Sandragood1 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 ...please help. So, DS is taking a course dual enrollment at the local cc. Turns out, he is not handling it very well. We have until the end of October to drop and leave no record. Of course, there will be no $ back. DH and I are trying to determine whether or not to drop. To drop: A C or below would look very bad in regards to potential 4-year colleges ?? (though he will probably go for an Associate's degree first) He cannot handle the class. (IMO mostly about executive thinking skills and laziness) $ is already gone, either way. To stay: What lesson does quitting teach? Not a good one. There is value in the attempt (he is learning, just not well enough) and he is learning what college profs expect from students. He probably won't get a science this year if he drops out. If he does, I'll be teaching it - and I'm pretty busy. (He doesn't do well independently) Any of you with experience in Dual Enrollment, I would really appreciate your ideas. Thanks, Sandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 ...please help. So, DS is taking a course dual enrollment at the local cc. Turns out, he is not handling it very well. We have until the end of October to drop and leave no record. Of course, there will be no $ back. DH and I are trying to determine whether or not to drop. To drop: A C or below would look very bad in regards to potential 4-year colleges ?? (though he will probably go for an Associate's degree first) He cannot handle the class. (IMO mostly about executive thinking skills and laziness) $ is already gone, either way. To stay: What lesson does quitting teach? Not a good one. There is value in the attempt (he is learning, just not well enough) and he is learning what college profs expect from students. He probably won't get a science this year if he drops out. If he does, I'll be teaching it - and I'm pretty busy. (He doesn't do well independently) Any of you with experience in Dual Enrollment, I would really appreciate your ideas. Thanks, Sandra Perhaps the lesson that dropping the class teaches is that tackling a demanding course without the necessary attitude or willingness to work hard is costly. That's not a bad thing to take in before 20. What science was he taking? There are probably some options that are more laid out than others, so that you could supervise rather than actually teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Students drop classes all the time. It isn't a sign of poor character or anything. Better he should drop it now than get a bad grade on it. He can take it another semester with a different teacher, and he'll probably get a better grade. I wouldn't try to replace the science at home. That he doesn't have science now is not a big deal. Really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicheleinMN Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I've had 2 students, so far, who did dual enrollment. I would drop the class. If your child is simply not putting in the time and effort, I would consider making him/her repay the cost, but mostly I would just consider it my cost and lesson...that my child/student was not ready for that amount of work. (We do not let our children do dual enrollment until their senior year, AND they are required to pay gas/food expenses for their out of the house courses.) HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) I would have him switch to Hearer Status and require him to keep up with the work, even though he will not be tested by the professor. I would have sympathy for a student struggling with the pace of a college course , but I would absolutely not tolerate laziness. A C looks bad, no question about that. Dropping the course means you are out the money with nothing to show for. Completing the course as a Hearer would mean that he still attends class and learns at least part of the material; you would have the option of choosing which assignments he should complete. and you could give him your own evaluation and award high school credit for the course of he at least completes high school level work in the subject. Edited October 20, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyOR Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I also vote for auditing the class rather than dropping it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 By Hearer, do you mean auditing? I think that's what I've always heard it called. Maybe you mean something different. That's an intriguing idea--auditing a class and then giving high school credit. Here though, we have to pay tuition for auditing. Yes, auditing - here it is called "hearer Status". Technically, the student does not have to do anything but listen- the prof can't demand assignments or tests. But the homeschooling parent could stipulate that the student had to do assignments, give him tests, and award high school credit just like she would for completion of a high school textbook or self study course. At our university it is full tuition for hearer status as well - but the OP has already paid the tuition; this would be a way to at least get education, if not credit, for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 If it were my student, I'd have him drop to save his transcript. However, I'd be having that student be repaying that tuition, books and fees. Sometimes you have to drop back and regroup. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a consequence to that. :iagree::iagree: Without a doubt. There has to be a consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandragood1 Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Thank you for your thoughts. I'm sorry I took a while to get back to you - DH and I just went out to dinner to discuss this. The class is Chem 101 for non-science majors. I need to look into the possibility of changing to audit status. I don't know if a student can audit while dual enrolled.... He has taken online Thinkwell Economics and Alex math before. He doesn't stay on top of things unless I really ride him (don't take his word for what is done). He always sees things as rosier than they are until he has dug himself a deep, deep hole. He thought he had an A on the first test and got a D. I instituted changes to his study plans and he got a C on the second test. Unfortunately I don't have the time to really ride him. My dd has some special needs that require therapies as well as my near constant presence to get any schooling done. One thing that really sticks in my craw, is that he hasn't said, "It's my fault. I just didn't study well enough." What he says is more like, "The teacher....." According to ds the professor says that no one is doing very well in the class. Maybe there will be a curve. There were serious curves in many of my college science and math classes back in the day (Texas A&M). Sorry this has been so disjointed. I am trying to answer questions, and new thoughts keep popping into my head. FWIW, my DH agrees with you all - drop the class or maybe switch to audit. I'm the one thinking he needs a slice of humble pie. I'll keep checking back. Right now my brain is full and I'm tired. I had training all day. Thank you again, Sandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Students drop classes all the time. It isn't a sign of poor character or anything. Better he should drop it now than get a bad grade on it. He can take it another semester with a different teacher, and he'll probably get a better grade. I wouldn't try to replace the science at home. That he doesn't have science now is not a big deal. Really. Knowing when to drop a class and try again later vs trying to stick it out (and maybe end up having to repeat it anyway, and deal with a poor grade in my GPA) was one of the most important "study skills" I learned in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 In my experience professors can allow auditing whenever they want. This might be a good option but you would still have to check up on all his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I recommend dropping the class. I guess you can try having him audit the class if they allow that for dual credit students. My oldest had to drop her physics II class at the cc. She loved her physics I teacher, but he didn't teach physics II. The only teacher for that class had a thick Slavic accent and spoke in a monotone. My dd could NOT manage that class. She also had a lot of difficulty with his homework system. He was the first teacher she had who did all assignments online. She had a D at the final drop date, so she dropped it. It just wasn't going to happen. She did very well in her other classes and her stress level dropped way down as soon as she dropped that class. I now have my oldest convinced that she should ALWAYS sign up for one more class than she intends to take with the express intention of dropping one of the classes during the survey period. This saved her from an awful teacher this semester (her scholarship requires a minimum of 15hours). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Margaret - Do you have time to post this article in a separate post with a title that would attract all the first-timers who might not know this? This is one of those things that families with previous college experience usually take for granted but first-generation families don't know, risking catastrophe. Just trying to level the playing field a bit... Nan PS - Wouldn't about now be a good time for you to post your annual post about maritime academies? If you have time... Surely some students would like to go to Star Fleet Academy GRIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Thank you for your thoughts. I'm sorry I took a while to get back to you - DH and I just went out to dinner to discuss this. The class is Chem 101 for non-science majors. I need to look into the possibility of changing to audit status. I don't know if a student can audit while dual enrolled.... He has taken online Thinkwell Economics and Alex math before. He doesn't stay on top of things unless I really ride him (don't take his word for what is done). He always sees things as rosier than they are until he has dug himself a deep, deep hole. He thought he had an A on the first test and got a D. I instituted changes to his study plans and he got a C on the second test. Unfortunately I don't have the time to really ride him. My dd has some special needs that require therapies as well as my near constant presence to get any schooling done. One thing that really sticks in my craw, is that he hasn't said, "It's my fault. I just didn't study well enough." What he says is more like, "The teacher....." According to ds the professor says that no one is doing very well in the class. Maybe there will be a curve. There were serious curves in many of my college science and math classes back in the day (Texas A&M). Sorry this has been so disjointed. I am trying to answer questions, and new thoughts keep popping into my head. FWIW, my DH agrees with you all - drop the class or maybe switch to audit. I'm the one thinking he needs a slice of humble pie. I'll keep checking back. Right now my brain is full and I'm tired. I had training all day. Thank you again, Sandra I think you can provide "humble pie" by making him have to pay for the course without getting the college credit. Or by making him pay for a replacement course that he does at home. Or by schooling through the summer at home to catch up. Taking a low grade on a permanent transcript when there was a mismatch between student ability/readiness/resolve and the course demands may be more of a consequence than the situation requires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I believe the survey period is also referred to as the add/drop period, and any courses dropped during this short time frame don't even appear on the transcript at all. But I agree that dropping too many courses which will appear as a W on the transcript should be avoided. IMO this student should talk with the professor and an adviser regarding his options. I'm wondering whose idea it was to take the course. If the student wanted to take the course, I'd be helping him to find the resources at the college to help him - tutors, learning center, etc.. It's possible that the professor drops the lowest test score, or replaces it with the final. I'd be exploring all the options for staying with the course first. If a poor grade is certain, then dropping it, or switching to auditing - if allowable, might be the best option. However, I'd be