Question to Christian parents

[fluffybunny]

Any wise suggestions for this? My ds, 12, has a bit of an 'attitude' when I try to start our day with a short, light bible reading. I've been reading a couple of proverbs each morning, and the responses I get from ds range from eye rolling and saying: "du-uh!", to outright refusal to listen. :crying: Faith is important to me, and I'm sad that he doesn't 'get' it, and even more sad that he mocks it. He doesn't like Omnibus as there is "too much God stuff in there", even though I read it to him, and leave out most of the long winded lectures about God and make it short and to the point. He is even resistive to going to church as 'they pray too much'. And it's a fabulous church that is really geared to youth. So what would you do?

[Rosie_0801]

 

Frankly? I'd tell him to shut up. He's entitled to think what he likes in the privacy of his own head, but he doesn't have the right to behave rudely. If you had younger children, I'd keep doing what you are doing, but since he appears to be your only, I'd prune the "God stuff" as much as you can without ceasing to be you, preferably exchanging it with secular sources. You can't make him leave your house as a Christian, but you can make a good effort at ensuring he leaves your house with suitable, secular values. If you don't know where to go with that, start a thread because there are plenty of people doing that who can explain their povs.

 

 

:grouphug:

[mommaduck]

Sit down and speak with him about what his issues with God are. Does he question the faith you are raising him in...does he have a problem with specific practices of your faith...is the issue that he just finds reading, reading together, or God "boring"...etc. I would listen to him and what he has to say. Remember, his spiritual journey is his own. You cannot make him believe the same as you do. You can, however, after listening to him, explain that you do not expect him to agree, but you do expect him to show you respect and to respect the faith practices in your home. He may disagree quietly and speak with you at other times about his feelings on the subject.

[Heathermomster]

Ted Tripp has written the book Shepherding a Child's Heart. You and your spouse may want to read that together and in private.

 

You didn't mention your denomination. There is a daily devotional that I just picked up for my son called My Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers. Maybe consider picking up a daily devotional and keep a prayer journal with your child. There is a free booklet on the internet that discusses how to pray called 7 Minutes with God that I have found very useful for teaching how to pray. You could also save Bible time until your spouse is home and share that time with your DS and DH.

 

As I understand it, Omnibus is a bust for many kids and parents. Quite frankly, the book list might not be a pleasure read for many middle schoolers, and I would expect some balking.

[mommaduck]

Ted Tripp has written the book Shepherding a Child's Heart. You and your spouse may want to read that together and in private.

 

You didn't mention your denomination. There is a daily devotional that I just picked up for my son called My Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers. Maybe consider picking up a daily devotional and keep a prayer journal with your child. There is a free booklet on the internet that discusses how to pray called 7 Minutes with God that I have found very useful for teaching how to pray. You could also save Bible time until your spouse is home and share that time with your DS and DH.

 

As I understand it, Omnibus is a bust for many kids and parents. Quite frankly, the book list might not be a pleasure read for many middle schoolers, and I would expect some balking.

If you are using Omnibus, you probably won't have a problem with Training Hearts, Teaching Minds. It's short. Omnibus is a bust for many kids and not just because of the religious aspect of it, but rather that the style is just not a good fit for the student. I've used it with my oldest also when we were Reformed.

[dereksurfs]

This is a tough one as it speaks to the heart of the child. Where is his heart with God? Does he believe in God? If not what is the root of his disbelief? These are questions to ask yourself. Then gently come along side him and try to discuss these issues with him. Ultimately it will be his decision which he will own some day. But hopefully while under your roof you can provide him with as much information as you can about the Christian faith.

 

The second aspect is respecting your faith which has to occur whether he believes or not. Learning to show respect to parents is important at his age. As he gets older in his teens mild disrespect can grow into something more blatant. I've seen it too many times. I know its like walking a tight rope between both love and respect. But both are essential at such a critical juncture of his life.

