momofkhm Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 In my effort to find the truth of what people believe by going to them instead of what other people write about them, can one or more of you comment on this? Find the whole post here. http://www.kevinbywater.com/?page_id=35 But let me say if this is contrary to what you believe, it may be inflammatory! Parts I'm looking for answers: M. Russell Ballard is one of the twelve apostles leading the Mormon Church. In his popular book, Our Search for Happiness: An Invitation to Understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Books, 1993)–a book often recommended by Mormon missionaries–we read this about the fall: “Indeed, we honor and respect Adam and Eve for their wisdom and foresight. Their lives in the Garden of Eden were blissful and pleasant; choosing to leave that behind so they and the entire human family could experience both the triumphs and travails of mortality must not have been easy. But we believe they did choose mortality, and in so doing made it possible for all of us to participate in Heavenly Father’s great, eternal plan†(87). Yes, Ballard says that Mormons “honor and respect Adam and Eve for their wisdom and foresight.†Wisdom and foresight? I would suggest that nothing of that sort could be gleaned from any biblical passages describing Adam and Eve and their actions that lead to their expulsion from the garden. But Ballard believes that Adam and Eve made choice to leave the bliss of the garden behind. Implicit in these comments is the belief that Adam and Eve actually sacrificed their privileges for our sakes. Behind these ideas resides the LDS (Latter-day Saint) belief that prior to the fall, Adam and Eve could not procreate, possibly due to the supposition that they wouldn’t have perceived each other’s nakedness (see Genesis 2:25; 3:7, 10, 11). In addition, Mormons assert that God provided Adam and Eve with two conflicting commands, the command to procreate and the command (read, prohibition) to eat of the tree. Without doing the latter, they would not be able to do the former. And if they obeyed the prohibition, then they would have lacked the ability to procreate. Thus, according to LDS theology, God placed Adam and Eve in a catch-22: there was no way for them to exist except for breaking one or the other of these commands (compare 1 Corinthians 10:13). I would suggest that this implies that while we may see the serpent as the tempter, he was merely an accomplice: it is God who initiated the temptation in creating a situation in which sin was inescapable (compare James 1:13). Like I said, I'm trying to find out if what this person says is what you actually believe or if it's just his interpretation while looking for "bad". If you are looking for it, you will probably find it by reading into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Former Mormon here, but since I think I'm a couple of time zones ahead of the most frequent Mormon posters, I'll add my two cents to give you something to think about until they sign on. :-) I only read the part you quoted. I didn't go to the site, and the writer is not someone I am familiar with. In general I would say that the part you quoted is an accurate representation of Mormon thought and teaching on Adam and Eve. Certainly Mormons don't revile Adam or Eve, although Eve takes more blame than Adam for their transgression. As near as I can recall (it's hard to sometimes to roll back my changes in theology), my personal belief as an adult Mormon was that surely God had another way by which Adam and Eve could have kept both commandments, but they couldn't see the plan and like humans often do, got impatient and took matters into their own hands. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugsMama Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Another Ex-Mormon here. Born and raised LDS, attended the seminary program and taught adult classes. Yes, that quote is doctrinal. As an adult member (when I was still LDS), I viewed it as God giving them a choice, yes it was a catch 22, but they had a chance to use their "free agency". God always allows a choice. Hopefully an active member will come along with their current POV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIE! Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 First – Thank you for asking LDS members what they believe rather than believing everything you read on the internet! I really appreciate that. I am an active LDS member. I am NOT a theologian. I will answer this to the best of my ability, but I’m sure there will be others who can answer it better. The quote from M. Russell Ballard is 100% doctrinal. We do believe that Adam and Eve could not procreate before the Fall. I do not know the reasons for that – though I’ve never heard it was because they could not “perceive each other’s nakedness†before. I always thought that their bodies pre-fall were somehow different, and unable to have children. But that is just my thought. The part he’s got completely wrong is “it is God who initiated the temptation.†I can see how the author came to this conclusion, but it is not at all how LDS people feel about the topic. God gave two commandments. Satan did the tempting. The two commandments couldn’t both be followed. But that is not uncommon in our lives today. We’re commanded to take care of our families. We’re commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy. “In it thou shalt not do any work†(from Exodus). Sometimes a parent has to choose to either work on the Sabbath, or not take care of his family. That is not God tempting man, but rather God giving man agency, and man needing to choose the better good. I had a few other examples in my head a minute ago – but I lost them. But if you think about it, we’re often asked to choose the better good. That does not mean God is tempting us to disobey one of his commands. Does that help clarify? Hopefully someone else will chime in with a better explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmomNY Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Active LDS member From the LDS.org web site Adam’s Role in Bringing Us Mortality BY PRESIDENT JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH (1876–1972) When Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, he was in the presence of God our Eternal Father. He talked with the Father and the Father with him. But something happened, and it had to happen: Adam partook of certain fruit. My Bible, the King James Version, [speaks in a commentator’s note] of Adam’s Fall [as] “man’s shameful fall.†Well, it wasn’t a shameful fall at all. Adam came here to bring mortality upon the earth, and that resulted in the shutting out from the presence of the Eternal Father of both Adam and Eve and their posterity. The Son of God comes upon the scene from that time henceforth as our Redeemer. … It is the Savior who stands between mankind and our Heavenly Father. … The Son is the mediator between mankind and the Eternal Father. You seldom hear a prayer that isn’t offered to our Heavenly Father in the name of His Beloved Son, and that’s right. Christ came into this world to represent His Father. He came into this world to teach mankind who His Father is, why we should worship Him, how we should worship Him. He performed the greatest work that was ever performed in this mortal world by the shedding of His blood, which paid a debt that mankind owes to the Eternal Father, and which debt we inherited after the Fall of Adam. They Opened the Door Adam did only what he had to do. He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something. One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation, with the result that children came into this world. … If she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world. So the commentators made a great mistake when they put in the Bible … “man’s shameful fall.†Well, that was what the Lord expected Adam to do, because that opened the door to mortality; and we came here into this mortal world to receive a training in mortality that we could not get anywhere else or in any other way. We came here into this world to partake of all the vicissitudes, to receive the lessons that we receive in mortality from or in a mortal world. And so we become subject to pain, to sickness. We are blessed for keeping the commandments of the Lord with all that He has given us, which, if we will follow and be true and faithful, will bring us back again into the presence of God our Eternal Father, as sons and daughters of God, entitled to the fulness of celestial glory. Privileged to Be Mortal That great blessing of celestial glory could never have come to us without a period of time in mortality, and so we came here in this mortal world. We are in school, the mortal school, to gain the experiences, the training, the joys, and the sufferings that we partake of, that we might be educated in all these things and be prepared, if we are faithful and true to the commandments of the Lord, to become sons and daughters of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ; and in His presence to go on to a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever, and perhaps through our faithfulness to have the opportunity of building worlds and peopling them. Brethren and