Using Singapore Math with a dyscalculic student

[sweetpea3829]

Alright, here's the deal. DD7 has dyscalculia. We have been through a boatload of math curriculum and at this point, I'm fairly certain there is not any one curriculum that is going to be "it" for her. She can be taught the steps of solving an equation, or comparing numbers, etc., but the purpose of math is fundamentally lost on her. In other words, she cannot apply math concepts. I can give her a sheet of addition equations to work through, and after showing her how to work through the first one with manipulatives, she can correctly work through the rest. But change one factor (for example, having a missing part, instead of the whole being the missing number) and she's flummoxed. Today, even with a pictorial presentation AND manipulatives, she still managed to write several equations that made no logical sense. For example, 5+2=4. Or 7-5=12. Or 6-10=5. Why those equations are logically incorrect is lost on her, no matter how many times we've gone over it.

 

To complicate things, she is also ADHD (without the hyperactivity) and makes very frequent errors because of lack of attention. Counting? Yeah, she can have a group of five objects in front of her, but still come up with 7 or 8 or 3 while counting them.

 

On the flip side, DS6 is highly gifted in math. Multiplication? He was doing that on his own in real life situations last fall. He has understood fractions since he was 3 1/2. Singapore has been a good fit for him, and I intend to keep him in it.

 

I *was* planning on purchasing Right Start for DD. But at this point, like I said, I don't really think it's going to make a difference! She needs what I'm already doing...presentation of math in a multimodal manner with frequent review of all concepts previously taught.

 

So, I'm wondering if anybody has successfully used Singapore with a student with math LDs. If so, how did it work out? I have no doubt that she can learn the material, eventually. But I am concerned that she will likely never be able to do mental math and that's a pretty big component of Singapore.

 

I'm just reluctant to purchase yet another math curriculum, kwim? It would be a lot easier on our budget if we could keep both big kids on the same curriculum.

[wapiti]

she can have a group of five objects in front of her, but still come up with 7 or 8 or 3 while counting them

 

 

Just a thought, but have developmental vision issues been ruled out already?

 

I don't have curriculum advice. It sounds like you are ready to teach and tweak as necessary with whatever curriculum you have, so I suppose it can't hurt to try SM, since you will use it with your ds anyway. I'd be tempted to go with c-rods and Rosie's videos. Good luck!!

[sweetpea3829]

Yep, we've done developmental vision with a developmental optometrist, she's had a full range of neuropsychological evaluations, etc. She's had OT assessments, sensory assessments, etc. She just isn't paying attention when she counts.

 

Honestly, the one thing that I really think would make a big difference for her in math would be to have an interactive white board. Having her physically up and manipulating numbers from one side to another would hold her attention and I think it would help concepts to stick better. Alas, such an item is a bit out of our range at this point.

[Clear Creek]

What curriculum have you tried with her so far? My only experience with SM has been 1A/B, and no, I would not use it with a child like you describe. I say this because her twin resides in my house. :D What works for my daughter is MUS. The blocks give her a visual and kinesthetic representation of number values and prevent her from needing to count in order to add/subtract (she had trouble counting accurately as well). Before we started with MUS this past fall, like your daughter she could follow a procedure to solve a problem but had no idea conceptually what she was doing. Somehow Mr. Demme's explanations have been able to teach her the concepts that I could not. If you have not tried it, I highly recommend it. For this type of learner it works exceptionally well.

[celticadea]

I apologize if this is completely off base, but my brother is dyscalculic and when he was in school they recommended he use graph paper all the time. I believe the point was to help him get things lined up so there was a possibility of him doing the math correctly. Unfortunately, this wasn't recommended until 4th grade and by then he refused to be different from the other kids so I don't know if it would work. Maybe something to try with her though?

[sweetpea3829]

What curriculum have you tried with her so far? My only experience with SM has been 1A/B, and no, I would not use it with a child like you describe. I say this because her twin resides in my house. :D What works for my daughter is MUS. The blocks give her a visual and kinesthetic representation of number values and prevent her from needing to count in order to add/subtract (she had trouble counting accurately as well). Before we started with MUS this past fall, like your daughter she could follow a procedure to solve a problem but had no idea conceptually what she was doing. Somehow Mr. Demme's explanations have been able to teach her the concepts that I could not. If you have not tried it, I highly recommend it. For this type of learner it works exceptionally well.

 

Oh gosh, we've been through Singapore, Horizons (we got two pages into that before I realied it would be a flop for her), JUMP, MEP.

 

I have had my eye on MUS for awhile now, but I have found that manipulatives don't actually help to alleviate DDs confusion. If anything, she's MORE confused by the manipulatives because she can't remember HOW to use them. When I give her an example of how to use the manipulatives, she can do so for the rest of the problems, as long as they are exactly like the one I demonstrated. But if you throw a different equation into the mix, forget it...lol.

 

So for example, she had a sheet today that had addition equations. I showed her how to take the manipulatives and represent them on her divided plate, using cubes. She did fine, as long as she used the manipulatives. At one point, apparently, she decided to forego the manipulatives and then I had answers like 6+6=12 (correct) followed by 7+7=12 (incorrect). She can't understand WHY 7+7 does not equal 12, because afterall, 6+6 does and that's almost the same thing! In her mind, 6+6 is the same as 7+7 because they're both doubles. See?

 

So we worked through that. And she was fine, as long as she was using the manipulative. Then, they threw in one of these

 

___ + 5 = 12. And the answer I got was 17, of course! LOL. We've been over this a gazillion times...the number after the equal sign is the whole...you have to add the parts to get the whole. If you have the whole and not a part, then you have to subtract the part you have to find the missing part. Without demonstrating how to solve this specific style of equation, she can't do it. But again, once you demonstrate it, she can do it with manipulatives. Unless you then put in another 6+4=10 type equation. She can't go back and forth.

 

The reason I have been eyeing Right Start is because I think the Abacus will actually be easier for her to understand and use than the MUS manips will be. But I'm really not sure. And honestly, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference either way, she's still going to have a huge struggle with being able to switch between different operations.

 

The other big issue I have found with curriculum is that there isn't a curriculum out there that I have found that takes into consideration that a child may take 6 months to master a simple concept such as comparing two numbers within 20 (oh gosh ,we worked on that from last spring through last fall).

 

So for example, JUMP math is a nice little program that is very incremental, which she needs. But there's nowhere NEAR enough practice on a topic. They introduce addition on one page and then after two or three practice pages, they're on to subtraction.

 

I'd just hate to invest in EITHER Right Start or MUS and find out that it's really not going to make a difference for her. She might *get* the teaching method. But she doesn't seem to actually retain any of it.

 

As for graph paper, she's not even there yet, but that was also suggested to us, and we will do that when she's ready.

 

And Clear Creek, if your DD is like mine, I'm sure you can relate to the frustration of thinking your child has mastered something *finally* and then all of a sudden, she looks at you and says, "But I don't know what number comes after 7!" GAAAAAAAH!!!!!

[Clear Creek]

 

___ + 5 = 12. And the answer I got was 17, of course! LOL. We've been over this a gazillion times...the number after the equal sign is the whole...you have to add the parts to get the whole. If you have the whole and not a part, then you have to subtract the part you have to find the missing part. Without demonstrating how to solve this specific style of equation, she can't do it. But again, once you demonstrate it, she can do it with manipulatives. Unless you then put in another 6+4=10 type equation. She can't go back and forth.

 

 

Let me give you an example of how MUS explains things differently, in a way that made sense to my daughter. Regarding the bolded above, Mr. Demme explained that the equal sign means "same as." Therefore they put the blocks representing the same as on the bottom, and put the part they know on the top and see which block needs to go next to it to so that it is the "same as" the bottom (therefore making a nice little equal sign). A completely different explanation than I had originally given her (one very similar to the one that you gave), and somehow one that made sense to my daughter. They spend all of Alpha on this concept.

 

 

 

The other big issue I have found with curriculum is that there isn't a curriculum out there that I have found that takes into consideration that a child may take 6 months to master a simple concept such as comparing two numbers within 20 (oh gosh ,we worked on that from last spring through last fall).

 

 

MUS has a free worksheet generator on their website so that you can spend as much time on a topic as you need in order to master it. In the book there are three lessons on the topic, three lessons of review, an activity, and a chapter test for every lesson. I have only had to resort to the worksheet generator a few times, but I have been glad it is there. One of the few criticisms of MUS is that it spends too much time on a topic!

 

I am not trying to talk you into MUS if it is something that you aren't interested in. Speaking from experience, though, it sounds like it might work for your daughter. I have never used Right Start, though, so I can't make a comparison there.

[Crimson Wife]

Maybe pair JUMP Math with Math Mammoth "blue"? JUMP Math gets rave reviews for struggling students and MM is also fairly incremental and has a TON of practice problems. Even if she never grasps the mental math aspect of MM, it's still a solid program. You can download the entire grades 1-3 MM "blue" bundle for $38 at CurrClick.

 

I love Singapore but it is not what I would use with a struggling student.

[NotSoObvious]

I have a dd with ADHD and dyscalcula (and we've done vision therapy, OT, etc).