signing a contract with the student that he needed to put in the work needed for the course, even if audited. I'd try to use this as a learning experience to help him to get a better start in future classes rather than letting him continue with his blaming others for his situation. Helping him to become a more independent student now will definitely help him, and you too. I'd also check into the school's policy on re-taking classes. Some CCs allow students to re-take a class, they have to pay again, and the D or F is replaced with the new grade on the transcript. If he's not a senior, this might be an option. I don't know if there's any indication on the transcript that the class was taken twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 We tried to do a few easy classes first, too - drawing and speech. Mine already knew something about these already and could concentrate on learning to go to school. Then we slowly added harder classes. In the case of the youngest, we started a bit earlier so senior year could ramp up to managing a full load and non-introductory science classes. We were SO glad we had done this as we watched them struggle with things that my husband and I took completely for granted. We did lots of coaching - none at all over the material but lots about going to school, things like keeping track of assignments (youngest was suprised by a bio exam last week in the thick of getting that college app done), buying books, how to answer multiple choice questions (pick the best of the answers - there probably isn't a truly correct, complete one), using a cafeteria, office hours, a syllabus, taking notes, working with different prof's, asking questions in class, forming study groups, even always putting one's name on one's paper. The list goes on and on. Our homeschool was pretty disciplined but the structure was different from a classroom structure. This would be especially obvious with a class like chemistry, which requires especially good study skills. I have one of those overly optimistic students. We've talked about this a lot and I've come to see why it seems like a teacher problem to him. I takes skill to learn to interpret (in other words - properly mistrust) a professor's lecture of the material, or even "review" or description of what will be on the exam. My son tends to focus on one aspect and ignore others. The aspect that he has down cold will be one that is worth only a few points. This often would be a troublesome bit that the prof would emphasize, assuming that the students were learning all the easy bits on their own. My son tends to miss the big picture. My son was used to being able to pick up things fairly quickly and that didn't apply to chemistry lol, so what he felt was a good amount of study was quite far from enough. It didn't help that he was obviously brighter than most of the class but was obviously going to have to spend far more time on the material than they had to because of his inexperience with classroom learning. That took quite awhile to sink in. From the outside, this looked exactly like laziness. Only lots of coaching straightened out the situation. We started his younger brother in the community college a year earlier (in 10th) so he'd have more classroom experience before he hit university and this has worked better. Youngest also learned from watching us coach older, and is less optimistic and more big-picture oriented in general. Also, with youngest, we discovered that it has helped a LOT to tell him he has to get 100% on everything. This one is more willing to "play the game" and is able to convince himself that chasing every last extra point really matters. Older one, although not good at looking at the whole table of contents of a textbook, is much better at the big, big picture and knows that a C won't ruin his life. Anyway, what I am hoping to convey with all this is that there might not be a simple solution to your problem. It might require time-consuming coaching. I know you don't have time to do this, but is there any sort of help available from the community college? Is there a "how to study" class? Can he get some sort of individual coaching/support/tutoring from the school? It sounds like you know how to do it, and it might be time well worth investing, if you can somehow manage to find it. You know your student best and won't have to spend time eliminating all the other reasons he might be doing badly. Whether you should drop or not is something that is hard to judge. I think it depends on his ultimate goal and whether a C is going to be a problem. We let ours get C's in community college. If this is off the mark for your student, just ignore it. Hugs. This is one of the questions that make having older children so hard. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 It sounds to me like this was a bad idea from the beginning. A student who doesn't work well independently taking Chem, even if it was for non-science majors? It sounds like he wasn't ready. I doubt I would make him repay it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) I would drop it (or audit it if you can, here we cannot.) I would double check your dual enrollment policies; the colleges in this county drop any DE student who goes below a 2.0 at the CC/university and there is very little chance of being reinstated to the dual enrollment program. Edited October 21, 2012 by Melissa B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) As a clarification, I'm talking about signing up for just one more class than you intend to keep each semester and dropping that one class during the survey period. I don't know of any school that penalizes for this and at orientation for my dd's school, they encouraged students to do this. Classes that are dropped during the survey period do not show up on your transcript at any school I know about. Even way back when I was in college, nothing mattered until after the survey period was over. In Texas, you are only allowed to drop 6 classes over your entire school career outside of the survey period even if you go to several different state schools. After that, you lose in-state tuition and have to pay the out-of-state rate. But classes that are dropped while a dual credit student don't count towards those 6 classes. The survey period is a freebie at all the schools I have any knowledge of, but I haven't looked at any schools outside of Texas. Edited October 21, 2012 by AngieW in Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 In my experience professors can allow auditing whenever they want. This might be a good option but you would still have to check up on all his work. That's not the case at the cc where I teach. Students can only switch to audit status (and have an AU on their transcript) during the first 5 days of the semester. I'd also check into the school's policy on re-taking classes. Some CCs allow students to re-take a class' date=' they have to pay again, and the D or F is replaced with the new grade on the transcript. If he's not a senior, this might be an option. I don't know if there's any indication on the transcript that the class was taken twice.