sisters, let’s thank the Lord, when we pray, for Adam. If it hadn’t been for Adam, I wouldn’t be here; you wouldn’t be here; we would be waiting in the heavens as spirits pleading for somebody … to pass through a certain condition that brought upon us mortality. We are in the mortal life to get an experience, a training, that we couldn’t get any other way. And in order [for us] to become gods, it is necessary for us to know something about pain, about sickness, and about the other things that we partake of in this school of mortality. So don’t let us, brethren and sisters, complain about Adam and wish he hadn’t done something that he did. I want to thank him. I am glad to have the privilege of being here and going through mortality, and if I will be true and faithful to the covenants and obligations that are upon me as a member of the Church and in the kingdom of God, I may have the privilege of coming back into the presence of the Eternal Father; and that will come to you as it will to me, sons and daughters of God entitled to the fulness of celestial glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebereid Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 First – Thank you for asking LDS members what they believe rather than believing everything you read on the internet! I really appreciate that. I am an active LDS member. I am NOT a theologian. I will answer this to the best of my ability, but I’m sure there will be others who can answer it better. The quote from M. Russell Ballard is 100% doctrinal. We do believe that Adam and Eve could not procreate before the Fall. I do not know the reasons for that – though I’ve never heard it was because they could not “perceive each other’s nakedness†before. I always thought that their bodies pre-fall were somehow different, and unable to have children. But that is just my thought. The part he’s got completely wrong is “it is God who initiated the temptation.†I can see how the author came to this conclusion, but it is not at all how LDS people feel about the topic. God gave two commandments. Satan did the tempting. The two commandments couldn’t both be followed. But that is not uncommon in our lives today. We’re commanded to take care of our families. We’re commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy. “In it thou shalt not do any work†(from Exodus). Sometimes a parent has to choose to either work on the Sabbath, or not take care of his family. That is not God tempting man, but rather God giving man agency, and man needing to choose the better good. I had a few other examples in my head a minute ago – but I lost them. But if you think about it, we’re often asked to choose the better good. That does not mean God is tempting us to disobey one of his commands. Does that help clarify? Hopefully someone else will chime in with a better explanation. :iagree: I'm also active LDS. Again, with the *I'm not a theologian* disclaimer, I'd like to add that there was nothing inherently BAD about taking the fruit -- only in taking the fruit because God had said not to (just like working on Sunday is not inherently bad, but something God asked us not to do). I see Adam and Eve in a light similar to children: Think of crossing the street. I tell my 4 year old DO NOT CROSS THE STREET for a reason. If he chooses to cross the street, he is disobeying but there is nothing inherently wrong with crossing the street. There may be consequences to disobeying, though. So we don't see Adam and Eve as sinning -- but rather transgressing the plan of God, doing what he asked not to do for some reason. But remember the fruit of the tree is fruit of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17): they don't yet know good from evil, so how can they know fully WHY? (I don't personally know why it was as it was either.) On the other hand, we believe that before the fall, they DID partake from the tree of life, which let them live forever. After they took of the fruit, they were cast from the garden and God put cheribum before the tree of life so they would not live forever in their sin (Gen 3:22-24). So taking of the fruit did introduce death and sin (i.e., understanding of right and wrong) into the world, neither of which were there before hand. By casting them from the Garden, God blessed them by giving them the Savior as a way to be forgiven from sins (when they do make wrong choices, now that they know right from wrong thanks to taking the fruit of the tree). The serpent told a part truth: he told Eve she would know good from evil (true) but he said she would not die (lie!). The consequence of taking the fruit was no more Tree of Life (i.e., they would die). As a part of all this, I'd like to add that we do not believe in original sin: We believe that people will be punished for their own sins, not for Adam's transgression. In the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi Chapter 2 (particularly verses 22-26) help clarify the doctrine. Hope that helps! Again, I'm not a theologian so none of this (except the scriptures and words of the prophets) is official church policy. Rebecca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennsmile Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thank you for asking. Yes we believe "Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy." 2 Nephi 2:27. As I looked up stuff on LDS.org to answer you better, I realized that part of our knowledge and understanding comes from our latter day prophets and The Book of Mormon and The Pearl of Great Price. The writer was trying to explain our beliefs quoting scriptures familiar to all from the Bible. While I know he was trying to be helpful because we believe in more than the Bible sometimes our beliefs are expanded by our belief latter-day prophets, and additional scripture with compliments the bible. From LDS.org Commandments in the Garden The Lord gave Adam and Eve commandments in the Garden of Eden, two of which were to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28) and to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Gen. 2:17). These two commandments were designed to place Adam and Eve in a position where they had to make a choice. President Smith taught: “The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.†4 Faced with this dilemma, Adam and Eve chose death—both physical and spiritual—which opened the door for themselves and their posterity to gain knowledge and experience and to participate in the Father’s plan of happiness leading to eternal life. Here is a link to the whole article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Another non-theologian LDS person here. MamaSheep, where are you? :) Yes, the quotation from Elder Ballard is doctrinal, though the commentary by Bywater is not. We do not see it that way. Now, Bywater objects that the Bible account doesn't say those things, but in the LDS Church we believe in ongoing revelation from God; the heavens are not closed and we do not believe that the Bible is the only scripture God will ever give us. The Book of Moses gives us another account of the Creation and Fall (you can see that chapters 3-5 are the most relevant). In addition, prophets have gained greater understanding of the Fall through revelation. We believe that before the Fall, Adam and Eve were not yet quite mortal; they needed to make that choice to accept mortality and death. So (IIRC) they could not have children, physically speaking, and they were also in a state of innocence and rather like children themselves. Like small children, they did not yet know good from evil. We do not know how long they lived in that state; it could have been a long time. Eve came to understand that they needed to know good from evil, to become mortal, and to undergo the difficulties and trials of mortal life in order to learn and progress, and so she made that choice. We honor her for it. The point here, as far as I know, is that Heavenly Father lets us choose. Adam and Eve had to choose to fall. To our eyes it looks like a bit of a setup, but so does the traditional version of the Adam and Eve story. IME the Fall is one of the more difficult doctrines to understand and wrap our heads around. I don't know anyone who claims to completely understand it, but I strongly believe that it is true. We have books on the subject of course, and a popular title is Eve and the Choice Made in Eden, which I have a copy of. I'll send it to you if you like, it's not a difficult read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) I looked at that post that you linked. He is saying that our beliefs are not Biblical, and therefore we are not Christian. We believe all that is in the Bible, as far as it is translated correctly, but we believe much of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not all contained in the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, is also a volume of scripture that contains God's word, and that it contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and further clarifies the Bible. In the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, it explains our belief concerning Adam and Eve clearly: 15 "And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. 16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. 17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. 