 

I did not choose Singapore because she needs a very repetitive program. CLE has been a good fit (but I supplement). She really needed the daily drill to cement her facts.

We toyed with MUS. I had her watch the introductory DVD about place value and it confused the heck out of her. She is very literal so the whole houses and neighbors thing (i forget now) threw her for a loop.

 

I really, really wanted Singapore to work. I've had her take the placement test twice and almost bought it. Then I borrowed a book from a friend and in one sitting I knew it wasn't what she needed.

 

The reason I like CLE and, as much as it pains me (because I hated teaching it in the classroom), Saxon, for kids like this is that they can learn something and do it in the moment, but that doesn't mean they've solidified any skill. The pencil to paper process is sooooooo much harder for them than it is for other kids. They need the repetition so that the processes become solidified.

I still supplement a lot so that she is exposed to the concepts from lots of different angles. But the core of her math is CLE because, well, it works. 3 years of school with Math Their Way (which I loved) and Real Math and this child still couldn't tell me 2+3. One year with CLE and she knew all her add and sub facts.

 

I hope that helps somewhat.

[Heathermomster]

My 13 yo DS has a maths disorder. Look at books by Robit Bird and the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa to get feel for what you are dealing with. Fundamentally, these kiddos have weak numbers sense and struggle with subitizing, coupled with poor working memory and/or slow processing speed. Kathy Richardson has written Dyslexia Action plans, which is commonly recommended.

 

Your child should instantly know the correct number of dots on a die simply by the pattern. Afterwards, they should recognize numbers up to at least 5, with randomly ordered dot cards.

 

As far as Singapore goes, I picked up a Singapore style Grade 2 Mental Math book to help DS with mental math. The book was basic and benefited DS tremendously. We have always focused on number bonds and decomposing numbers. As a new concept comes along, we start with the manipulative, draw the concept out as a picture, and lastly solve the typical math equation. DS struggled with the number 11, so he pronounced the word 11 as one-ten-one for awhile. The Asian style math teaching concepts have been helpful and are good to use.

 

I suggest you read the books and authors that I mentioned, keep math light while you practice number sense activities, and consider popping over to the Learning Challenges board for specific curriculum suggestions. Outside of MUS, I can only think of the programs Semple and Developmental Math but have never used either personally.

 

I don't know if you've pursued this yet; however, your child may benefit from Interactive Metronome therapy. To do that, you would need to seek an evaluation with an OT. Insurance actually covered my son's IM therapy.

[sweetpea3829]

Many thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

 

Heather, my DD absolutely has a significant weakness with number sense. She understands that a given number has a value, and can tell you what that value is, and can represent it with manipulatives.

 

She cannot, however, understand how numbers relate to one another. She just doesn't "get it". After months and months of trying to teach her how to compare numbers within 20, representing the concept in multiple different ways, finally I printed large numbers, one per page, and took her to our staircase. I put a number on each step, from 1-10. I had her stand on a number, locate another number and tell me if it was higher or lower than she was. Then I showed her how, on the graph I had created (which was a visual representation of each of the numbers), a number that was "more" was higher than a number that was less, just like when she was on the stairs. A number that was higher than the step she was on, was "more". That's when the concept really clicked. She can now "usually" compare numbers pretty reliably...on a good day, she can even compare numbers up to 100. On a bad day? She can't tell you if 85 is more than 4.

 

It's funny you mention the struggles your son had with 11...we also had similar struggles, and from time to time it does crop up again. But for G, it's 12 and 21. We also borrowed the phrase "onety-one, onety-two, onety-three" etc to help her recognize that it was important that the 1 came first. As far as I know, numbers and letters do not switch on her, like many dyslexics experience. But she does have a hard time remembering that 12 is different from 21.

 

As for being able to recognize numbers based on the pattern? She cannot. She can recognize a group of numbers up to maybe 3, but 4 or more, and she has to physically count the objects. She still doesn't really "get" that her hand has five fingers.

 

Anyways, I'm still up in the air with curriculum for her. Maybe MUS, maybe Right Start, maybe TOUCH. I don't know. Another program that was recommended to me was Mastery Mathematics.

 

And I will look into Interactive Metronome...I've heard of it through the HSDyslexickids Yahoo group as well as Learningabledkids.

[Terabith]

I've ruled out Touch Math because ultimately it relies on a lot of counting, and my dd is not all that reliable on counting. The abacus is a great manipulative, but I'm not sure that RS as a program is the best curriculum.

[sweetpea3829]

I was diagnosed with both dyscalculia and giftnedness in high school, and have since come to understand that these issues often appear together. I never moved passed basic elementary math and could not understand concepts despite extensive remedial teaching. By the time I reached high school, I was very confident that I simply could not do math, and refused to participate in math lessons. I'd get out my lit lesson and write essays instead.

 

I am not sure if I can offer you any constructive advice, but I am going to share my thoughts, because we are now using SM in our homeschool with kids who are definitely not math-challenged. We are starting on 2B, and that is already material that was completely alien to me. Well, with the HIG, I'll say that SM is working for ME, as an adult who got the dyscalculia label, to the point that I am questioning whether I actually have dyscalculia at all. The Singapore approach makes sense to me, and I am now wondering if I was "simply" taught math in an appalling way and then developed a math phobia.

 

If your kid truly has dyscalculia, I'd:

 

• Stick with SM, because it is a good program that I think can work reasonably well with students who have dyscalculia due to the visual nature. Use plenty of manipulatives, like c-rods.

• Not worry about grade levels. Kids with dyscalculia will never do well with math. For me, learning to actually understand early elemetary math in my mid-thirties is progress. If your kid is progressing with 1a at age 7 or 8, that is great stuff! If you have moved ahead, and your kid doesn't understand, do not feel weird about moving back.

• If your kid can theoretically understand a math concept but can't do mental arithmetic, allow her to use a calculator. Math goals will be different for kids with dyscalculia, I think that a basic understanding of math to the point that she can manage a grocery budget and manage her taxes later in life is a great goal.

• Make sure that you look at graduating high school with dyscalculia now. In my case, I needed to pass a math exam to get a high school diploma (I think this is also required in the US). I actually had to move to another country where math was not required to graduate, in order to get a diploma. Your kid will have more options if you start looking into solutions now.

• If math makes your kid want to vomit, run and scream, or gives her palpitations, step back and do as little math as possible. It's like forcing a wheelchair user to walk — impossible but torturous.

 

 

 

Good stuff, thanks. And you answerd a question I've held in my own heart secretly, but have not wanted to express because, well, she's only 7! That is, "How in the world will she be able to homeschool her own children when she's an adult?"

 

My husband is dyslexic and struggles immensely with spelling. He simply cannot spell, and much of it is because he can't "hear" the phonemes of oral language. He's what I call an "auditory" dyslexic. He also cannot retrieve in his memory a picture of what a word should look like.

 

When he was formally diagnosed in his mid-30's, after years and years of thinking he was "dumb", we also learned that he likely has dyscalculia, but it was not formally diagnosed. For him, he cannot hold numbers in his head and manipulate them. So when he's working a multi-step equation, he gets all confused. Using graph paper and a calculator and graph paper is helpful for him, as it helps him to organize the information.

 

At this point, to help DD prepare for high school math, we're spending a LOT of time focusing on number sense and just nailing those basics down. I have an IESP with the school dept to document her LD so we have a paper trail and a history. When she is of age for standardized testing, we will use accommodations so there is a history of that as well. I hear that having an established history of the LD and the need for accoms is important.

 

When I sat with DDs neuropsych to go over his findings, he told me flat out that it was his opinion that eventually DD could accomplish math at a high enough level that she would be able to go to college. I nearly cried when he said it, because I had pretty much written that off as a possibility for her. I know that sounds terrible, but please remember, this was while we were in the middle of our months long journey to learn a simple concept of comparing numbers within 20. I wasn't sure she'd EVER get it, kwim?

 

I do like that Singapore has a very visual approach to mathematics...but my biggest concern with it is it's focus on mental math. She simply cannot handle mental math (though today she surprised me when she was able to remember that a number subtracted from the same number will always equal zero, and that when you add zero to any given number, the answer will remain the same as the given number).

 

I'm not sure what I'll do just yet...but I was curious if anybody else had stuck with Singapore for a student with math LD. It would be nice if I could keep both of my Bigs on the same curriculum, but I'd hate to move DS, as he's really thriving with Singapore, and the Singapore approach is right up his alley.

[Heathermomster]

 

I do like that Singapore has a very visual approach to mathematics...but my biggest concern with it is it's focus on mental math. She simply cannot handle mental math (though today she surprised me when she was able to remember that a number subtracted from the same number will always equal zero, and that when you add zero to any given number, the answer will remain the same as the given number).

 

I'm not sure what I'll do just yet...but I was curious if anybody else had stuck with Singapore for a student with math LD. It would be nice if I could keep both of my Bigs on the same curriculum, but I'd hate to move DS, as he's really thriving with Singapore, and the Singapore approach is right up his alley.

