frustrated with ds13 and math

[ktgrok]

deep breaths....I just dont know what to do. Or if I should do anything. He is 13, in 7th grade, and driving himself and me insane over math. He is doing Algebra 1, using Kinetic Books. He is very very smart. That is most of the problem. He is used to being able to kind of pay attention, figure things out himself, and get it all right immediately with no real effort. Turns out Algebra doesn't work that way. Which, in all reality, makes it really good that he is doing it, as he needed to learn how to work at something. But, he does NOT like this.

 

He also, to be fair, has some learning disability issues. He's been tested and has coding issues, so looking at a problem then writing it down is harder for him than most people. He also has poor working memory. But, that's not going away, and his IQ more than makes up for it. As I told him, math is not going to get easier so time to realize that and just do the work.

 

I thought he was doing better. He was getting better scores on the practice problems. Then he failed his last quiz. This is the second one he's failed. (last one he got a B). He did it at his father's house and they went over it. It was simple mistakes mostly. Plus I guess still some confusion on negative numbers. So we will go back over negatives and watch some Kahn videos. But the real problem is his attitude. I guess he told his father that he shouldn't have to do highschool work in middle school. That none of his friends at public school have to do this. Which is true..his friends in public school are average students at best and not in honors classes, not taking academic electives, etc. But my son is gifted, and has the ability to do more than they do. Plus, money wise, he needs to maximize his chances for scholarships. So he needs to be on an honors track, which in this area means Algebra in 7th grade. And again, if he would really apply himself I think he is more than capable. He just doesn't like it and doesn't want to do it.

 

Any thoughts?

[ktgrok]

Thought about this more, and realized this may be just him wanting me to work with him more? I've got a 1 month old, and a 2 year old, so this year I picked curriculum that he could do independently. I don't think he likes that, and that may be part of the problem. hmm..not sure how to fix that exactly.

[Luckymama]

If you were able to work with him, sitting side-by-side, you would immediately see where he is having difficulty :grouphug:

[abbeyej]

Thought about this more, and realized this may be just him wanting me to work with him more? I've got a 1 month old, and a 2 year old, so this year I picked curriculum that he could do independently. I don't think he likes that, and that may be part of the problem. hmm..not sure how to fix that exactly.

 

I can't tell you how to make the 2yo and 1mo not need you for an hour here and there while you help the 13yo ;), but I think it's a useful (and probably accurate) revelation. If you can possibly find a way to swing it, it sounds like he really needs you right now. And that's a sweet thing. Really.

[ktgrok]

I can't tell you how to make the 2yo and 1mo not need you for an hour here and there while you help the 13yo ;), but I think it's a useful (and probably accurate) revelation. If you can possibly find a way to swing it, it sounds like he really needs you right now. And that's a sweet thing. Really.

 

You mean you aren't going to babysit them for me while i help DS13? Hmm...we might be able to swing it in the evening when DH is home, but that doesn't work every evening. The times I sit with him he seems to do just fine, other than simple mistakes. I need to crack down on him showing his work more neatly, but honestly, half the time it is that he read the question wrong...wondering how much of that is careless and how much is the learning disability.

[freesia]

I don't know if it will work for you but this is what I did with my careless ds when he did pre-algebra last year. I told him that he was ahead in math and that I didn't actually care if he learned an ounce of math this year because we could redo it next year with no shame. What I did care about was that he learned to copy his problems carefully, carefully work the problems and check his work. Then I gave him incentives for less than 2 or 3 wrong per day (careless error--conceptual errors he still go the incentive but we spent time reteaching). I made him redo anything he got wrong (sometimes during screen time.)

 

When he complained I reminded him that this is what we are learning this year--to work carefully--so we need to spend time on it. If he said, "I know the math I just was careless!" I said, "I know you know the math but remember we are working on being less careless this year. The math is secondary."

 

We came a long, long way. Now, he is still a middle school boy and is maintaining an 88 average on tests bc he refuses to recheck his tests thoroughly. It kills me bc he is capable of a high A. But it's not a C, iykwim?

Edited October 28, 2012 by freesia

[MomatHWTK]

My 6th grader is doing pre-algebra. The algebra is actually easier for him than long division and multiplication was- I don't think he could pass an actual test in either of those just because remember all the steps is so difficult. He has a processing speed disorder, there are about 40 points between his cognitive IQ and his processing. Of the PS kids I know, 1 is a freshman and doing algebra, one is 13 (7th grade), two are 12 (6th grade) and doing either pre-algebra or Algebra 1.

 

If they are able, the kids are given algebra in 6th grade at several of our local public school now. Other schools wait one more year and start it in 7th.

 

What I do help my Ds with is the scribing. I don't ask him to always do the long computations because the short term memory problems really do make that difficult. I ask him to walk me through the problem for mastery of the concept, but if he can't remember what 4 X 8 is in order to complete the computation, I help him out. (I do continue to work on the weak areas, but it helps him to move forward with things he is good at while we work. KWIM?)

Edited October 28, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[ktgrok]

I don't know if it will work for you but this is what I did with my careless ds when he did pre-algebra last year. I told him that he was ahead in math and that I didn't actually care if he learned an ounce of math this year because we could redo it next year with no shame. What I did care about was that he learned to copy his problems carefully, carefully work the problems and check his work. Then I gave him incentives for less than 2/3 wrong per day (careless error--conceptual errors he still go the incentive but we spent time reteaching). I made him redo anything he got wrong (sometimes during screen time.)

 

When he complained I reminded him that this is what we are learning this year--to work carefully--so we need to spend time on it. If he said, "I know the math I just was careless!" I said, "I know you know the math but remember we are working on being less careless this year. The math is secondary."

 

We came a long, long way. Now, he is still a middle school boy and is maintaining an 88 average on tests bc he refuses to recheck his tests thoroughly. It kills me bc he is capable of a high A. But it's not a C, iykwim?

 

brilliant

[kiana]

I do like the idea of incentives for careful copying of work. I would set the incentive at something smaller than his current rate of careless errors, but not unachievable. For example, if he currently misses half of the problems due to careless errors, set the rate at 2/3 or 3/4 without careless errors.

[ktgrok]

When my oldest ds was that age, I got him some crayon/marker thingies for writing on glass. As I sat at the dining room table helping his younger brother, older ds would do the algebra problem on the dining room window. I could see if from where I was sitting so I could see where he was going wrong. He, in turn, was having a fun break from using paper and pencil.

 

Also, the best advice I got when I started homeschooling was to focus on the child's character development more than the academics. Going through life doing slip-shot, careless work will not serve your ds well in life. Might I strongly suggest that you slow down and back up in order to focus on his work ethic rather than focusing on getting a scholorship?

 

I've never homeshooled with an infant or toddler in tow, so I can only imagine how difficult that is!

 

thank you, and everyone else that replied! I was so upset I actually put him in the lottery for next year for a local charter school, then read all these replies. You are all SO right. I"m going to tell him that this year a majority of his grade is going to be based on reading the question carefully and showing his work clearly. That the important thing is to learn those skills as he will need them the rest of his schooling, so that is our focus. Thank you for reminding me that the skill and character issues are more important than the algebra!

