Why would IEW writing flop?

[Writerdaddy]

I have had my eye on this, even though I am competent to teach writing to my dc 8yrs. I think I could use the discipline of the scheduled sequence, plus there must be good teaching ideas in there.

 

why do some report it as a big flop? I can't afford any more flops. I would greatly appreciate anyone who could explain why it flopped with your kids. I can usually use cues in the posts to tell if my dc is similar to the responders' dc, so fire away!

 

Thanks,

Alan

 

Ps. I was thinking of getting SWI A, and not the TWSS since I think I can figure my way around it.

[justLisa]

The TWSS IS the program. The SWI-A only covers so many of the units.

 

I have read posts where someone said they didn't like it but never had the TWSS. SO maybe that has something to do with it.

 

We love it.

[Jen500]

We used one of the history based theme books, because my boys love history. I didn't like the checklists, and more specifically I didn't like what was on the checklists. I thought in the time we used the book their writing assignments were not as good as their writing before we started IEW. A little too formulaic. I could have continued with the book without all the checklists/banned words/dressups etc but I think those play a big part in the books. I can see how IEW would be good for some students though, just not mine. :001_smile:

[Pen]

I have had my eye on this, even though I am competent to teach writing to my dc 8yrs. I think I could use the discipline of the scheduled sequence, plus there must be good teaching ideas in there.

 

why do some report it as a big flop? I can't afford any more flops. I would greatly appreciate anyone who could explain why it flopped with your kids. I can usually use cues in the posts to tell if my dc is similar to the responders' dc, so fire away!

 

Thanks,

Alan

 

Ps. I was thinking of getting SWI A, and not the TWSS since I think I can figure my way around it.

 

If you get it direct from IEW it is, at least theoretically, returnable. Since I haven't yet tried to do a return, I don't know how hard that will be in practice.

 

I still absolutely have to return my All Things Fun and Fascinating, which ds found neither fun nor fascinating. SWI A is more interesting than ATFF, but really only one assignment from it ever got done, so I think I'd say that was rather a flop too and I should probably return that as well--though I do keep hoping he will get back to it... The best part, IMO, is the TWSS--and then to apply its ideas to other writing. But you could try both TWSS and SWI-A and then, perhaps, join me in needing to actually package up what doesn't work and send it on back!

 

ETA: You asked for specifics: The TWSS is where, mainly, the good teaching ideas are, and really lays out the program. The SWI-A is practice of the method, with writing samples and some direct instruction to make finding practice assignments and starting out easier on parents who might feel lost with just the TWSS--ones who could not find their way around it. It gives passages to apply the TWSS methods to, and also gives direct video instruction to the child in those methods.

 

My son would rather work on subjects he finds interesting and do research and then writing (well, no, actually he would rather go play and do neither research nor writing, but if he has to write, he likes it to be on his own interests), so even though I think the SWI-A topics, like Sea Snakes or Tarantulas, seem interesting, my son does not especially find them so. OTOH, the reason I have not yet sent it back, is that I do have some hopes that he would go back to it. It gives some easy good practice for writing on a topic that might not be one's choice, which I think does have value. And, for the one assignment he did do, I thought it was helpful. But very expensive if that is all he will ever do without a drag out fight.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Pen

[razorbackmama]

Many people say it is a flop because they don't like all the "style" aspects of it...the dress-ups and stuff.

 

IEW is a huge hit here, and I wish wish wish I hadn't listed to the naysayers for so many years.

[boscopup]

Some people can't get past the unit 1/2 rewriting sentence-by-sentence. I think the most complaints are from people not liking that particular section, and they never get past it to see the rest of the program.

 

But at the same time, I could see it being a problem for a child that doesn't appreciate a checklist of things to put in their paragraphs. My son isn't crazy about that part, but he has no trouble doing it, and we brainstorm a lot before writing, so he usually has an idea of where to put his "who/which" or "because" clauses.