 

About the mental math, there are working memory exercises that supposedly help to increase digit spans and can be done with IM. There are also exercises called n-back that may help. N-back exercises are free and on-line.

[larissaheart]

Hi, late to this topic and new to the forum in general but I just wanted to say that I'm an adult with dycalculia (and ADHD) and so if you wanted any insights into what worked for me in math throughout school (and beyond), I'd be happy to share. It sounds weird but I almost feel like it's my duty to help other people like me because I had such a hard time.

 

Obviously I can't speak to specific curricula but I can definitely let you know which kinds of curricula work and which ones don't.

[TheReader]

seeing this late here, also, but my son sounds very similar (throw in he also has dyslexia....) and I just want to encourage you that our EduPsych suggested Singapore as what I should use with him. So, to answer that question, I think yes, you can stick with it and be totally fine. Where Singapore switches to mental math, just add in explanation as needed.

 

A few tips if that's okay --

 

--our EduPsych noted that my son has a great deal of difficulty switching from horizontally laid out problems to vertical, or the blank being after or before the equal sign, etc. She suggested for that, in any given day, do only one style problem. So, if part of the problem for you dd is switching from one to the other, maybe on one day you do all one style, on another day, do all the other style, etc. If she can't yet do the type where she has to find the missing addend, give her time and come back to it. Either rewrite those to be straight addition or straight subtraction, or just skip them.

 

--one thing that helped my son get the concept of more/less than, and since you mentioned if she could move the numbers it might click, is a simple bead abacus. Not a full-on abacus, but one that is just 10 rows of 10 beads. I have been using that with him for adding and subtracting, and it helps a lot. I physically move the beads, and he's able to see the difference between adding/more than and subtracting/less than. You could have your dd move the beads over herself and count it out if that helps. We have (and he uses and loves) all manner of math manipulatives -- C-Rods, counting bears, counting discs, those base 10 rods where the rods are segmented -- nothing got through to him the way the abacus did, at least not with subtraction. Just a thought.

 

And, yes, a calculator is not a cheat in a case like this. It was suggested to us to get one that shows the full problem, so the child sees how the problem would be set up; so, we have that, and we use it when we need to.

 

Best of luck to you; it can be a challenge, for sure.

[kristi26]

I apologize if this is completely off base, but my brother is dyscalculic and when he was in school they recommended he use graph paper all the time. I believe the point was to help him get things lined up so there was a possibility of him doing the math correctly. Unfortunately, this wasn't recommended until 4th grade and by then he refused to be different from the other kids so I don't know if it would work. Maybe something to try with her though?

 

The above is an absolutely great suggestion. My oldest DS is dyscalculic too but he is 13. In our experience, Singapore was actually the worst thing for him. He has tried several different curricula (Prentice Hall, Singapore, Life of Fred, Math-u-See) and the one that is finally working for him is Math-U-See with graph paper (they have a bigger graph paper available to print on their site) and some review from LOF. We were stuck on fractions for EVER before MUS. He finally gets it and we'll be moving on to decimals soon.

[Heathermomster]

Hi, late to this topic and new to the forum in general but I just wanted to say that I'm an adult with dycalculia (and ADHD) and so if you wanted any insights into what worked for me in math throughout school (and beyond), I'd be happy to share. It sounds weird but I almost feel like it's my duty to help other people like me because I had such a hard time.

 

Obviously I can't speak to specific curricula but I can definitely let you know which kinds of curricula work and which ones don't.

 

 

Please, tell us all that you can. What kinds of curricula work?

[larissaheart]

Please, tell us all that you can. What kinds of curricula work?

 

 

The ideal is something in workbook format without any bells and whistles. That is to say, I've had math textbooks that have all these extra "game" components and New! Fun! Ways! of learning and, if you're dycalculic, math is already enough to wrap your head around without adding extras in. In seventh grade, we had these textbooks with cartoon characters talking to us and introducing concepts and random squares with extra information and I...learned nothing. It also, especially, as a kid, feels torturous to do math for long periods of time when it's so much of a struggle, so, workbooks are great because if you can section it or say, "Do X pages and you're done for the day." It's important to have an end goal.

 

The best format for a dyscalculic person are actually workbooks that are geared toward adults with low-level numeracy. The reason for that is because they explain just what you need to know in very simple language. I'm having trouble finding what I mean on Amazon.com but this book on Amazon.co.uk: http://amzn.to/X21DfP is a great example. I actually have that book (bought it when I lived in London) and it takes you right through the basics from the very beginning. There's no preview, which is a shame, but it's a very simple workbook with large text and room to write.

 

What a lot of dycalculic children do is "fake it" and compensate so you'll find they actually have gaps in their knowledge along the way and once you get to the stage where they're doing order of operations and equations, they start drowning because they can't fake it at that level anymore. [That's the reason I wasn't diagnosed with dyscalculia until I was fifteen ;-)] The only real solution is to go back to the beginning and iron out the basics.

 

What baffles me is a lot of dyscalculic resources encourage game-play and puzzles and that's great as a supplement but, honestly, while it may help in terms of getting a kid interested, it really won't help them understand the concepts.

 

All in all, my recommendations would be:

 

1. Keep the math curricula simple and workbook-oriented

2. Because it's simple (and simple often means boring), keep math lessons as short as possible.

3. Go back to the beginning if you suspect any gaps. It sounds extreme but I really wish someone had done this with me, way back when.

4. Respect alternative solutions. That is to say, if someone with dyscalculia figures out a way to solve a problem and it's not "standard", go with it. The same goes for showing work; it can be very difficult for us to unravel how we came to a conclusion after we've come to it, we're usually just pleased/surprised that we've come to it.

 

I hope this helps! If you have any specific questions about my perception of how appropriate a specific math curriculum would be for a dyscalculic student, I'm happy to investigate.

[larissaheart]

Also, want to add, because the above is more for older kids, than for younger kids, I would actually do non-number approaches to math for a while.

 

Patterns, for example. If you can do colors instead of numbers, it's a different way of introducing the concepts. So, green green red red green ...what's the next color in the pattern? It's good for confidence and good for groundwork. Ditto with color mixing. It doesn't seem like it's math related, but it subtly reinforces the concepts. As much as you can introduce logical sequences, without it being number related, the better. Take a venn diagram, for instance. You can easily use a venn diagram in other parts of your homeschool curriculum, like the book your child is reading. Characters who make bad decisions on one side, characters who make good decisions on the other side, both in the middle. Etc.

 

Also, focus as much as you can now (if you haven't yet) on the two major real-life applications of math: money and time. Start teaching it now. Believe me. I was lucky; money I picked up right away (in first grade) but to this day I struggle with an analog clock.

 

Another good way to accidentally learn math concepts is through music theory. Alfred's (I think) does a workbook on introductory music theory, which, coupled with piano lessons, will give anyone a firm basis in math that they weren't expecting.

 

Finally, I took the time to read some of the other responses and I have to disagree with Dialectica; being dyscalculic doesn't mean you'll never be good at math. Once I found the right approach, I ended up really enjoying math and took it until my senior year of high school where I got a 5 out of 7 on my final exam [basically a B]. It is possible to excel, much the same way I have dyslexic friends who were English majors in college.

[dancingmama]

My son doesn't have dyscalcula but does have LD issues so take this with a grain of salt. We use Primary Mathematics/Singapore Math with him. The HIG has helped a lot. If you use SM I'd highly recommend using not just the HIG/WB/TB but also the Extra Practice and the Visual Practice book. Take it slow. Then go online and get more practice sheets if she still needs more practice. We have used the Kumon workbooks, MUS and MM worksheets and various others depending on what I find. I also recommend using Khan Academy if you explain something and just don't get it. It works for my son but YMMV. He also likes to do the problems on the computer on Khan. Not sure how your LO would like that. I am borrowing MUS from a friend this week so I'll let you know what I think of that as well if you like.

[Cynful]

The ideal is something in workbook format without any bells and whistles. That is to say, I've had math textbooks that have all these extra "game" components and New! Fun! Ways! of learning and, if you're dycalculic, math is already enough to wrap your head around without adding extras in. In seventh grade, we had these textbooks with cartoon characters talking to us and introducing concepts and random squares with extra information and I...learned nothing. It also, especially, as a kid, feels torturous to do math for long periods of time when it's so much of a struggle, so, workbooks are great because if you can section it or say, "Do X pages and you're done for the day." It's important to have an end goal.

 

The best format for a dyscalculic person are actually workbooks that are geared toward adults with low-level numeracy. The reason for that is because they explain just what you need to know in very simple language. I'm having trouble finding what I mean on Amazon.com but this book on Amazon.co.uk: http://amzn.to/X21DfP is a great example. I actually have that book (bought it when I lived in London) and it takes you right through the basics from the very beginning. There's no preview, which is a shame, but it's a very simple workbook with large text and room to write.

 

What a lot of dycalculic children do is "fake it" and compensate so you'll find they actually have gaps in their knowledge along the way and once you get to the stage where they're doing order of operations and equations, they start drowning because they can't fake it at that level anymore. [That's the reason I wasn't diagnosed with dyscalculia until I was fifteen ;-)] The only real solution is to go back to the beginning and iron out the basics.