[Corraleno]

He is very very smart. That is most of the problem. He is used to being able to kind of pay attention, figure things out himself, and get it all right immediately with no real effort. Turns out Algebra doesn't work that way. Which, in all reality, makes it really good that he is doing it, as he needed to learn how to work at something. But, he does NOT like this.

 

He also, to be fair, has some learning disability issues. He's been tested and has coding issues, so looking at a problem then writing it down is harder for him than most people. He also has poor working memory. But, that's not going away, and his IQ more than makes up for it. As I told him, math is not going to get easier so time to realize that and just do the work.

This is sooooo not true. :( Saying that a high IQ "more than makes up for" learning disabilities is like saying that a gifted kid with dyslexia should still be able to read perfectly, or a gifted kid with depression should just get over it, because they're "smart enough." Please don't think this is just a "character issue," or tell your son that he needs to just suck it up and get it done. And I wouldn't tell him that math only gets harder from this point forward, because (a) that could make him feel totally hopeless, and (b) it may not be true — many VSLs who struggle mightily with the logical/linear methods of algebra find that calculus is much easier and more intuitive for them. My DH is terrible at arithmetic and always struggled with algebra, but calculus is a piece of cake for him.

 

But the real problem is his attitude. I guess he told his father that he shouldn't have to do highschool work in middle school. That none of his friends at public school have to do this. Which is true..his friends in public school are average students at best and not in honors classes, not taking academic electives, etc. But my son is gifted, and has the ability to do more than they do. Plus, money wise, he needs to maximize his chances for scholarships. So he needs to be on an honors track, which in this area means Algebra in 7th grade. And again, if he would really apply himself I think he is more than capable. He just doesn't like it and doesn't want to do it.

You're assuming that the only problems here are laziness, bad attitude, and lack of trying — but what if there's more to it? My DH has an IQ of 162, and algebra nearly killed him. My 8th grader still struggles with the simplest, most basic parts of algebra — and yet last year, when he did an online math class taught by a Russian mathematician who really "gets" gifted/dyslexic/VSL kids (and therefore taught in a very visual, whole-to-parts way), this 13 yo 7th grader was graphing complex functions with imaginary numbers in 4 dimensions. I was pulling extra practice problems for him out of a Precalc text and he was really enjoying it even though he was working his butt off. Does that mean he's just being "lazy" or doesn't want to work hard when he's practically in tears over an algebra problem that seems totally "easy" and obvious to me? No, it just means that his brain doesn't work the same way mine does.

 

Katie, can you think of anything that's really difficult for you that other people find easy? For example, I'm an extreme linear/logical type thinker and I have terrible spatial skills — no sense of direction, great difficulty visualizing things in three dimensions, difficulty understanding 3-dimensional mechanical processes, etc. I always scored in the top 1% on the verbal and mathematical parts of IQ tests, but totally bombed the spatial stuff (assemble the unfolded geometric shape and tell where the dot ends up; tell which way the gear rotates on a large mechanical contraption if the rope at the other end is pulled, etc.) Seriously, I would be in the bottom 20% on those sections. My IQ is irrelevant; I just find it incredibly difficult and frustrating to do those kinds of tasks. If schools required classes in visual/spatial reasoning, I would have been one of the kids sitting in the back of the room in tears, being accused of being lazy and not trying hard enough, because surely being highly gifted should "more than make up for it."

 

It doesn't really matter what other gifted 7th graders in your district are capable of doing; all that matters is what your son is capable of doing, right now at this point in time. If you're telling him that he should be perfectly capable of doing something that in fact he's really genuinely struggling with, I'm not surprised that he would complain to his dad that he shouldn't have to do HS work in 7th grade. What are the alternatives? Agree that he's lazy, when he's not? Accept that he's just "too stupid" for algebra? The only response that doesn't make him feel like cr@p about himself is that he's not ready for the work. The other alternative, which has probably never occurred to him, is that the material isn't being taught in a way he understands.

 

I was a beta tester for Kinetic Books prealgebra & algebra. I think it's an excellent program, but I think the problem sets are more difficult than some of the other algebra programs (Jacobs, TT, MUS), and I think that the conceptual explanations are not as good as they should be. Conceptual understanding is critical for VSLs, which is one of the reasons I ultimately chose not to use the programs with DS. What programs did your son use for 1st-6th? If he didn't get a really solid conceptual foundation in the earlier grades, I wouldn't be at all surprised that a VSL 7th grader would struggle with KB algebra. Would you consider something lighter for this year? Math-U-See's Algebra starts right off with graphing functions, which I think helps VSL kids "see" equations better, and the problem sets are pretty gentle. A program with good conceptual explanations and "light" problem sets may provide a better foundation that the reverse — challenging problem sets don't do much good if the student doesn't get the concepts. You might also look at the Crewton Ramone math site; I find his explanations much more conceptual and visual/spatial than Khan Academy.

 

Jackie

Edited October 28, 2012 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

I need to crack down on him showing his work more neatly, but honestly, half the time it is that he read the question wrong...wondering how much of that is careless and how much is the learning disability.

Translating from words to pictures to numbers (and back again) leaves lots of room for error. Is there a foreign language that you know a little bit of, but aren't remotely fluent in? Now imagine trying to teach yourself calculus from a text written in that language — that's what your son is doing. If you can sit with him and help him translate the words into concepts and numbers, I bet that will help a lot.

 

Jackie

[elegantlion]

I'm doing algebra with a VSL kid as well. It's our biggest struggle this year.

 

Not a very scientific opinion, but I think the teen brain fires some weird synapses when doing algebra. Ds will blurt out the most random comments, things that just pop into his head while he's working. It was a hoot last year.

 

Part of my problem is trying to teach linear while my ds needs the big picture. We've had some breakthroughs this year, and part of it is because ds realizes most career options he wants requires higher math. He's still getting frustrated, but it's different.

 

Part of the issue for him is that many of the equations he's doing are simple for him. He can figure out the answer is some way his brain works, but the process of solving the equation "properly" still stump him.

 

He teased me last year that he should just start with calculus or pre-calc and learn algebra that way. I have a few pre-calc books (thrift store finds) and I'm going to challenge him to try that at some point this year.

 

We're getting ready to start Udacity's Physics program in a few weeks. They use some trig, which is explained in the videos. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the catalyst in helping ds really see math work in real life.

 

One thing we are doing is having ds use graph paper and write out the equations in a fine tip marker. I also am making him write larger than normal. So, he's more focused on the problem than the neatness of his writing (which has been a challenge).

 

I totally get the frustration issue. As Jackie said, it's like speaking to someone in English and they only understand Klingon or something.

[Corraleno]

He teased me last year that he should just start with calculus or pre-calc and learn algebra that way. I have a few pre-calc books (thrift store finds) and I'm going to challenge him to try that at some point this year.

