancer (similar to the function of candles in a Christian service). Chanting is a meditative function used throughout millenia as a "centering" mechanism of worship, of clearing one's mind of the mundane, of bringing the mind of the chanter (or listener) to the event. Knives are used ceremoniously to cut herbs, cleansing rituals, and brandishing symbolically. Naked because it's a level playing field, it's freeing, it's celebratory. Why? What for? Well, rituals often are performed for the same reasons Christians pray: distress, healing, celebration, honoring. Rituals vary - some honor the sacred, some are to specific Gods, some are in response to the change of seasons,some are to welcome a baby, family member, prepare a new home, ask for wisdom. There can be an element of worship involved, if the practitioners believe in a God/force. Most Pagan, and certainly Wiccans have a principle about no harm (and that includes coercion such as "love spells", etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Oh, did say she was the only one in her entire family line? I missed that. I believe that once she broke the chain and stepped away from the family Mason (or whichever club it was) activities/membership the curse was then enforced. If she had stayed and participated the curse would not have gone into effect. What would be interesting to know is if her brother, who also walked away, has had infertility or other major medical issues that could be blamed on the curse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 My friend talked me into joining a sorority in college and I was giggling through the whole initiation thing because I thought it was so silly and pointless. And we were "sworn to secrecy" about the ritual and handshake and I think there was even a secret phrase or something? Give me a break. This was my experience exactly - right down to the giggling. Let's see, secret knock, secret handshake, secret password. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PachiSusan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Guess I missed a good one. :lurk5: Anyway... My BIL joined the Masons and my SIL is upset at the silly secret rituals, but she doesn't push him. My DH and I have a very honest relationship but if the other says "I just can't tell you" we do have trust that it's for a reason and not detrimental to our marriage. My husband runs a recovery ministry and there are things he cannot talk about around me nor can I be around when he's talking to his guys. It's private and I won't intrude upon that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Many generations of my father's family were masons. In those days it was more common I suppose...now churches have so many more rules than they did then. I do find it insulting to see people being accused of practicing "dark arts." That is extremely rude and uncalled for. My grandfather was most certainly NOT a practitioner of the dark arts! I have no idea how someone could believe such a thing. We do not have fertility issues or any curses in the family, despite my family no longer participating in the masons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 What then? The dark gray arts? Kidding. A little. *sigh* Like I said before- and pay attention, because I'm only going to say this one more time- "different from Christianity" does NOT equal "Satan-worship." WE DON'T BELIEVE IN SATAN. Therefore, we can't be worshiping him, ie. practicing the "dark arts." I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate me making jokes about your religious beliefs being secretly evil, so don't do the same to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm not Mergath. ;) But I'd like to throw out one answer; there are other ones that would also be accurate. The symbols - to a Pagan - don't MEAN the same things as they do to most Christians (or some other religions). A pentacle is used as a symbol, often of protection or of the elements (air, water, fire, earth). They have a rich history of use, and are not used in "black arts" but more accurately incorporated into the spirituality of a Pagan in a custom, personal way. Candles are used typically to focus energy, to symbolize bringing light to the sacred, as a ritual enhancer (similar to the function of candles in a Christian service). Chanting is a meditative function used throughout millenia as a "centering" mechanism of worship, of clearing one's mind of the mundane, of bringing the mind of the chanter (or listener) to the event. Knives are used ceremoniously to cut herbs, cleansing rituals, and brandishing symbolically. Naked because it's a level playing field, it's freeing, it's celebratory. Why? What for? Well, rituals often are performed for the same reasons Christians pray: distress, healing, celebration, honoring. Rituals vary - some honor the sacred, some are to specific Gods, some are in response to the change of seasons,some are to welcome a baby, family member, prepare a new home, ask for wisdom. There can be an element of worship involved, if the practitioners believe in a God/force. Most Pagan, and certainly Wiccans have a principle about no harm (and that includes coercion such as "love spells", etc). Exactly. Thank you, Joanne. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 *sigh* Like I said before- and pay attention, because I'm only going to say this one more time- "different from Christianity" does NOT equal "Satan-worship." WE DON'T BELIEVE IN SATAN. Therefore, we can't be worshiping him, ie. practicing the "dark arts." I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate me making jokes about your religious beliefs being secretly evil, so don't do the same to others. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid there will be those that will always insist upon this. There are those that are taught that if you aren't worshipping Christ, then you are automatically worshipping Satan. Or if you have any other faith than Christianity, then you are worshipping Satan, but you just don't know you are because Satan is disguising himself. Judaism gets a free pass on this judgement with some people...some will believe they worship the same God, just not completely, and some believe that they worship a different God. It's okay, some Jews (maybe all) believe that believing Christ is God is idolatry.......and so the world goes round and round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm sorry, but I'm afraid there will be those that will always insist upon this. There are those that are taught that if you aren't worshipping Christ, then you are automatically worshipping Satan. Or if you have any other faith than Christianity, then you are worshipping Satan, but you just don't know you are because Satan is disguising himself. Judaism gets a free pass on this judgement with some people...some will believe they worship the same God, just not completely, and some believe that they worship a different God. It's okay, some Jews (maybe all) believe that believing Christ is God is idolatry.......and so the world goes round and round. Yeah, we know. But it's an ugly story, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Yeah, we know. But it's an ugly story, isn't it? Yes, but it was more of a toss your hands up in the air and sigh comment, not really trying to inform those that already are on the receiving end ;) It can be very ugly. Much is ignorance of another's belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.