1GirlTwinBoys Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 We purchased a 4 1/2 month old puppy about 6 weeks ago so he's now 6 months old. Over the course of the last several weeks, he has treated my kids like his litter mates (mostly my boys), by biting and nipping at them. DH and I correct him every time but of course we can't always be there at the exact moment he does something. He will immediately stop if we look at him or say something. He sees us as the Alpha and will never give my children the same respect, I understand that. This is a 50lb puppy by the way, that is very intimidating. He was neutered yesterday and can't get the exercise he needs, so he's completely wearing me out!!! I've raised a male Doberman from the same age before, but this breed is SO MUCH MORE intense with strength and working drive. We keep a pincher collar on him 24/7 and use that for correction. I just don't know how to make him stop playing so rough with my kids.:confused: Please tell me this will stop at some point and when.:001_huh: Any input is so much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I have a male GSD and he is stronger and more dominant than any dog I've owned. He is much more dominant than my MIL's Doberman was. Neutering our dog helped, but he is still a "wild" playmate at 8 years old. TBH, I never have other kids play with our dog. He's too intense and I can't say he wouldn't hurt another child accidentally. I cannot take him to the vet anymore; dh has to do it. He is too strong and I was scratched like nuts the last time and they had to muzzle him. Sorry that probably isn't the best news you could ever hear, but your experience matches mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Our labrador/border collie mix from the shelter ended up being a black German shepherd. We got her at 10 weeks and we've had her for 5 weeks, so she's almost 4 months old now. We are putting her in puppy kindergarten starting this weekend. Training is very important for GSDs. They just get big so quickly and they are dominating dogs, so they have be thoroughly trained. One thing I remember hearing before was if your dog started treating your kids like litter mates, then you need to have the kids do all the feeding of the dog. And they need to make the dog do something before he can get his food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookfiend Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I don't know how you are correcting the biting issue, but for our GSD, we were trained to hold his muzzle closed - firmly, with a slightly uncomfortable squeeze - look him in the eyes and strongly say NO BITING. Also 12-18 months we had to roll him to belly up, straddle over him, get in his face and shout (did this once or twice). That was the dog adolescent year. It took 3 yrs before the rambucous dog phase was over. Then he was the best do EVER! ETA: I was the primary trainer and probably spent 60-90 minutes most days working with him -- Not all at one time, chunked up over the course of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jann in TX Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 My puppy is HUGE! I have had to work hard from day 1 to be his alpha (now I am solidly so). You have to work/play with them daily or they will take things into their own hands--big dogs make big messes! I suggest having a dog trainer come to your home and work with your whole family. Dog training DOES NOT TRAIN THE DOG-- it trains the owners how to work with their dog. Puppy school can help-- but private training is best with a large dog (and a smart dog too!). When our guy tried to puppy play with my youngest I would immediately re-direct the behavior. I made sure I had lots of good options inside and outside (our GSDs are mainly inside). They LOVE raw meaty bones... they keep the pup happy and his need to chew satisfied (I get raw beef neck bones at the local grocery). A good walk is not just a way to burn off energy--it is a way to bond. Our puppy went through a 'play by nipping' phase-- but luckily it did not last long. During this phase I had to spend extra time working with him. Positive reinforcement is much better than negative (pulling on prong collar) or shouting. Have your kids stand next to you and offer the dog a treat if it sits quietly (hopefully you have already taught this behavior). Have your kids feed and care for the dog too-- eventually the dog will see them as an extension of the alpha-- or at least as higher in the pack order. Have your kids give the dog other options of play-- have them kick an old soccer ball around and encourage the dog to play too... if the dog starts nipping or 'bumping' then immediately stop-- say NO--- and begin the activity again-- if he continues then say NO and simply walk away. Begin again later-- he should catch on-- if he plays by YOUR rules it will be a fun time for all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth in MN Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I agree with the above suggestions of having the kids take on roles other than being just playmates. Holding the lead while on a walk and the