I'm sooo bummed that the guy who taught the math class DS took last year isn't doing online classes anymore. This is basically the approach he took — he would start with a concept (functions), and through a sort of Socratic/guided discovery approach, he would lead the kids into deeper and deeper concepts. Having started with a simple definition of a function in the first class, within a few weeks he had them doing precalc and even higher level problems, working with complex numbers and graphing in multiple dimensions. He had them derive the quadratic formula from scratch, and all kinds of cool stuff. And it was all VERY visual — he made them draw everything on the class virtual white board. If they could get the right answer but couldn't draw it, then they didn't understand it. It was exactly the kind of teaching DS needs, and I don't know of any other person or program that teaches like that. :crying:

 

Jackie

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[elegantlion]

I'm sooo bummed that the guy who taught the math class DS took last year isn't doing online classes anymore. This is basically the approach he took — he would start with a concept (functions), and through a sort of Socratic/guided discovery approach, he would lead the kids into deeper and deeper concepts. Having started with a simple definition of a function in the first class, within a few weeks he had them doing precalc and even higher level problems, working with complex numbers and graphing in multiple dimensions. He had them derive the quadratic formula from scratch, and all kinds of cool stuff. And it was all VERY visual — he made them draw everything on the class virtual white board. If they could get the right answer but couldn't draw it, then they didn't understand it. It was exactly the kind of teaching DS needs, and I don't know of any other person or program that teaches like that. :crying:

 

Jackie

 

I wish I thought more mathematically. My knowledge caps out at Alg II and I learn well in the linear mode.

 

I

 

 

Some things to consider:

 

--And regardless of what I said above, I would not, in pursuit of what's the norm for scholarship competitiveness in your area, push a child through math simply to keep up with other kids. Mastering algebra (and algebra II) is just too important. Even more important is your child's sense of self-worth and confidence in his ability to do math. If he's struggling with LD issues that make algebra I particularly difficult, you will be doing him a massive disservice if you push him through it without understanding or with a loss of confidence. We came dangerously close to this point, so I'm telling you this from experience: it's not worth it, to say that he has "done" algebra in 7th grade, if he is frustrated, confused, and feels like it's his fault that he's not succeeding.

 

:iagree: We started algebra in 7th. DS was begging to do algebra and he was there in the math sequence. We had a horrid 7th grade year due to life, so we continued with it in 8th. We made it partially through algebra and switched programs at the end of last year. I should have stayed doing what we were started in 7th, which was LOF. So here we are in 9th and still doing algebra (said through gritted teeth). We're doing accelerated review through the beginning segments and hopefully starting geometry by the end of the year. However, there was no sense pushing him without the understanding.

 

Three areas that we covered again this year were fractions, decimals, and negative numbers. Those three areas were tripping him up more than the complexity of the algebra.

[Corraleno]

There's so much to juggle, and for gifted kids with LDs it's the often first time they have to move from being able to work things out in their heads to keeping track of multi-step problems, plus and minus signs, etc. on paper. For a kid with coding issues, managing all this is a gigantic problem.

Three areas that we covered again this year were fractions, decimals, and negative numbers. Those three areas were tripping him up more than the complexity of the algebra.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

OP, I suspect that these are the KEY problems you are dealing with. It's often NOT the deep, abstract, conceptual issues that these kids have problems with (assuming they're taught in a "language" the student understands) — its juggling all the piddly little details when they have serious working memory deficits for exactly these sorts of things. Understanding complex numbers and 4-dimensional graphing? No problem. Remembering which signs go with which numbers (especially when they're "switching sides," subtracting a negative, etc.), or remembering to account for every factor in every step, with no number "left behind"? Big problems!

 

He needs:

(1) a program that presents the concepts and the "big picture" in a way he understands;

(2) help with managing the details so that he doesn't make the sort of simple errors you are chalking up to carelessness; and

(3) the knowledge that you are on his side and there to help him, not just to tell him that he "should" be capable of something he's really struggling with.

 

Honestly, once these kids "get it," they often take off and more than make up for any delays in earlier grades. Instead of worrying about where he "should' be, if you focus on where he is, and what he needs to move forward, you'll be surprised where he ends up.

 

Jackie

Edited October 28, 2012 by Corraleno

[PeterPan]

I don't know if it will work for you but this is what I did with my careless ds when he did pre-algebra last year. I told him that he was ahead in math and that I didn't actually care if he learned an ounce of math this year because we could redo it next year with no shame. What I did care about was that he learned to copy his problems carefully, carefully work the problems and check his work. Then I gave him incentives for less than 2/3 wrong per day (careless error--conceptual errors he still go the incentive but we spent time reteaching). I made him redo anything he got wrong (sometimes during screen time.)

 

 

 

This doesn't necessarily fit a dc with SN. It's making punitive something that's a disability for them and ignoring what they actually do surprisingly well (work mentally). Also, I would take issue with the suggestion that all this is merely a ploy to get mom's attention. Another punitive take with a SN kid. Could be something much more simple, like that he really doesn't KNOW his negative numbers quite as well as you think. ;) What did he do for pre-algebra? If he did it with a different program or a non-standard mix of things, he may be having a really bumpy transition or may not be adequately prepared. Again, that's a SN thing. Sometimes they need to see it more ways before all the connections are made.

 

And yes, as Jackie said, it's poppycock to say IQ balances out SN. All it really does is make the incongruities all the more flabbergasting.

 

Math at the beginning of the year, as in the first 6-9 weeks of a curriculum is ALL REVIEW. That's just standard in curriculum. If he's having a hard time, it means his background isn't there. My dd has some issues plus a plenty bright IQ, and the way I teach her is to keep the basics stuff EASY but bring stuff in on the side that stretches her and teaches her to her IQ. So she does TT at a level that keeps it constantly easy. Her confidence has shot up and her computation speed has improved quite a bit (visibly and with standardized testing). Then I'm doing the BJU math with her (just the C level problems and Dominion Math) to get the more challenging stuff. That way she gets Mom time too.

 

My theology tells me kids are sinners and prone to do bad. My heart shows me that kids at this age want to please and that when something isn't going right it's our deal. So I don't know what he did for pre-algebra, but if the algebra isn't clicking, that's what I would be asking.

[ktgrok]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

OP, I suspect that these are the KEY problems you are dealing with. It's often NOT the deep, abstract, conceptual issues that these kids have problems with (assuming they're taught in a "language" the student understands) — its juggling all the piddly little details when they have serious working memory deficits for exactly these sorts of things. Understanding complex numbers and 4-dimensional graphing? No problem. Remembering which signs go with which numbers (especially when they're "switching sides," subtracting a negative, etc.), or remembering to account for every factor in every step, with no number "left behind"? Big problems!

 

He needs:

(1) a program that presents the concepts and the "big picture" in a way he understands;

(2) help with managing the details so that he doesn't make the sort of simple errors you are chalking up to carelessness; and

(3) the knowledge that you are on his side and there to help him, not just to tell him that he "should" be capable of something he's really struggling with.

 

Honestly, once these kids "get it," they often take off and more than make up for any delays in earlier grades. Instead of worrying about where he "should' be, if you focus on where he is, and what he needs to move forward, you'll be surprised where he ends up.

 

Jackie

 

 

Thank you, and everyone who said kind of the same thing. You are right. Just because he seems to grasp the concept quickly doesn't mean the other parts are not hard. And they are. I need to remember that. He needs to figure out how to make it work, but I do need to have sympathy and help him strategize.