[Greta]

My ds, 12, has a bit of an 'attitude' when I try to start our day with a short, light bible reading. I've been reading a couple of proverbs each morning, and the responses I get from ds range from eye rolling and saying: "du-uh!",

 

I could be off-base here - you know your son and I do not. But I'll tell you what this brought to my mind wrt to my daughter. You know how toddlers go through this thing where they try to establish their independence - I can do it myself, mommy! (whether they really can or not). I feel like my daughter (13 now, but this started at 12) is going through establishing another level of independence right now as a young teen. Anything which she perceives as being beneath her level is automatically rejected out of hand, and is insulting to her. On the other hand, if I give her a challenge that she perceives as being above her level - she jumps at the chance to prove she can do it.

 

I notice that you said a short, light Bible reading such as a proverb, and his reaction is "du-uh" like he already knows that. Perhaps what he's reacting most strongly to is his perception that this is beneath his level? Perhaps you could try picking out a more rigorous, deep, or demanding Bible study. Tell him you can see that he's ready for something more grown-up and challenging. And see if that catches his attention and gives him a little motivation.

 

As I said, this is just guesswork based upon my experiences with my own daughter. But I wanted to throw it out there as a possibility. He may be reacting more to the perceived level of the work rather than to your faith itself. :grouphug: Hang in there. This is a tough, but really fun and rewarding, age.

[NittanyJen]

Maybe instead of short, disconnected Bible verses, he s ready to discuss a short passage-- read it and ask him what he hears. Get out of the Psalms and dig into the prophets some. Be open to him wrestling with the controversial figure that Paul truly is, and don't allow yourself to be frightened or defensive when he questions what he hears. Real faith is not afraid of wrestling with things and asking questions, and if he sees you are comfortable saying, "Yeah, I don't get that either, and I can still be a good Christian while wrestling with that" he will notice it and remember. The most important lesson may be that he is still loved and accepted despite his doubts. IMHO, the stronger Christian is the questioning, open-eyed, honest Christian, rather thn the blindly accepting one who fails to question things that make no sense. Many of our youth are being turned off by being asked to just accept and not question, particularly if we teach them well in logic and critical thinking.

 

Kids are so smart. They know the difference between being asked to just swallow something and being able to discuss and think about it in their own terms... We teach them this in history; why would we not do so in religion? After honest reflection, faith still exists and is central, because it was not threatened at all by open examination.

 

 

[Paula in MS]

I'm with Greta. The first thing that I thought was that he's not able to relate to the religious studies you are doing. Why not simply assign Bible reading like the rest of school? No discussion, pushing, or questions. Just be available to him if he wants to talk. Hopefully, this is a phase he will grow out of.

[Embassy]

This is a tough one as it speaks to the heart of the child. Where is his heart with God? Does he believe in God? If not what is the root of his disbelief? These are questions to ask yourself. Then gently come along side him and try to discuss these issues with him. Ultimately it will be his decision which he will own some day. But hopefully while under your roof you can provide him with as much information as you can about the Christian faith.

 

The second aspect is respecting your faith which has to occur whether he believes or not. Learning to show respect to parents is important at his age. As he gets older in his teens mild disrespect can grow into something more blatant. I've seen it too many times. I know its like walking a tight rope between both love and respect. But both are essential at such a critical juncture of his life.

 

:iagree: I'd want to sit down and have a chat about his questions, concerns, and ideas about God. You can't make him accept Christianity, but you can help answer his questions. Respect should be expected though even if he doesn't agree. I'd also build in time during the day for your son to spend time with God, however that may look. I have a kid who likes to lay on the couch and listen to music as his way of connecting to God. Bible study is separate.

[Tranquility7]

This is a tough one as it speaks to the heart of the child. Where is his heart with God? Does he believe in God? If not what is the root of his disbelief? These are questions to ask yourself. Then gently come along side him and try to discuss these issues with him. Ultimately it will be his decision which he will own some day. But hopefully while under your roof you can provide him with as much information as you can about the Christian faith.

These would be my questions too.

 

He doesn’t seem to care what the word of God says… likely because he doesn’t know Him? We expose our kids over and over to the Word through devotions, and yet it is not then, but rather in the everyday struggles of life when we can really help them *know* God – and love Him.