 

What baffles me is a lot of dyscalculic resources encourage game-play and puzzles and that's great as a supplement but, honestly, while it may help in terms of getting a kid interested, it really won't help them understand the concepts.

 

All in all, my recommendations would be:

 

1. Keep the math curricula simple and workbook-oriented

2. Because it's simple (and simple often means boring), keep math lessons as short as possible.

3. Go back to the beginning if you suspect any gaps. It sounds extreme but I really wish someone had done this with me, way back when.

4. Respect alternative solutions. That is to say, if someone with dyscalculia figures out a way to solve a problem and it's not "standard", go with it. The same goes for showing work; it can be very difficult for us to unravel how we came to a conclusion after we've come to it, we're usually just pleased/surprised that we've come to it.

 

I hope this helps! If you have any specific questions about my perception of how appropriate a specific math curriculum would be for a dyscalculic student, I'm happy to investigate.

 

So, just curious, in relation to this thread, what are your views on Singapore Math for dyscalculia? Would you recommend mastery or spiral programs? What about some of the other popular ones - Math-U-See, Rod & Staff, CLE, Developmental Math?

 

Thank you,

[sweetpea3829]

Lots of good info and discussion here, and I'm thankful for it.

 

I made the decision to try out MUS and am expecting it to arrive by later this week or early next week. I'm still quite torn between the different approaches, but given MUS track record with LD kids, I think it's worth a shot.

 

I'm going to answer a bunch of people in one post, but don't know how to multiquote and don't have time so...lol.

 

Thereader: that's good to know that your Neuropsych recommended Singapore. I'm surprised because most of them haven't a clue about any of the homeschooling curriculums. Our Neuropsych recommended Captain's Log, but more for thinking skills, if I remember correctly.

 

DD is not at a place yet where graph paper would make a difference. She's still learning the very basics of calculating and when to calculate and how. Once she's a bit older, I will definitely bring out the graph paper, and calculator for that matter.

 

Larissa, many many thanks for chiming in here. For those of us who do not have maths disorders, it can be EXTREMELY difficult to understand why our child cannot grasp these basic math concepts. I spent a long time very confused and thinking my daughter might just be not trying hard enough. I regret that we had that period during our homeschool journey, as I'm sure it did nothing for her self-esteem. But when your then 6 yr old has been able to count to 20 for some time, but then suddenly can't, or can't tell you what number comes before or after 13...I really wanted to pull my hair out.

 

Being able to talk with an adult about their experience with a maths disorder, and how math works for you, it's so very helpful. I think I mentioned above that my husband likely has a maths disorder as well, but he really does not like talking about it. I'll often ask him a question, just to see if I can glean some insight into how G is thinking. If I can understand HOW she's thinking and where the misfire is, than I can better teach the issue.

 

Larissa, what do you think of Mastery Mathematics? It was recommended to me from the special needs coordinator of our state's christian homeschool group (PICCLEAH). I gave it some serious consideration, and may still nab it as a supplement, depending on how G does with MUS.

 

In regards to the discussion about overcoming these LDs, or learning to live with them in a way that is best for each individual...I think a HUGE part of the final outcome will relate to the way in which those LDs are addressed during these formative years and in high school. Dialectica, you clearly had a hard time, and so did my husband. And it shows. I'm fairly confident that my husband could vastly improve his spelling abilities if he were to work on it. And he proved that he could improve greatly in his math abilities when working with a competent tutor, while studying for his GED. He did not end up testing for his GED, he ended up obtaining an actual high school diploma through the National External Diploma Program, but I think he may have been able to pass the GED, had he continued the tutoring.

 

But the fact is, DH does NOT feel good about himself when he works on math, or spelling, or really even reading. And after spending enough years of his life feeling like he was dumb, he simply doesn't even want to go there anymore. It took a lot of years of gentle coaxing to get him to even go through the neuropsych testing so we could have him labeled with a LD, so he could have accomodations for the GED testing, which was necessary for him to be able to get a better job.

 

All of that aside, though, DH was doing quite well for himself. He stayed away from anything that required him to write much, and he learned math well enough to be quite good at building things, drafting, etc. Once he DID get his diploma, the doors opened for him to take a much better position in the same field he was already working in, for a better company. (It's dumb...he had 13+ years of experience which is rare in his specific field and these larger companies wouldn't even look at him until he had a GED or diploma...talk about discrimination).

 

So yes, there are people who have LD that can be quite talented even in the fields in which their LD resides. But it all depends on the approach taken with them, what their schooling looked like, etc.

[sweetpea3829]

What a lot of dycalculic children do is "fake it" and compensate so you'll find they actually have gaps in their knowledge along the way and once you get to the stage where they're doing order of operations and equations, they start drowning because they can't fake it at that level anymore. [That's the reason I wasn't diagnosed with dyscalculia until I was fifteen ;-)] The only real solution is to go back to the beginning and iron out the basics.

 

 

And this is why I am so so thankful that we have the opportunity to homeschool DD. Because right now, I think she'd probably fly under the radar in public school, and not be recognized as dyscalculic until she was much older. But I knew she wasn't getting the concepts, and have known since she was very young that she would possibly be LD. At 3, I started the process of seeking help from the school dept for assessments and whatnot. Our first school district was VERY beligerent. Especially after I told them we had planned on homeschooling her. Their attitude was, "Well what do you want US to do?" One of them even said that during a meeting. "I don't understand why you're getting US involved when you intend on homeschooling her." This was AFTER I had explained several times why I was seeking the school depts assistance.

 

In the middle of it all, we relocated out of state and lost a year, but we were finally able to have the assessments done this past fall and an IESP is in place to document the LD, accomodate her for standardized testing, and I now have access to the public school's math specialist for consultation when necessary.

 

But anyways, yes, I think a lot of kids in public school end up following the same path you did...just getting by until they get to a point where they can't really fake it anymore. And that's where the real problems come in.

[larissaheart]

So, just curious, in relation to this thread, what are your views on Singapore Math for dyscalculia? Would you recommend mastery or spiral programs? What about some of the other popular ones - Math-U-See, Rod & Staff, CLE, Developmental Math?

 

Thank you,

 

Mastery, over spiral, without a doubt. But it has to have its own dyscalculic twist on mastery. Which is to say, going through a mastery program and then refreshing. As some parents have mentioned, we need to learn things over and over again but the issue with spiral programs is they don't really wait until we're ready to move on. You basically need to spiral your mastery programs.

 

I love the idea of Singapore in general but I will say that I opened a random sample page just now and immediately became frazzled. I know myself well enough to talk myself down from the ledge and say, "Okay, that part's superfluous, just pay attention to the question, Larissa" and if you can do that with your kids, then Singapore is great.

 

To give you an idea of what I mean (an insight into the brain of someone with dyscalculia haha) I opened the multiplication sample page from their third grade (3A, I think) workbook and the problem was "5 children shared the cost of a present equally. Each of them paid $6. What was the cost of the present?" Now, in an ideal workbook for someone with dyscalculia, the next section would have been blank OR just said 6 x 5 = . But in this workbook, they presented a row of five interconnected pink colored squares or "units" which they label as being $6 and then repeat those same squares as being the solution to 6 x 5. Mayday!

 

The problem is that I immediately become confused. Do they want me to repeat what they said the pink colored squares were ($6) or do they want me to answer 6 x 5 or do they want me to tell them what the total of the present was (because now I've lost sight that those last two are the same thing). See, as an adult, I can shake myself off and say, just tell them how much the present was (AKA 6 x 5) and ignore those pink boxes but, as a kid, I know I would have become fixated on those pink boxes and started freaking out inside.

 

So, while the layout and structure of Singapore is great, I would recommend being there with your child so you can be that voice of reason saying, "Forget about those pink boxes, just answer the first question" and please don't make the mistake of trying to explain the purpose of the pink boxes (or any random, seemingly helpful additions children's textbooks like to add). Because, as an adult, I do see, in theory, why those pink boxes are there: to visually depict multiplication. Obviously. But, in practice, my brain goes a little haywire with the extra information they've put down. I don't know if that makes sense but the adage of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is really applicable here.

 

Math-U-See is another I like with a few caveats...this one also depends on you as a parent and your future plans to homeschool. Because if you ever intend to send your child back to mainstream schooling, you may find that the schools are really intolerant of whatever visual methods your child uses to solve problems. I have vivid memories of being in tears in my third grade classroom because the substitute teacher told me I was no longer allowed to use tally-marks to solve the problems on my worksheet. Well-meaning adults will always try and convince children that there's an "easier" or "faster" way. The easiest way for a dyscalculic child to do math is the way that works for them and solves the problem correctly. If that means standing on their head and eating a banana, I truly believe you should let them. So, basically, if you are going to let them use those visual methods they'll pick up from the program forever and you're not intending to try and convince them of an "easier" way down the line and you don't intend to send them (back) to mainstream school, then I think Math-U-See is awesome. I really, really do. It's just whether you can see yourself being okay with them using those methods always. Listening to the founder talk, he is still catering to the average person and not necessarily one with a learning disorder. He's pretty pejorative about needing to know your multiplication facts by rote and "without looking up to the sky or counting on your fingers" and my feeling really is, if you can get the answer, it doesn't matter what little extra tics or crutches you develop along the way. Especially if you have an LD.