 

For those saying a more conceptual approach might help..can you give me some suggestions? I HATE to have wasted the 80 dollars on KB, but I would hate to make him more and more frustrated even more. (argh...already did that with Spanish this year...that was almost 100 dollars down the drain, but he is doing much better wiht the more visual program we switched to.)

 

Oh, and I went and apologized to him, and told him that I do understand that this is hard for him, and I will try to do what it takes to make it better, as long as he agrees to work hard. He did say he finds the whole subject confusing. He did Math Mammoth for 5th and 6th and did well. Maybe a switch IS what we need. Math U See isn't cheap, but we are selling my late MIL's house next week, so have some money coming in..i guess now is the time to change if we are going to change. Any other suggestions?

Edited October 28, 2012 by ktgrok

[PeterPan]

Did KB have a placement test? That's where I would start. Backing up might let him get more confident. If he only got through MM6, he might need to go through a pre-algebra course.

[ktgrok]

Did KB have a placement test? That's where I would start. Backing up might let him get more confident. If he only got through MM6, he might need to go through a pre-algebra course.

 

I just found it. And looking at it, he probably is not ready...mainly in the issue of negative numbers. I knew he had some areas he was going to be challenged in, but figured that he was smart, and a challenge would be good. I did NOT consider that dealing with the signs, the detail, etc would be challenging on its own. I figured he could quickly review negative numbers (we finished with them, but rushed through it, at the end of last year) and be ready to move on. But he is struggling more than I realized.

 

I just watched the sample video for MUS pre algebra. That is exactly what he needs I think.

 

Crap.

 

I don't WANNA go back to pre algebra, and deal with my vice principal sister giving me crap about how the other honors students are taking Algebra in 7th,a nd he will be behind, blah blah blah.

 

I don't WANNA spend more money.

 

I don't WANNA tell my husband we need to spend more money.

 

I don't WANNA learn a new program right now.

 

poop.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[wapiti]

So he needs to be on an honors track, which in this area means Algebra in 7th grade.

 

I have gone round and round in my own mind, and on another thread, about this question, algebra 1 in 7th vs 8th for advanced math students with regard to college admissions. From what I read, I *think* I have concluded that for college admissions purposes, only those kids likely to apply to tippy-top schools for STEM fields (e.g. MIT) would need the edge of having taken AP Calc BC junior year (if anyone has seen otherwise, please pipe in), and even then, I'd like to know the percentage of such accepted applicants who indeed had calc junior year. Personally, I would be surprised if, for other schools, calc jr vs sr year has any influence whatsoever on scholarships - maybe this is a question for the high school or college boards.

 

To take calc senior year, algebra 1 in 8th grade is sufficient. AFAIK, most high schools do not offer math beyond AP Calc BC anyway (thinking out loud, in these districts where "honors students" take algebra 1 in 7th grade, are there many taking math at local colleges senior year after having taken calc junior year? I admit I don't know what is done here; our district has gifted kids taking algebra 1 in 7th grade though they seem to monkey around with that a bit).

 

Did KB have a placement test? That's where I would start. Backing up might let him get more confident. If he only got through MM6, he might need to go through a pre-algebra course.

 

:iagree:

 

For those saying a more conceptual approach might help..can you give me some suggestions?

 

Two possible options come to mind: Jacobs Algebra, which starts off gently with prealgebra and is conceptual, and of course the mother of conceptual, big-picture math programs, AoPS, which may have its own fit peculiarities though at least the Prealgebra seems dramatically less tedious than traditional curricula.

[regentrude]

I did not have time to read all replies, but wanted to address the issue of careless mistakes:

This is extremely common around this age. Both my (very mathy) children had a phase at the beginning of algebra when they made countless careless mistakes, especially with signs (you mention negative numbers as a problem: does he not "get" it, or does he make careless errors?). What helped was to write on graph paper, and to use colored pencils for the signs.

For both of my kids, it was a question of maturity, and the issues resolved themselves with time and patience and persistent correcting. So, I'd consider this entirely normal.

I also think that few students that age are capable of teaching themselves math independently from a curriculum; most require quite a bit of interaction with a teacher or parent.

Edited October 28, 2012 by regentrude

[wapiti]

I just found it. And looking at it, he probably is not ready...mainly in the issue of negative numbers. I knew he had some areas he was going to be challenged in, but figured that he was smart, and a challenge would be good. I did NOT consider that dealing with the signs, the detail, etc would be challenging on its own. I figured he could quickly review negative numbers (we finished with them, but rushed through it, at the end of last year) and be ready to move on. But he is struggling more than I realized.

 

Why not review negative numbers again? It shouldn't take long - just a couple days, right?

[Corraleno]

I don't WANNA go back to pre algebra, and deal with my vice principal sister giving me crap about how the other honors students are taking Algebra in 7th,a nd he will be behind, blah blah blah.

Actually I would not recommend doing MUS prealgebra. IMO it's mostly a grab-bag of misc. topics that don't get covered in Alpha through Zeta, because of MUS's one-topic-per-year approach. (I doubt that your DS really needs to spend 2 entire weeks, out of 30, on converting from Celsius to Fahrenheit.) MUS algebra is a very gentle introduction to algebra that covers a lot of the same material that most prealgebra prgrams do — and so does Math Mammoth. I really doubt that you'd need a separate prealgebra program between MM and MUS.

 

Also, I really don't like the way MUS prealgebra covers negative numbers — no number line??? :confused: I think MM6 actually does a much better job of it, and at least in Algebra I, Steve Demme uses a number line. I would have your DS do MUS Algebra, plus add in some of the relevant pages from MM6. Reprinting specific MM6 lessons is exactly what I do with DS when he seems like he's struggling with the "simple" things like fractions/decimals/integers.

 

Also, have a look at the Crewton Ramone math site. He's a bit "quirky," lol, but he teaches the same basic system that Steve Demme does (Mortensen). Steve Demme was originally trained as a Mortensen Math salesman, but then decided to start his own business teaching the same system under a different name. What MUS does have, though, that Crewton Ramone/Mortensen Math don't, is a very simple, straightforward, well-organized, open-and-go version of the program. But Crewton's website has great videos and the subscription is fairly cheap. (BTW, Crewton Ramone is not his real name. :D )

 

(ETA: I second Doodler's suggestion of Hands-On Equations. There's an iPad app, if you don't want to spring for the physical system & DVD.)

 

I don't WANNA spend more money.

I don't WANNA tell my husband we need to spend more money.

I don't WANNA learn a new program right now.

Don't forget that you can resell MUS Algebra, and get a reasonable chunk of your money back. And you don't really need to "learn" the program, because it comes with videos; Steve teaches it.

 

Jackie

Edited October 28, 2012 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

...and of course the mother of conceptual, big-picture math programs, AoPS, which may have its own fit peculiarities though at least the Prealgebra seems dramatically less tedious than traditional curricula.