 

I’d look for opportunities to help him see his sin – not so that you can condemn him for it, but so that you can show him his need for God’s mercy and grace. Something like – if you ask him to take out the trash and he gives you lots of grief about it, then later, in a quieter, calmer moment, talk about it…

What did you say/do when I asked you to take out the garbage? (trying to help him acknowledge *what* he did)

Why do you think you responded that way? (trying to draw out an understanding of selfishness, etc. – trying to show him his own *heart*)

Do you think I ever respond that way? (trying to show him universality of sin, as well as the fact that even if our outer actions are “under controlâ€, our hearts can still be sinful)

Why don’t we just stop responding that way? (trying to show him that we *struggle* against our sin – it is not something we can “just stop†– and in fact, sometimes we love our sin, and don’t even care to stop)

Then bring him around to showing Him that God has grace on us, and that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (Eph 2) and that if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) but that if we *confess* our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

 

Anyway, that is just an example conversation – my point is just that I think your son needs to see his sin and be shown God’s kindness in the Gospel. It may take many, many times, but ultimately, that is what you want him to respond to, right?

 

I might even drop the daily readings, for now. Maybe. Or change it up, and rather than just a daily reading following an external program, find specific things in the Word that could appeal to him. For instance, if he likes to play a sport, talk about his friends on his team, and his coach. Help him imagine a coach who always told him he did everything great, versus a coach who pointed out what he was doing wrong, and helped him learn how to do it correctly. Which coach would he rather have? Would he always like hearing what he is doing wrong (probably not)? Which coach would make him a better player? Which coach would be showing more love for his players? Then bring it around to Proverbs 27:6 - Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Talk about what “wounds from a friend†would be, and what “kisses of an enemy†would look like. Which coach was being a friend, and which coach was being an enemy? What about in actual friendships? Give an example (such as, if you saw a friend shoplift from a store, what would you do? How would you be a true friend to him? Do you think that friend would appreciate it (maybe not at the time, maybe not ever)? How would you be an enemy? Why does it matter?

 

Better than these examples is a true example from his actual life – maybe a conflict that happened or a trial he has gone through.

 

You have to pick the moment carefully. Your goal is not to point out his flaws, but rather to show him God’s grace for him, in *spite* of his flaws.

 

I’d be really careful about forcing the daily devotions issue. You could end up raising a child who is “externally compliant†to this routine, and yet whose heart is still cold towards God, and once he leaves your nest he will be relieved to be free of those rules. But I think you want a child who has internal heart-knowledge of God, and IMHO, forcing daily Bible reading are not ultimately the way to get a reluctant child there.

 

Just my $0.02, FWIW...

[fluffybunny]

Thank you so much for your inspiring and thought provoking replies everyone. I agree that pushing him will probably make things worse. He does love the Narnia series and listens to the CDs all time; it's kind of theology by stealth. And yes, perhaps proverbs is a bit too simplistic for his age and stage where they say "duh!" at anything that insults their perceived intelligence. I love Paul's letters, so I will look for one that is suitable to read at some time in the future. As for Omnibus, the books we use are the child versions, and I omit the really heavy duty stuff; he does enjoy the classics.

[...................]

I think you should let him do some teaching. My 11yo has heard so much bible study, theology, proverbs, prayer, Sunday school, and bible curriculum. I noticed last year that he really wanted to talk about application, and share what he knows and help me talk about it. Additionally, he was tired of the same "do this and don't do that." Lessons. He really has enjoyed the Apologia Worldview series! Instead of me just teaching, we are having wonderful discussions about faith, life, and what others believe.

 

Secondly, if you have a husband, you both need to team up to make it clear to your son that this type of rude, disrespectful behavior is totally unacceptable. It'll start in one area and grow like an ugly monster if you don't check it now.

 

Shepherding a Child's Heart is a bit too young for my 11yo. I feel it's strange, spanking a child who is an inch shorter than me. I don't recommend it for this age range. We have had more success with clear lists of time outs, or loss of privileges for bad behavior.

[fluffybunny]

Calming Tea, I'm just looking at the Apologia books and they look like lovely books, with stories and pictures; but are they definitely directed to at least 12-13 year olds? He won't have a bar of anything he perceives as childish.

[Heathermomster]

I think you should let him do some teaching. My 11yo has heard so much bible study, theology, proverbs, prayer, Sunday school, and bible curriculum. I noticed last year that he really wanted to talk about application, and share what he knows and help me talk about it. Additionally, he was tired of the same "do this and don't do that." Lessons. He really has enjoyed the Apologia Worldview series! Instead of me just teaching, we are having wonderful discussions about faith, life, and what others believe.