 

I couldn't find any samples of the Rod & Staff math students workbook, only the teacher's textbook, which is a different kettle of fish. I will say that while the simplicity is appealing, its emphasis on speed (speed drills and flashcards) is not generally a good idea for someone with an LD. CLE also places an emphasis on flash cards.

 

Developmental Math seems wonderful, and in theory covers everything I would say is ideal in a math program, but the website is down right now so I couldn't view any samples. On the surface, it looks like the perfect program for someone with an LD.

 

Two programs you didn't mention that I'd also recommend would be Math Mammoth (as long as you don't pay attention to grade levels, and focus instead on skills) and Ray's Arithmetic as a supplement, mainly.

 

So, in short, I'd recommend (with some cautioning) Singapore, Math-U-See and (100%) Developmental Math and would not recommend Rod & Staff or CLE. I'd also look into Math Mammoth and, as a supplement, Ray's Arithmetic.

 

Hope that helps!

[larissaheart]

 

Larissa, many many thanks for chiming in here. For those of us who do not have maths disorders, it can be EXTREMELY difficult to understand why our child cannot grasp these basic math concepts. I spent a long time very confused and thinking my daughter might just be not trying hard enough. I regret that we had that period during our homeschool journey, as I'm sure it did nothing for her self-esteem. But when your then 6 yr old has been able to count to 20 for some time, but then suddenly can't, or can't tell you what number comes before or after 13...I really wanted to pull my hair out.

 

Being able to talk with an adult about their experience with a maths disorder, and how math works for you, it's so very helpful. I think I mentioned above that my husband likely has a maths disorder as well, but he really does not like talking about it. I'll often ask him a question, just to see if I can glean some insight into how G is thinking. If I can understand HOW she's thinking and where the misfire is, than I can better teach the issue.

 

Larissa, what do you think of Mastery Mathematics? It was recommended to me from the special needs coordinator of our state's christian homeschool group (PICCLEAH). I gave it some serious consideration, and may still nab it as a supplement, depending on how G does with MUS.

 

I totally get it. It is hard to grasp how someone with an LD perceives things. Even I can, in theory, see how strange it must be for someone. I've been in airports before where my digital watch isn't set to the right time and I stop to ask someone what time it is and they point to the large analog clock hanging over the terminal and I have to explain to them that I can't read an analog clock quickly and accurately. I have a good sense of humor about it because I recognize just how bizarre that is for the average person!

 

Looking at Mastering Mathematics, it seems really good. Definitely ticks the boxes and I would add it in, if you can. What I like is it seems geared toward encouraging independent learning in the long run, which is important for someone with an LD. We need to learn the weird way our brains work so that we can eventually discover our own shortcuts.

 

I just wrote a mini-write-up on this thread of my view on other programs, including MUS, so do give that a read over as well. :-)

[larissaheart]

You'll have to explain that one :). How did you find the right approach to math — did you discover it yourself, or did your teachers work with you? What exactly was it? What program do you recommend for dyscalculic adults trying to tackle math?

 

It seems like you looked into this in great detail. I didn't; math was pure torture for me throughout school and I wanted to be liberated from it as soon as possible. Math lessons had implications that went far beyond math itself. They crushed my self-esteem completely. I spent all my afternoons in early primary school doing math homework that I never understood, with teachers yelling at me and never explaining concepts in a way that I could make sense of. I wasn't allowed to go home until I finished, so I was at school with only the teacher while the other kids were playing outside.

 

After my experience, it is most certainly fair to say that I personally could never excel at math, or enjoy it, while I was being educated by others. Now that I am a homeschool mom, I don't have any choice but to face both the dyscalculia and the social stuff that came as a result. It may be possible for me to overcome this. If I do eventually become good at math, it would be the result of finding a program and approach that makes sense to me. In school, I did not have the luxury of being surrounded by educators who tried to provide me with that. Homeschooling offers more possibilities for kids with dyscalculia.

 

 

Yet, I would not agree that any dyscalculic student can find the right approach and be good at math. I also do not see the value in trying to pursue that when it is clearly not working. There is a cost, at that cost may be too high. I can function perfectly fine as an adult with my very basic math skills, and I am actually proud that I have developed these basic skills at all.

 

It's interesting that you know people who were English majors despite being dyslectic. I know dyslectics who avoid the written word as much as possible and learned trades instead. If one can overcome these issues, that's wonderful. If that is not possible, we can certainly lead productive lives while actively avoiding activities that we can't engage in because of learning disabilities.

 

I think, for me, discovering my dyscalculia was really liberating. I'd tested as gifted when I was three years old and was put into kindergarten right then and there. A lot of my self-worth was tied into my intellect so, when math started to become a struggle (when I was around eight) I felt ashamed and perceived it as a huge failure on my part. It was something that made me feel dumb. I was publicly humiliated about math by my fifth grade teacher (in a school for gifted kids, this was especially painful) and spent hours being tutored to no avail. I just said I hated math and dragged myself through it every year.

 

But then, in high school, it started to run into subjects that I otherwise really enjoyed, like chemistry, so I did some research and asked to be tested. Nobody else had noticed. My parents just thought I was lazy and I don't even know what my teachers were thinking.

 

When I was finally diagnosed, I could shake off all of that "bad at math" and "dumb" nonsense and say to myself, no, you have a learning disorder, your brain processes this information differently and that's it. I did a lot of research into the positive traits of having it, such as excelling in other areas and just wasn't too hard on myself. I didn't have any teachers who really helped me, I did a lot of my own legwork in terms of finding something that worked for me. I guess I never wanted math to define me or be the reason I did or didn't do something. I didn't want to have options taken off the table. I considered med school and without pushing myself in math, I would never have been able to master the chemistry concepts needed. Finding the right approach was total trial and error and realizing that it needed to cater to how my brain worked, not the other way around. The minute something seemed needlessly confusing, I dropped it. And I started at the very beginning. Went right back to counting, then addition, then subtraction, etc.

 

I do agree that it's not something that should be shoved down peoples' throats, if it's going to turn into a source of anxiety or a full-on phobia, like it was for much of my life, but I'd worry about encouraging a defeatist attitude by saying something like, "Well, this is never going to be something you're good at." I'd prefer to stay realistic but still encouraging, like, "This will always be harder for you than it is for other people but it's your choice how far you'd like to take it." :-)

[larissaheart]

I am sharing my story to point out that there could be alternative solutions for students who truly cannot pass math exams, or who have developed such a phobia that they are not psychologically able to. Age 7 is obviously too young to make the conclusion that dyscalculia is going to be that much of an obstacle, especially for a homeschooled child.

 

Larissa, did you join The Well-Trained Mind forums just to give advice on dyscalculia? Your input has been fascinating. I have never met anyone else with dysclaculia before :).

 

I'm so glad you were able to find a solution that suited you and it's great to present multiple experiences because there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to having an LD. I do like the look of Singapore, as long as someone can be there to reason with the child if they start to over-think ^_^

 

I've actually lurked the forums for ages because a] I'm a huge proponent of home education and I intend to homeschool when the time comes and b] I'm fascinated with theories of education and am pursuing a masters in various education-related fields; I eventually want to do policy work. But yeah, this thread was the first one I actually thought I could contribute to. I imagine after this I will go back to lurking. :p

[lifesadream83]

I would recommend Math U See but I haven't read all the commentary

[geodob]

It might be helpful to get a clearer understanding of Dyscalculia?

Where it goes beyond a difficulty with learning math, to a difficulty with concieving of numbers?

Where it is parallel to learning to write words, where we first need to concieve of letters.

In which case, we use our hearing to concieve of different sounds, and then learn to associate and represent them with the symbols called letters.

 

But we use spatial thinking, to concieve of recognize different sized quantities.

Based on this ability to concieve of different sized quantities, we then learn to associate and represent them the symbols called numbers.

 

You can no doubt appreciate the difficulty with learning and understanding 'letters', if you can't precisely concieve of the sounds to associate with them?

Well with Dyscalculia, it is a parallel difficulty, where people can't precisely concieve of different sized quantities?

So that they have nothing to associate numbers with?

Without anything to associate numbers with? Dyscalculics rather learn numbers in the same way as they learn to recite the alphabet?

So that they learn: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ?

In the same way as: A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J.

 

To appreciate what basic math is like for Dyscalculics? Perhaps you could do a simple arithmetic, but using letters instead?

E+B= ?

G-E= ?

CxB= ?

 

Perhaps even using double digits?

BA+DC= ?

 

Though we could also do a simple addition, that involves 'carrying'?

CD+BG= ?

 

Where perhaps you might have been 'flummoxed'?

While you may have been able work out all of those simple math problems?

Importantly, when you arrived at the answer, their would have been no sense of the answer actually representing a precise quantity?