 

The writing will sound a bit "weird" when they have all these dressups added in. Remember that this is not the final product. It's more like the finger exercises you use when learning piano, or playing scales. You are learning tools that you can use in your writing, and later on, the dressup requirements are dropped, and you just use them where they fit nicely.

 

My son was reluctant to put pen to paper at all, though his thoughts were very good (oral narrations were excellent). IEW has helped him get over his fear. Your kids may not have this issue, since you yourself are a writer. I'm not a writer. I'm a math geek. My DH is a math geek. My kids are math geeks, though my oldest is well read enough that he will probably be a good writer once he gets over that typical boy fear of using a pencil. :D

 

I do think it would be a bad fit for a child who naturally writes well and doesn't need a lot of instruction on structure or style.

[Pen]

....

I do think it would be a bad fit for a child who naturally writes well and doesn't need a lot of instruction on structure or style.

 

I'm not sure about that. I think it might be helpful for a child who naturally writes well too. Or at least, it would be helpful to actually hear from someone who has a child where that was the case to know how it went, flop or not flop in such a case.

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks! I guess I am getting more sold than unsold. I am a writer and my son excels at math, although he has some flair for constructing complex sentences.

I think if IEW helps with learning structure including that of sentences, with required structures etc., that sounds good.

 

So, my main questions are:

 

can you say a bit more about "dress-ups" ? Sounds good, as far as I can guess what it means.

 

is the "flop" then due to not so interesting topics in the assignments, and that possibly the instructions are too unnatural and awkward and might not lead to the best results, for some kids. This is I think what I have gleaned from the answers so far. What else could it be?

 

finally, it seems the TWSS is what I would want then, but does it have a set sequence to follow? If its just some great teaching ideas, then I guess I could find good ideas cheaper elsewhere. But, if it has a step by step plan for the kid (which is actually just to keep me disciplined and on track systematically going through it), then that would be a selling point.

 

thanks again!

Edited October 22, 2012 by Writerdaddy

[razorbackmama]

can you say a bit more about "dress-ups" ? Sounds good, as far as I can guess what it means.

"Dress-ups" are things like making sure that there are strong verbs and adjectives, adverbs, who/which clauses, etc. When they are first learning, the program requires the use of them. Of course you can alter these instructions, but they have been very helpful here because my kids' writing is very flat LOL.

 

is the "flop" then due to not so interesting topics in the assignments, and that possibly the instructions are too unnatural and awkward and might not lead to the best results, for some kids. This is I think what I have gleaned from the answers so far. What else could it be?

We use the SWI in addition to TWSS. So I guess for that (SWI), I can see that, since the models are provided. Some students probably would find them boring or something. With TWSS though, the point is to use material the student is already reading in history/science/literature.

 

finally, it seems the TWSS is what I would want then, but does it have a set sequence to follow? If its just some great teaching ideas, then I guess I could find good ideas cheaper elsewhere. But, if it has a step by step plan for the kid (which is actually just to keep me disciplined and on track systematically going through it), then that would be a selling point.

Again, we use the SWI, which is very step-by-step. But I believe TWSS is also.

[justLisa]

Thanks! I guess I am getting more sold than unsold. I am a writer and my son excels at math, although he has some flair for constructing complex sentences.

I think if IEW helps with learning structure including that of sentences, with required structures etc., that sounds good.

 

So, my main questions are:

 

can you say a bit more about "dress-ups" ? Sounds good, as far as I can guess what it means.

 

is the "flop" then due to not so interesting topics in the assignments, and that possibly the instructions are too unnatural and awkward and might not lead to the best results, for some kids. This is I think what I have gleaned from the answers so far. What else could it be?

 

finally, it seems the TWSS is what I would want then, but does it have a set sequence to follow? If its just some great teaching ideas, then I guess I could find good ideas cheaper elsewhere. But, if it has a step by step plan for the kid (which is actually just to keep me disciplined and on track systematically going through it), then that would be a selling point.

 

thanks again!

 

The TWSS has all of the units.

 

And the material is as boring or interesting as you make it. You can literally use ANY subject matter. That is why I love it.