 

Secondly, if you have a husband, you both need to team up to make it clear to your son that this type of rude, disrespectful behavior is totally unacceptable. It'll start in one area and grow like an ugly monster if you don't check it now.

 

Shepherding a Child's Heart is a bit too young for my 11yo. I feel it's strange, spanking a child who is an inch shorter than me. I don't recommend it for this age range. We have had more success with clear lists of time outs, or loss of privileges for bad behavior.

 

I kinda agree with you. I was thinking of the latter part of Shepherding a Child's Heart where it discusses dealing with teens. The author doesn't suggest spanking teens but rather maintaining a positive relationship with the objective of ministry. Unfortunately, the teen area is a very short section at the end of the book. Perhaps the OP's pastor can make a suggestion.

[Donna A.]

I kinda agree with you. I was thinking of the latter part of Shepherding a Child's Heart where it discusses dealing with teens. The author doesn't suggest spanking teens but rather maintaining a positive relationship with the objective of ministry. Unfortunately, the teen area is a very short section at the end of the book. Perhaps the OP's pastor can make a suggestion.

 

How about Age of Opportunity instead? It's directed to teens, or rather, directed to parents of teens about having a good relationship with them. There are "school" references in the book, but since most of our homeschooled teens have other outside activities, the principles would be the same no matter where they are. http://www.amazon.com/Age-Opportunity-Biblical-Parenting-Resources/dp/0875526055

[...................]

I have heard lots of good things about Age of Opportunity and Instructing a Child's Heart! I need to buy the first one!

[Lori D.]

First, :grouphug:, as this is a very emotional and painful situation for you! We are in your corner, supporting, encouraging, praying for you and your family!

 

 

Next, as others have posted, an attitude correction is very important here, in teaching DS how to disagree respectfully -- and that disrespect is not acceptable. Hopefully the resources others have mentioned will help. I just have to add, though that -- JMO -- DH and I found Shepherding the Child's Heart to be VERY conservative and unyielding -- and likely to make our rebellious DS even more so. (We have an extremely strong-willed child, and while we did use some ideas from the book, we could only do so very *cautiously*.) Other/additional books to consider might be Heart of Anger, Power of a Praying Parent.

 

Getting our DS into things that stretched him and encouraged leadership was VERY helpful with his attitude at that age. Things like martial arts classes (requires respect of others), debate team/club, involvement in a mock legislative or mock trial program, working as class assistant at Sunday School or running AV for church, etc.

 

 

Finally, boys really pull away from mom at this age about *everything*. Shifting to a Bible study with Dad, or a young adult man would be advisable at this age, rather than with mom. Or, you might consider a whole family read-aloud a few nights a week with books that could prompt interesting discussion on God, faith, etc. Some titles our DSs enjoyed in middle school/high school as read-aloud/discuss books: The Hiding Place (autobiography of Corrie ten Boom); God's Smuggler (autobiography of Brother Andrew);Screwtape Letters (Lewis); Do Hard Things (Harris); and How to Be Your Own Selfish Pig (MacCauley). Those would be great books for DS to do with Dad or a young adult man instead of a straight-up Bible study.

 

And if a Bible study seems like "too much about God" for DS right now, perhaps a Worldview study would be helpful, as it compares various philosophies and religions through how they answer the "big questions of life". Teens are often asking these questions and it is good to encourage wrestling with them. Summit Ministeries (grade 11+) and Worldview Academy (grade 9 or 10+) have resources that may be of interest. For age 12, I'd start fairly simply with How To Be Your Own Selfish Pig, or with the Lightbearers middle school program -- though those may feel "too Christian" or "too God-focused" to DS... Perhaps doing it as part of a co-op class and being able to discuss the questions raised with other students and a teacher-not-you might go over?

 

 

Blessings, and wishing you and DS the very best as you navigate this difficult phase! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[fluffybunny]

Thank you Lori; great advice. I bought the Apologia "Who Am I" book, yesterday, as it looks like a great book; with stories and pictures in it. I didn't go for the first book in the series on purpose, as it has 'Who is God' as the title, which might scare him off right now. So, I'm hoping it works if I start with the 2nd book, and maybe finish with the 1st book! The reviews suggest that children really like this book and ask for more. Hope I can fit everything in!