 

Though the crucial point, is the difference a difficulty with math, and Dyscalculia a math disorder?

As with Dyscalculia, it's not simply learning how to do math?

But firstly with finding a way to concieve of numbers and math?

[Clear Creek]

 

Math-U-See is another I like with a few caveats...this one also depends on you as a parent and your future plans to homeschool. Because if you ever intend to send your child back to mainstream schooling, you may find that the schools are really intolerant of whatever visual methods your child uses to solve problems. I have vivid memories of being in tears in my third grade classroom because the substitute teacher told me I was no longer allowed to use tally-marks to solve the problems on my worksheet. Well-meaning adults will always try and convince children that there's an "easier" or "faster" way. The easiest way for a dyscalculic child to do math is the way that works for them and solves the problem correctly. If that means standing on their head and eating a banana, I truly believe you should let them. So, basically, if you are going to let them use those visual methods they'll pick up from the program forever and you're not intending to try and convince them of an "easier" way down the line and you don't intend to send them (back) to mainstream school, then I think Math-U-See is awesome. I really, really do. It's just whether you can see yourself being okay with them using those methods always. Listening to the founder talk, he is still catering to the average person and not necessarily one with a learning disorder. He's pretty pejorative about needing to know your multiplication facts by rote and "without looking up to the sky or counting on your fingers" and my feeling really is, if you can get the answer, it doesn't matter what little extra tics or crutches you develop along the way. Especially if you have an LD.

 

 

The child isn't meant to use the manipulatives forever with MUS; the reason for the rods is for the child to be able to visualize the amounts and see exactly what is happening in the math. Before we started using MUS my daughter couldn't visualize numbers...she had no idea that ten was two more than eight, those words didn't carry any meaning. The first time she set an 8 block on a ten block and could *see* the two empy spaces, that is when she understood how ten was two more than eight. She learned how to regroup while adding two three-digit numbers this week, and after seeing the instructor combine units to make ten and physically move that ten over to the tens place, it made sense to her! She didn't have to use the blocks to complete her lesson, she understood what she was doing so she could solve the problems traditionally.

 

I don't plan on sending my daughter to public school, but if I did, I would have to explain the new concepts to her every evening with the blocks. It is the only way that she can visualize math; numerical amounts don't automatically make pictures in her head.

[larissaheart]

The child isn't meant to use the manipulatives forever with MUS; the reason for the rods is for the child to be able to visualize the amounts and see exactly what is happening in the math. Before we started using MUS my daughter couldn't visualize numbers...she had no idea that ten was two more than eight, those words didn't carry any meaning. The first time she set an 8 block on a ten block and could *see* the two empy spaces, that is when she understood how ten was two more than eight. She learned how to regroup while adding two three-digit numbers this week, and after seeing the instructor combine units to make ten and physically move that ten over to the tens place, it made sense to her! She didn't have to use the blocks to complete her lesson, she understood what she was doing so she could solve the problems traditionally.

 

I don't plan on sending my daughter to public school, but if I did, I would have to explain the new concepts to her every evening with the blocks. It is the only way that she can visualize math; numerical amounts don't automatically make pictures in her head.

 

That's because MUS wasn't designed for children with learning disorders; it was just a visual way for any child to better understand the concepts.

 

I was only speaking as someone with a mathematical learning disorder and we don't always make the transition into "solving the problems traditionally"; if we work out a way to solve the problem, even if that way is convoluted, it can be very hard for us to break away from that. So, while the intention might not be for the child to carry on with manipulatives forever, a dyscalculic child may feel that they have to. And to force them to get rid of them would likely only undo all the work you did with them so you may as well choose a curriculum that doesn't have them in the first place!

[Clear Creek]

 

That's because MUS wasn't designed for children with learning disorders; it was just a visual way for any child to better understand the concepts.

 

I was only speaking as someone with a mathematical learning disorder and we don't always make the transition into "solving the problems traditionally"; if we work out a way to solve the problem, even if that way is convoluted, it can be very hard for us to break away from that. So, while the intention might not be for the child to carry on with manipulatives forever, a dyscalculic child may feel that they have to. And to force them to get rid of them would likely only undo all the work you did with them so you may as well choose a curriculum that doesn't have them in the first place!

 

Let me get this straight. You have no children. You have never tried to teach anyone (dyscalculic or otherwise) math. You have never seen MUS in person, much less taught a child (dyscalculic or otherwise) with it. You are making a lot of generalizations based solely on your own personal experience as a child.

 

MUS has won awards for its success in Special Education classrooms.

 

I am using MUS with a gifted child and with a child that has undiagnosed LDs (she has symptoms of dyslexia and dyscalculia). I have seen the shift from needing the blocks for every problem to the gradual memorization of math facts and the ability to do problems using the traditional algorithms, without the blocks, with both students, and it since it was a voluntary thing it did not result in undoing any work. And by golly, my 3rd grader, who did not understand place value or two-digit numbers or the patterns of skip counting or how to add and subtract just five months ago, is slowly beginning to understand math! It is a HUGE struggle for her, but it is slowly starting to make sense. This is the experience that I am speaking from, and why I encourage parents of children with LDs to consider MUS. I have seen it work. There are other math programs that will work just as well, I am sure, but I have only found success with MUS, so I can't recommend any others.

 

Also, based on my experience teaching math, there is always more than one way to get a right answer. If my child finds a different way (convoluted or not), it is still correct and they may still choose to use it. I would never make a student "break away" from using any method to solve a math problem. I would also never force a child who still relied on manipulatives to understand and solve a problem to stop using them. If my daughter still occasionally needs them in middle school to understand fractions, so be it. The goal is to understand math.

 

I don't understand your recommendation to not use manipulatives. If a child literally has no number sense, why would it hinder them to be able to see and touch that number value? I tried for years to teach my daughter what six plus three was, but it meant as much to her as asking her to add "quink" plus "flibbergist." Until she could put a six block next to a three block and see that it was the same length as a nine block, it was like a foreign language. Since she now has the ability to picture in her mind that the three block and the six block is the same length as the nine block, she no longer has to put the blocks together to add the digits. And since she can visualize the nine block next to the ten block and see the missing unit block, she knows what ten minus nine is. This is what manipulatives have done for her. She doesn't have to rely on them to do her addition problems forever, she uses them to understand what addition is and to be able to picture number values. This is how she can naturally become less dependent on them and why I don't have to "force" her to stop using them. They aren't a crutch, they are a teaching tool.

[larissaheart]

Let me get this straight. You have no children. You have never tried to teach anyone (dyscalculic or otherwise) math. You have never seen MUS in person, much less taught a child (dyscalculic or otherwise) with it. You are making a lot of generalizations based solely on your own personal experience as a child.

 

MUS has won awards for its success in Special Education classrooms.

 

I am using MUS with a gifted child and with a child that has undiagnosed LDs (she has symptoms of dyslexia and dyscalculia). I have seen the shift from needing the blocks for every problem to the gradual memorization of math facts and the ability to do problems using the traditional algorithms, without the blocks, with both students, and it since it was a voluntary thing it did not result in undoing any work. And by golly, my 3rd grader, who did not understand place value or two-digit numbers or the patterns of skip counting or how to add and subtract just five months ago, is slowly beginning to understand math! It is a HUGE struggle for her, but it is slowly starting to make sense. This is the experience that I am speaking from, and why I encourage parents of children with LDs to consider MUS. I have seen it work. There are other math programs that will work just as well, I am sure, but I have only found success with MUS, so I can't recommend any others.

 

Also, based on my experience teaching math, there is always more than one way to get a right answer. If my child finds a different way (convoluted or not), it is still correct and they may still choose to use it. I would never make a student "break away" from using any method to solve a math problem. I would also never force a child who still relied on manipulatives to understand and solve a problem to stop using them. If my daughter still occasionally needs them in middle school to understand fractions, so be it. The goal is to understand math.

 

I don't understand your recommendation to not use manipulatives. If a child literally has no number sense, why would it hinder them to be able to see and touch that number value? I tried for years to teach my daughter what six plus three was, but it meant as much to her as asking her to add "quink" plus "flibbergist." Until she could put a six block next to a three block and see that it was the same length as a nine block, it was like a foreign language. Since she now has the ability to picture in her mind that the three block and the six block is the same length as the nine block, she no longer has to put the blocks together to add the digits. And since she can visualize the nine block next to the ten block and see the missing unit block, she knows what ten minus nine is. This is what manipulatives have done for her. She doesn't have to rely on them to do her addition problems forever, she uses them to understand what addition is and to be able to picture number values. This is how she can naturally become less dependent on them and why I don't have to "force" her to stop using them. They aren't a crutch, they are a teaching tool.

 

I have no idea why you're being so rude and defensive. As I said when I joined the thread (and I quote):

 

"I'm an adult with dycalculia (and ADHD) and so if you wanted any insights into what worked for me in math throughout school (and beyond), I'd be happy to share. It sounds weird but I almost feel like it's my duty to help other people like me because I had such a hard time.

 

Obviously I can't speak to specific curricula but I can definitely let you know which kinds of curricula work and which ones don't."