18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. 19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. 20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." 2 Nephi 2:15-25 Edited June 12, 2012 by hmsmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Continued--because of our doctrine, we see the Fall very differently than mainstream Christians. 1. We do not blame Adam and Eve, but honor them as our first parents. Adam is the first prophet and Eve is our wise mother. 2. We do not believe in original sin; we are born fallen, yes, but innocent. We suffer for our own sins, but not for Adam and Eve's. 3. We do not believe that had they not partaken of the fruit, that we would all now be living in Paradise. For one thing they could not have children. Then, there's a question I've always had about this idea: wouldn't someone have eaten the fruit sooner or later? 4. The Fall was part of God's plan for His children from the beginning, not a monkey wrench in the works. A Savior for mankind--Jesus Christ--was already part of the plan from the very beginning, as was a difficult mortal life. Which leads me to the questions I've always had about the mainstream viewpoint. As far as I can tell, the usual view (at least how I've heard it here on WTM) is that the Fall was not how the plan was supposed to go, and the plan with a Savior to redeem us was put in place after Adam and Eve messed it up. But how can that be? How could God be thwarted like that? Why put that tree into Eden in the first place, if the whole purpose of the tree was to mess up the paradisiacal existence God had planned for all of humanity? I guess just as you are puzzled by our beliefs, I am puzzled by yours. :001_smile: Edited June 12, 2012 by dangermom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I posted without reading the Bywater article; I guess I was too impatient! :) This caught my eye: Mormon theology teaches that human beings first exist as spirit beings in a “preexistence.†They were born to God and one of his wives. (Yes, traditionally, Mormons have understood God to be a polygamist.) There are two errors in these sentences. One is minor and one is fairly major. 1. "Pre-existence" is not a word, despite the fact that we use it ourselves. ;) It comes from a colloquial shortening of the term "pre-mortal existence," which is a very important doctrine to us. But since clearly you can't exist before you existed, the 'pre-existence' term both obscures the meaning of the actual doctrine and forms something of an oxymoron. 2. We don't know anything at all about whether Heavenly Father is a polygamist, nor do we spend our time speculating about it. We do believe that we have a Heavenly Mother. This is a lot of why we are so big on marriage and family; they are not just part of life on earth, but part of the eternal pattern of the universe. We do not know a whole lot about our Heavenly Mother and we probably shy away from the topic too much, if anything--but speculation on the topic is IME not a good idea. So I can quite see why those doctrines are quite shocking to a non-LDS Christian; but they are probably shocking enough without Mr. Bywater misunderstanding them. Nor do they make us non-Christian; they make us different, but they don't contradict our belief in Jesus Christ the Savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a question for our LDS members. Why is it that if gaining the ability to discern good from evil (and thereby becoming more like the divine) is something for which humankind should be "thankful" on multiple levels (including becoming moral beings rather than eternal children, and for the procreative powers that makes our own mortal existence possible, etc.) then why use the term "The Fall" to refer to this act? It has me curious. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The commentary on the talk by Elder Ballard is not accurate. Here is another article explaining our doctrine: http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/01/the-choice-that-began-mortality?lang=eng We do not believe that Adam and Eve in any way "thwarted" God's plans. We don't even believe that's possible. God knows everything...he knew what Adam and Eve would do, that wasn't a surprise to Him. The tree was placed in the garden so that man could be. Adam and Eve could have continued to live in the garden, but they would not have grown, they would have remained in childlike innocence their entire lives. We believe we are here on earth to be tested, to "prove" our faith, to come to know and accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and to believe in His sacrifice and Atonement for all mankind, knowing that He is our salvation and our way back to heaven. Here is another quote from Mormon.org: "You may know the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but did you know it was they who paved the way for the rest of us to come to earth, make choices, and become like our Heavenly Father? As God’s first children on earth, Adam and Eve were living in their garden paradise. They didn’t feel any sorrow or pain, which might seem nice, except that without it, they also couldn’t feel joy. They didn’t remember their pre-earth life. If they hadn’t eaten the forbidden fruit, they would have lived like that forever and never had children. Mankind never would have been born or the world populated. As we know, Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan’s temptations to eat the fruit and disobeyed God who had commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As a consequence, they were separated from God’s presence physically and spiritually—an event we refer to as the Fall. They became mortal—just as we are—subject to sin, disease, all types of suffering, and ultimately death. But it wasn’t all bad because they could now feel great joy. “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.†(2 Nephi 2:25) But as they were obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ Adam and Eve were able to receive God’s inspiration, revelation, and even visits from heavenly messengers. Once out of the garden, they were able to progress and learn to become more like our Heavenly Father. In addition, they could have children, which meant the rest of God’s spirit children (all of us) could come to Earth, experience physical bodies, and be proven by our daily choices. Just like Adam and Eve, there are consequences to all our choices, good or bad. Lasting happiness and progression come from choosing to do what God wants us to do. The key word is “choosing.†Generally God does not step in and prevent us from making the poor choices Satan tempts us to make. He will, however, offer his love, divine guidance, and warnings when we open our heart to Him." Feel free to ask questions and we'll all do our best to answer them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofkhm Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thanks Ladies! I was hoping this would stay informative and it has! So if I'm understanding it correctly, the doctrine that Ballard puts forth is correct to your beliefs but the interpretation put forth by Bywater is not. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usetoschool Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Everyone else has more than adequately answered your question but I just wanted to add a few comments about the article. He refers to Romans 5:12 as indicating Adam sinned - the LDS Church teaches that Adam did not sin but simply transgressed a rule, much like the crossing the street analogy mentioned above. Here is the full scripture and the ones following: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. It says sin entered into the world because of Adam, in verse 12, not that Adam sinned and then in 14 refers to what Adam did as a transgression. Adam had a choice to live a higher principle, and the one we would say is central to the plan, what Heavenly Father's plan is all about - mortal bodies and families - or to keep a rule. Adam and Eve chose the break the rule to fulfill the purpose of mortal life. The Fall was not a surprise and Jesus Christ was the first born and our Savior from the very beginning. It was always part of the plan, not a hastily implemented fix. This quote kind of bugs me - In the meantime, one important truth must be grasped as we ponder the relationship between Mormonism and the Christian faith: Mormons use our vocabulary but not our dictionary. Keeping this first principle in mind will aid you in seeing through the Christian veneer of Mormonism. We don't agree on the meaning of the words but, like the OP and the conversation here (most of the conversations here!) we could try to understand each other's definition instead of bashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a question for our LDS members. Why is it that if gaining the ability to discern good from evil (and thereby becoming more like the divine) is something for which humankind should be "thankful" on multiple levels (including becoming moral beings rather than eternal children, and for the procreative powers that makes our own mortal existence possible, etc.) then why use the term "The Fall" to refer to this act? It has me curious. Bill Good question! I have two possible answers. It's been the traditional term for a long