The thing that makes me so sad about AOPS is that it's exactly the sort of highly conceptual, big picture approach that would work brilliantly with dyslexic VSL kids — but the format itself is a dyslexic's worst nightmare! The pages are crammed with text, it's extremely visually busy, with tiny margins, no white space, very few illustrations, etc. I tried AOPS with my son, and he could definitely do the work — as long as I sat there and read the whole thing to him. I just can't do that every day for the next 5 years. :(

 

Jackie

[MomatHWTK]

This site has free short review videos and quizzes:

http://www.phschool.com/webcodes10/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.gotoWebCode&wcprefix=adk&wcsuffix=0099

[regentrude]

The thing that makes me so sad about AOPS is that it's exactly the sort of highly conceptual, big picture approach that would work brilliantly with dyslexic VSL kids — but the format itself is a dyslexic's worst nightmare! The pages are crammed with text, it's extremely visually busy, with tiny margins, no white space, very few illustrations, etc. I tried AOPS with my son, and he could definitely do the work — as long as I sat there and read the whole thing to him. I just can't do that every day for the next 5 years. :(

 

Jackie

 

Jackie,

would taking the AoPS online classes work, as opposed to studying with the books?

[ktgrok]

The thing that makes me so sad about AOPS is that it's exactly the sort of highly conceptual, big picture approach that would work brilliantly with dyslexic VSL kids — but the format itself is a dyslexic's worst nightmare! The pages are crammed with text, it's extremely visually busy, with tiny margins, no white space, very few illustrations, etc. I tried AOPS with my son, and he could definitely do the work — as long as I sat there and read the whole thing to him. I just can't do that every day for the next 5 years. :(

 

Jackie

 

I agree totally.

[ktgrok]

I did not have time to read all replies, but wanted to address the issue of careless mistakes:

This is extremely common around this age. Both my (very mathy) children had a phase at the beginning of algebra when they made countless careless mistakes, especially with signs (you mention negative numbers as a problem: does he not "get" it, or does he make careless errors?). What helped was to write on graph paper, and to use colored pencils for the signs.

For both of my kids, it was a question of maturity, and the issues resolved themselves with time and patience and persistent correcting. So, I'd consider this entirely normal.

I also think that few students that age are capable of teaching themselves math independently from a curriculum; most require quite a bit of interaction with a teacher or parent.

 

Thanks. We will try that, but he really doesn't GET negative numbers and their manipulation. He just doesn't. We've done Kahn last year, did the MM pages..still doesn't get them.

[ktgrok]

Why not review negative numbers again? It shouldn't take long - just a couple days, right?

 

Ha! That's what I thought. Sadly, no..he needs a better understanding and more practice I think. Kinetic Books DID go over negative numbers at the beginning...it wasn't enough.

[ktgrok]

Actually I would not recommend doing MUS prealgebra. IMO it's mostly a grab-bag of misc. topics that don't get covered in Alpha through Zeta, because of MUS's one-topic-per-year approach. (I doubt that your DS really needs to spend 2 entire weeks, out of 30, on converting from Celsius to Fahrenheit.) MUS algebra is a very gentle introduction to algebra that covers a lot of the same material that most prealgebra prgrams do — and so does Math Mammoth. I really doubt that you'd need a separate prealgebra program between MM and MUS.

 

Also, I really don't like the way MUS prealgebra covers negative numbers — no number line??? :confused: I think MM6 actually does a much better job of it, and at least in Algebra I, Steve Demme uses a number line. I would have your DS do MUS Algebra, plus add in some of the relevant pages from MM6. Reprinting specific MM6 lessons is exactly what I do with DS when he seems like he's struggling with the "simple" things like fractions/decimals/integers.

 

Also, have a look at the Crewton Ramone math site. He's a bit "quirky," lol, but he teaches the same basic system that Steve Demme does (Mortensen). Steve Demme was originally trained as a Mortensen Math salesman, but then decided to start his own business teaching the same system under a different name. What MUS does have, though, that Crewton Ramone/Mortensen Math don't, is a very simple, straightforward, well-organized, open-and-go version of the program. But Crewton's website has great videos and the subscription is fairly cheap. (BTW, Crewton Ramone is not his real name. :D )

 

(ETA: I second Doodler's suggestion of Hands-On Equations. There's an iPad app, if you don't want to spring for the physical system & DVD.)

 

 

Don't forget that you can resell MUS Algebra, and get a reasonable chunk of your money back. And you don't really need to "learn" the program, because it comes with videos; Steve teaches it.

 

Jackie

 

Thanks. Would you stick with this recommendation if the student in question couldn't pass the placement test? Cause he can't.

[wapiti]

The thing that makes me so sad about AOPS is that it's exactly the sort of highly conceptual, big picture approach that would work brilliantly with dyslexic VSL kids — but the format itself is a dyslexic's worst nightmare! The pages are crammed with text, it's extremely visually busy, with tiny margins, no white space, very few illustrations, etc. I tried AOPS with my son, and he could definitely do the work — as long as I sat there and read the whole thing to him. I just can't do that every day for the next 5 years. :(

 

Jackie

 

I think the most difficult aspect of the format for dyslexics would be reading the text portions of the lesson problem solutions. It seems to me that's a very linear activity. I usually skim over them and point out to ds anything that he didn't get from doing the problems, any special "rules" or notes, if they solved it a different way, etc. It usually doesn't take us long at all, because most stuff in the solutions he learned while doing the problems. I imagine that reading more wordy problems could occasionally be an issue for a dyslexic; it seems like some of them are deliberately worded differently from others in order to teach some little thing.

 

Otherwise, I'm happy that it's mostly black and white, and I think it's far superior to the layout of typical modern PS texts, which are often visually nauseating. I really like the font.

 

Ds9 has handwriting issues, and so far, for the non-word problems, I've been writing out the problem on paper for him with room for him to work below. For his situation, I'd like a workbook :tongue_smilie: but I really feel AoPS is best for him for so many reasons that I'll do whatever I need to make it work.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[PeterPan]

I just found it. And looking at it, he probably is not ready...mainly in the issue of negative numbers. I knew he had some areas he was going to be challenged in, but figured that he was smart, and a challenge would be good. I did NOT consider that dealing with the signs, the detail, etc would be challenging on its own. I figured he could quickly review negative numbers (we finished with them, but rushed through it, at the end of last year) and be ready to move on. But he is struggling more than I realized.

 

I just watched the sample video for MUS pre algebra. That is exactly what he needs I think.

 

Crap.

 

I don't WANNA go back to pre algebra, and deal with my vice principal sister giving me crap about how the other honors students are taking Algebra in 7th,a nd he will be behind, blah blah blah.

 

I don't WANNA spend more money.

 

I don't WANNA tell my husband we need to spend more money.

 

I don't WANNA learn a new program right now.

 

poop.

 

Katie, TT was AWESOME for my dd this past year. We did the pre-algebra. It was easy enough for her that she did 2 lessons a day. She came out of it CONFIDENT and LIGHTNING FAST. My dd can understand something but not be fast at it. We had been doing MM6 when we switched over to TT pre-algebra. It was SUCH a good change for us. The humor, the short lessons, the mild spiral without so much that it's brain-sucking, it was just enough to get her nailing some of this stuff, to get it on autopilot. No, some kids are not going to do well if they go into algebra without having the other stuff be on autopilot. It's honestly astounding to watch my dd do math now, because she has become so math intuitive and snappy with TT. *Because* it's on the computer and multiple choice, it really caters to the SN tendency toward mental math.

 

I assume TT has a generous return policy. I didn't need to return it. Resale on it is extremely strong.