 

Other people have asked me for my take on specific curricula, as far as I can give them, and that's what I have done. I can see you've actually completely misinterpreted a lot of what I've said about MUS but I don't really see the point in arguing with you. All I've done is give my opinion, as a person with dycalculia. I've never claimed to be an expert of any kind, just a product of my own experiences. I don't know what about that offends you so much.

[larissaheart]

Let me get this straight. You have no children. You have never tried to teach anyone (dyscalculic or otherwise) math. You have never seen MUS in person, much less taught a child (dyscalculic or otherwise) with it. You are making a lot of generalizations based solely on your own personal experience as a child.

 

MUS has won awards for its success in Special Education classrooms.

 

I am using MUS with a gifted child and with a child that has undiagnosed LDs (she has symptoms of dyslexia and dyscalculia). I have seen the shift from needing the blocks for every problem to the gradual memorization of math facts and the ability to do problems using the traditional algorithms, without the blocks, with both students, and it since it was a voluntary thing it did not result in undoing any work. And by golly, my 3rd grader, who did not understand place value or two-digit numbers or the patterns of skip counting or how to add and subtract just five months ago, is slowly beginning to understand math! It is a HUGE struggle for her, but it is slowly starting to make sense. This is the experience that I am speaking from, and why I encourage parents of children with LDs to consider MUS. I have seen it work. There are other math programs that will work just as well, I am sure, but I have only found success with MUS, so I can't recommend any others.

 

Also, based on my experience teaching math, there is always more than one way to get a right answer. If my child finds a different way (convoluted or not), it is still correct and they may still choose to use it. I would never make a student "break away" from using any method to solve a math problem. I would also never force a child who still relied on manipulatives to understand and solve a problem to stop using them. If my daughter still occasionally needs them in middle school to understand fractions, so be it. The goal is to understand math.

 

I don't understand your recommendation to not use manipulatives. If a child literally has no number sense, why would it hinder them to be able to see and touch that number value? I tried for years to teach my daughter what six plus three was, but it meant as much to her as asking her to add "quink" plus "flibbergist." Until she could put a six block next to a three block and see that it was the same length as a nine block, it was like a foreign language. Since she now has the ability to picture in her mind that the three block and the six block is the same length as the nine block, she no longer has to put the blocks together to add the digits. And since she can visualize the nine block next to the ten block and see the missing unit block, she knows what ten minus nine is. This is what manipulatives have done for her. She doesn't have to rely on them to do her addition problems forever, she uses them to understand what addition is and to be able to picture number values. This is how she can naturally become less dependent on them and why I don't have to "force" her to stop using them. They aren't a crutch, they are a teaching tool.

 

I have no idea why you're being so rude and defensive. As I said when I joined the thread (and I quote):

 

"I'm an adult with dycalculia (and ADHD) and so if you wanted any insights into what worked for me in math throughout school (and beyond), I'd be happy to share. It sounds weird but I almost feel like it's my duty to help other people like me because I had such a hard time.

 

Obviously I can't speak to specific curricula but I can definitely let you know which kinds of curricula work and which ones don't."

 

Other people have asked me for my take on specific curricula, as far as I can give them, and that's what I have done. I can see you've actually completely misinterpreted a lot of what I've said about MUS but I don't really see the point in arguing with you. All I've done is give my opinion, as a person with dycalculia. I've never claimed to be an expert of any kind, just a product of my own experiences. I don't know what about that offends you so much.

[Heathermomster]

 

 

That's because MUS wasn't designed for children with learning disorders; it was just a visual way for any child to better understand the concepts.

 

I was only speaking as someone with a mathematical learning disorder and we don't always make the transition into "solving the problems traditionally"; if we work out a way to solve the problem, even if that way is convoluted, it can be very hard for us to break away from that. So, while the intention might not be for the child to carry on with manipulatives forever, a dyscalculic child may feel that they have to. And to force them to get rid of them would likely only undo all the work you did with them so you may as well choose a curriculum that doesn't have them in the first place!

 

I suppose this depends upon the severity and nature of the maths disability. My son can subitize no problem, has sound fluid reasoning, but slow processing speed.

 

For multiplication, DS used the manipulatives long enough to learn the commutative and distributive property of multiplication. He was 5th grade. At the time, my friends told me I was crazy. Anyho, once he had the properties down, I took the rods away and he still periodically uses the computer to perform short, practice drills. He still has free access to manipulatives at home. I also encourage him to use the white board, draw pictures,....do whatever it takes on his own to solve his math problems. We use math mnemonics and draw pictures too. MUS fractions has been awesome in my home btw.

 

You are right about these methods not being embraced in the classroom. I pulled DS from the classroom because of the pressure he felt to solve problems in the traditional way. The teacher didn't really have a firm grasp on higher math concepts, so couldn't really explain math without tricks. DS also struggled because his peers work looked so different from his own, even when they achieved the same answer. His pacing was slower too.

 

Anyways, I appreciate your input. This is the best math thread that I've seen.

[sweetpea3829]

It might be helpful to get a clearer understanding of Dyscalculia?

Where it goes beyond a difficulty with learning math, to a difficulty with concieving of numbers?

Where it is parallel to learning to write words, where we first need to concieve of letters.

In which case, we use our hearing to concieve of different sounds, and then learn to associate and represent them with the symbols called letters.

 

But we use spatial thinking, to concieve of recognize different sized quantities.

Based on this ability to concieve of different sized quantities, we then learn to associate and represent them the symbols called numbers.

 

You can no doubt appreciate the difficulty with learning and understanding 'letters', if you can't precisely concieve of the sounds to associate with them?

Well with Dyscalculia, it is a parallel difficulty, where people can't precisely concieve of different sized quantities?

So that they have nothing to associate numbers with?

Without anything to associate numbers with? Dyscalculics rather learn numbers in the same way as they learn to recite the alphabet?

So that they learn: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ?

In the same way as: A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J.

 

To appreciate what basic math is like for Dyscalculics? Perhaps you could do a simple arithmetic, but using letters instead?

E+B= ?

G-E= ?

CxB= ?

 

Perhaps even using double digits?

BA+DC= ?

 

Though we could also do a simple addition, that involves 'carrying'?

CD+BG= ?

 

Where perhaps you might have been 'flummoxed'?

While you may have been able work out all of those simple math problems?

Importantly, when you arrived at the answer, their would have been no sense of the answer actually representing a precise quantity?

 

Though the crucial point, is the difference a difficulty with math, and Dyscalculia a math disorder?

As with Dyscalculia, it's not simply learning how to do math?

But firstly with finding a way to concieve of numbers and math?

 

Yes, this was an excellent commentary! This is PRECISELY why my DD struggles with math. She CAN tell you what a number stands for, and represent that quantity...but the actual meaning of the quantity, to her, is nothing. I think that's why, when I brought her to the staircase and SHOWED her that 7 was HIGHER than 4...I think that's why it clicked for her. "Oh, 7 is taller...I see...taller means more!" It's not that she actually gets that 7 is "more" than 4...it's that she understands that 7 is taller and therefore more.

 

Much like a dyslexic can tell you the letters of the alphabet, and even what sounds they make. But those sounds are more or less meaningless to them.

 

Add in visual processing issues (like floating letters or numbers) and you can see how learning would be a struggle for these kids.

 

Excellent commentary. Thank-you for putting that into words.

[sweetpea3829]

Reading the rest of the responses:

 

I think manipulatives are quite important to help a student with LD be able to "see" the concept. But a lot will depend on the student, the nature of their disability, etc.

 

For DD, I have used those metric cubes, much like MUS is set up, but it didn't matter to her. I could put a ten stick on the table, and then 8 cubes next to it, arranged top to bottom, so that she could see that 8 wasn't as much as 10, but she still didn't really "get it" until I actually had her physically up, out of her seat, and moving her body. Now, she can *usually* reliably tell you which number is more or less, verbally, without a visual aid of any sort.

 

This is why, if we ever get the funds together, I intend to purchase an IWB for her. I think it will make a WORLD of difference for her, to physically manipulate numbers, groups, etc.

[Cynful]

Dialectica,

 

I'm glad you feel like you can come and ask questions and pour out the pent up emotions associated with it.

 

Everyone,

 

This has been a fantastic thread and I appreciate everyone's contributions as I continue to learn how to help my son. He's still on 4th/5th grade math and we are just moving through it as we can. My feeling is that they have a lock and its very difficult to find the key (curriculum/method) that works and that lock tends to reset from time to time and you have to find a new key. And sometimes you just have to sit on it for a while and let their brains soak it in (once they do get it). At least that has been our experience so far.

[larissaheart]

I hope people haven't taken my feedback on MUS to be me saying that manipulatives aren't good for someone with an LD; it's quite the opposite, actually! I think MUS is a great curriculum (though it really isn't specifically geared toward people with LDs; if you watch the videos with the founder, that's very plain) and that manipulatives are very helpful for someone with dyscalculia, my only concern was that they may grow dependent (at least for a while) on them. In fact, I was talking about this thread with my mother this evening and before I could even finish my sentence she said, "Oh, you would have wanted to take those to school!"