[PeterPan]

Fluffy, you've already gotten a lot of very good advice. That issue of pushing for independence and age-appropriateness was the first thing I thought of when I read your post. That's typical to the age, and needing to come to their own, personal faith is normal too. No, reading a proverb a day isn't probably the way to go with a 12 yo boy. Is there a father figure he can talk with? That would be my addition to this scenario. There's something different for a dc talking these things through with their father. We're sort of common as mothers, because we do math and everything else. That reserves it for a special time and brings some respect.

 

Next, I'd consider it more important to engender open discussion, situations where you are actually open to him saying what he thinks. You might be able to work through Paul Little's books (Know What You Believe, Know Why You Believe) or How Not to be Your Own Selfish Pig. The latter was very thought-provoking to me. You might find it interesting reading for yourself. Sometimes it's helpful to go back to those basics of what we believe and why and just get questions and doubts out in the open.

 

Also, if you haven't thought about it, you might consider looking for a good, Bible-preaching christian camp to send him to this summer. There are lots of them scattered across the country (the Wilds comes to mind, but there are many), and he'll have the chance to hear some preaching aimed at the concerns of kids his age. Might make things more relevant to him and give him a chance to think.

 

I've only seen small bits of the Who Am I books. Don't go too young on this. They're wanting to become little adults, so you have to treat them like they're ready to think and debate and ask questions and argue.

[Chris in VA]

I'm the mom of a prodigal, and I'd say it started around 11 or 12. I believe he did not get his questions answered in a way he could relate to--and the bible just became so irrelevant to him (it's not, of course, but it just broke my heart when he rejected it out of hand). But concurrent with that was our move here, and less time with his dad. He was wounded by that.

 

One thing to seriously consider--Sometimes underneath the breaking away from the faith of the family is a heart full of pain--Not saying your son is breaking away, or that he's in pain, but rebellion can sometimes be rooted in painful experiences. Sometimes it's not being heard, being frustrated at not having answers, but sometimes it's really deeper. In the breaking away from the family that is natural and developmentally appropriate, there is an element of exploration and the "I do it!" so familiar at 2 or 3--Second Toddlerhood, some call the teen years! But when there is woundedness bound up with the natural seeking of one's own faith/values, it can lead to rejection of the family values. Heart of Anger is a good book to look into, because it shows how the anger and rebellion can be rooted in hurt.

 

IOW, I see what your son is doing as partly appropriate to his development, and partly (PERHAPS) a symptom of a wound. Logic stage is questioning stage--if the questions are not allowed to be explored, and answers found, it can really send some kids off the deep end. Not saying he's there--not at all. But just a caution, if you don't mind me being rather blunt.

 

Know What You Believe is a good, basic intro to Christianity (not all branches, but pretty much the basics, tho if you are Catholic or Orthodox you are going to have a little different spin on some topics). Getting a man to go thru this with him might be a good idea.

 

But simply building the relationship, esp between his dad and him, might be the ticket.

 

Sorry so scattered and blunt--it's an issue dear to me b/c of my son,and I'm not always clear on how to express what's in my heart.

[Harriet Vane]

I find that devotionals and Bible studies really do not keep up with what a child is truly capable of doing. By the time they reach junior high, most of the stuff written for that age is far below what they are able to understand. I spent many years as director of Sunday School at two different churches. For the junior high age, I insist on curriculum that is high school level of even adult level. My experience over many years has been that the kids THRIVE on this type of challenge. They want to be more grown-up.

 

You might consider Explorer's high school materials. They are excellent and in-depth.

 

http://www.explorerbiblestudy.org/

 

Whether you go with Explorer's or not, though, consider doing the following:

 

--Tell him it's clear he's past all that "baby stuff" and that he is ready for high school material in this area. This will make him feel grown-up and he will be more likely to engage if he feels this way.