 

And I love how he says that writing should not BE a separate subject. It is in EVERY subject. His point is to be writing across your studies.

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks! yeah, I can come up with plenty of topics for writing. my main question now just concerns whether it is a curriculum or system of teaching writing, or it is a . To be more clear, I could imagine one:

 

let's say the first 2 weeks are working on adverbs and adjectives in sentences.

the next week is dependent clauses

the next is paragraph building

and so on...

 

maybe not quite that rigid, but what I mean is it gives me a discipline (because I paid a lot of money for it) which I will stick to, step by step, and that if I go through the steps it will add up to something in the end. Although I feel perfectly competent to teach anything at all to do with writing, I would appreciate having the planning and decision making taken out of my hands, what with everything else on our minds.

 

thanks again!

[monalisa]

I don't think TWSS is going to break it down week by week like that, but it does instruct you how to systematically work through the units. It isn't just a collection of teaching tips. SWI-A (and B and C) does have a suggested week by week schedule, and I think the theme based books do too. I have both TWSS and SWI-A (which my dd9 really likes). You get a discount if you order TWSS with one of the SWI sets.

 

You don't have anything to lose if you order directly from IEW. I have returned Phonetic Zoo and the poetry curriculum when I decided they weren't a good fit for my dd, and was promptly refunded with no questions asked. They even send you a prepaid mailing label. I wouldn't even consider buying IEW products from any other source with such a great guarantee (you can return any item at any time -- there is no time limit).

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I think IEW is one of those things that is good for a season. It gets kids who are writing phobic to get pencil to paper and write. It is very formulaic and after a while found my sons writing had a forced quality about it. It did remove the fear of writing for him and once we dropped IEW his writing took off...during IEW he concentrated on all the dress ups and not the actual paper.

 

TWSS is needed but in my opinion WAY overpriced. Luckily it has great resell value.

[justLisa]

Thanks! yeah, I can come up with plenty of topics for writing. my main question now just concerns whether it is a curriculum or system of teaching writing, or it is a . To be more clear, I could imagine one:

 

let's say the first 2 weeks are working on adverbs and adjectives in sentences.

the next week is dependent clauses

the next is paragraph building

and so on...

 

maybe not quite that rigid, but what I mean is it gives me a discipline (because I paid a lot of money for it) which I will stick to, step by step, and that if I go through the steps it will add up to something in the end. Although I feel perfectly competent to teach anything at all to do with writing, I would appreciate having the planning and decision making taken out of my hands, what with everything else on our minds.

 

thanks again!

 

The SWI-A is planned out day to day, week by week and covers the first 5 units. Then you can get the next student course B to continue.

[Mommamia]

We used one of the history based theme books, because my boys love history. I didn't like the checklists, and more specifically I didn't like what was on the checklists. I thought in the time we used the book their writing assignments were not as good as their writing before we started IEW. A little too formulaic. I could have continued with the book without all the checklists/banned words/dressups etc but I think those play a big part in the books. I can see how IEW would be good for some students though, just not mine. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: same experience.

[cjgrubbs]

I just want to comment that I did complete a return and the company was 100% awesome to do it for me! SO if you if you buy, purchase directly from them! I has purchased the TWSS and then realized that my cover school had it for parents to check out and didn't need it. I called them and told them about that and that I only needed the teacher binder and they were so kind to let me return the DVDs and sent me a check for the difference. It was pretty easy and done in a reasonable amount of time!

 

Now, with that being said, my kids don't love IEW but they don't love any writing! We are taking a break from IEW this year and are focusing on dictation, narration and short reports on various topics. They don't like that either but the elements of style that we learned with IEW have helped them and we still mentally go back to those items as we are editing their work. I would highly recommended giving it a try, since you truly have nothing to lose given the awesome return policy they offer!

 

I'm also using the PAL program with my 1st grader and we love it too!

[Writerdaddy]

Wow thanks, I didn't realize about the return policy. That would make sense to check it out then. I'm too curious now not to.