 

You see, for a homeschooled child, it's really not an issue at all and that's why I said my caveat depended on your approach to homeschooling and whether you were planning to put a child back in mainstream school. Because, as Heathermomster said, they do put an emphasis on solving the problems in a certain "right" way there.

[allymom]

What curriculum have you tried with her so far? My only experience with SM has been 1A/B, and no, I would not use it with a child like you describe. I say this because her twin resides in my house. :D What works for my daughter is MUS. The blocks give her a visual and kinesthetic representation of number values and prevent her from needing to count in order to add/subtract (she had trouble counting accurately as well). Before we started with MUS this past fall, like your daughter she could follow a procedure to solve a problem but had no idea conceptually what she was doing. Somehow Mr. Demme's explanations have been able to teach her the concepts that I could not. If you have not tried it, I highly recommend it. For this type of learner it works exceptionally well.

 

Yes to this! My daughter was diagnosed with dyslexia/reading disorder at age 6 and the developmental pediatrician would not give her a diagnosis of dyscalculic because she was too young or because it all falls under the same category as dyslexia or something, but she did not say she definitely didn't have it. I was certain she did at the time. We have used MUS and it has been great for her! i won't say it's always been easy, nothing is easy for a child with learning disabilities. But it's been a really good fit. She has relied heavily on the blocks and cheat sheets. The first two years she had a sheet copied out of the primer (or the teacher's guide, don't remember for sure) that had pictures of the blocks in ascending order. She colored them in the right colors and wrote the numbers underneath and it helped her a lot in remembering the numbers and figuring out the problems. Only my daughter never had too much trouble with the process, she just couldn't keep her numbers straight. Now that we are getting into more complicated math (area of triangles, rectangles, etc., and long multiplication and division) she is struggling greatly to remember all of her processes and keep it all straight. It's been challenging. But with the mastery approach of MUS, it helps. And she has cheat sheets for those processes as well. Eventually she's able to let go of them...but it takes her a lot more time to get it than it would take the average student.

[ElizabethB]

For a bit later, you can get just the RS Abacus and the activities for the Abacus for much cheaper than the whole RS program. Physically moving 10 balls and swapping for one 10 ball was very helpful for my daughter who is not naturally mathy, but has done well with Singapore and the RS Abacus. They also have an Abacus App, which I have not tried but looks nice.

 

http://store.rightstartmath.com/alabacusstandard.aspx

 

http://store.rightstartmath.com/activitiesforalabacus.aspx

[sweetpea3829]

Elizabeth, one of the things that attracted me to RightStart was the abacus approach. I actually think that would be better for DD than the manipulatives of MUS, because I think the manipulatives might confuse her. At least initially. But...I think the "technique" of MUS might be better for her, and so that's why we're trying MUS first. That and, honestly...I never learned how to use an abacus, myself. Not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm already SWAMPED with trying to get everybody on board with where they need to be. I have a 4 yr old that still doesn't even know his letters yet, because I haven't sat down with him to teach them.

 

So perhaps I'll go ahead and see how she does and if it seems like the manipulatives are still confusing her, I'll try RightStart's abacus.

 

Larissa, I understand what you're saying about the manipulatives. For us, as you pointed out, it's not a concern. Barring some kind of huge major upset in our family, she will always be homeschooled. I can't ever see bringing myself to send her to a classroom where she can feel like crap because she's not on the same level as her peers.

 

Dialecta, I don't have an easy answer for your division question, lol, I'm sorry! I did once see a presentation of division. They had a house, with people inside of it. And then they had a number of smaller houses. And you had to put one person from the big house into each of the smaller houses, one at a time, so that they all had the same number of people...until there were either no more people left in the big house, or not enough people to fit each of the smaller houses.

 

If you check on Pinterest for division ideas, you might find more unique, interesting ways to teach the subject.

 

My 6 yr old is actually starting division in a few weeks. I like the way Singapore presents it initially. They show a group of objects and they give you a number (like in your example, there would be 48 stars and the number would be 8) and you have to circle that number of objects as many times as you can...which would be five times.

 

And now that I just worked that problem in my head, lol, I realized that I actually used skip counting by 8 to 48 to arrive at my answer.

[ElizabethB]

The abacus is for later...for borrowing and carrying. It is one tiny thing to learn and something that is not easy to explain with blocks.

[geodob]

With Dyscalculia, it's not just a difficulty with learning math, but a difficulty with concieving of different sized quantities?

So that with Dyscalculia, what needs to be developed, is a way to 'concieve of numbers'?

As a foundation for doing math.

But their is a particular set of manipulatives that help Dyscalculics to concieve of numbers?

Which simply use our fingers and thumbs.

Though the crucial element, is with the way that they are used?

Where they can be used to count up to 100.

So what I'll do, is explain it, and perhaps you can try it out?

 

To begin with, form a fist with your left hand,

Then extend your 'little finger', as a single finger, represents 1.

Then extend the next finger alongside it.

To form a group of 2 fingers.

Which you can feel as a group, because they are touching each other.

 

So we then extend the next finger to form a group of 3, and the last finger for a group of 4.

 

If you put your hand under the table, no doubt you could form groups of: 3 or 2 or 4 with your fingers?

Where you can 'feel the number'.

 

But for 5 ? What we do, is form a fist again, and extend the thumb.

So that the thumb is use to represent and concieve of a group of 5.

 

With the thumb extended, we can then extend the fingers one by one, to count up to 9.

 

Though having got to 9, we need to 'carry' for 10 ?

 

So what we do, is 'carry 10' over to our right hand.

Where we extend the little finger for 10.

Then add the next finger 20, going up to 40.

With the thumb used for 50.

Which frees up the fingers to count up to 90 on the right hand.

 

So that with the combined use of both hands, we can count up to 99.

 

With this foundation, they can then concieve of 'carrying 100' to a little toe?

Which don't have to do physically, but provides a way to concieve of a 100 and 100's.

 

While this method initially involves physically forming the numbers with the fingers.

The real aim is to develop a 'motor memory' of the numbers?

So that one is able to 'feel' a number, without having to do it physically.

Then be able to use this motor memory, to do mental math.

[ElizabethB]

Oh, your 4 year old, outsource letter sounds and names to the cute talking frog.

 

http://www.amazon.com/LeapFrog-Letter-Factory-Ginny-Westcott/dp/B001TKUXUC/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1360861493&sr=1-1&keywords=letter+factory

 

Starfall is also fun.

 

And, Read, Write, Type is easy and fun to do on their own with only a it of help occasionally.

 

 

[kitten18]

I'll have to agree that math manipulatives can be an extremely helpful tool. As a child, the only arithmetic that made sense to me was dealing with money. Coins were my manipulatives, back when manipulatives were not popular (at home, not allowed in the classroom of course). I don't think any of my teachers ever explained what the numbers we were supposed to add meant. Of course, a visual presentation of the value of numbers may not solve the problem of not understanding math. But it may well help.

 

I actually have a practical question right now, if that is OK? We're currently working on division, and it is getting hard for me. I can do multiplication though serial addition. We will be working on memorizing the multiplication tables now, both me and DD :). If there are multiple digits, I'll add them one column at a time. This works. Division is harder. Can anyone explain it to me? I can work "easy" problems like 15/3 out, but not for instance 48/8. Is there an easy way of working this out? Or does one simply memorize the multiplication tables and then work the answer out backward?

 

This is probably a grand example of how bad I still am at math now. This is not a problem for me in real life, because I have a calculator :). But I want to teach DD, so I want to know.

Have you watched the videos at educationunboxed? They are really FANTASTIC!!! She, with her girls explain division (and many other math concepts) with cuisennaire rods. The way she explains stuff makes so much sense to me, I can't tell you how many lightbulb moments I have had watching her.

 

I wish I could link, my right click is broken. I will try to come back and do it later.

[sweetpea3829]

I actually understand what Geo is saying up there. The approach is quite similar to the approach that TOUCH math uses. But in TOUCH, the number itself becomes the manipulative.

 

Elizabeth, I almost picked up the green frog this past weekend, lol. My 4 and 3 yr olds have just not shown any interest in learning their letters or numbers. Both of my BIGS new their letters and letter sounds by 4, even DD with the LDs. But the Littles? They'd rather play army guy, and build forts and whatnot. I'm not terribly concerned, but I do realize that I really should get at least the 4 yr old going soon. He's turning 5 in April.

 

I so wish we could do Starfall or something similar. We live in a very rural area, and to boot, our neighbors are all Mennonite (read: no internet interest around here). We are using a MiFi from Verizon with very limited data and I run out most months. In August, I'm going to see about switching to satellite internet and hopefully we'll have better data lmits then. But for right now...our hands are tied.

[sweetpea3829]

And Dialectica, yes...lol, I'm not sure if the public schools would approve of the method, but I've always done division in reverse, with skip counting like that. At least for numbers within 100. Above 100, I'd write it out the long way.

[ElizabethB]

You can buy a CD for Read, Write, Type. It is similar to Starfall, but teaches more things.

 

http://www.talkingfingers.com/product_tour/index.html