 

Ok, I'll give you a tip of the day. I'm giving you very different advice from Doodler, even though we're basically at the same place (work with the kid and the way his brain thinks). When my dd hits something she doesn't know, I get this horrible HUH? and she shuts down. So by putting her in something *easy* I get around the huh? thing. She has the ability to do harder stuff, but that has to be done with me. And for her, understanding things didn't make them automatic. I really don't know WHAT happened with TT that made things start clicking. All I know is that it did. It was mostly stuff we had covered before, but all these lightbulbs were going off and connectors being made. The Eides have this thing in their Dyslexic Advantage book where the talk about mini-columns in the brain and the circuitous routes things take to make the neural connections of learning and that that's WHY it takes so long and so many exposures before things click (hence the virtue of spiral). And along the way, while it's taking that crazy long route between widely spaced columns, it makes other connections and bumps other things. So you get the TT guy telling these crazy stories about King George's feet and this and that and all these crazy stories, and I think it's facilitating that mental bumping.

 

Whatever. TT for us has been golden in a way I never expected. To me it's a can't lose. Ok, you could lose $30 off your resale or shipping to return it. And spit on your SIL. Oh, Thanksgiving is coming. Be nice and put in earplugs and start passing the cranberry sauce. What your kid is doing today is no indicator of what he'll be doing a year from now. Numerous kids on the hs board did TT algebra 1 and algebra 2 in a year. Like I said, those lessons are SHORT. When things click, they CLICK. You can't guess what backing up, letting him get faster, letting him get more confident might do. But that's a personality thing. for my kid it was easy but in context and narrative. For somebody else's kid, sounds like harder and in context is the way to go. My kid wilts with that. She has this Huh? and flop kind of personality. So just know your kid and sort it out. But don't listen to the detractors. If you get this step sorted out, the rest will come with time.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Corraleno]

Thanks. Would you stick with this recommendation if the student in question couldn't pass the placement test? Cause he can't.

Hmmm... the "Prealgebra Competency Exam" on the website (I assume that's what he took?) seems more difficult that the "Algebra Readiness Test" in the front of the Algebra I book I have. Maybe they want to encourage you to buy the Prealgebra text. :tongue_smilie:

 

My DS did MM6, and when I ordered MUS Prealgebra, I ended up sending it back and exchanging it for Algebra, because it seemed like he'd already covered the majority of it in MM. Last year, he literally did the first half of MUS Algebra (lessons 6-15) in a weekend. He was taking the online math class I mentioned above, and it was moving really quickly, so I wanted to give him a little more reinforcement & background on functions. He didn't do all the problem sets, obviously, but he could do the "honors" problems easily, and then we jumped to the last chapter, on graphing parabolas & hyperbolas, because that's what his class did the next day.

 

Anyway, if your DS's main problem is negative numbers, I would go through that part of MM again, and see if the reason it didn't stick is because he just skimmed/rushed through it at the end of the year without really understanding it, or because he really just doesn't get the way she teaches it. Then maybe you can tease out what the specific issues are. Does he need more visuals? More practice? Does he need to back up even more? Does he understand functions & graphing?

 

If you're looking for a cheaper option, and don't mind sitting with him, you could try to pick up a cheap used copy of Jacobs. It does start slowly, with a lot of basic prealgebra type review. Or give it a try with MUS Prealgebra and just plan to move quickly through the parts he knows. You can recoup most of the cost when you sell it, because only the student book is consumable.

 

I will say that my DS's experience with TT was the opposite of Elizabeth's DD's experience — after being initially thrilled with the "ease" of it, he quickly came to hate the spiral nature of it, and the fact that there were only a few problems on the new topic in each lesson, with the majority of the problems being review. But, if your son really needs that kind of review, it might work really well. Thinkwell is another video-based prealgebra option.

 

It's such a crapshoot with these kids — and such an expensive crapshoot at that! I've bought, and still own, pretty much every math program out there, not to mention a dozen or more LA programs, science texts, etc. Things that sound perfect for a "visual spatial learner" may totally bomb because of too much review/not enough review/poor format/whatever. Something that sounds perfect for a kid who needs a spiral program may totally bomb for other reasons that have nothing to do with spiral-vs-mastery. Unfortunately, it really is just a matter of trial & error until you find the thing that clicks. Luckily, most math programs have excellent resale value!

 

Jackie

[ktgrok]

Katie, TT was AWESOME for my dd this past year. We did the pre-algebra. It was easy enough for her that she did 2 lessons a day. She came out of it CONFIDENT and LIGHTNING FAST. My dd can understand something but not be fast at it. We had been doing MM6 when we switched over to TT pre-algebra. It was SUCH a good change for us. The humor, the short lessons, the mild spiral without so much that it's brain-sucking, it was just enough to get her nailing some of this stuff, to get it on autopilot. No, some kids are not going to do well if they go into algebra without having the other stuff be on autopilot. It's honestly astounding to watch my dd do math now, because she has become so math intuitive and snappy with TT. *Because* it's on the computer and multiple choice, it really caters to the SN tendency toward mental math.

 

I assume TT has a generous return policy. I didn't need to return it. Resale on it is extremely strong.

 

Ok, I'll give you a tip of the day. I'm giving you very different advice from Doodler, even though we're basically at the same place (work with the kid and the way his brain thinks). When my dd hits something she doesn't know, I get this horrible HUH? and she shuts down. So by putting her in something *easy* I get around the huh? thing. She has the ability to do harder stuff, but that has to be done with me. And for her, understanding things didn't make them automatic. I really don't know WHAT happened with TT that made things start clicking. All I know is that it did. It was mostly stuff we had covered before, but all these lightbulbs were going off and connectors being made. The Eides have this thing in their Dyslexic Advantage book where the talk about mini-columns in the brain and the circuitous routes things take to make the neural connections of learning and that that's WHY it takes so long and so many exposures before things click (hence the virtue of spiral). And along the way, while it's taking that crazy long route between widely spaced columns, it makes other connections and bumps other things. So you get the TT guy telling these crazy stories about King George's feet and this and that and all these crazy stories, and I think it's facilitating that mental bumping.

 

Whatever. TT for us has been golden in a way I never expected. To me it's a can't lose. Ok, you could lose $30 off your resale or shipping to return it. And spit on your SIL. Oh, Thanksgiving is coming. Be nice and put in earplugs and start passing the cranberry sauce. What your kid is doing today is no indicator of what he'll be doing a year from now. Numerous kids on the hs board did TT algebra 1 and algebra 2 in a year. Like I said, those lessons are SHORT. When things click, they CLICK. You can't guess what backing up, letting him get faster, letting him get more confident might do. But that's a personality thing. for my kid it was easy but in context and narrative. For somebody else's kid, sounds like harder and in context is the way to go. My kid wilts with that. She has this Huh? and flop kind of personality. So just know your kid and sort it out. But don't listen to the detractors. If you get this step sorted out, the rest will come with time.

 

Ok, first of all, I laughed hard at your "spit on your SIL" thing. And she actually is my sister...not sure if I put that in the original post...I might have been subconciously trying to distance my relationship with her, lol. She's so...hard...to deal with. Like a dog with a bone. Ugh. But that isn't important, just annoying.