[NittanyJen]

Some people can't get past the unit 1/2 rewriting sentence-by-sentence. I think the most complaints are from people not liking that particular section, and they never get past it to see the rest of the program.

 

But at the same time, I could see it being a problem for a child that doesn't appreciate a checklist of things to put in their paragraphs. My son isn't crazy about that part, but he has no trouble doing it, and we brainstorm a lot before writing, so he usually has an idea of where to put his "who/which" or "because" clauses.

 

The writing will sound a bit "weird" when they have all these dressups added in. Remember that this is not the final product. It's more like the finger exercises you use when learning piano, or playing scales. You are learning tools that you can use in your writing, and later on, the dressup requirements are dropped, and you just use them where they fit nicely.

 

 

:iagree:

 

My younger is using SWI-A and my older is using the Medieval Writing book. My older son particularly resents the checklists, and we finally had to sit down and discuss why the assignments are the way they are, and I explained it this way, when he got to one where he was instructed to remove all state of being verbs from his essay:

 

I explained that in this assignment, he was getting intensive practice on rewriting passive sentences, and because he had to rewrite ALL passive sentences, he was being forced to think up several different means of coping with this task instead of just thinking up one or two ways of doing so. Now in the future, when he needs to rewrite a passage of his own writing in a more active voice, whether because a professor demands it or his own writer-spidey-sense demands it, he will have a variety of tools in his writer's toolkit to draw upon, rather than always tackling it the same way and ending up with boring writing.

 

Similarly, with respect to the repetitive charge of having an -ly word and a strong adjective and a vocab word in each paragraph, having to do accomplish this week after week after week in a manufactured setting will, in an effort to avoid boredom, force him to come up with creative ways to think about how to incorporate these features into his writer's tookit, and to see for himself which ones work and which ones don't, and what each method accomplishes for him-- forcefulness, concision, precision, scene or tone, whatever he needs-- so that in the future when he is free of this artificial checklist, he will have enormous experience using these tools and will be able to call upon the appropriate one at will to accomplish what he needs to accomplish in his writing.

 

I likened it to his karate. In karate, we practice many types of drills-- we do isolated basic techniques over and over again. We practice prearranged sparring drills, pre-arranged self-defense techniques, and pre-determined sequences of moves called kata. We do these moves over and over and over until they can be performed automatically. There is no intention that if caught in a self-defense situation, the student will suddenly stop and perform Seisan Kata from start to finish to ward off his attacker, or stop his attacker, request that he reposition himself into a particular wrist hold, then proceed with the attack so that the student can get out of it properly. However, it would be the height of foolishness to believe that these drills-- the individual techniques, the prearranged sparring and self defense, and the kata-- would play no role in the student's ability to defend himself. Of course they would. The idea is to drill the techniques into a student so that he can use them fluidly without needing to plan out each move any more than we need to stop and plan out each word of a novel sentence before we can speak it in casual conversation. IEW is providing the student with a repertoire of techniques from which to draw as needed when writing.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[NittanyJen]

PS: On SWI-A specifically-- I wanted DS9 to learn he could learn from someone other than Mom all the time-- sometimes he gets a bit stuck on the Mom channel :). It's fine that he works with me a lot-- he will only be 9 for one short year after all-- but big brother needs my time too, so he needs to learn to deal without me some too. Success here; he loves listening to Andrew on the DVD! He also loves the writing samples provided, and is very proud to work on this work alone even though he used to hate writing.

 

DS11, using the Medieval book, is grudgingly admitting that it is helping his writing to get better, and that he is even starting to see some value in editing his work to improve it, which for him is huge. I see a day and night difference in his writing from before we started to work on it-- though some of that also goes back to the time we spent with WWE; we covered books 1--3 in a year, plus a small chunk of WWS, and that helped him tremendously.

[Dolphin]

Wow thanks, I didn't realize about the return policy. That would make sense to check it out then. I'm too curious now not to.