[/quote'] The D or F will remain on the transcript at our cc. What can happen is that the higher grade is the one that's computed in the GPA and the lower grade doesn't count for the GPA. However, if you send the transcript to another school, they will see the D or F from the first attempt at the course. W's don't count for GPA but they do appear on the transcript. They can affect financial aid - "satisfactory academic progress". If you're looking to transfer, you also need to be careful how the school you're transferring to views Ws. Different schools - and sometimes even different schools within a college - can handle Ws and retaking courses in sometimes surprising ways. In this case, I'd likely still drop the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 In my experience professors can allow auditing whenever they want. This might be a good option but you would still have to check up on all his work. That is not the case at the university where I teach. A student can only change to auditing within the first six weeks of the semester (same deadline as dropping a course without a W on the transcript). It is up to the professor to allow the student to make this change or to deny the request - but after this date, the student can not switch, not even with a professor's consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I'd also check into the school's policy on re-taking classes. Some CCs allow students to re-take a class' date=' they have to pay again, and the D or F is replaced with the new grade on the transcript. If he's not a senior, this might be an option. I don't know if there's any indication on the transcript that the class was taken twice.[/quote'] :iagree: my daughter's schools have had this policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 For what it is worth, I'd consider a few things if possible. First, talk with the professor and find out for sure how bad he is doing and try to figure out why. Consider the audit deal. It's possible the professor would allow him to officially drop and keep coming. If this is the case, it could be possible he could take the same class next semester and complete it with a better score because he's got some of it under his belt by auditing. Even if he does not take the same class, could he take another science (an easier one) next semester to get a science for this year. OR immediately start another chemistry now that he'll have to complete by working in the summer? (That maybe a better payment for this than a $$$). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I haven't read all the posts-there were too many-so forgive if I am repeating someone. A skill that is essential for a college student to learn is the skill of asking for help. The sooner a kid learns this the better. So there will be a tutoring lab on campus that you child is eligible to use and the prof. has office hours. Make use of both regularly. That is what you want your child to learn. Profs and teacher alike think better of a student who is persistent in getting help even though their grade is slightly lower. The perseverance is a good thing. I had high level high school teachers tell me that a B on a college level class in high school doesn't harm the college app. (as long as there's not too many) because it shows that the student stuck their necks out and took on a challenge. My son had them and still got a full ride. Just another point of view, good luck with whatever you decide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Unfortunately, some kids just WON'T ask for help no matter what. They have to already be completely underwater before they will admit to themselves that they really need help and then they really have to work hard just to barely keep up. My oldest is like this. She lives in complete denial until midterms come out. My middle dd will always ask for help. I teach classes in my home. Several of my students are very good about asking for help when they can't get the answers that the book shows. The others just won't ask for help no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 A skill that is essential for a college student to learn is the skill of asking for help. The sooner a kid learns this the better. So there will be a tutoring lab on campus that you child is eligible to use and the prof. has office hours. Make use of both regularly. That is what you want your child to learn. :iagree: this is why we have encouraged DD, who is taking calculus based physics at the university this semester, to attend the Physics Learning Center and work on her homework there. DH and I would be perfectly capable of assisting her at home (we are both physics profs), but we want her to develop the habit of using these resources, of working with a study group, using the blackboard, consulting the instructor. I consider this one of the most important college prep skills to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I also vote for auditing the class rather than dropping it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 On the topic of asking for help, I just wanted to share this article. It may be good to try to explore some of the reasons behind the student's hesitation to ask for help. http://www.collegeparents.org/members/resources/articles/why-your-college-student-might-not-ask-help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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