 

And my kid is like yours...too hard and he goes "huh" and then flops. And yes, he would understand at the time, but it didn't become automatic, and then he forgets, and has to figure it out all over again. Maybe that is it..he wasn't understanding, he was figuring it out. And having to RE figure it now is just not working for him. He actually said he needs easier stuff, and that isn't like him. I'll check out TT too, thanks.

[elegantlion]

This was not advice as in, "Do this," as much as another angle to consider -- the more different ways to look at an issue, the better, for me at least. I like to consider it from all sides, and this includes moving away from the mainstream advice to back up as everyone else has suggested. It was also intended more for Paula's son, who has spent a year on algebra I and is still having trouble in a way that sounds like my dd, with that tantalizing remark to his mom that she should give him higher level math.

 

The Hands-On Equations, Marilyn Burns, and James Tanton links are for a child who needs more conceptual understanding -- and perhaps more of a sense of context -- before practicing computations and getting them automatic.

 

Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time around.

 

Thanks, I started looking into those tonight.

[Corraleno]

Thanks. We will try that, but he really doesn't GET negative numbers and their manipulation. He just doesn't. We've done Kahn last year, did the MM pages..still doesn't get them.

Have a look at Muggins Math's "Prealgebra for Visual Learners." It's hard to link directly, but if you scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you can click the video link, and see if that sort of explanation of negative numbers helps your DS.

 

Jackie

[PeterPan]

Ok, first of all, I laughed hard at your "spit on your SIL" thing. And she actually is my sister...not sure if I put that in the original post...I might have been subconciously trying to distance my relationship with her, lol. She's so...hard...to deal with. Like a dog with a bone. Ugh. But that isn't important, just annoying.

 

And my kid is like yours...too hard and he goes "huh" and then flops. And yes, he would understand at the time, but it didn't become automatic, and then he forgets, and has to figure it out all over again. Maybe that is it..he wasn't understanding, he was figuring it out. And having to RE figure it now is just not working for him. He actually said he needs easier stuff, and that isn't like him. I'll check out TT too, thanks.

 

Bingo, that's what you have to sort out. For a kid who needs easier work that just lets them get really GOOD at it and confident and fast, TT is a miracle. It was Creekland's posts who finally helped me clue into this, that not everything has to be hard to be worthwhile. I don't think SN kids are all alike on this (spiral vs. understand your way into proficiency). Nuts, I'm not even sure I'd describe my dd as a spiral kind of person, but she did enjoy the spiral of Shurley. (short, easy doses, a lot like TT!) It's really individual and you just have to look at your own kid. Like you say, there's a huge difference between conceptually understanding something and having it be so automatic that they can do it in their sleep. Now that my dd can do the stuff in her sleep, the thought process doesn't eat up RAM, meaning it's easier for her to stretch and do more mentally. Maybe that's why she's blossoming? I don't know.

[ktgrok]

Bingo, that's what you have to sort out. For a kid who needs easier work that just lets them get really GOOD at it and confident and fast, TT is a miracle. It was Creekland's posts who finally helped me clue into this, that not everything has to be hard to be worthwhile. I don't think SN kids are all alike on this (spiral vs. understand your way into proficiency). Nuts, I'm not even sure I'd describe my dd as a spiral kind of person, but she did enjoy the spiral of Shurley. (short, easy doses, a lot like TT!) It's really individual and you just have to look at your own kid. Like you say, there's a huge difference between conceptually understanding something and having it be so automatic that they can do it in their sleep. Now that my dd can do the stuff in her sleep, the thought process doesn't eat up RAM, meaning it's easier for her to stretch and do more mentally. Maybe that's why she's blossoming? I don't know.

 

 

Ok, that rings true. He needs the old stuff to be automatic because he has to put so much mental energy into the coding part, and writing it down, remembering steps, etc...so the rest has to be easy for him. Ok, that makes sense. Going to do some placement tests tomorrow and have him look at some demo lessons of MUS and Teaching Textbooks.

[Corraleno]

Have a look at Muggins Math's "Prealgebra for Visual Learners." It's hard to link directly, but if you scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you can click the video link, and see if that sort of explanation of negative numbers helps your DS.

You know what I think I'd do, before investing in a whole new program? I'd use his specific problem with negative numbers as a sort of mini experiment in order to figure out what kind of explanations and presentation help him the most. IOW, look at a dozen different programs and how they explain integers, and see which one gets the biggest "aha!" reaction.

 

For example, the video on the Muggins Math site, as well as MUS Prealgebra, treat negative numbers as a sort of backwards/inside out version of a positive number, and they illustrate it that way. MM also presents it that way a little bit, in the lessons where she uses "dots." The other way of presenting it is as a change of direction, which is what I thought was so brilliant about Maria Miller's explanations. This is also the way it was taught by the Russian guy, and this is what totally clicked with DS. Now, he still has issues with keeping track of the signs (I like Regentrude's idea of writing them in different colors), but conceptually he totally "gets" negative numbers. In fact, he asked why they don't teach subtraction as adding negative numbers right from the start, because it's so much easier to understand that way!

 

So I think if you look at lots of different videos and samples of various math texts and programs, and see which one teaches negative numbers in the way that clicks best with your DS, then you may save yourself a lot of money and trouble buying programs that have worked well for other people's kids. We can each tell you what worked for us, but as you can see from this thread, even kids with fairly similar sets of LDs can respond very differently to the same programs.

 

Jackie

[PeterPan]

Ok, that rings true. He needs the old stuff to be automatic because he has to put so much mental energy into the coding part, and writing it down, remembering steps, etc...so the rest has to be easy for him. Ok, that makes sense. Going to do some placement tests tomorrow and have him look at some demo lessons of MUS and Teaching Textbooks.

 

I also think (and this is just me, sorry to keep rambling and possibly wasting your time) that there is SO much talk about how all these great curricula replace pre-algebra and that 7th grade math is unnecessary, pre-algebra is unnecessary, blah blah, that it actually does some kids a disservice. I've got to tell you, I've got a BJU pre-algebra book, and MM6 is NOT equivalent. I've had LOF and all sorts of stuff. Nuts, the BJU pre-algebra makes my Dolciani pre-algebra look easy.

 

There's a LOT of math between a gr 6 math book and algebra 1, and there's a lot of TIME that was traditionally there to develop PROFICIENCY in things that are SIMPLE but that really need to be automatic. You've got a kid going through his teenage years. My dd isn't so bad now, come to think of it, but a year or two ago I wondered what alien had taken her, lol. She was growing and changing so radically, there was just NOTHING LEFT for unimportant things like math! She'd look at me and say 3+4 is 6. I kid you not. It was incredible. Exasperating. Unbelievable. There's a reason we got so desperate on math, lol.

 

So I think, and this is just me, that the this dissing of math 7 and math 8 as a tradition, as a progression, really CHOPS OUT that opportunity for kids to get those things down cold. Some kids may not need it, but I think some (most? no clue) do. The vogue seems to be skipping that math 7, math 8 stage, and I'm really not sure it's wise (as a general rule or assumption for all kids).