time anyway; we were already in the habit. More doctrinally, even though mortality is a necessary step in our progression, and something to be thankful for---it's still a fall. We went from living in Heaven, with God, to living on Earth, which is beautiful (probably not as beautiful as Heaven) but difficult. We got bodies, yay!, but our bodies are imperfect and subject to illness and death. We are subject to lots of temptation and we sin all the time; as we are, we are unable to be in the presence of God. All this is necessary for our growth and for our joy, but it's not always all that fun. Perhaps mortal life is a bit like boot camp! So the Fall is a step in the right direction, but we have to go down before we can go up, too. Metaphorically speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usetoschool Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a question for our LDS members. Why is it that if gaining the ability to discern good from evil (and thereby becoming more like the divine) is something for which humankind should be "thankful" on multiple levels (including becoming moral beings rather than eternal children, and for the procreative powers that makes our own mortal existence possible, etc.) then why use the term "The Fall" to refer to this act? It has me curious. Bill Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence and not fully mortal so when they chose to become mortal and sin and death entered the world they "fell" from this state to a world of pain and suffering and choices between good and evil. More than just Adam and Eve fell - the world became a fallen and sinful place - falling further away from our Heavenly Father so we would have to seek for Him and learn to choose Him without His presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Good question! I have two possible answers. It's been the traditional term for a long time anyway; we were already in the habit. More doctrinally, even though mortality is a necessary step in our progression, and something to be thankful for---it's still a fall. We went from living in Heaven, with God, to living on Earth, which is beautiful (probably not as beautiful as Heaven) but difficult. We got bodies, yay!, but our bodies are imperfect and subject to illness and death. We are subject to lots of temptation and we sin all the time; as we are, we are unable to be in the presence of God. All this is necessary for our growth and for our joy, but it's not always all that fun. Perhaps mortal life is a bit like boot camp! So the Fall is a step in the right direction, but we have to go down before we can go up, too. Metaphorically speaking. I agree with dangermom and jcooperetc; also, I think this is another case of Mormons putting a different spin on a traditional Christian term as we've done so often. I'm not necessarily sure we would have used "The Fall" if it hadn't already been in place before. Another term might explain our doctrine better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a question for our LDS members. Why is it that if gaining the ability to discern good from evil (and thereby becoming more like the divine) is something for which humankind should be "thankful" on multiple levels (including becoming moral beings rather than eternal children, and for the procreative powers that makes our own mortal existence possible, etc.) then why use the term "The Fall" to refer to this act? It has me curious. Bill Well, let me see if I can answer some of this. It's really early, and I don't have coffee to help me along. ;) :lol: We believe that "the glory of God is intelligence" and that knowledge is the one thing we can take with us from this earth life to the next. We believe that we progress as we leave this life and that all that we can learn will help us in the next. Our view of life after death is very different from that of mainstream Christianity. We view our earth life as merely as stopping point on a long continuum that is the Lord's plan. So, starting with that, here is part of a talk from our church president, Thomas Monson, given in April: "In our times of deepest reflection or greatest need, the soul of man reaches heavenward, seeking a divine response to life’s greatest questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after we leave this life? Answers to these questions are not discovered within the covers of academia’s textbooks or by checking the Internet. These questions transcend mortality. They embrace eternity. Where did we come from? This query is inevitably thought, if not spoken, by every human being. The Apostle Paul told the Athenians on Mars’ Hill that “we are the offspring of God.â€2 Since we know that our physical bodies are the offspring of our mortal parents, we must probe for the meaning of Paul’s statement. The Lord has declared that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man.â€3 Thus it is the spirit which is the offspring of God. The writer of Hebrews refers to Him as “the Father of spirits.â€4 The spirits of all men are literally His “begotten sons and daughters.â€5 We note that inspired poets have, for our contemplation of this subject, written moving messages and recorded transcendent thoughts. William Wordsworth penned the truth: Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The soul that rises with us, our life’s Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar: Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory do we come From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy! 6 Parents ponder their responsibility to teach, to inspire, and to provide guidance, direction, and example. And while parents ponder, children—and particularly youth—ask the penetrating question, why are we here? Usually it is spoken silently to the soul and phrased, why am I here? How grateful we should be that a wise Creator fashioned an earth and placed us here, with a veil of forgetfulness of our previous existence so that we might experience a time of testing, an opportunity to prove ourselves in order to qualify for all that God has prepared for us to receive. Clearly, one primary purpose of our existence upon the earth is to obtain a body of flesh and bones. We have also been given the gift of agency. In a thousand ways we are privileged to choose for ourselves. Here we learn from the hard taskmaster of experience. We discern between good and evil. We differentiate as to the bitter and the sweet. We discover that there are consequences attached to our actions. By obedience to God’s commandments, we can qualify for that “house†spoken of by Jesus when He declared: “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you … that where I am, there ye may be also.â€7 Although we come into mortality “trailing clouds of glory,†life moves relentlessly forward. Youth follows childhood, and maturity comes ever so imperceptibly. From experience we learn the need to reach heavenward for assistance as we make our way along life’s pathway. God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, our Lord, have marked the way to perfection. They beckon us to follow eternal verities and to become perfect, as They are perfect.8 The Apostle Paul likened life to a race. To the Hebrews he urged, “Let us lay aside … the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.â€9 In our zeal, let us not overlook the sage counsel from Ecclesiastes: “The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong.â€10 Actually, the prize belongs to him or her who endures to the end. When I reflect on the race of life, I remember another type of race, even from childhood days. My friends and I would take pocketknives in hand and, from the soft wood of a willow tree, fashion small toy boats. With a triangular-shaped cotton sail in place, each would launch his crude craft in the race down the relatively turbulent waters of Utah’s Provo River. We would run along the river’s bank and watch the tiny vessels sometimes bobbing violently in the swift current and at other times sailing serenely as the water deepened. During a particular race we noted that one boat led all the rest toward the appointed finish line. Suddenly, the current carried it too close to a large whirlpool, and the boat heaved to its side and capsized. Around and around it was carried, unable to make its way back into the main current. At last it came to an uneasy rest amid the flotsam and jetsam that surrounded it, held fast by the tentacles of the grasping green moss. The toy boats of childhood had no keel for stability, no rudder to provide direction, and no source of power. Inevitably, their destination was downstream—the path of least resistance. Unlike toy boats, we have been provided divine attributes to guide our journey. We enter mortality not to float with the moving currents of life but with the power to think, to reason, and to achieve. Our Heavenly Father did not launch us on our eternal voyage without providing the means whereby we could receive from Him guidance to ensure our safe return. I speak of prayer. I speak too of the whisperings from that still, small voice; and I do not overlook the holy scriptures, which contain the word of the Lord and the words of the prophets—provided to us to help us successfully cross the finish line. Continued in next post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 At some period in our mortal mission, there appears the faltering step, the wan smile, the pain of sickness—even the fading of summer, the approach of autumn, the chill of winter, and the experience we call death. Every thoughtful person has asked himself the question best phrased by Job of old: “If a man die, shall he live again?