 

I was fortunate enough to listen to Andrew Pudewa last spring. I haven't yet gotten enough money to buy the writing program, but the part he did at the conference was amazing. We have 2 IEW products that we are very happy with. Phonetic Zoo and Linguistic Development. I was comfortable buying them as I was assured by Mr. Pudewa himself that if there was any reason we didn't like the program to please return it. Any reason at all. I have not heard of anyone having a problem with returns with this company. I have asked my mom to buy me the writing DVD's for Christmas.

[Writerdaddy]

The karate metaphor is filling things in for me, and making me think this is after all what exactly I am looking for. Just to play a bit with the metaphor though, in martial arts there are not a small number of people who argue that those forms, while better than nothing, are not the fastest, purest, or most effective way to learn to fight. It was quite a shock for China and Japan when they encountered little Thailand's fighters, or Russian Wrestlers, etc., who didn't train that way, and kicked all their butts.

 

The return policy is tempting-- one of it's purposes is no doubt to lure people like me in, who are just looking for any excuse to hit the buy button.

[justLisa]

PS: On SWI-A specifically-- I wanted DS9 to learn he could learn from someone other than Mom all the time-- sometimes he gets a bit stuck on the Mom channel :). It's fine that he works with me a lot-- he will only be 9 for one short year after all-- but big brother needs my time too, so he needs to learn to deal without me some too. Success here; he loves listening to Andrew on the DVD! He also loves the writing samples provided, and is very proud to work on this work alone even though he used to hate writing.

 

DS11, using the Medieval book, is grudgingly admitting that it is helping his writing to get better, and that he is even starting to see some value in editing his work to improve it, which for him is huge. I see a day and night difference in his writing from before we started to work on it-- though some of that also goes back to the time we spent with WWE; we covered books 1--3 in a year, plus a small chunk of WWS, and that helped him tremendously.

 

That is EXAXTLY why I love the SWI. He claimed to think it was ridiculous and he doesn't want to watch a lesson, but I could him mouthing at the screen and smiling once. He likes it now. It is the most painless writing course I've ever seen

[Vida Winter]

The karate metaphor is filling things in for me, and making me think this is after all what exactly I am looking for. Just to play a bit with the metaphor though, in martial arts there are not a small number of people who argue that those forms, while better than nothing, are not the fastest, purest, or most effective way to learn to fight. It was quite a shock for China and Japan when they encountered little Thailand's fighters, or Russian Wrestlers, etc., who didn't train that way, and kicked all their butts.

 

The return policy is tempting-- one of it's purposes is no doubt to lure people like me in, who are just looking for any excuse to hit the buy button.

 

I was wary of IEW because from what I had seen of the program, I didn't like. Some of the IEW writing samples I had seen had overused dress-ups to the point of being ridiculous.

 

However...we recently took the plunge and I have been pleasantly surprised with the results. IEW actually gets the kids writing from the very start. It erased their "perfection paralysis" and gave them concrete steps to follow so they could not only get started, but finish. I suspect that they will go through a period of overusing dress-ups ( -ly adverbs and strong verbs), but then work through it and tone it down as they mature. I am IEW with a 3rd grader and 7th grader.

[PollyOR]

There are webinars online. Scroll to the bottom of the list for the most recent ones. They are about Units 1-3.

[NittanyJen]

The karate metaphor is filling things in for me, and making me think this is after all what exactly I am looking for. Just to play a bit with the metaphor though, in martial arts there are not a small number of people who argue that those forms, while better than nothing, are not the fastest, purest, or most effective way to learn to fight. It was quite a shock for China and Japan when they encountered little Thailand's fighters, or Russian Wrestlers, etc., who didn't train that way, and kicked all their butts.

 

The return policy is tempting-- one of it's purposes is no doubt to lure people like me in, who are just looking for any excuse to hit the buy button.

 

Indeed; as with any form of study, you can lose the forest for the trees; one role you will fill as the teacher is to help discover that tipping point to nudge the student away from the checklist crutch and into more natural writing-- perhaps using a pressure-timed essay or some other device, just as fluent martial artists find they must train under some level of stress in unchoreographed fighting in order to gain that next-level proficiency.