 

MUS is mastery, TT is distinctly spiral. I really have no experience with MUS. The spiral has been unexpectedly beneficial to us. There are people in similar positions who seem to like MUS. TT has a track record of turning out ok test scores with gifted SN kids. I didn't say everyone, just saying I've noticed that *bright* quirky kids who use it seem to be coming out ok. That's how I chose TT. Oh, and I ordered directly from them. They ship super-duper fast. I love Timberdoodle, but that takes SO long to get to us (usually a week or more!) because they're on the west coast. Wherever TT is, they've had both boxes to me super-duper fast. When you're feeling the heat and nervous, that immediacy is awesome. Means you can order today, kill a couple days, and it will be here. :)

Edited October 29, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ok, that rings true. He needs the old stuff to be automatic because he has to put so much mental energy into the coding part, and writing it down, remembering steps, etc...so the rest has to be easy for him. Ok, that makes sense. Going to do some placement tests tomorrow and have him look at some demo lessons of MUS and Teaching Textbooks.

 

BTW, I'd be interested to hear your placement test results. That's really where the rubber meets the road. And those tests will give you a good feel for the curricula too. It's good information.

[PeterPan]

Ok, sorry to bust in again on this, but I was just reading in someone else's post and remembered something. There's a lot of review of basic math with some of these levels (pre-algebra TT, etc.). MUS probably won't do that since it's mastery, but whatever. Anyways, I let her use a calculator. I didn't let her use a calculator if she didn't know how to do it, but I did if she did. There's a point where there are diminishing returns. My dd isn't some computation guru and whiz. Give her something mental, something with a word problem, and she's golden. But to just bog down in division problems and arithmetic because somebody put it in there? Ugh. So pick some battles. Negatives and proficiency with fractions, that carries over into algebra. It's conceptual and has to be there. But don't spend excess time on something he's never going to be good at due to his SN. Give him a calculator and move on. It's part of why she's goes so quickly through the lessons. It's not a problem, because she's testing better than she ever has. So that's something else to consider, that he may be at the stage where it's time to whip out the calculator. In pre-algebra she used it judiciously. This year I basically ahve her use it a lot. She won't when she's faster or has mental shortcuts (the perk of TT, it nurtured that!), but the calculator saves the wear and tear on her brain. She uses a Casion fx-300MS. There may be newer models. It has a couple lines and can enter numbers in with long sequences and parenthesis, let you cursor back to edit, etc. Very nice calculator for this age. Next I'll get her a graphing calculator to let her SEE the patterns and play with graphing. The technology can save wear and tear on the SN kids and let them get moving. It doesn't short circuit learning their facts (at least for my dd), because it's still faster to do it mentally than to push the buttons. Once they get to that point, they actually do more mentally than they used to, and it's self-reinforcing.

[Corraleno]

I also think (and this is just me, sorry to keep rambling and possibly wasting your time) that there is SO much talk about how all these great curricula replace pre-algebra and that 7th grade math is unnecessary, pre-algebra is unnecessary, blah blah, that it actually does some kids a disservice. I've got to tell you, I've got a BJU pre-algebra book, and MM6 is NOT equivalent. I've had LOF and all sorts of stuff. Nuts, the BJU pre-algebra makes my Dolciani pre-algebra look easy.

 

There's a LOT of math between a gr 6 math book and algebra 1, and there's a lot of TIME that was traditionally there to develop PROFICIENCY in things that are SIMPLE but that really need to be automatic. You've got a kid going through his teenage years. My dd isn't so bad now, come to think of it, but a year or two ago I wondered what alien had taken her, lol. She was growing and changing so radically, there was just NOTHING LEFT for unimportant things like math! She'd look at me and say 3+4 is 6. I kid you not. It was incredible. Exasperating. Unbelievable. There's a reason we got so desperate on math, lol.

 

So I think, and this is just me, that the this dissing of math 7 and math 8 as a tradition, as a progression, really CHOPS OUT that opportunity for kids to get those things down cold. Some kids may not need it, but I think some (most? no clue) do. The vogue seems to be skipping that math 7, math 8 stage, and I'm really not sure it's wise (as a general rule or assumption for all kids).

I agree that some kids do need the additional practice to get the level of automaticity you're talking about, and some kids just need the extra time to mature and to be capable of more abstract reasoning. But in many other countries it's standard to start kids in algebra in the equivalent of 6th or 7th grade, and they're not "skipping" huge swaths of math. There really aren't any topics that are considered strictly "prealgebra," so there's no reason that one cannot theoretically go from a strong 6th or 7th grade program to a gentle algebra program.

 

The statement that "there's a LOT of math between a gr 6 math book and algebra 1" really depends on the programs used for 6th and Alg I. One publisher's Prealgebra is another's Math 7, and yet another's Intro to Algebra. For example, MM covers integers and graphing functions in 6th grade, at a level that MUS doesn't approach until Algebra I. MM introduces solving simultaneous equations with 2 variables in 3rd grade, using colored shapes, and teaches Pascal's Triangle in 4th grade — something MUS includes as an "Honors" lesson in Algebra. DS tested into TT Prealgebra after MM5, and found it too easy. I actually emailed TT and asked if he would be missing any key concepts by going directly into Prealgebra, and they told me that, for parents who are using the program "on grade level" and want their kids to start Algebra in 8th, they generally recommend doing TT7 and skipping Prealgebra, but that if my DS tested into Prealgebra to go ahead with that.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that many kids may benefit from a couple of extra years reviewing and solidifying basic concepts before moving into algebra. I just wanted to emphasize that a student who goes from, say, MM or Singapore 6 to a gentle algebra program like Jacobs, MUS, or TT, is not "skipping" anything conceptually.

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

Just a quick comment about this:

 

But in many other countries it's standard to start kids in algebra in the equivalent of 6th or 7th grade, and they're not "skipping" huge swaths of math.

 

Actually, in many other countries, there is not even such thing as "algebra" - just "math". The compartmentalization into these neat one-year packages is pretty unique to the US and in my opinion does the students a grave disservice (algebra is started later to wait for maturity for the most abstract concepts; the compartmentalization causes a lack of built-in review; students can forget content from one year because it is never revisited in the next.)

In my European home country, easier algebra concepts are introduced earlier, intermixed with more practice on fractions, and with geometry. Harder, more abstract algebra concepts are introduced later. For example, proofs of triangle congruency are taught in 6th grade, linear equations in 7th, quadratics not until 9th.

 

The whole problem of "prealgebra" is an artifact of the packaging of "algebra" into a one year chunk; it would be no issue if algebraic concepts were introduced organically in the course of an integrated math class, as maturity of the student permits.

[Corraleno]

The whole problem of "prealgebra" is an artifact of the packaging of "algebra" into a one year chunk; it would be no issue if algebraic concepts were introduced organically in the course of an integrated math class, as maturity of the student permits.

:iagree:

This is one reason I'm such a fan of Math Mammoth, which was written by a European with a math degree instead of a committee of American "education specialists." She really does try to integrate algebraic concepts into younger grades. Singapore is similar.

 

My DH is British, and he's been really perplexed by the way schools here divide up math and science into such discrete, one-per-year chunks. Ironically, the one subject where most elementary and many middle schools here do tend to take an "integrated" approach is history — which they turn into an incoherent mishmash of topics they call "social studies." :glare:

 

Jackie