â€11 Try as we might to put the question out of our thoughts, it always returns. Death comes to all mankind. It comes to the aged as they walk on faltering feet. Its summons is heard by those who have scarcely reached midway in life’s journey. At times it hushes the laughter of little children. But what of an existence beyond death? Is death the end of all? Robert Blatchford, in his book God and My Neighbor, attacked with vigor accepted Christian beliefs such as God, Christ, prayer, and particularly immortality. He boldly asserted that death was the end of our existence and that no one could prove otherwise. Then a surprising thing happened. His wall of skepticism suddenly crumbled to dust. He was left exposed and undefended. Slowly he began to feel his way back to the faith he had ridiculed and abandoned. What had caused this profound change in his outlook? His wife died. With a broken heart he went into the room where lay all that was mortal of her. He looked again at the face he loved so well. Coming out, he said to a friend: “It is she, and yet it is not she. Everything is changed. Something that was there before is taken away. She is not the same. What can be gone if it be not the soul?†Later he wrote: “Death is not what some people imagine. It is only like going into another room. In that other room we shall find … the dear women and men and the sweet children we have loved and lost.â€12 My brothers and sisters, we know that death is not the end. This truth has been taught by living prophets throughout the ages. It is also found in our holy scriptures. In the Book of Mormon we read specific and comforting words: “Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.â€13 After the Savior was crucified and His body had lain in the tomb for three days, the spirit again entered. The stone was rolled away, and the resurrected Redeemer walked forth, clothed with an immortal body of flesh and bones. The answer to Job’s question, “If a man die, shall he live again?†came when Mary and others approached the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who spoke to them: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.â€14 As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.â€15 It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after this life? No longer need these universal questions remain unanswered. From the very depths of my soul and in all humility, I testify that those things of which I have spoken are true. Our Heavenly Father rejoices for those who keep His commandments. He is concerned also for the lost child, the tardy teenager, the wayward youth, the delinquent parent. Tenderly the Master speaks to these and indeed to all: “Come back. Come up. Come in. Come home. Come unto me.†In one week we will celebrate Easter. Our thoughts will turn to the Savior’s life, His death, and His Resurrection. As His special witness, I testify to you that He lives and that He awaits our triumphant return. That such a return will be ours, I pray humbly in His holy name—even Jesus Christ, our Savior and our Redeemer, amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Well, let me see if I can answer some of this. It's really early, and I don't have coffee to help me along. ;) :lol: I have a fresh-brewed pot right here that I'm willing to share, and I promise that if you take a little taste you won't die :tongue_smilie: Off to read the answers more carefully :001_smile: Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a fresh-brewed pot right here that I'm willing to share, and I promise that if you take a little taste you won't die :tongue_smilie: Bill I will though! Gaaaaak :svengo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The words "the fall" refer more to the state of the earth and mankind in general after Adam and Eve left the garden. Being removed from the presence of God, we need to make our way in the world on our own, without face to face guidance and direction. We need to use our own agency, make our own choices, decide for ourselves in which direction we want to go. However, as President Monson said, we are not rudderless. We have guidance, we have scripture, we have the Holy Ghost. We are not alone, but our choices are ours. The Lord does not interfere, but we do have to live with the consequences. We are always grateful for the divine attribute of procreation. As LDS people we are thankful to bring other children of our Heavenly Father to earth and into our families. We believe children are a gift from the Lord and take the responsibility to rear and nuture them seriously. We feel this can give us a tiny glimpse of our Heavenly Father's love for us as we know how much we love and will sacrifice for our own children. And as I said, knowledge, learning and intelligence are all good things. They are all gifts from God. We strive to learn, discover and know as much as we can while we're here, believing that we will put that knowledge to use...not only here, but in the hereafter. As LDS, we don't believe we will spend our time in heaven sitting on a cloud and playing a harp. :D (Not saying that any other faiths believe that either, just that it seems to be the cultural expression of what heaven is like in the mass media.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have a fresh-brewed pot right here that I'm willing to share, and I promise that if you take a little taste you won't die :tongue_smilie: Off to read the answers more carefully :001_smile: Bill :lol: :lol: You drink it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have not read all of the links/posts yet, but is it in the Book of Mormon where all of this extra information is, about Adam and Eve, why we are here on earth, etc? Is that all in the Book of Mormon? Is there a link you can share on how the Book of Mormon does or does not contradict Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) I have not read all of the links/posts yet, but is it in the Book of Mormon where all of this extra information is, about Adam and Eve, why we are here on earth, etc? Is that all in the Book of Mormon? Is there a link you can share on how the Book of Mormon does or does not contradict Scripture? If you read my first post, blessedwinter, you will see that I have linked to LDS scripture a little bit. The Book of Mormon does not contain an account of the Fall, but it does have quite a bit of doctrinal commentary on it. Then, we have modern revelation on the Fall as well. Various people disagree on whether and how much the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. LDS people think the two are complimentary--the BoM is another witness of truth that goes along with the Bible. Others disagree, but they don't necessarily agree with each other. I'll see what I can do for you. This page from the LDS Church gives a short list of links to scripture pertaining to the Fall. You can follow the links to the various scriptures; there are some from each of the four books of scripture that we use (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price). Edited June 12, 2012 by dangermom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have not read all of the links/posts yet, but is it in the Book of Mormon where all of this extra information is, about Adam and Eve, why we are here on earth, etc? Is that all in the Book of Mormon? Is there a link you can share on how the Book of Mormon does or does not contradict Scripture? It's from the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, mostly, in addition to other revelation. The Pearl of Great Price is largely a short collection of various books, authored by or revealed to Joseph Smith. Here's one of my favorite scriptures regarding this topic from chapter 5 of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price: 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. As for the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible, I suspect that's up to personal interpretation. I'm not sure exactly what sort of link you're looking for, but if you can be more specific, someone here might have a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmomNY Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Originally Posted by blessedwinter I have not read all of the links/posts yet, but is it in the Book of Mormon where all of this extra information is, about Adam and Eve, why we are here on earth, etc? Is that all in the Book of Mormon? Is there a link you can share on how the Book of Mormon does or does not contradict Scripture? A lot of doctrine about the fall and it's place in the great plan of happiness is found in the Book of Mormon, but some is found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as well as the Bible, mostly in the Old Testiment. As for a link about how the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible, try http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Well, let me see if I can answer some of this. It's really early, and I don't