 

. . . and there is always that return guarantee :)

[Pen]

Well, I just borrowed the karate metaphor, but for ds likened IEW to fencing exercises, after which he agreed to give SWI-A another try. He did one session using SWI-A, and is now out playing, then (perhaps) will finish up this afternoon. So, here is his Pillbugs outline and start of paragraph from the outline. The "dress-up" is to do a "which clause", which (my which clause!) has yet to appear. He worked directly on computer, and thus got a few extra words for the outline since he cannot use things like a line through "roll" to mean "can't roll". Otherwise the basic rule is supposed to be 3 words per line of outline.

 

Pillbug

 

 

1. backyard inhabitants world

2. called disturbed roll

3. sowbug close relative

4. similar flatter can’t roll

5. animals crustaceans crabs

6. breathe through gills

7. underside slightly moist -- damp places

 

 

 

Pillbugs are backyard inhabitants that live around the world. People called them pillbugs because when they are disturbed they roll up into a ball.

 

 

 

The originals of these sentences went: "Pillbugs are common backyard inhabitants around the world. They are called pillbugs because when they are disturbed they can roll up into a ball like an old-fashioned pill."

 

The way the exercise works is that after making the outline, the student writes from the outline without the original in view. The originals seem generally to be done in a way that potentially allows the student's work to be better than the original is. That is, it is not a particularly excellent model, but rather a basic straightforward source for factual information (or a tale, or such). In some ways, this seems to be the opposite of WWE where the originals are often quite stylized or may have quaintly old-fashioned turns of phrase, but the student writing may likely end up far more plain.

 

This is typical, I think, of an SWI-A excerpt, where I find it reasonably interesting, since I did not know that pillbugs were crustaceans and breathe through gills. My son would tend to find this boring because it is not what he is interested in right now. But the analogy to a fencing exercise seemed to help a bit.

 

If you want a comparison of same child's writing from WWE4 and Brave Writer, I can give that.

 

BTW, is OP someone who once said he is knowledgeable about foreign language programs?

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks! I would really love any examples from the program. that helps a lot.

 

and no, the OP (me), is not versed in foreign language programs (at all).

 

I teach writing at college and graduate level-- but am very respectful of the fact that those who teach at lower levels must have accumulated wisdom I can draw from.

[brookspr]

The TWSS has all of the units.

 

And the material is as boring or interesting as you make it. You can literally use ANY subject matter. That is why I love it.

 

And I love how he says that writing should not BE a separate subject. It is in EVERY subject. His point is to be writing across your studies.

 

 

 

This is what also sold me on the program. My son is an adequate writer when the subject matter isn't of interest, but if he enjoys the subject he can write loads about it. I also think the key word outline concept they teach is great for note taking and speech writing. The program can be extended to any subject which makes it even more valuable in my opinion.

[AmyontheFarm]

There are webinarsonline. Scroll to the bottom of the list for the most recent ones. They are about Units 1-3.

 

 

 

PollyOR has anyone told you that they love you today? I am so happy to find these webinars! Thank you! I've been on that website I don't know how many times and yet, I've never seen them. Thanks again!

[mschickie]

We are just using the SWI-A. I understand the concepts behind it without seeing the TWSS and am able to help her with the assignments. At some point I may get TWSS if I can find it cheap enough but right now going through SWI-A with dd is enough. We plan on doing the continuation course next year.

[Mom2OandE]

We were doing it on our own and using a few guides on occasion. There was a time I wrote extremely well so I was not concerned. What I found was I had two much parent intense programs going and so we switched to TWSS. We love it! Even my dd, who writes beautifully but didnt enjoy it, has started to show joy in her work. We are currently using the Geography guide along with Beautiful Feet geography study.

[Mom2OandE]

We were doing it on our own and using a few guides on occasion. There was a time I wrote extremely well so I was not concerned. What I found was I had two much parent intense programs going and so we switched to TWSS. We love it! Even my dd, who writes beautifully but didnt enjoy it, has started to show joy in her work. We are currently using the Geography guide along with Beautiful Feet geography study.