like. It's also important to feed the dog AFTER the rest of the family is eating. Eating food is a hard-core dominance issue. Wild dogs and wolves eat in pack pecking order - the Alphas first then Betas and so on down to the lowly Omega. If the food for the dog comes somewhere in the middle of the human family meal, it teaches the dog that the humans are higher up in the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in the NH Woods Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 He sees us as the Alpha and will never give my children the same respect, I understand that. Ooh, I wouldn't accept that mind set... in my humble opinion, the dog must learn that he is in the lowest spot on the totem pole. Even with the kids. But it is probably going to take some time. ;) Our GSD is now three years old, and she was a royal terror when she was a puppy. She used to attack the kids when they went sledding, shred their coats, nip them, ugh. She learned that this was not okay, and now respects the kids. I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a pro or GSD breeder for some help. Different folks have different approaches. In our case, when our dog got territorial or crazy with the kids, we had to give her a shake down, then walk away and ignore her for a bit. Also, we cut back on treats and did down stays. Yelling or a loud voice usually made things worse, but shaking a coffee can with a few coins, or physically blocking her gently but firmly pushing her out of the way with my body worked well. I still have to assert my dominance by a calm body block once in awhile when she goes after the vacuum cleaner. Tessa has mellowed out a lot, but she still requires lots of exercise, play, mental stimulation, and companionship. She is very good with visitors who are invited to our home. (We crate her for a little while when someone new visits, then let her out to greet them.) She is very suspicious of strangers when we are hiking, etc., but we got her to be a watch dog, so this isn't a problem for us. She is the smartest, most loyal dog ever, and I love her to bits. You could take filet mignon out of her mouth, crawl in her dog crate with her or take her toys, whatever and she would never growl or snap.. But two things I would appreciate advice for is her dog aggression, and cat harassment. :glare: Please take my advice with a grain of salt, but these are some things that have helped us. I do feel your pain & frustration! Sincerely, Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 My kids were much younger when we got our dogs as puppies, so it was a bit different for us, but I used to spray my hands with bitter apple when I'd get down on the floor with them. My hand and one specific door jam were their main targets. The phase ended pretty quickly! (My dogs are mutts, for the record. GSD/rottie and lab/rottie, so pretty big boys.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I can't see how your dog is interacting, but if it really is nipping like he would do with litter mates then you need to work on bite inhibition. Teach the kids that when he bites they should yelp in a loud, high-pitched way, just like a puppy would do, and go away from him (temporary rejection). This is how dogs learn to moderate their mouth usage naturally with litter mates, and can learn it with people, too. This is ONLY if it's play nipping and rambunctious behavior. This does NOT apply if there is any aggression in the behavior. You have also GOT to find a way to get him more exercise. You've taken on a LOT of dog there. He's bred to run for hours a day. If he doesn't have a fenced yard to run in for part of the day, he needs a minimum of a one hour walking per day. Tired dogs are well behaved dogs. I would put him on the "nothing in life is free" program, with some modifications for having the kids do it. They can feed him and work with him in all ways - as long as he is showing no aggression or food guarding tendencies. If he is, even a little, you endanger the kids by putting them in that role. I don't want to scare you, because the chances are small that he will bite, but anything with teeth can bite (nobody ever believes their dog will bite until it does) and so it's best to be safe, especially with dogs who tend to guard food. Good luck. GSDs are a lot of work, but can be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I agree with the above suggestions of having the kids take on roles other than being just playmates. Holding the lead while on a walk and the like. It's also important to feed the dog AFTER the rest of the family is eating. Eating food is a hard-core dominance issue. Wild dogs and wolves eat in pack pecking order - the Alphas first then Betas and so on down to the lowly Omega. If the food for the dog comes somewhere in the middle of the human family meal, it teaches the dog that the humans are higher up in the pack. :iagree: You can even go as far as to fill the dog food bowl before dinner, put it on the table, and let it sit there while you eat. As people are getting up and leaving the table, THEN the dog gets the food (after obeying a command, usually a