 

--Consider allowing HIM to pick the subject matter. For example, if you do Explorer's, show him the range of possible books in the Quest series and ask him which one he wants to do. Or, alternately, take him to your local Christian book store and work with him to pick a study he likes--I would especially recommend those by NavPress or InterVarsity Press. Having some ownership over what he studies will help him engage. Just be careful to not allow him to pick a study that is light, easy, or cartoonish because you will continue to have the same issues.

 

--Let him study on his own. Let him set himself up with a notebook and highlighter and go for it. Ask that he read the Bible, pray, and journal for a bit. Don't try to make it a looooong devotional--have him start with shooting for 15 minutes. If he goes longer, fine, but don't push it.

 

--Once a week ask him to chat with you or preferably his father about what he has studied over the week. My own son craves time with his father and feels that, as a man, his father can relate to him better. Frankly, I am the better teacher and more qualified because of classes and training I have had, but as a woman my son does not feel I can fully understand what goes on inside his head. This is fine with me--he and I still have a strong relationship and he does confide many things to me. However, he responds to his father as a male differently than he does to me, so talking to his father about spiritual things is the most effective route for him. The bottom line is for him to learn and pray throughout the week, and to talk about it with someone.

[ktgrok]

this is something that is close to me, as I have a 13 year old that is a skeptic at best and agnostic at worst. I've realized that the stuff that is supposed to draw people to church/religion doesn't work for him. He doesn't want youth group. He doesn't want funny stuff. He is ok with our liturgical church. He is ok with Bible Mesh or other general reading of the bible, mainly because he knows he will find references in literature. I've struggled to know how to reach him. I'm thinking perhaps his "God language" is service. He greatly enjoyed helping at a soup kitchen last year. So I've been thinking maybe I need to find a way he can serve the church,and God's people, in a more hands on way. To experience God rather than study God. Chris in VA, do you think something like what I'm thinking might have helped your son?

[Chris in VA]

Katie,

 

I'm not sure. I do know ds just missed out on the mission trips we take with the youth group. He turned away the year before he could have gone.

 

I may get bashed for this, but honestly, I think some of his problem of disbelief came in particularly strong (last-straw, if you will) when one of his youth group leaders insisted on 7 day creationism as the only option. I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back, it was then that he really turned off. I'm not saying that person or that belief was wrong, just that he couldn't swallow it, and to not have any alternatives that are within the pale of orthodoxy presented was a huge, huge mistake.

[ktgrok]

Katie,

 

I'm not sure. I do know ds just missed out on the mission trips we take with the youth group. He turned away the year before he could have gone.

 

I may get bashed for this, but honestly, I think some of his problem of disbelief came in particularly strong (last-straw, if you will) when one of his youth group leaders insisted on 7 day creationism as the only option. I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back, it was then that he really turned off. I'm not saying that person or that belief was wrong, just that he couldn't swallow it, and to not have any alternatives that are within the pale of orthodoxy presented was a huge, huge mistake.

I actually had a talk about this with my son just recently. He thought he HAD to believe in a 7 day creation to be Christian. He was suprised to know that I don't, and many in our Church do not, and lots of Christians don't. He actually argued with me about it. Mere Christianity is the only book that has touched him.

[ktgrok]

Katie,

 

I'm not sure. I do know ds just missed out on the mission trips we take with the youth group. He turned away the year before he could have gone.

 

I may get bashed for this, but honestly, I think some of his problem of disbelief came in particularly strong (last-straw, if you will) when one of his youth group leaders insisted on 7 day creationism as the only option. I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back, it was then that he really turned off. I'm not saying that person or that belief was wrong, just that he couldn't swallow it, and to not have any alternatives that are within the pale of orthodoxy presented was a huge, huge mistake.

I actually had a talk about this with my son just recently. He thought he HAD to believe in a 7 day creation to be Christian. He was suprised to know that I don't, and many in our Church do not, and lots of Christians don't. He actually argued with me about it. Mere Christianity is the only book that has touched him.

[...................]

Wonderful discussion.

[Heathermomster]

About creation views...Has any publisher written a book listing and explaining the views? For instance, spelling out YE or Day Age? I would like to see a list.

[Donna A.]

About creation views...Has any publisher written a book listing and explaining the views? For instance, spelling out YE or Day Age? I would like to see a list.

 

I know that Jay Wile does so in Apologia science from 7th and up. It's especially prominent in the Biology course.