have coffee to help me along. ;) :lol: ....We view our earth life as merely as stopping point on a long continuum that is the Lord's plan. ... Very informative for not having had any coffee yet! :D I am wondering about the bolded above, maybe I should start a new thread if this is hijacking. Does this mean Mormons believe we have more lives after this one? If you read my first post, blessedwinter, you will see that I have linked to LDS scripture a little bit. The Book of Mormon does not contain an account of the Fall, but it does have quite a bit of doctrinal commentary on it. Then, we have modern revelation on the Fall as well. Various people disagree on whether and how much the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. LDS people think the two are complimentary--the BoM is another witness of truth that goes along with the Bible. Others disagree, but they don't necessarily agree with each other. I'll see what I can do for you. This page from the LDS Church gives a short list of links to scripture pertaining to the Fall. You can follow the links to the various scriptures; there are some from each of the four books of scripture that we use (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price). It's from the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, mostly, in addition to other revelation. The Pearl of Great Price is largely a short collection of various books, authored by or revealed to Joseph Smith. Here's one of my favorite scriptures regarding this topic from chapter 5 of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price: As for the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible, I suspect that's up to personal interpretation. I'm not sure exactly what sort of link you're looking for, but if you can be more specific, someone here might have a suggestion. Originally Posted by blessedwinter I have not read all of the links/posts yet, but is it in the Book of Mormon where all of this extra information is, about Adam and Eve, why we are here on earth, etc? Is that all in the Book of Mormon? Is there a link you can share on how the Book of Mormon does or does not contradict Scripture? A lot of doctrine about the fall and it's place in the great plan of happiness is found in the Book of Mormon, but some is found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as well as the Bible, mostly in the Old Testiment. As for a link about how the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible, try http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/ Thank you for the information! :001_smile: I will check out the links now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 At some period in our mortal mission, there appears the faltering step, the wan smile, the pain of sickness—even the fading of summer, the approach of autumn, the chill of winter, and the experience we call death. Every thoughtful person has asked himself the question best phrased by Job of old: “If a man die, shall he live again?â€11 Try as we might to put the question out of our thoughts, it always returns. Death comes to all mankind. It comes to the aged as they walk on faltering feet. Its summons is heard by those who have scarcely reached midway in life’s journey. At times it hushes the laughter of little children. But what of an existence beyond death? Is death the end of all? Robert Blatchford, in his book God and My Neighbor, attacked with vigor accepted Christian beliefs such as God, Christ, prayer, and particularly immortality. He boldly asserted that death was the end of our existence and that no one could prove otherwise. Then a surprising thing happened. His wall of skepticism suddenly crumbled to dust. He was left exposed and undefended. Slowly he began to feel his way back to the faith he had ridiculed and abandoned. What had caused this profound change in his outlook? His wife died. With a broken heart he went into the room where lay all that was mortal of her. He looked again at the face he loved so well. Coming out, he said to a friend: “It is she, and yet it is not she. Everything is changed. Something that was there before is taken away. She is not the same. What can be gone if it be not the soul?†Later he wrote: “Death is not what some people imagine. It is only like going into another room. In that other room we shall find … the dear women and men and the sweet children we have loved and lost.â€12 My brothers and sisters, we know that death is not the end. This truth has been taught by living prophets throughout the ages. It is also found in our holy scriptures. In the Book of Mormon we read specific and comforting words: “Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.â€13 After the Savior was crucified and His body had lain in the tomb for three days, the spirit again entered. The stone was rolled away, and the resurrected Redeemer walked forth, clothed with an immortal body of flesh and bones. The answer to Job’s question, “If a man die, shall he live again?†came when Mary and others approached the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who spoke to them: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.â€14 As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.â€15 It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after this life? No longer need these universal questions remain unanswered. From the very depths of my soul and in all humility, I testify that those things of which I have spoken are true. Our Heavenly Father rejoices for those who keep His commandments. He is concerned also for the lost child, the tardy teenager, the wayward youth, the delinquent parent. Tenderly the Master speaks to these and indeed to all: “Come back. Come up. Come in. Come home. Come unto me.†In one week we will celebrate Easter. Our thoughts will turn to the Savior’s life, His death, and His Resurrection. As His special witness, I testify to you that He lives and that He awaits our triumphant return. That such a return will be ours, I pray humbly in His holy name—even Jesus Christ, our Savior and our Redeemer, amen. This question if for the bolded. Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them. If this is truly what you believe, why waste your life worshiping someone who will be your equal someday. Since you believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos. I'm truly trying to understand how the mormons think. As a Catholic, we believe (and know;)) that there is only ONE, true God. Who exists in three persons. We are nothing, and will continue to be nothing in comparison to God. We are children of God, and like human children are not equal to God in any way. Just as our children are not equal to us, their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 This question if for the bolded. Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them. Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Very informative for not having had any coffee yet! :D I am wondering about the bolded above, maybe I should start a new thread if this is hijacking. Does this mean Mormons believe we have more lives after this one? Thank you for the information! :001_smile: I will check out the links now. No, it means that we've lived before (pre-mortal life in the presence of God), are living now (mortal existence, with physical bodies, separated from God but with the blessing of His Holy Spirit to guide us), and will live after (Eternal life in God's presence, in resurrected, glorified physical bodies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 No, it means that we've lived before (pre-mortal life in the presence of God), are living now (mortal existence, with physical bodies, separated from God but with the blessing of His Holy Spirit to guide us), and will live after (Eternal life in God's presence, in resurrected, glorified physical bodies). So our full reward comes after this life? Or do we have to keep trying? What is the big significance of this earthly life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 So our full reward comes after this life? Or do we have to keep trying? What is the big significance of this earthly life? Mortal life is where we gain physical bodies, it's where we learn to recognize good from evil (which can only happen away from the presence of God, because no evil can exist in His presence), it's also where we choose whether to FOLLOW Good or Evil, which will determine our ultimate Eternal reward. It's a testing period. ETA: There's no other "testing period" after this one. There will be a Final Judgement, as described in the Bible, and then we go on to our reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) This question if for the bolded. Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them. If this is truly what you believe, why waste your life worshiping someone who will be your equal someday. Since you believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos. I'm truly trying to understand how the mormons think. As a Catholic, we believe (and know;)) that there is only ONE, true God. Who exists in three persons. We are nothing, and will continue to be nothing in comparison to God. We are children of God, and like human children are not equal to God in any way. Just as our children are not equal to us, their parents. Wow, that seems unnecessarily antagonistic. I think most of the participants here would prefer to keep things civil. Our God is God, creator of the universe and of us, His children. He is the Father of our spirits and we worship Him. He gave us our Savior; without God and Christ and the Holy Spirit we could do nothing. Someday, very far in the future, after we learn a lot, we hope to 'grow up' to be like Him, but there is no guarantee; we can choose not to do that too. You yourself bring out the comparison in your last sentence. Someday your kids will grow up, and hopefully, will be adults and parents too. Will that make you no longer their beloved parents? Should they have wasted their lives listening to you and loving you, since they were going to grow up anyway? This is just very quick, but I'm not inclined to try to explain deeply-cherished beliefs if you're going to be rude about it. I have a lot of respect for Catholic beliefs and would never say they are wasting their time. Edited June 12, 2012 by dangermom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 So our full reward comes after this life? Or do we have to keep trying? What is the big significance of this earthly life? To gain a body, to be tested, to grow in knowledge of right and wrong, to make the choices that will lead us back to our Heavenly Father, to know and have faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, to experience good and evil, to serve others and to become more Christlike. Through our earthly experiences and life, we become more of who our Father in Heaven wants us to become. We learn empathy, we sacrifice, we experience pain so that we can know true joy, we serve and give, we learn selflessness, we experience defeat so that we can have victory. And in the end, we are welcomed into the arms of our Savior who can then say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmomNY Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I will be honest I don't understand the catholic view of God. The idea of one God in three persons is difficult for me to understand. So that being said I will try to help you understand the LDS/ my view of God. The Church's first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.†These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven. The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior's mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22). Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation. God the Father God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's†(D&C 130:22). The Father of Our Spirits One of life's great questions is “Who am I?†A beloved Primary song helps even little children answer this question. We sing, “I am a child of God, and he has sent me here.†The knowledge that we are children of God provides strength, comfort, and hope. We are all literally children of God, spiritually begotten in the premortal life. As His children, we can be assured that we have divine, eternal potential and that He will help us in our sincere efforts to reach that potential. JESUS CHRIST Who is Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever. The HOLY GHOST The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter. Roles of the Holy Ghost The Holy Ghost works in perfect unity with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, fulfilling several roles to help us live righteously and receive the blessings of the gospel. He “witnesses of the Father and the Son†(2 Nephi 31:18) and reveals and teaches “the truth of all things†(Moroni 10:5). We can receive a sure testimony of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ only by the power of the Holy Ghost. His communication to our spirit carries far more certainty than any communication we can receive through our natural senses. As we strive to stay on the path that leads to eternal life, the Holy Ghost can guide us in our decisions and protect us from physical and spiritual danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 This question if for the bolded. Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them. If this is truly what you believe, why waste your life worshiping someone who will be your equal someday. Since you believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos. I'm truly trying to understand how the mormons think. As a Catholic, we believe (and know;)) that there is only ONE, true God. Who exists in three persons. We are nothing, and will continue to be nothing in comparison to God. We are children of God, and like human children are not equal to God in any way. Just as our children are not equal to us, their parents. Becoming gods and goddesses is not something we talk about or teach at church. I have never been asked if I believe that as a condition of being baptized, or going to the temple, or being any sort of good Mormon. It is not something Mormons have to believe. However, many Mormons do believe that, but beyond a general goal to become like God, it's really not any clearer than that. I don't get the impression that Mormons are aspiring for planets full of people worshiping them. Also, I do not believe I could ever be equal to God. He is in no way a limited, finite being. Overall, I don't think many, if any, Mormons view God the way you seem to think we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 No, it means that we've lived before (pre-mortal life in the presence of God), are living now (mortal existence, with physical bodies, separated from God but with the blessing of His Holy Spirit to guide us), and will live after (Eternal life in God's presence, in resurrected, glorified physical bodies). A question about this. Do Latter Day Saints believe the period of "pre-mortal existence" ended for all with "The Fall" or do those yet unborn to mortal-physical bodies still live a pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And, if not, what is the condition of pre-morals as they wait physical-mortal birth? Bill (who feels the coffee starting to click in :tongue_smilie:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 This question if for the bolded. Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them. If this is truly what you believe, why waste your life worshiping someone who will be your equal someday. Since you believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos. I'm truly trying to understand how the mormons think. As a Catholic, we believe (and know;)) that there is only ONE, true God. Who exists in three persons. We are nothing, and will continue to be nothing in comparison to God. We are children of God, and like human children are not equal to God in any way. Just as our children are not equal to us, their parents. Well, you don't have it quite right. We don't believe we're going to have "planets full of people worshipping us". :lol: We also don't believe God is our equal, nor will He ever be our equal. Nor is your last sentence in your first paragraph correct. I suspect you are getting your information from anti-Mormon websites, and truly they have it all wrong. As for what Catholics believe, I have that down. I'm a former Catholic who attended 12 years of Catholic school. ;) I joined the LDS church at age 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Becoming gods and goddesses is not something we talk about or teach at church. I have never been asked if I believe that as a condition of being baptized, or going to the temple, or being any sort of good Mormon. It is not something Mormons have to believe. However, many Mormons do believe that, but beyond a general goal to become like God, it's really not any clearer than that. I don't get the impression that Mormons are aspiring for planets full of people worshiping them. Also, I do not believe I could ever be equal to God. He is in no way a limited, finite being. Overall, I don't think many, if any, Mormons view God the way you seem to think we do. The Mormon view (or not?) of becoming gods and goddesses with planets is something my parents always brought up to completely discount Mormonism. So I am interested to understand if this really is taught anywhere? Where are Mormons coming up with this if it is not taught or talked about anywhere? (hoping I don't sound condescending, I really am interested to learn :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 A question about this. Do Latter Day Saints believe the period of "pre-mortal existence" ended for all with "The Fall" or do those yet unborn to mortal-physical bodies still live a pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And, if not, what is the condition of pre-morals as they wait physical-mortal birth? Bill (who feels the coffee starting to click in :tongue_smilie:) The pre-mortal existence is the time before you come to earth and are born with a mortal body. So those yet unborn are still in that state. We don't really have particulars about that time, except that we lived with God. There's plenty of folklore though. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 A question about this. Do Latter Day Saints believe the period of "pre-mortal existence" ended for all with "The Fall" or do those yet unborn to mortal-physical bodies still live a pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And, if not, what is the condition of pre-morals as they wait physical-mortal birth? Bill (who feels the coffee starting to click in :tongue_smilie:) Yes to the bolded. We live in the presence of God until we get born. Those yet unborn live as spirits with God, in a state of innocence--which is very nice, but limited. In order to keep learning and growing, we need to gain bodies and learn to deal with difficulty and being away from God. Maybe like going to college, away from the constant supervision of your parents. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 A question about this. Do Latter Day Saints believe the period of "pre-mortal existence" ended for all with "The Fall" or do those yet unborn to mortal-physical bodies still live a pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And, if not, what is the condition of pre-morals as they wait physical-mortal birth? Bill (who feels the coffee starting to click in :tongue_smilie:) The yet-to-be-born still live in the presence of God until the time when their souls enter their physical bodies (which we have no idea at which point that happens. Conception? birth? sometime in between? We dunno.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The Mormon view (or not?) of becoming gods and goddesses with planets is something my parents always brought up to completely discount Mormonism. So I am interested to understand if this really is taught anywhere? Where are Mormons coming up with this if it is not taught or talked about anywhere? (hoping I don't sound condescending, I really am interested to learn :) ) That's interesting, because from what I've heard, some early Church Fathers believed it; it's got a theological term I'm not remembering right now. C. S. Lewis said some things that sound very familiar to Mormons. I'm not being any help, but I'm also running out the door. Someone else will have to tackle this one.:001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The yet-to-be-born still live in the presence of God until the time when their souls enter their physical bodies (which we have no idea at which point that happens. Conception? birth? sometime in between? We dunno.) Oh. Yes. I didn't mean to imply that we don't enter a physical body until the exact moment of birth; I was being general. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 A question about this. Do Latter Day Saints believe the period of "pre-mortal existence" ended for all with "The Fall" or do those yet unborn to mortal-physical bodies still live a pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And, if not, what is the condition of pre-morals as they wait physical-mortal birth? Bill (who feels the coffee starting to click in :tongue_smilie:) Great question! You're really making us work this morning, aren't you? :D No, we do not believe pre-mortal existence ended with the Fall. We believe that every human being who comes to us begins his/her journey in spirit (soul) form with our Heavenly Father. We believe we are his children and we start our lives (that continuum thing) in heaven in His presence. We believe we spend that time learning, growing in knowledge and developing to the point that we are ready to leave. Much as a human child will spend time on earth doing the same thing with their earthly parents. Here is a talk by a leader of our church regarding the pre-existence. This is by Neal A. Maxwell (now deceased), and he can be quite deep. Well worth reading, but you might want to drink another cup before you start. ;) http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/premortality-a-glorious-reality?lang=eng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 At some period in our mortal mission, there appears the faltering step, the wan smile, the pain of sickness—even the fading of summer, the approach of autumn, the chill of winter, and the experience we call death. Every thoughtful person has asked himself the question best phrased by Job of old: “If a man die, shall he live again?â€11 Try as we might to put the question out of our thoughts, it always returns. Death comes to all mankind. It comes to the aged as they walk on faltering feet. Its summons is heard by those who have scarcely reached midway in life’s journey. At times it hushes the laughter of little children. But what of an existence beyond death? Is death the end of all? Robert Blatchford, in his book God and My Neighbor, attacked with vigor accepted Christian beliefs such as God, Christ, prayer, and particularly immortality. He boldly asserted that death was the end of our existence and that no one could prove otherwise. Then a surprising thing happened. His wall of skepticism suddenly crumbled to dust. He was left exposed and undefended. Slowly he began to feel his way back to the faith he had ridiculed and abandoned. What had caused this profound change in his outlook? His wife died. With a broken heart he went into the room where lay all that was mortal of her. He looked again at the face he loved so well. Coming out, he said to a friend: “It is she, and yet it is not she. Everything is changed. Something that was there before is taken away. She is not the same. What can be gone if it be not the soul?†Later he wrote: “Death is not what some people imagine. It is only like going into another room. In that other room we shall find … the dear women and men and the sweet children we have loved and lost.â€12 My brothers and sisters, we know that death is not the end. This truth has been taught by living prophets throughout the ages. It is also found in our holy scriptures. In the Book of Mormon we read specific and comforting words: “Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.â€13 After the Savior was crucified and His body had lain in the tomb for three days, the spirit again entered. The stone was rolled away, and the resurrected Redeemer walked forth, clothed with an immortal body of flesh and bones. The answer to Job’s question, “If a man die, shall he live again?†came when Mary and others approached the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who spoke to them: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.â€14 As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.â€15 It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after this life? No longer need these universal questions remain unanswered. From the very depths of my soul and in all humility, I testify that those things of which I have spoken are true. Our Heavenly Father rejoices for those who keep His commandments. He is concerned also for the lost child, the tardy teenager, the wayward youth, the delinquent parent. Tenderly the Master speaks to these and indeed to all: “Come back. Come up. Come in. Come home. Come unto me.†In one week we will celebrate Easter. Our thoughts will turn to the Savior’s life, His death, and His Resurrection. As His special witness, I testify to you that He lives and that He awaits our triumphant return. That such a return will be ours, I pray humbly in His holy name—even Jesus Christ, our Savior and our Redeemer, amen. Well, you don't have it quite right. We don't believe we're going to have "planets full of people worshipping us". :lol: We also don't believe God is our equal, nor will He ever be our equal. Nor is your last sentence in your first paragraph correct. I suspect you are getting your information from anti-Mormon websites, and truly they have it all wrong. As for what Catholics believe, I have that down. I'm a former Catholic who attended 12 years of Catholic school. ;) I joined the LDS church at age 19. You are correct. I have nothing but websites to go by when Googling. It is something I have read more than once though, so thought it was something that was widely taught. I am not versed in the Mormon faith, and truly mean to hostility. Just couldn't understand why I'd worship someone I felt equal to, which is how they made it sound. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The pre-mortal existence is the time before you come to earth and are born with a mortal body. So those yet unborn are still in that state. We don't really have particulars about that time, except that we lived with God. There's plenty of folklore though. ;) So is it fair to say that by tradition and folklore that the common LDS belief is that those awaiting a physical-mortal birth on earth spend their pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And that the pre-mortal relationship with the divine (as opposed to the mortal one) was not severed as a result of "The Fall"? Or am I missing something? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 So is it fair to say that by tradition and folklore that the common LDS belief is that those awaiting a physical-mortal birth on earth spend their pre-mortal existence in God's presence? And that the pre-mortal relationship with the divine (as opposed to the mortal one) was not severed as a result of "The Fall"? Or am I missing something? Bill No, you've about got it. :) It's when we enter mortal life that we leave His presence. Although to clarify something Diane said: Our *spirits* live with God in Heaven, our *Souls* are when our spirit and physical body combine. (and there's a scripture about that that's just on the tip of my tongue, I'll have to go look it up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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