sit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCMom Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Well, just so you know where I am coming from, I'm training a working dog puppy right now and I disagree with almost every single thing that every poster has said here. :001_smile: First I suggest you find a trainer ASAP. Puppy Kindergarten, socialization classes, and obedience training (like Jann said it's for you!), basically some form of training is really important. (Using a prong collar will possibly limit trainer choices so if you want to continue using it then I would state that up front to potential trainers.) Second, a puppy needs daily mental stimulation, a huge amount of socialization and a whole lot amount of physical activity. A lot of people mention the physical exercise a puppy needs but not the mental/social. It's just as important. You can google puppy mental stimulation and puppy socialization and get lots of great ideas. We train bite inhibition, not bite avoidance so I'm not much help with that. However, the wired little ACD rescue we have is <9 weeks and he has a perfectly soft mouth; it took about 3 days with no aversives, but we all have the nip marks to prove he didn't come that way, lol. We used a technique similiar to this one Bite Inhibition... I've seen the Nothing In Life Is Free protocol a pp mentioned work very well, though we haven't really used it in years. It refocuses the dog and the people and provides incentives for good behavior. Don't have a good link for it but it is easy to google also. hth, Georgia Edited October 26, 2012 by Georgia in NC added something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GirlTwinBoys Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Thank you so much for taking the time to give all the input.:) I have been working with him all evening and making sure that I reassert my Alpha role. It's my fault for letting it get this far, as I should have stopped this behavior much more quickly than I have. First of all, none of his biting has been aggressive. It's all been in rough house play, like my kids are his litter mates. If it was aggressive behavior he would have already been gone from here. I've been doing a lot of research and have worked wonders in just one evening. It got to the point where I could actually have the kids run and jump around in front of him and he would just lay calmly. Normally, he would be chasing after and nipping/biting. He sees us as the Alpha and will never give my children the same respect, I understand that. Ooh, I wouldn't accept that mind set... in my humble opinion, the dog must learn that he is in the lowest spot on the totem pole. Even with the kids. But it is probably going to take some time. What I meant was that he's not going to take any correction from the kids. That is all going to have to come from me and DH until he DOES actually learn his place at the bottom. I was told this by a German Shepherd trainer. We can't all be the Alpha. We have 3 acres so he is getting tons of exercise. DH plays frisbee with him and works him every evening when he gets home. The kids run and play with him during the day before and after school time. I know he is much better behaved when he's exercised, but he still has to learn that the kids are off limits when it comes to chewing/biting. Again, I really appreciate all the advice and input. I have lot's more research to do. I'm just so amazed at the progress in one evening.:) Edited October 26, 2012 by 1GirlTwinBoys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Well, just so you know where I am coming from, I'm training a working dog puppy right now and I disagree with almost every single thing that every poster has said here. :001_smile: First I suggest you find a trainer ASAP. Puppy Kindergarten, socialization classes, and obedience training (like Jann said it's for you!), basically some form of training is really important. (Using a prong collar will possibly limit trainer choices so if you want to continue using it then I would state that up front to potential trainers.) Second, a puppy needs daily mental stimulation, a huge amount of socialization and a whole lot amount of physical activity. A lot of people mention the physical exercise a puppy needs but not the mental/social. It's just as important. You can google puppy mental stimulation and puppy socialization and get lots of great ideas. We train bite inhibition, not bite avoidance so I'm not much help with that. However, the wired little ACD rescue we have is <9 weeks and he has a perfectly soft mouth; it took about 3 days with no aversives, but we all have the nip marks to prove he didn't come that way, lol. We used a technique similiar to this one Bite Inhibition... I've seen the Nothing In Life Is Free protocol a pp mentioned work very well, though we haven't really used it in years. It refocuses the dog and the people and provides incentives for good behavior. Don't have a good link for it but it is easy to google also. :iagree: This thread is excellent evidence of how horribly misunderstood pack theory/dominance is. I don't mean to offend, but almost all of the advice on this thread that mentions alpha/dominance issues is terribly misguided. IMO you need to wipe your mind clean of all the (wrong) alpha crap mumbo jumbo and start with a totally new attitude. My best advice is to Google Nothing In Life Is Free and start implementing that immediately. And then find a good trainer who uses positive reinforcement and get enrolled in a class. If he's a well-bred GSD then you've got yourself a smart dog. Teach him the right way and he'll amaze you at how fast he learns. Continue along the path of misunderstanding about what alpha/dominance means and you're asking for a disaster. IMHO, of course. Edited October 26, 2012 by Pawz4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Is he treating them like littermates, or is he treating them like sheep? My parents' GSD treats my kids like sheep--he's not ever aggressive with them in any way, but he does constantly try to get us all in the same room, sitting down. When he has everyone where he wants them, he's the most docile dog and lets them do whatever they want to him. But if we're in separate rooms or the wrong room, he's working us, and that sometimes involves nipping. He responds to commands to stop, but it's clear he is frustrated over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GirlTwinBoys Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Is he treating them like littermates, or is he treating them like sheep? No, it's not like he's using a herding instinct, which I understand to be very common & natural with this breed. For example, the dog is only allowed on our main level, not upstairs or downstairs. If the boys come running down the steps and across the floor, he immediately gets a rowdy instinct to chase them and then bite at them. It's normal puppy response, but he's 50lbs of pure strength so this is just completely unacceptable. 8 year old twin boys are going to be rowdy and loud, but I just have to figure out how to make this dog understand they are allowed to do that but he's NOT allowed to do anything about it or join in. I want the dog to understand that we're allowing him to be part of our pack, but he's going to do things our way.:) My main focus is going to be working with him all day if necessary. Also, I've got a call into the trainer I purchased him from. He's ranked 2 or 3 in the world, so I'm hoping he can come over for a couple 30 min sessions to help me take my training up to the next level. I feel like I've made so much progress in 6 weeks, but I need to learn even more. BTW, this is a pure German bred shepherd, not American bred. Curious if any of you have one? I'm wondering if the working drive and strength is completely different vs. the American bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Reliable information on alpha/dominance theory: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - Position Paper on Dominance Theory (The "Myths" section of the position paper will clear up a lot of the misinformation posted on this thread.) Dumbed Down By Dominance, Part 1 Dumbed Down By Dominance, Part 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GirlTwinBoys Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Thanks to those that have posted various links. I look forward to reading over them tonight when I go to bed.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I've had dogs since I can remember; mostly extra-large breeds. Your GSD will be your best friend and most loyal companion as long as you train him right and you have his respect. We just adopted a 7 month-old GSD/Choc Lab mix. He's all GSD with the lab feet and coloring (beautiful dog) and BIG! This guy was WILD when we got him. He's now 9 months. Our 9 YO dd is used to big dogs, so that wasn't a problem. She immediately started lowering her voice and commanding him when he got too rough. We use one command so as not to confuse him "OFF". When any of us say this it means get off of whatever you are biting or on! He now sits nicely and waits for us to put his food down and waits for the command to eat. He has gotten immeasurably better with company. Still jumps up a little in excitement, but one look from one of us and he settles down. We got a special collar for him to take walks. Yes, it's the one with the teeth. No, it's not cruel. The collar does nothing as long as he doesn't pull. When he pulls, he feels pressure (the teeth are blunt on the ends). Otherwise he would tear my arm from it's socket. He knows sit, stay and lay. The first thing you must understand is that your kids need to be alpha over him. This can be done as others suggest. First teach him to sit for his food. Once he has this down. Have your kids take turns feeding him, making him sit for his food. Teach him the "OFF" command. Contrary to popular belief, yes, you can strike your dog. Believe me, it hurts your hand more than them, but it tells them you are alpha and gets their attention. Another option is to grab him by the scruff of the neck and force him down into a laying position. This establishes your dominance. If your dog was in a pack situation, he would get more than thumped by the alpha male - he would get bitten. If you don't like hitting, you could also grab him around the muzzle and squeeze. This is universal dog for I AM BOSS! Teach this to your kids and tell them to say firmly and deeply -- "OFF" if he starts to mouth them. Just grab the upper part of his snout if that's all that's possible. Your kids need to be the boss - no wimps. Next - exercise is CRUCIAL! If walks are out of the question, hopefully you have a fenced yard. Have your kids (once they have the OFF command down) take him out and play fetch whatever (stick, ball - ours even plays with large gourds). Our dd takes our guy out back and plays with him for hours. Now she has taught him to play hide and seek! He will sit and stay while she hides, then call for him from her hiding place. It's great! You can do this; just be firm and consistent. If you need help, consult a professional or get a good training book. Above all remember - you and your family are the boss! It is crucial he learns this while he is young and manageable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Reliable information on alpha/dominance theory: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - Position Paper on Dominance Theory (The "Myths" section of the position paper will clear up a lot of the misinformation posted on this thread.) Dumbed Down By Dominance, Part 1 Dumbed Down By Dominance, Part 2 Thanks for linking these. They confirm a lot of what I am learning as we deal with a couple of issues with one of our dogs. And...I grow weary of the advice I receive based on 'dumbed down' dominance. I do agree that the OP needs to involve her Dc more in the training and educate them about dog behavior. I'm also not sure that herding instincts are not playing into the behaviors. Our Border Collie used to herd Ds when he was little. Occasionally he using nipping or an openmouthed guidance to round up Ds. I honestly don't remember how we stopped it b/c it was so long ago. ETA: A child running by the dog (as OP described) is certainly enough to stimulate herding instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Mine went through a phase like that. He was about 5 months old when we brought him home, and by 6 months he was 50 lbs or so too, so I get the intimidation factor. Our trainer advised us to get a bunch of little spray bottles, fill them with Listerine (the gross kind -- not the mint flavored) and leave them within easy reaching distance around the house. Spray it right in his mouth and yell, "No bite!" when he does it. They HATE the taste! It's important that your children do this as well so he learns his place in the pack. I saw the whole litter-mate dynamic with my kids and our dog too. They came to training class with us, and I reinforced with them at home that they need to be firm with the dog and immediately correct behavior they don't like. At nearly 2, he listens to both kids very well. Getting them actively involved in the training (even if it's not in class, but at home) is important. Edited to add: I read more of the thread. Mine is pure German lines as well (he's a Von Traumhoff, and her dogs are all descended from one Kirshental (sp?) male imported from Germany). These dogs have a strong herding drive, and I was surprised to find, a strong prey drive for German Shepherds. If my children ran by my dog when he was that young, he would try to chase and nip them too. They have to be firm. Teaching our dog, "place" was one of the best commands ever! When he starts to get too wound up, we say "place" and he goes to the rug (and usually pouts about). At almost 2, we have playdates and co-op here with lots of children, and he usually ignores them all when they're running around and screaming. He still tries to eat our cats though, and any small dog he comes across. I've seriously never seen such a strong prey-drive in a GS before. We're still correcting that behavior. 2 of my friends have dogs from the same breeder and they've encountered similar things. I think a lot of what you're describing is breed-typical for that age (especially with male dogs, as our trainer who specializes in GSDs has told us) but it is behavior that should be corrected. Edited October 26, 2012 by jujsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 My GSD still nips my 3 year old son (my GSD is also 3 years old). He does it to tell my son "no, that's dangerous" and to "herd" him back to safety. Frankly, I've learned to embrace it. Probably not a popular opinion, but I'd rather him nipped in the seat of the pants than running into the road (and that child can dart!). LOl. No amount of "dominance" shown to our GSD has been able to quell certain protective and/or herding instincts with our son, so I've considered making it his *job* to stick close to our son when out of doors... it will give him a place for those instincts (I'm not suggesting that I'll allow him to bite or dominate our son, but that if we make it his *job* to stay at DS's side, it may help lessen his tendency to nip him when DS does something GSD perceives as "dangerous"). Probably a bad idea... *shrug* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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